#075: Dealing with Your Parents’ Divorce, Anger Toward Parents, Helping Your Kids Heal | Ask Restored #1

In this episode, we answer questions from listeners like you. Each question reveals a real life challenge faced by someone from a broken family. We offer answers and practical guidance.

The questions include:

• How do you deal with your parents divorce when it isn’t a clearly justifiable split?

• As divorced parents, how do we make up for all the mistakes we’ve made and help our kids heal?

• How do I openly talk about my parents divorce without hurting them in the way I view it?

• How do I build a better relationship with my dad when he isn’t emotionally there and has never talked to me about my parents separating/divorcing?

• How do I deal with my anger toward my parents?

Get your question answered on the podcast

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Adam Young: How to Write a Story

• Speaking

• Episode 57: How Alcoholism Broke My Family Apart | Kendra Posch

• Episode 75: Will I Always Feel Stuck? | Alexandra M

• Alexandra M

  • Facebook

  • Instagram

• Books

  • Anger: Taming a Powerful Emotion | Gary Chapman

  • The 5 Apology Languages | Gary Chapman

  • It's OK That You're Not OK | Megan Devine

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

In this episode, we answer questions from listeners. Like you, each question reveals a real life challenge faced by someone who comes from a broken family that they're dealing with right now, we offer some practical guidance and answers to those questions. The questions include how do you deal with your parents' divorce when it isn't a clearly justifiable split as divorced parents?

How do we make up for all the mistakes we've made and help our kids heal? How do I openly talk about my parents' divorce without hurting them in the way I view it? How do I build a better relationship with my dad when he isn't emotionally there and has never talked to me about my parents separating and divorcing, how do I deal with my anger towards my parents?

And so many other questions, lots of practical wisdom in this episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 75. I'm joined by two guests today to answer your questions. And by the way, if you wanna submit a question for my guests and I to answer on the show, you can do that by going to ReSTOR ministry.com/ask that's, ask ASSK and I'll remind you about that at the end of the show.

But my guests today are Alexandra and Kendra. Kendra posh was born and raised in Northern Minnesota, and now resides in Denver, Colorado. Her world was turned upside down in high school. When her parents divorced since then, she's been on a journey of hope and recovery one. She sees as a lifelong and worthy.

Kendra has a heart for the work that restore does and for true authentic relationships, Kendra shared her story in episode 57. So if you wanna check that out, feel free. And my other guess is Alexandria. Madrin originally from South Carolina. Alexandra has lived and worked in Denver, Colorado for the past six years after hearing about the ReSTOR podcast from her friend, Alexandra began working through the long term effects that her parents divorce left in her life.

Alexandra is enthusiastic about helping others to discover the freedom that comes through personal development and growth, and is an advocate of strong friendships with others who have experienced divorce and the practice of therapy to heal and grow. She has found that there is hope and goodness after one's parents' divorce and it all comes down to a personal choice to begin again, find healing and trust that your life will be one containing lasting love.

Now Alexandra shared her story in episode 61. So feel free to check that out as well. Again, lots of wisdom in this episode. So let's jump in

Alexandra, Kendra. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for, for making time to be here. Thanks for having us oh, I'm so excited for today. It'll be great. This is fun. It's great to be with you both. I admire you both as people, and I know you have a lot of wisdom, so I'm excited to give that to our audience.

The first question that we have is from an anonymous person. So. It's related to dealing with your parents' divorce and their apathy toward their marriage. Little bit of background. So the, um, person who submitted this said my parents decided to split last week. My mom has decided to split. She's the one who initiated it.

She can't fight for the marriage anymore. Uh, this person goes on to say, I don't understand how they can give up, especially believing what God says about marriage. I guess I don't fault my mom for trying, even though it's hard not to be angry at her for ending. , but I can't believe my dad can't even try to work on things to make our family work.

He goes on to say, I wish I could hope they will reconcile. But after a year of my mom, hoping for things to get better and they haven't, I don't want to have false hope, but I can't get how people who preach loving your wife, husband in a godly way, uh, can can't live it or even try. So this person obviously comes from a religious background.

So their specific question is kind of broken into two parts, which we can just answer in one, which is how do you deal with your parents' divorce when it isn't a clearly justifiable split. If that's even a thing, he says like an affair or clear right or wrong. And the second question is how can it end when parents don't seem to even try to change things and fight for their marriage and the whole family.

So a lot there, but what do you guys think? Who wants to jump in. I've said this before, but it's okay to not feel okay about it. It's okay to feel angry or hurt or sad, hopeless. All of those things let, let those emotions in don't don't tap tamp 'em down. And if you can find some good coping mechanisms to be able to deal with that, mm-hmm because you're witnessing something that is outside of your control, but it is doing so much to you into your day to day.

And if you, it affects you, it affects you. It, it totally does. It affects your siblings. It affects you wanting to protect your siblings. It affects you responding to a parent that wants you wanna be loving and helpful, but when they ask you to take out the trash, you wanna fight back and just say, but why you're doing this?

It doesn't make sense. Mm-hmm . And so I just would recommend that you allow yourself that freedom to have some compassion for yourself of this horrible time that you're in and this emotional strife. If you can, and you have a good support system and you can feel it. If you can try to have compassion for your parents, you do not know what hand they were dealt.

You don't know what they're dealing with. Right? Imagine a friend that is hurting and you don't know why they're doing what they're doing, but when they lash out and you know that they're hurting for a reason, you tend to be more forgiving. And I'm not saying again, so, so you can find those boundaries that you need so you can be present.

Totally. And so obviously we have a lot more grace to friends than we do to family, especially to something so traumatic as divorced when it's being done unto you. And you have no say in it, but there's so much, you probably don't know. And it's okay that you don't cuz you're the child and they're the parents.

Mm-hmm and that's, that's something that has taken me years to come to. It has. And so if you still don't feel it immediately, cuz this is so fresh and new that's okay. Hmm. Mm-hmm you, uh, what you were saying there made me think of just like grieving in general. So grieving as you guys know, is the process of really coming to accept a loss in your life.

Mm-hmm and it's not an easy thing, obviously, to go through any sort of grieving until let go of a person or this could, it could look like a breakup, it could look like a death, it could look like something even, you know, more minor than that. But your parents' divorce is definitely one of those things or separation, or maybe just a lot of dysfunction at home can all be kind of losses of, uh, some degree that you need to grieve that you need to come to accept.

But it's difficult to do that. It's not an easy thing to do. And so Kendra, like you said, giving yourself grace, giving yourself the ability to just kind of work through that at your own pace. You don't need to force it. You don't need to be on someone else's timeline. Um, I, I think that's, that's great advice.

Alexandra, did you have anything? I think that it's really important. To understand that you might not ever understand mm-hmm and you can search for answers your whole life. I mean, there are people out there who still, I mean, in their last days of their life and their, in like their sixties and they still don't understand at yeah.

At what point their parents made that decision and why. And I think it's really easy for others to say, well, just accept reality. You're never gonna know. And that might be true in some ways, but you don't, you don't need to just accept reality, but you, you might consider accepting that you might never know.

Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of freedom in accepting that you might never know. That's the only thing I might add. And, and also what you're not seeing might be years of their marriage from their point of view. And no matter what it is in life, if you haven't gone through it, not saying it's okay or not, but if you haven't gone through it, it's hard to understand.

Yeah, that's fair. So, so even if it seems quick, potentially of it's been a year, my mom's seeming like she's giving up after a year. It's like, we don't know how long these problems have been there with their marriage. Mm-hmm how much they've been, you know, trying different things. What, what have you, no, that, that's a great point.

And, uh, it's definitely. I, I think one thing too, cuz this person mentioned like the justifiable split thing. I think it's important to talk about that for a second. So if you guys mm-hmm will allow me I'll do that. So the first thing is divorce is not supposed to happen. It's not supposed to be this way.

I think most people would agree with that. Some people are much bigger proponents of divorce than others. Um, but there certainly are situations where some sort of separation is necessary because there's some sort of danger, maybe danger for your life. There's ongoing abuse. There's threats that are, you know, obviously are, are more than just like a spat or some sort of conflict.

Right? It's a serious thing. On the other hand there's situations where. Um, there's just more regular conflict that could potentially be re resolved, but it's not being resolved. So the way that researchers talk about this is there's high conflict marriages and divorces and low conflict marriages and divorces.

So again, high conflict being those situations where there needs to be some sort of separation because there's, uh, abuse, ongoing abuse, there's threat of life, dangers to the kids or to the spouse. Right? So in that situation, obviously we would say, you need to split. There needs to be some sort of distance with the hope that the marriage would come back together, be healed and the family would be whole against long road.

It is possible. It does happen. Sadly, it doesn't happen as often as it should, or as often as I'm sure all of us would like to see. So that's a high conflict situation. The low conflict situation is where, um, again, there's kind of these, what is often quoted in court cases at least is irreconcilable differences.

That's one of the most quoted reasons for getting a divorce. And in those situations, really the reality of it is that the spouses could stay married. They could work through their issues, but for one reason or not, they're just not able to do that. Or they're not willing to do that. This runs a gamut. So I don't wanna like characterize every single divorce that happens.

Like the same, it's the same, cuz it's not. But, um, in these situations, these can actually be the most traumatic and damaging on the children because there wasn't like the overt, constant conflict. There wasn't abuse. There wasn't that danger that was like in your face. And so to the child, it looks like you're going through life.

Things are fine. And then out of the blue. This divorce happened. So, uh, Paul Lamato, who's a sociologist at Penn state university. Uh, he's done some research saying that this type of divorce can actually be the most traumatic, the most damaging as opposed to a high conflict divorce. So with all that, just understand that what you're experiencing, what you're going through is not unusual.

You're not weird for feeling the way that you do. It makes sense, given what you've been through and what I understood from your question in the background that you wrote, this has been really shocking to you. And that makes sense, because this is a very real trauma and it deserves to be treated as such.

Tagging along with that, I just wanna say a couple things about your parents' marriage. It's not your job to fix it. It's their job to fix it. You're not meant to be their moral police. So even if you disagree with the reasons for them splitting, you're not meant to be the one to tell them they have to stay together.

Obviously I think most people know that, but for one reason or another, typically on a subconscious level, we feel like it's our responsibility to do that. So with that in mind, you can speak your mind. If you wanna say something to your mom or your dad saying like, Hey, I really. Wish you guys would work this out.

I hope you would work it out. They might not be aware of that. Cuz a lot of times what parents assume and what research shows is they falsely assume this in the majority of cases is that the kids feel the same way about their marriages that they do. That's just not true. Mm-hmm , that's not what the research says.

So I remember that people can change, but you can't change them. The best thing that you can do for them is to work on your own, uh, wholeness, your own healing, your own brokenness, becoming the best version of yourself. They're gonna see you thriving and they're gonna want what you have. And so, uh, I found that especially helpful when you're trying to influence another person just to focus on yourself and, and love them in the best way you can, of course, with all the appropriate boundaries.

Anything else you guys would add to any of that? Sorry for the long monologue. I wish I would've heard. When it seemed almost out of the blue that my parents started divorce. Um, it was just so quick and just everything turned on its head so quickly. And at 14 mm-hmm I couldn't keep up. I didn't know which it was up.

And I thought it was my problem to fix mm-hmm I thought it wasn't a good enough child. And so that's why there were so much right. There's a lot of lies that you begin to tell yourself, or you hear so much from others for, for whatever reason that you start to believe something. That's not reality.

Mm-hmm . And so I, I wish I had heard that. Yeah, no, I hear you. Me too seriously. Mm-hmm yeah. Ditto. I also just wanna tell you how sorry I am and it's gonna be a tough road ahead, and you probably know that, but just know you're not alone. There's a whole community out there and there's three people right here who are, who are for you.

Right now. So I'm really sorry, but you're not alone. And yeah, just hearing that is, is sometimes helpful. Absolutely. No, it's, it's more than helpful. It's like that could even be healing as weird as it might sound, just to know you that you're not alone. Cause we often feel so alone. One of you brought up empathy for your parents country.

You said that. And then Alexandra, you said something about just going through your life kind of, maybe not to this extent, but you, you touched on something related to wanting your parents to get back together or mm-hmm, kind of this whole thing being undone and never, maybe fully resolved throughout your life.

So on that second point in Alexandra's point, there's people yeah. Who go into their sixties or even to the end of their life who are just like holding onto this hope that your parents would get back together. And I think, I think that's a, a really good and beautiful hope. Um, it can be really difficult though to live with.

I remember, I think it was in primal loss, the book that tells the stories of, uh, 70 adult children of divorce, so, and loss, great book. um, there's a guy who said that, uh, when his, I think it was his dad died, the first thought that he had is like, well, now mom and dad will never get back together. So even on a subconscious level, again, we can go through life kind of holding onto this hope.

Um, so it's good to kind of recognize that. And when it comes to empathy, going back to Kendra's point, uh, you can ask one question which can be really helpful. It's been helpful for me, kind of understanding my parents and helping me love them is what trauma have they endured in their lives. People make so much more sense once you understand what they've been through.

And once you understand what they've been through, you're moved to some form of compassion. It doesn't excuse bad behavior. It should never do that. But it can help you understand them and love them and at least see things through their point of view. Again, not saying that what they did was right or everything's okay.

But at least you'll be able to, to understand 'em on a deeper level. So with that, we can be the second question, unless you guys have anything else that you would like to add? Uh, I still struggle with compassion. So I say that now , you know, like 12 years later. Yeah. Because, um, doing the work it's something I had to write down because I would get triggered.

I would just get mad. I would hear something else, years off the, the divorce about a memory here or this, or I would look at a, a memento and it would bubble back up and I would need to see that in writing of have compassion, have grace. And I just started asking, I didn't ask my mom explicitly. how were you traumatized?

It was more of tell me more about your childhood. What was your perception, perception of your parents? Like your dad died when you were young, you had a step dad. How did that go for you? Just to try to. Tease out some of those things now that I'm in a place to do so. Yeah. And to ask those questions and potentially, you know, pull by that curtain of what I thought was an idyllic childhood, right?

Yeah. And because everyone has skeletons in their closet, no family is perfect, no matter what they seem, but each and our, um, each and every one of us has such a unique and individual childhood that could have potential traumas that might not be there for someone else. Right. Yeah. Um, so asking those questions, if you feel you're in a place to do so, that's really good.

Mm-hmm I remember, um, creating a timeline of like a family, just kind of understanding like the different events that happened. And I remember learning, I never knew about this. I was talking to one of my aunts and I won't say which grandmother, but one of my grandmothers was in a plane that caught on fire.

Like one of the engines caught on fire and that was like very traumatic for her. Which then went on to affect like her everyday life. So even learning those things about your grandparents and just the whole family line can actually shed a lot of light. A lot of people who come on this show, they say things like, you know, their parents were also children of divorce.

So they also came from broken families. And then as we kind of understand more about ourselves and how that experience affects us, we're able to understand them better. So, second question is from Barbara and Joe it's. The topic is related to helping your children heal from your divorce and loving them in spite of the mistakes you've made as a parent.

So little bit of background. This is Barbara writing. She said, my husband and I, um, it's their second marriage. They've been together 20 years. So both of them were divorced, got married. Um, and then they've been together for 20 years. Um, my husband and I have four children who are children of divorce. Your podcast have, uh, has been incredible for us to listen to our children, have a range of issue.

Uh, with a range of intensity. Um, it is so helpful to put words to what we are experiencing in our relationships with them. We know that educating ourselves is a start. We hear what you are saying to be normal and take a little at a time. But sometimes it is so hard and we just don't know what to do so many questions.

So their questions, I broke 'em into three. They said, you know, besides educating ourselves, what can we do? How can we help them? How do we love. Uh, second is how do we make up for the mistakes that we've made? And then third is how do we nurture our relationship with our children? Um, Alexandra, do you have any thoughts on, on those questions?

Yeah, I think there's two that really stood out to me. And, and first and foremost, I mean, kudos to you for even asking these questions, because this is very, um, I mean, humbling and, um, rare too. Yeah. And very rare. And so I just first and foremost, you know, thank you for caring, um, about this because, uh, a lot of, a lot of parents who have children who have experienced this, they're not asking these questions.

So first and foremost, thank you. I wanna first, um, kind of shed some light or, um, kind of feedback on how can we help or how can we make up for our mistakes. Unfortunately, you can't. In my opinion. I think, I think you can't make up for them, but you can definitely help your children through what the repercussions have been.

Sometimes I think it's it's really with anything you really, you wanna make up for it. I think, yeah. I just wanna be very Frank it's. Yeah. It's kind of that, that deed that can't be ended. Um, but I also think that, um, to, to help them forward, how do inertia, our, our relationship with our children. I think you gotta be a 10 star listener.

You gotta really listen to your children and listen to how they're feeling and actually listen to them. And maybe you already are, but what are they telling you? They need ask, what, what do you need from me right now? I know I can't make up for this, but what do you need from me? And how can I best help you through this?

I know this has been really difficult for you, um, but how can I help you through this? And. , you know, what do, what do you need from me now that you didn't get then? And then also just, yeah. Listening, but also being there for them. I think that's the suggestions that I have. Yeah. Um, but thank you so much for, for caring and asking, cuz I, I think your children really will appreciate this.

Those are great points, especially how you can undo your mistakes. It'll be nice. Wouldn't it? Mm-hmm like an undue button for life you wish. Yeah. Mm-hmm but no, I think that's good. Like, and, and within your, um, answer, which so much wisdom in it, there's a couple things I baked into if it's okay. I wanna kind of extrapolate those out one.

Is that, um, Kind of owning up to the fact that you've made mistakes and that there are consequences of those and Barb and Joe. Definitely. I know them personally actually. And they're like incredible. Mm-hmm, , they're such an example to me of what I think all parents who have gone through a divorce or difficult marriage, um, could strive for, should strive for, so just like taking ownership of those and like admitting like, Hey, this is my fault.

Cause so often what I've seen happen is when people make mistakes, they just make excuses or they blame other people for what they're going through. And certainly there could be a point to that other people had a hand in bringing it about, but it's a pretty fruitless, um, struggle to try to just cast blame.

Right. And again, I'm not saying like, if you're in a situation where someone like really hurt you, they should take ownership of really hurting you. Not saying that isn't the case, but in terms of like what you have the power to do, all you can do is like control. What's been done to you and how you react to it.

And so, um, and so I think, I think it's really good to like take ownership of those. And then, you know, like you said, help your kids deal with the repercussions. Um, you said, like being a great listener, that kind of presupposes that there there's an open channel of communication, which is what, what I've found.

And just talking with people who come from broken families is they're so often not good point in this case. There is. So you answered it perfectly, but just to everyone listening, who doesn't have that open channel of communication, that's one thing to start for and you can start in the smallest way. So we'll touch on a little bit later.

Um, but, but I would say, um, that's like really, really important kind of just like. Cracking the ice they're breaking the ice and just starting that conversation can be so hard. But once you, once you do that, it's gonna go so much better. And we can maybe throw in some advice for, for how to do that. And we'll get into that a little bit later, but Kendra, just wondering, or Alexandra, did you have anything to add to that after what I just said, Kendra?

No. Yeah, go ahead, Kendra. So many thoughts besides educating ourselves. What can we do that one really struck me. I think the first thing is, have you dealt with a trauma in your own life? Did you deal with the trauma from your dad's first marriages? Right? The best way is to lead by example. And if you see a lot of things happening, as you said, there's a whole range throughout your kids.

If you were dealing with your own stuff, that will have massive, massive waves, like in the pool of your family. And that in and of itself would also be a way to help them heal and to help love them. Hmm. I love that. You said how do we make up for the mistakes? Because I wish. My dad would admit he was wrong.

I wish he would own up to some of the hurt. And so even acknowledging them is helpful. Yes. There are so many repercussions that you cannot control and it is what it is. I would recommend, uh, similar to the five love languages. You have the five apology languages, and maybe you have done this, or you haven't, but even just coming forthright with each of your kids individually or in a group, whatever, you know, feels better for your family dynamic to just tell them I'm, I'm really sorry.

Like, and not just in a, oh, let me, you better Christmas president, or how can I help you here financially? Or what have you, but in, in a unique way to each of them, because they all have individual trauma from this. And so I also really liked that you acknowledged that there's a range of issues and a range of intensity.

Each person is dealing with this differently. I remember feeling weird that I seemed more impacted than a sister. Right. I have four sisters, whole range of emotions, right? Yeah. Um, and so. each of your children will need something different at different times, whether it's the apology talk that you might have, whether it's, um, help with a certain issue.

And to just recognize that encouraging that open communication of that listening that Alexandra said mm-hmm but also it's okay if they don't talk to you about this mm-hmm you just wanna make sure they're talking to someone mm-hmm so I'd really encourage actually to talk to someone outside of that family system, both peers, as well as potentially another mentor couple, right.

That they could go to. That's not in their same age range, because they need someone to vent to without feeling like they could potentially be hurting you during that process. Mm-hmm um, and so I would encourage them to do that. They may already be doing that, and it is not a replacement to a parent for you.

I wanna say that again. It is not a replacement parent. But they need a safe space to talk about issues that they are still struggling with. Right. It could be a therapist, it could be family, friends, it could be individual friends that you do not even know. And I would just, again, encourage that wholeheartedly.

So good. And, uh, about the five apology languages, is there some way that people can learn more about their, is there a resource on it? I'm not aware of it. You've told me a little bit about before, but I never knew there was like a book or something. It's revolutionized my relationships with my sisters.

We'll just say that. Boom, boom. I think it's actually by the same author. Okay. So let's link it in the show notes. Cool. All right. Sounds good. I'm sure if you guys Google to like five apology languages that come up, I'd imagine. So really good stuff. I like what you said about that. Not being them, not being the one that their children can fight in.

Cuz I, I think for a parent who's so eager to help. That might be a real desire and that makes sense, but I think that's really good. Um, apologizing. So one thing I would just add to that is. Uh, you can do that in person, which is ideal, or if maybe it's too intense and too difficult for you and for your children, you can do that through a letter.

Uh, an email is possible too, but I would say either a letter in person is ideal, a couple other quick pieces of advice that have worked for yeah. Other people is, uh, send them resources, useful resources. So, and when you do that, don't like hit him over the head with a book. That's probably not the bright choice you can, but depending on your relationship.

Um, and when I say that I I'm being a little facetious, I mean, like telling them like, Hey, you should read this book because most people don't read a book when you suggest it like that. But if you instead give 'em like little bite size pieces of that book or content like that, or even our content, um, then they might be more likely to do that.

Cause if you think of it, you know, typically I know the way I work and about you guys, but like, I need to be slowly exposed to, uh, something like whether it's a podcast or an author or book, there's a rare occasion where I'll hear a book and I'll be like, I'm totally reading that, but that's rare. so the slow influencing, I think works well.

A video, a podcast episode, an article, you know, a, a real, something like really short, I think can, can go a long way with kind of opening the door to, uh, someone like that to do anything. Yeah. If you have financial resources to help pay for counseling, sometimes as a young adult, it feels like something you want to do, but you feel financially strapped for whatever reason, that could be a potential way.

And also going Jo of what you said about that apology of having the letter. I actually might have appreciated that better than a conversation because I can digest on my own time or I can keep referring back to it. Mm-hmm it's memorialized. So kudo suit. That was a great suggestion. That's really good. I love that.

Yeah, absolutely. I also think I love that. You said how can we love them or how do we love them? I mean, you know, your children the best, so, you know, good point your children's really, I mean, I hope, you know, your children well enough to be able to, I'm not gonna assume that you're having these conversations with them.

Something that's helpful is to ask them questions. Maybe if they're, if they're ready, ask them questions about their childhood. I know that's something that was really helpful between my mom and I, so that I could be very honest with her and I didn't have to start the conversation randomly after going to therapy, you know, randomly going and be like, Hey, I just wanna talk on my childhood really quick.

If you ask them questions, if they're ready and maybe give them a little precursor, like, Hey, would you like to get coffee and just kind of talk about some stuff, nothing, nothing super deep, but would just love to, to love you in this way. And there's a couple questions I have for you that will really, I think, open up the conversation if they're ready.

and if you, the parent already. Yeah. And if you are the parent already, um, but you know, you're asking these questions, how do we love them better? This is just a suggestion. So, so yeah. Um, so if you're, you know, getting coffee with them, asking specific questions, like, you know, what were some things that we did well, raising you?

What were some things that, that we could have done better that, that I can, you know, help you with now? How do I love if you have grandchildren? I don't know if you do, but you're listening. Maybe, um, you have grandchildren asking, you know, how do we be examples for our grandchildren? With this history, because I think that's something that's really hard for children to.

I don't have any kids, but I know siblings to go to their parents and, and really hope that they're examples of marriage and, and raising kids. But it's hard when you have those wounds. So asking them just frankly, how do, how do I help you in being an example for the grandkids? So good. That could be a real struggle.

And we probably do another show about that altogether. But one thing that came to mind when you were talking to Alexandra is you can share regrets with your children too, without maybe divulging sensitive details, which I think are usually not helpful. You can even share like, you know, in your apology, you can say, I'm sorry for this, for this, for this be specific, that's super helpful.

Then just be like, Hey, I'm really sorry for everything that's happened. Like, you can start with that. That's fine. But then get into the specifics. Like, I'm sorry that, you know, we, weren't a good example about what a marriage is supposed to look like. I'm sorry. I wasn't able to really pay more attention to you as a child, which then I know affect you and affected you in this, this, in this way, the more specific you can be, the more I think recogniz and empathize someone will feel.

And I think that goes a long way in helping to rebuild that relationship. But one thing, when it comes to building a relationship, you, um, don't always, you don't just do it through these like heavy conversations, right? You have great experiences and other good conversations that are hopefully around like common ground.

Um, and we'll touch on that a little bit later. I have a request, please do not bash your ex. That is still their other parent. And I would say that that even if you might feel justified or all of those things, that is mm-hmm , you need your own system to talk about this outside of the family, right? It, it, I promise you, it does not help in building up a relationship between you and your child, because that's the hardest thing for me with my parents.

Um, as soon as it delves into someone else or cuz again, that's not owning up to it. It could be making an excuse for things. Yeah. Again, you need to be able to have compassion for yourself of what you were going through for that, for my own personal experience, it, every conversation has taken a downward turn and I leave even more hurt and mad.

Like everything gets compounded when my dad would bash my mom, it just mm-hmm it is never productive. Never. Yeah, that was so good. Mm-hmm there was one resource I wanted to mention too. That might be helpful for your kids. There's a psychotherapist called Megan, uh, divine and she, um, has a book called it's.

Okay. Not to be okay. And right. What Kendra said before. So, um, that could be really good, but in that. Book, and she has a great video that we can link in the show notes as well. Uh, she says like one of the best, uh, solutions, I guess, to helping someone who's in pain is actually not trying to solve their pain, but just being there with them in the midst of it.

And so it might be your temptation to kind of look at your kids' lives and see all the brokenness in whatever their relationships, their career, their academic pursuits, and try to like fix it as if you were like a, you know, a construction worker, but it it's, that's not how it works when it comes to people, right.

We're not like a, a broken building where we can just like patch something up super easily. Yeah. We really just need people to be with there, with us in the pain. And what research shows according to the psychotherapists is that's actually the most helpful and the most appealing experience we could have.

So just be there with them in the pain. Um, you can offer resources again, you can encourage them to go to counseling like Kendra mentioned, but the, the most powerful thing that you can do is just give them your presence often. Anything to add before we move. Great. The next question. We're gonna jump ahead a little bit here is, um, about from an anonymous person, talking about healing, your relationship with your parents and talking about the divorce.

So this is kind of switching roles from the parent to the child now. And, uh, there's three questions here. One, how do I openly talk about my parents' divorce without hurting them in the way I view it? Two, how do I stop avoiding the word divorce and be able to talk about it in three? How do I build a better relationship with my dad when he isn't emotionally available emotionally there and hasn't been, and, and hasn't talked to me about my parents separating and divorcing great questions.

Really good stuff. Do you wanna jump in Ken? It's scary talking to your parents about divorce. It is because. first. Do you feel safe enough to talk about it? That's that first question, right? If you're potentially avoiding the word divorce, maybe you're not there yet. And that's okay. The best way that I've noticed with my own parents has been using I statements not you did this, but I feel hurt when this happened or I was missed here.

I didn't feel seen those kinds of things. Um, because when you open that conversation, are you okay with them potentially not responding? Well, mm-hmm I thought I was in a position to talk to one of my parents about this and I brought it up and I was not ready for them to say, this is too much for me. I can't deal with this.

That really set me back in my healing experience, even though that wasn't their intention. Because they weren't ready to talk about it. And it's something that I've had to unpack more with my counselor, because that did a number on me across a lot of relationships. So I really wanna highlight, do you feel safe to talk about it and are you okay if it doesn't go well, if you are not, do not feel pressured to have that conversation, right?

Let it, let it have space, let it, let it breathe and do some work on it where you could at that point. So now if I brought up that conversation and my parent responded like that, I'm okay. Now I was not before mm-hmm um, and so there's been, been a drastic difference in that, so good. Mm-hmm yeah. So I'm gonna give you some bad, good news, and then I'm gonna give you some good news.

the bad news is that some parents will never want to talk about it and they'll never wanna acknowledge it. And they will just act like it never happened forever. This might be your reality. so just know that, but the good news is that you don't, maybe you don't know that yet. So one, it could maybe not be your reality and two, even if it is your reality, there's still a way forward.

And there's still a lot that can be done for you personally, even if you're not able to have those conversations. So one, I would say just first know that it might, you might never be able to have a mature conversation because some parents that are divorced who have kids are not mature enough to have a conversation, or they haven't done the work or they haven't, they're just not willing.

Mm-hmm so that is the case. Um, sometimes it's just, it's just not a reality for you, but in that case, if that is the case for you say you reach out or you kind of put a soft launch out there and you're like, is this something that we can maybe talk about when you're ready and I'm ready? I'm ready. Are you ready?

You know, and they say, no, just know that there's so much that you can do on your own. And there's also a lot of, a lot of freedom and forgiveness. There's a lot of freedom for you ahead and, and this podcast will help and the three of us will help and yeah. Um, there's still a positive for you. So I just want you to know that even if you're never able to say the word divorce, and even if you're not able to build a better relationship, which I hope with your father, that you are, there's still hope because you said when he's not, isn't emotionally there.

If he's not there now, I, I hope and, and you can give him resources. I hope he gets there emotionally, but sometimes they don't. Yeah. So just know it might not happen, but I, I really hope it does. And even if it doesn't, there's so much for you and, and so much ahead. Great advice. I love the tough love.

Thanks for saying that. Sorry. No, no. We need to hear that because I think the expectation can maybe be this fairy tale of like, everything will be okay. Mm-hmm . Yeah, the reality and it's not bad to hope. No, it isn't. No, and it's good to know too. I mean, I've been there. I've been there where you are, where you don't know, are they ready?

When will they be ready? Yeah. And after many years, I'm not, I'm not sure we ever gonna get there. Maybe we've got, we've gotten somewhere, but I don't think, I think there is this, this really deep hope and this child in all of us, it's like, I just wanna just want these answers and I just wanna feel better.

And I just want, I just want my dad back. Yeah. And yeah. And, and you are so loved and you are so seen and heard and, and there's positive. And a way forward for you. So please hold on to that really good couple things. Um, couple thoughts for me. So it's ideal. If you can obviously talk to your parents about this, what Kendra said made so much sense.

Rod D just said, makes so much sense if you're in a place where you can do that, um, how do you do it? So here's what I would suggest, you know, maybe you're living with mom or dad. Maybe you're not, if you're not, which probably is the case for most, um, people listening, but maybe not, you can, uh, text them and say, Hey, I'd like to talk with you about the divorce.

Or you can say, Hey, I'd like to talk with you about something serious. So what you're doing there is you're kind of, okay, Alexander, you mentioned this before, you're kind of setting the scene, you're breaking the ice, you're setting the tone of the conversation. So that's really important, cuz it can prepare someone to have that conversation as opposed to maybe just like randomly on a Tuesday night being like, Hey, I wanna talk about the divorce.

It can be a little much maybe for both of you. So give them a little bit of a heads up. That's usually ideal. Um, and then that first conversation that you have make it brief. So I've had these conversations with my parents. They're not fun. They're really uncomfortable, but they're important. And, and they can bring about a lot of healing in the long run.

You have to take a long view to this. It's not gonna be like one conversation and you're done typically you need to have multiple of these and, and they will really help in the long run or they can really help. It doesn't mean they're gonna go super well, but at least you can kind of get things off of your chest.

Say what you need to say aside from making that first conversation brief as a part of that, I guess I should say is hit on one or two main points that. You don't need to hit on like 13 different things that you wanna say, you can deal with those later. Um, but yeah, you can just hit on one or two main points and that's it.

And then just that little quick win, that little success that you experience will then help you build the confidence to have future conversations on that. And then at the end of the conversation, just ask the question like, Hey, do you mind if we talk about this again, at some point in the future, when I'm ready to talk about it and see what they say, if they say yes, then, you know, okay, I can approach them at a future time and ask to talk about it.

And we're all good. If they say no, then that's kind of going back to what Alexandra said, something that, you know, we just at least need to swallow deal with for now. And hopefully in the future, that will change. If it never does, then we have to figure out a way to be okay with that, which it's really tough.

It's really hard. So. Going back to what we said before, too, if that's too much sitting down and having that conversation with your mom or dad, because maybe it would end badly, maybe you're at a, what we say is kind of to do an assessment of like, this sounds super nerdy, but do a little bit of like an assessment of how do I think this will go?

And if the likelihood that is that it will go like really badly, let's say I'm like, there's 80% chance. This is gonna go really badly. I wouldn't advise having that conversation. But if you think there's like a 20% chance, it will go badly, then take that risk. I think that's a good risk. So if that's the case where it might go really badly, again, going back to a letter, writing a letter or emailing your mom and dad, even though it's not ideal, that can be a good alternative as well.

Anything to add to that before I go to the next point that they asked about building a better relationship? Yeah. Just about I have something I, anything, any of those points? Yeah. Yeah. Going off of what you said, Joey, with preparing for that conversation and having one or two things you wanna bring up.

Journal and talk about it to yourself. Right. And it's hard, but maybe you could have that conversation with yourself in a mirror. Right? Try, try to work through those things. If you have a trusted confidant that you can be like, can I just try having this conversation with you between work through some of my fears of, I expect it could go this badly.

Okay. What does badly mean? Can you quantify it and like, see what that could be good point. Yeah. And do it with someone that you trust because the word divorce is scary because of all the trauma you've gone through, it's such an emotional upheaval. Um, and so if you're able to process that with someone that's, um, has that trust with you.

And again, if it's not your parents, it's not a bad thing. Mm-hmm, right. To be able to talk about it and, and it's not to normalize it, but it's you being able to not feel so triggered by it, that you now feel back in control of it instead of terrified and hurt and all those nasty emotions that come up that you are like, this is not me.

I don't know what to do, but mm. It's a product of it. It is reality of it. Mm-hmm but that doesn't mean you can't change it. Mm-hmm that's good. Anything dad? Yeah, one really quick thing I would recommend. Um, I went on a retreat recently and we wrote out our story of divorce and you can use the word divorce as said many times on paper, as you want.

So start with the very beginning day one. Maybe it's the day you were born, maybe it's the day your parents met, whatever you want it to be. Write out the whole story and take your time, take your time and use that word as many times as you want. Cuz sometimes putting it from your head to paper. You don't have to give it to anybody.

I mean, it can be a journal entry. It can be whatever you want it to be, but writing it out in detail and use that word divorce and put it on paper because that's what it is. And if you can't say it out loud to your father or your mother. you can write it down. That's really very helpful. Yeah, no, that's really good.

We, um, Adam Young runs the podcast, the place we find ourselves great podcast. He has an exercise in there about writing your circle. We'll link to that, um, in this gen. So you guys can, it literally guides you step by step. So I found that helpful as too, and we've had people go through that exercise, so really good.

And on that point of like the word divorce, it's like, what are you afraid of? Maybe you're afraid of the way mom or dad will react. So maybe dig into that a little bit. Um, and then finally, when you talk about like building a better relationship with your dad, um, just going back to something I said before, so I.

Again, I wouldn't start by talking about like heavy topics, but start with maybe common interests. So there's really two ways. If you kinda break it down, there's two ways that you grow an intimacy with someone. One is through conversations and two is through experiences. Like if you think about that's the way you bond with another person, same thing applies to your parents, not just like a friendship or a romantic relationship.

So conversations and experiences. So the, you know, middle ground for that is things you both enjoy. So talk about things you both enjoy. Talk about experiences. I would say experiences are the best way to start with someone who's kind of emotionally distant, cuz those conversations can often stay at the surface level.

I know that often with my parents, they just like, don't go very deep, which is unfortunate. And so they need a little bit of prodding to, to go a bit deeper, but start with those experiences, do things you enjoy together. That could be really simple. It could be like mini golfing together. It could be like you.

Uh, camping or kayaking or whatever you guys like to do, uh, do those sorts of things and just go slowly and try to, you know, again, set the stage if possible, when the time comes, where you would open up about bigger things when it comes to a dad dads. Aren't great. I'm a dad now. So could say this, um, dads can often be really, um, not great with talking about emotions.

So you might need to kind of set the stage and open the door for that. Dads have emotion or men in general should just say this. Doesn't just apply to dads. We have emotions, but we're often not as good about expressing them and putting them into words as maybe women are. And so, um, if that's the case, you might need to kind of pull that out of him gently, and it's not your job to like, teach him how to do that, but you can, you know, prompt him so to speak.

Um, it's not really supposed to be that way, but, uh, sadly it is that way for people like us, especially who come from broken families or wonder both parents can often be kind of emotionally distant. So with that, we're gonna move on to the next question. And then, uh, yeah, so this question is dealing with your anger and navigating, uh, your dysfunctional family.

So the background is my parents got a divorce when I was about four and a half years old at the time. It was my mom, my dad, my sister and me. I've had a lot of anger, uh, issues from them, uh, from it. And now my sister who hated my dad now lives with him. Um, my stepmom and my little step sister. So the biggest part is my dad is not my sister's real dad.

uh, her biological dad was with my mom before my, uh, before she met my dad, my sister dismissed all of the childhood trauma that my dad caused. Now. She won't talk to anyone in my mom's family. When it comes to me, my dad's side, won't let me talk to, to them or my sisters, which is really hard for me. I'm lost.

And I don't know where to go from here. I'm looking for your advice. Thank you for letting me ask you for help. So the questions are, how do I deal with my anger towards my parents and how do I navigate the dysfunction in my extended family? So I can talk with my sisters, Alexandra. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I wanna tell you how sorry I am.

That sounds like a very difficult situation you are seen and you are heard. I think it's totally normal in most everyone. I think that is a child of divorce in any capacity, whether it's really messy or new or old can feel very angry. I know I did. And I still do at times. So just know that this is very common and that this may come and go.

I would, I would suggest it's hard with extended family and it's hard when you're, when it's your sister and I don't know how close you are, but, um, me and my sister are very close. And so I can only imagine it's very difficult for you, but I would, I would suggest really leaning into, I, I know part of it is friendships at Kendra and I are like sisters in this.

And so I think if you can find a really validated friend to really confide in, it really does help. And it really does make a difference in, in the situation. Friends become like family. I. I can't guarantee. I can't promise you that your sister or your extended family will ever come around and I'm certainly not suggesting that you replace them, but I am suggesting that you find some support and some friends who have maybe gone through this because our siblings can sometimes be the best of our friends.

They can sometimes be our best friends and so finding good friendships. And I also would suggest, you know, really building community around this. So restored has a great community of listeners. I would suggest yeah. Finding somebody who is maybe able to, to see and hear you in this way. Good stuff. Kendra, do you have anything to add to that?

In addition to having a support system is Alexandra was saying in that community, whether it's through restored or some someplace else that you found that. healthy coping mechanisms. I think there's so many times that we give ourselves excuses for poor behavior because we've been hurt and that's not a healthy way to have compassion for yourself.

Right. I do wanna acknowledge that. It sucks. And I'm so sorry that you are now part of this club that no one wants to be a part of. Yeah. And so I found for me, there's a lot of different ways I could have turned and I have turned cuz I'm by no means perfect. And for me, a lot of times it's emotionally with dries or with drinking and partying different ways where I feel.

loved or have like a lift in the moment. But I know for a fact I feel worse when it's all done. Mm-hmm right. And so that's what I mean about naming them. I'm not saying that a relationship in and of itself is bad. I'm not saying drinking in and of itself is bad. I'm not saying going out with friends in and of itself is bad.

Mm-hmm but can you name like those really healthy ones that when you're done? Okay. I actually feel like a MOCU better. Mm-hmm right. Um, for a moment you're able to forget for me it's weightlifting or hiking. It's finally, when things get quiet and I can push myself and deal with anger and frustration, resentment hurt tears and like a tree doesn't care.

If I cry right. A tree doesn't care. What I'm doing. And so I found that has been so healing for me to do that. Also another one for me is studying, learning something new. Hmm. Challenging myself in a way. And then tracking that progress of like, oh my gosh, I've changed. And then I look back and I've also emotionally changed, right?

When you're pushing yourself in one area, the rest of you is didn't catch up in a way. Yeah, no, really. Yeah, there there's so much in there. I, I would say touching on like the anger piece, you know, like we've said, it's so normal to feel anger. Um, anger is really just an emotion, an emotional response to a real or perceived injustice and divorce, your family breaking apart.

Your relative's not letting you see your siblings. Like that's certainly an injustice. It's not something you're supposed to go through. It's not something that's easy to go through. It's not, it's not a good thing. And so I I'm so sorry again, what you've been through and your anger just makes so much sense.

What I would say I I've dealt with anger. Anger is, uh, one of those things that kind of has been a struggle for me at different times. A couple things I've learned one don't hold it inside. If you hold it inside, it will get bigger and more difficult to deal with. So like Kendra was saying, you can get it out in one of those ways.

Um, she said naming it. That's really good. Another way to say it, you know, is putting it into words. So whether that's writing or speaking to someone or just recording a voice memo, honestly, that sounds silly, but that can be helpful. Just get it out of your chest. And that can kind of dissipate the anger almost like taking the air out of a balloon, right?

Because again, when anger's just inside of us, it festers and it grows and it gets big. And then often what happens is it will just come out of nowhere in a conversation, in a relationship and you might not even recognize yourself in those situations. Um, so. Yeah, go ahead. And as you go through feeling these emotions, what really helped me and I highly recommend for everyone was actually having a therapist because otherwise I get stuck.

It's like, I, I sit in it and then I dunno what to do with it. And I find that it confessor, even though I'm like, oh, look at it. I learned like a new skill today, but I went after it and like had coffee with that friend who gives me so life. And I went for a hike. The counselor is trained to help guide you and navigate these things right.

And to help you come up with emotional coping mechanisms and just new ways of mapping out and naming emotions, um, and to guide you through it, all right, you, you are not alone in this. There's so many resources to help. Um, I have found that the way I can most actively get after it was when I had someone who was trained in this right.

Trained in marriage and family therapy. Um, I can't remember their exact word. I'm trying to think of internal family systems, internal family systems. Oh my goodness. It. Revolutionized my past two years, um, seeing that therapist that knows that in particular, because I feel so seen and understood, and I feel I am no longer powerless.

Hmm. So good. Dr. Gary Chapman, he's the one who wrote the five love languages. He also has another book called anger, taming, a powerful emotion. So in dealing with my own anger, I've looked into I've, you know, read this book. And one of the frameworks he offers and is just this five step process that you can use to deal with your anger.

So it's been helpful for me. I just wanna offer it to you in case it would be helpful as well. And this is Logan, by the way, asked this question. So Logan, the first step is consciously acknowledge. To yourself that you are angry. So it sounds so silly. It sounds so simple, but just even just saying like, okay, I feel angry right now to yourself.

Like that's really powerful. Again, it can kind of take some of the, some of the energy or some of the, um, anger kind of out of the situation, just by acknowledging that you are angry. Next number two is restrain your immediate response. So you might wanna say something nasty or do something that would kind of get back at that person.

Restrain that that's not a very popular word in our world these days. Like that self denial, like not acting on what you wanna do, but it can be so helpful. So that's step number two. And then three is locate the focus of your anger. So often we get angry about something, but that's not the real issue.

There's something deeper. So try to like really recognize what you're angry about. And so it could be like, I don't know, a police officer giving you a ticket for, you know, going a little bit over the speed limit and you just get like, super upset about that obviously, but a little bit disproportionately upset about it and you might be realizing, well, you know, maybe someone in your life just wasn't really fair with you and that reminded you.

That dis you know, that imbalance in your life and it made you extremely angry. Getting a ticket from a cop is definitely upsetting. But, um, but you can see what I'm saying there, there's often something beneath the surface. You need to kind of recognize that, locate that, and then analyze your options.

That's number four, he says, analyze your options. So you see, okay, how can I respond? You always want your response to not be a reaction, but really a thoughtful reply or response to the situation. And that may, by doing that, you. Much less, you'll be much less likely to regret your actions. And you'll normally you you'll just build like this ability to have mastery over yourself by acting, not just by what you feel by why by what is right in that situation.

And then step number five is take constructive action. So it's basically after you analyze your options, choose one of those options and act on it. And, uh, and that can be a really helpful. So again, I'll listen quickly consciously acknowledge to yourself that you are angry, uh, restraint, your immediate response, locate the focus of your anger, analyze your options.

Take constructive action, Kendra, anything bad about making other people upset when it comes to I have stuff about that. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to like your relatives. So on one end, I, I don't know if this is possible in your situation, you know, it's, we're, we're, um, answering these questions with somewhat limited information, but one question is, do you need to really deal with them?

Can you go directly to your sister, for example, who you wanna build a relationship with? Like, why do you, why do your relatives, it sounds like this is extended family. That's causing all this drama. Why do they need to be involved in the relationship? So maybe ask that question, like, can you just have a relationship with your sister and kind of let them deal with their own issues and you don't really need to get into that.

That that's one option, but maybe they are putting like legitimate barriers up aside from just their opinion that you have to get through. If that's the case one tactic here, which is not an easy tactic. So I know probably most people listening won't do this, but if there's one person who's maybe causing a lot of this tension and a lot of the barriers, if it's good and healthy and safe for you, of course.

Confront them about it a again, it will take time to build up to this, but if you can just be like, Hey, you know, I know you have real issues with me, you know, talking to my sisters, like, why is that? And trying to understand kind of where they're coming from now, again, if they're just gonna abuse you, or there's a situation where it's just like super unhealthy, don't do that.

That's not what I'm recommending, but, but if you can talk to them about it and just try to kind of see what they're, where they're coming from, cuz what it often might be is they're being really unreasonable. And if you show them that, you know, you're just, you just want a relationship with your sister.

Like there's something so good. And again, place, try to place them in your shoes. Just be like, Hey, how would you feel if you know, and don't say this in an antagonizing way, but just say, you know, Hey, how would you feel if you know, you couldn't talk to your sibling? Like, how would that, how would that feel?

How, how would you take that? That can be really helpful thing to, to offer to them because then they put themselves in your shoes and they realize, oh yeah, you know, that would be really difficult. I, I wouldn't like that at all. And so that's just one thing that you can do, but not an easy situation at all.

And I'm really sorry you're going through it. Um, I know when your family breaks apart, there's all sorts of drama and it usually does involve, uh, relatives who often just take the side of one parent. And so if you give the appearance of maybe citing with that opposing parent, that can really make you a target, an enemy, so to speak to those relatives and it can be really, really difficult to deal with.

And there might not be a great resolution, at least in the short term, unfortunately. So I'm sorry to. Can I give that tough love, but that is a reality at times I hate that there are sides. When we had everything happen with my dad's family, they saw my dad is a large extended family. Right. I'm talking like he is eight siblings, like 30 plus first cousins, my grandparents, like it's massive.

And we got together with them all of the time they circled the wagons because they saw that their brother was hurting. Right. Yeah. So that they're protective. They, they get so protective. So they circled the wagons. It just made no sense why I was on the outside or my mom was public enemy number one, or my sisters didn't belong.

It made no sense to me. Yeah. And so during, at that time I could not process. I tried not fathom it whatsoever and I lost all relationships with them because there were so many hoops that had to jump through or this or that after a lot of work on myself where I know I can. Have those difficult conversations without just bursting into tears or feeling so angry.

I just like turn red and I have a problem of when I'm frustrated, I cry and I'm like, oh, that's a weakness. Like it, I, I was not at a point to do that. Right. Yeah. Versus now, I mean, it's been 14 years. They seem a lot less scary one cuz the distance, but two I'm older. Right? Sure. And navigating the dysfunction with them, especially with like your little sister, right.

Both like your step sister and all those. Would we be to even just ask again, go directly to either the sisters or parents, if you can. And just say my desire is to have a relationship with my sister. Hmm. What do you recommend? I do. How can I do that? Mm-hmm right. Maybe they have certain house rules of like, you can't take her out anywhere, but like, great.

Can I grab some Chipotle? And we sit in the backyard and just chat and ask her how school's going. Find some different ways where there, there can be a compromise on location or activity or what have you. But the ultimate goal is like, you both agree. A relationship is good and that's what we want. Mm.

Again, with more healing that happened, I was starting to, able to, I was starting to be able to have conversations with the extended family and some went well, some didn't . I remember very distinctively. I was at church, you know, I don't know, six years ago. And I turned around and my cousin was sitting directly behind me.

Hmm. I was triggered obviously, but it was like almost shocked because I'd been almost 60 years since we had seen each other. Was I with too? No, you weren't. No. Okay. I thought there was a situation where I think you recognized the FA anyway, keep going. Oh man. I probably called you up right afterwards. I was like, oh my gosh.

And. It was so scary cuz I didn't know how he would respond. I didn't know anything. He was 16. I was 14 right after church. He looked at me, um, it was a evening service or, and mass and he's like, do you wanna grab a drink? So we did. I was sweating. I was so nervous guys. And we went and got a drink and we sat and we chatted.

And at first it was, you know, what are you doing? It's been six years. Turns out we lived within minutes of each other. We worked in the same area. Right? Wow. All in the same, um, city area of realizing we had been passing each other, going to the same church without even just for whatever reason, this is when destiny wanted to line everything out.

Wow. And then we got past that. There was an awkward silence and we both knew, we were like, all right, you gotta, you gotta talk about the elephant in the room, but obviously we're a lot more mature now. And he was just like, Hey, what happened? Oh, wow. And I found out he knew nothing of what happened. Right. I had spoken previously about some things and, um, about like my uncles being really hard on me and things like that.

He, he said I was 16. I was a boy. I was focused on the hot, I didn't know any of the stuff was happening. Yeah. Like I'm really sorry. Yeah. And I even told him, I know that our family was taught that blood is thicker than water. I know we were taught and brought up with these values and I know that's how our parents think.

Right. Mm-hmm cause our parents are siblings and I see that they circled the wagons. I just don't get why, like my sisters, my mom and I were all like left to hang out to dry. Right. Mm. It didn't make any sense. How come no one talked to me about it. Yeah. And so we were able to have a conversation, um, and connect on like a natural law level or what do we, what do we wish our parents had kind of done in a, in a very gentle and loving.

We were both skitish obviously, but I found so. Much healing from that conversation of just, I don't feel I'd be so scared to encounter a relative again, mm-hmm and I actually have a desire now versus before it was an absolute pushing away keeping at arms arms length, because it was so messy. I felt so hurt and unseen and seen and painted as an enemy.

It is messy. It is not easy. And I would encourage one on one, if you feel so inclined to speak to the extended family, um, good point do not get into a number situation, cuz you are ready, will feel hurt and stared and you're more likely to lash out then and do things you might regret rather than feeling more in control and safe in a situation.

Yeah. And. People rarely change their mind in groups. I think there's research about that. Like if you try to persuade someone in like a group or other people are watching, it's like not gonna happen. Mm-hmm so yeah, one on one that's really wise. And, uh, what Alexandra said before too, or maybe you said, sorry, if I'm misremembering, um, ask questions, like ask good questions.

That's like really an important tactic to use, as opposed to just like making statements that might come across as like accusatory, like you're accusing them of doing something wrong, even if they maybe did do something wrong, um, that that's like a more tactful, uh, way to go about it. So going back to one of the other questions though, you wanted to add a few things.

Um, oh yeah. So, yeah. Please go ahead. Yeah. Going off of what you said with Joey in terms of building a relationship through conversation and activities, right. Especially with a father, um, there are different levels of a relationship. So the easiest way is chit chat relationships, right? where it's, you can talk about something.

You might talk about something very Inna about what happened at work that day, but you're chatting. Mm-hmm I have not been there for a long time with my dad. I don't wanna chat. I don't want him to know anything. Yeah. Right. And that's okay. A second level, if you will, will be as you chat and you open up more like layers of an onion, right.

Would be to start doing more activities and spending a longer period of time together. Right. Learning those different ways. If you're comfortable with that, right. That's a way that it relationship can deepen. And then like, I would say a third level are those that are, that know, like your heart of hearts and it's hard and it sucks that your parents aren't there and you so desire them to be there.

and there's so many it's it's backwards, right? There's so many ways that you wanted him to fulfill emotional needs or to be there for you as a father. And he hasn't been. And how do you now navigate that when like your deep desire is let's get right to it. I think I might feel safe. I might not mm-hmm um, and instead of think of it as an incremental things who knows what the timeline is, that depends on both of you guys.

It takes two to have a relationship. Maybe he's ready. Maybe he's not, maybe you are, or not might depend on the season or the day mm-hmm . And so sometimes I like to think of different goals. It's what I'm doing right now with my therapist. I want a goal to be where I have a phone call with my dad. Mm-hmm why a phone call.

You can hang up or say you're busy or gotta go. So, sorry. Right. There's an easy way to end it. Yeah. Where it doesn't feel so scary. You won't get cornered either, right. Or you don't feel as if, oh, I have to. You have three hours of my time now. Right? It's it's simple to think of like 15 minute phone call, um, different things like that.

Mm-hmm to work towards that. I am thinking of ways that I feel okay to text him. I have not told him unless he listens to this that my goal is to have a phone conversation with him. That is something that, you know, I've been working on with my therapist and it could happen in a year, could happen in five.

It really depends. Right. There is. We're not setting a timeline to it as much as what are steps we can take to incrementally get there. Mm-hmm we just had father's day. I had no problem this year, sending him a happy father's day text. And I truly meant it. Not just, oh, I know I have to send it, but it brought up so many things and I was like, oh my gosh, this is a step.

This is a huge win. Good for you. Um, of I'm okay with this. Yeah. And I, and I, I recognize him as a father and I desire to have a deep relationship with him and it may or may not happen, but I know that desire is dead. I know that I love him and that I, I can tell him I'm thinking about him today. Nice. And it was a way that I knew I could give with, even if, for whatever reason he might have had a bad reaction to it, that I was going to be okay with whatever the reaction was.

Mm-hmm I didn't prepare myself for the first per se, but he still surprised me. He was very kind about it. That's awesome. And I was like, thanks for reaching out. I was thinking about you today too. You know, love you. And I was like, guess what? We sent two texts. And that was a huge win for like my whole year.

That's awesome. Right. To really set that up there probably relieving, super relieving. And maybe within five years, I'll see him. I don't know, another baby steps, baby steps. Another thing that I do with my dad. Joey's what you said about common interests. I don't talk about everything in my life with him.

What I do talk about is stuff that I know he likes. Right? It's a safer topic then. Sure. We're not bringing in, um, the fact that I haven't seen him forever. We're not bringing in family or this or that. It's, we're not even like my sisters, right. It's very simple. We talk about sports. We talk about hunting and we talk about nature because nice in reflecting on different ways.

My father has impacted me, even if I didn't feel like he was emotionally there. I know dads in a lot of ways give through access service, or sometimes with quality time. Right? There's different ways. Love languages. Sure. You know, we're always referencing Gary Chapman. um, my dad really cultivated in me a love for nature and for quiet.

And I always found that with him every fall, during the hunting season or siding in the rifles or things like that. Mm-hmm . And so those have been the biggest ways of me feeling comfortable talking with him as well as knowing a way that it's like, he probably feels comfortable with it too. Yeah. It's something he knows and he loves it's familiar.

Exactly. So it's easier to connect there. And with that frequency may happen right. At different intervals and you start to progress to a potentially deeper relat. Love that. And I love the phone call tactic, cuz yeah, it's a little bit safer and you don't need to do FaceTime or anything like that. You can just do a phone call and um, one tactic that might help.

I've done this at times, um, in conversations where I need to like. Know that there's a boundary is scheduling it against something where it's like a hard stop where it's like, okay, like literally have to go meet this person. Or I have to go do this thing. Like, I, I don't, I can't extend it at all. That can be a kind of a safe way for you to say, okay, I have 20 minutes, I have 15 minutes.

I have 30 minutes to talk and then that's it. Like, it's not gonna be dragged into a, an hour long or a, you know, hour and a half long conversation. So that could be good when it comes back, going back to relatives. So Logan, you know, going back to your question about, yeah, just having that tension, that drama in your family.

One of the saddest things for me, when my parents separated and later divorced was that my relationship with my cousins was like really damaged. And I love my cousins. Like I really do. We've been able to kind of keep a relationship, but I've noticed that it. It did, it was affected. And even my aunts and uncles, you know, that one was a little bit more directly affected.

So it is just really sad that that happens. And hopefully in time, you know, we can start rebuilding those relationships, but it is just a sad reality that I wanted to bring attention to. Um, two final questions. So Nadia asked, how do I buy your book? So what she's talking about is, um, I wrote a book called it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

You might have heard me talk about this in the podcast before, but the book features 33 question and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families. So they're really quick. Um, usually like, Two three page answer, uh, to these really pressing questions that we have.

And so if you wanna learn more about that, learn about the, you know, what questions we, I answer in that book. You just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can get the first chapters for free. If you wanna sample the book or you can click on the buy now button to purchase the whole book on Amazon.

So, Nadia, I hope that helps. Thanks so much for asking. Uh, if you guys have enjoyed the advice in this conversation, there's a lot more in that book. The next question is from Gloriana, um, great name by the way. Gloriana um, you said that. Uh, this is about speaking. So you said I'm a college student. She said, hi, Joey, I'm a college student and I'm working on a project discussing children of divorce and the K through 12 is school system.

So front of you, um, you know, not in the us, we're talking about, um, primary school and secondary school. I would love to bring you into speak. I would also love to chat about my project. Thank you so much. So we have talked, we've done a few meetings, um, but I wanted to answer this question for anyone else who's answering.

So how do I book a talk? She asked how much, um, is it to book a talk? So again, thank too much for asking. So book a talk. So we do speaking engagements at schools at churches, at events at universities, you can just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking. Uh, at this point there's two main talks that I give in the future role of additional personalities and people who give talks.

The first one is what I wish someone told me when my parents divorced. So what I wish someone told me when my parents' divorced is, is really practical advice on how to cope in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, some really simple tactics that young people can use to heal from that trauma they've been through.

And then advice on how to build healthy relationships, not just stuff that I've made up, but really what research says, what people who've done it have to say, that's the first talk, the second talk. And that's more related to people who just come from broken families. The second talk is more general can apply to people who come from broken families.

Certainly. But also people who don't and that's titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage. So again, it's not me just making this up, I'm trying to live this out, but it's something, um, so the, the, the content in that talk is built on really practical advice from research. So psychological research is referenced a lot time tested couples.

So couples that, you know, I've been witnessed or I've been able to witness and like study so to speak and just learn from, and then finally, wisdom from Christianity. Christianity is so much to say about building like really healthy, beautiful relationship. So again, that's seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage.

So. If you're a leader at a school university church conference, then these talks are perfect for your audience. I mean, we'd love to partner with you. We've worked with focus. FCAN university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university, the diocese of San Diego, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the archdiocese of Denver.

Just to mention a few, we've been honored to serve them. Um, when it comes to pricing, the pricing will go up. But right now I can say it's a fraction of the cost of what other speakers. Charge. So most speakers charge anywhere from 1500 to $5,000 for a talk. I know that might sound ridiculous if you're not familiar with this world.

Uh, but that's the reality of it. We charge a fraction of that at this recording. It's $500 for a talk plus travel fees, but again, that's gonna go up in the future. Um, so just get in touch as soon as you can. If you'd like to schedule something, uh, for your venue, again, go to restored ministry.com/speaking, and then you can click on the book, a talk button, fill out the form, and that will begin the process.

So with that, thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you guys for being here. Both Kendra and Alexandra. Uh, Alexandra had to head out a little bit early. So if you were wondering, where did Alexandra go? She had to head out, but I'm honored to have you Kendra. And I know Alexandra, you're listening to this.

Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. You guys are both, uh, such incredible people. Who've. Just grown healed so much. So I'm honored to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Submit more questions. We'll do another round table. Yeah, we're excited. I'll tell you about that in the outro.

Thank you guys.

If you'd like to contact Alexandra, you can find your email and social handles in the show notes. As you saw in this episode, we're accepting questions for the show. You can submit your questions and we'll answer them on the ReSTOR podcast. Again, it will be me or my guests or all of us together. And you can ask anything you want, maybe you feel stuck or you're unsure how to handle the pain or the challenges from your parents' breakup.

Maybe you're unsure of how to begin or continue healing, or maybe you're someone who loves or leads someone who's going through their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe just really dysfunctional marriage. And you need to know how do I help them, whatever your question we wanna help, we will give you really specific and practical answers right here on the show.

How do you do it? Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/ask again, restored ministry.com/ask you, fill out the form with your question. You can do that anonymously or not. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. Again, that's restored ministry.com/ask, or you can just click the link in the show notes.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 70. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#074: Why Children of Divorce Learn to Act Like Chameleons | Craig Soto II

Often, people from broken families become very attuned to the needs of others, especially our parents and siblings. We become skilled at being what people want us to be. In the end, we often lose ourselves and our ability to articulate what we need and want.

In this episode, we discuss that problem as well as:

• How normal was strange and strange was normal for our guest growing up

• Why he became motivated to break the generational cycle of divorce in his family

• How he felt like burden in his relationships, which made him feel the need to earn love and constantly prevent it from ending any moment

Share your story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Craig Soto II

  • Twitter

  • Instagram

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So often people like us who come from broken families become very attuned to the needs of others, especially our parents and our siblings who become skilled at being what people want us to be. And in the end we often lose ourselves in our ability to articulate what we need and what we want. In this episode, we discussed that problem as well as how normal was strange and strange was normal for my guests.

Growing up, we talk about how he became motivated to break the cycle of divorce in his family that extends through generation. He shares, uh, the area of his life, where he struggled the most as a child of divorce. He talks about three things that helped him heal the most, including a really beautiful, married couple.

And he explains how he felt like a burden in his relationships, which made him feel the need to earn love and constantly prevent those relationships from ending at any moment. This is such a good and insightful episode. So keep listening,

welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 74. My guest today is Craig Soto. Second Craig is, uh, Colorado native. He grew up in Colorado Springs before moving to golden, Colorado for college at the Colorado school of mines there, he received a degree in computer science and now works in the tech industry as a development manager.

After many years of working through the symptoms stemming from his parents' divorce, it wasn't until the past couple of years that he began focusing specifically on healing, the wounds that came from the divorce after hearing an early episode from this podcast for the last year, he's been volunteering to help other people who come from broken families with life, giving wounds, he's helped with the in person and online retreats, as well as helping to start a support group for people who have attended the retreat in Denver.

Craig also loves to host movie nights at his apartment play whiffle ball and watch hockey. He's a big Colorado avalanche fan, actually. And so without further to do here's my conversation with Craig soda. The second

Craig is great to be with you here. Thanks for coming on the show. Absolutely. No, thanks for having me, Joe. I appreciate it. You've been on the list to come on the show for a long time, so I'm glad we, uh, finally got to make this a reality. Um, I was curious about your name. Are you a junior? Uh, it's, it's funny.

Uh, so people ask me, you know, because I'm Craig, so the second, uh, I'm named after my dad and, uh, a lot of people, they, you know, they say, well, or is this supposed to be junior? And I say, actually on my birth certificate actually says the second. So technically I am named Craig. So the second. But, uh, even with that, like I looked up like rules for it and stuff.

And people always give some really goofy stuff, but when, whenever they kinda gimme too much crap, I always tell 'em we don't have John Paul Jr. We have John Paul second. So yeah. I've, I've always wanted to ask you that. So, no, that, that's interesting about the birth certifi goal. I know we're gonna be talking about a little bit of heavier topic than, uh, your name and, uh, I'd like to go to that now, if that's okay.

I'm curious, you know, what happened in your family when your parents separated and divorced and how old were you? Yeah, so, um, I was around like five or six when my parents divorced. Um, it was something that. Like, I don't remember a whole lot of like going through the divorce. I don't remember ever going to like court or anything.

You know, the, the only thing that I I do remember is just, you know, my parents not being together. Uh, and so, you know, just growing up, you know, my dad never, I never remember my dad like living at our house, but one of the really cool things that I, I really kind of look back on and just kind of realize is that, you know, my dad, you know, was, was, was still there.

You know, even though my parents divorced, you know, he was still involved in our lives, you know, you look back and can be kind of weird, you know, too, cuz sometimes my dad would come over in the morning to get us dress for school, you know? And it's just like, you know, but, but dad doesn't live here. You know, he, he lives somewhere else.

Right. And so it, you know, you kinda look at some of those things and it's strange, but at the same time, I, I really appreciate my dad's, uh, involvement in our lives. Even though my parents still divorce. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. And, uh, that probably was confusing to the younger, you though. I, I totally hear what you're saying.

Like that was a good thing that he made the effort to be present in your life, as opposed to what happens with some dads or moms too. They just kind of are completely, um, out of the picture. So, so no, I totally hear you on that, but what was that pretty confusing? Would you say for a five, six year old or I guess for the years I followed to, yeah.

You know, I, I think, uh, for me, like growing up, I, I don't know if I found it to be. Really confusing because for me that's just how it was. Um, you know, and, and so really, if anything, I, I found, you know, when both the parents were there, I felt like that was more strange than, than, you know, having, you know, one parent, you know?

And so it was kind of the opposite, you know, the normal was strange to me while the, the abnormal was, was normal. So, um, but you know, one of the, like, even some of the things that came from that though was, you know, like being able to like understand and how to, how to do things, right. There's a lot of times, you know, growing up that, you know, with my, with my family, like we really just, we really kind of just lived with a lot of it.

We lived with the, the strange. You know, there's even things where, uh, a lot of times I just kinda had it figured out on my own, you know, my, I have an older sister and so, you know, when, when my parents divorced, uh, my dad was working, my mom ended up taking up two jobs and stuff and, and she, you know, she was working a long time.

So, you know, for me, my sister is just us. And so, you know, um, for, for us, we were just in the home, you know, we weren't really kind of able to go outside a whole lot. And, uh, you know, it was just, it was just us kind of taking care of ourselves, you know, over, over time, you know, I really came to see like, that's, that's not normal, you know?

And so as I got older and I started to look back on those things, that's when I guess it really started to change for me to really see. Oh, other people don't do this and everything became strange as time went on. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. I love what you said. You said, um, normal was strange to you and strange was normal.

I think that's like such a great way to put it for so many of us. I think that's just reality. Right. And, and even to the point cracker, like where I've seen people almost not even recognize like completely miss the fact that something maybe was broken or kind of messed up in their family, because it was just like, well, this is just the way it's always been.

Yeah. It's like, it's like, you know, if you wore a hat all your life and then you took it off one day, it would be like, well, it's kind of strange to not wear a hat. It's like that second nature. And so. Yeah, I think, uh, one of the challenges I know we face in this nonprofit in this ministry is that, um, we're trying to show people that, you know, a lot of the struggles that they deal with today, the pain, the problems are intimately connected to the breakdown of their family, of their parents' marriage and their family.

But a lot of people like think a lot of times that their struggles are random and they certainly don't connect it to their family of origin, which is sad because I think that's a big barrier to healing and growth. And so, like you said, though, we, we kind of need to overcome that thinking that this is normal because in a lot of ways, it wasn't.

Yeah. And, and one of the things that I've. Really come to see is, you know, I I've been to counseling myself since, uh, what, maybe 2014, there's been like what? This is my fifth time around, you know, going to counseling. And every time I've gone, you know, there was something I was trying to focus on working on.

Right. Hey, there's this behavior, that's just that that's not healthy. I wanna work on that. I, I, I kind of grow in those areas, but it wasn't really until I think, you know, about January last year, um, that I had some stuff kind of going on in my life and it really just kind of really shook me up. And, and I really started to see like, Hey, there, there's something deeper here.

And, and it wasn't until then that I, that I actually started to what, what I realized. That there's that, that deeper wound that's there coming from my parents' divorce. Every, every time I went before to counseling was really treating, you know, a symptom then, then it was like, you know, again, this past year when I really started to see like, okay, what's the root cause of all that.

And not that, you know, like, you know, like I'm, I'm broken or, you know, I'm unworthy or, or any of these things, but it's just like, you know, where do, where does all these thoughts come, come from? Where do all these behaviors come from? And that's where I really started to see and, and recognize, Hey, that's probably coming from my parents' divorce.

And for me, that's where I've been really motivated over the past. Like that's a year and a half, you know, to really start to see like, okay, this is something that's big, it's impacting my. And, and I want to start to get, get better. I wanted to heal these things. That's beautiful, man. And no, you're already doing a lot even to help other people, which I admire so much, going back to the question of kind of what went down in your family as much as you're comfortable sharing.

I was just wondering if there was more you wanted to add to kind of that whole dynamic and everything that led up to the brokenness, uh, in your family. Yeah. One, one of the things that, um, I've spent a lot of time kind of trying to retrace, you know, like just like my family history, where did we come from?

What's our life like, and some of the things in, in really doing that, I've come to see that, you know, my parents' divorce was not new for my family. It was not something that was shocking. But in fact it was kind of the opposite. It was, it was normal. And what I mean by that is I kind of started to realize like, wow, my, my parents, and even my grandparents' generation really saw a lot of divorce within the family.

and, um, and so I, I really look at this as something that is, is pretty generational. And I think, you know, just a lot of it has just a just deal with, you know, just brokenness within it, you know, just how divorce became more and more common over times, even when it was unpopular, you know, my grandparents, you know, they had divorce in their life.

And so, you know, for, for my family, this was something that was, you know, again, something that happens over time. And so that was something that was eye opening to me, just to really see like again, you know, even more motivation for me. It's like, Hey, if, if I don't get some of this stuff fixed, like I know I don't want divorce in my life for my future family.

That's not what I want. And so if I'm going to really work to correct a lot of that, um, I have to put in the work now before, you know, I get married. And even when I get married, I know that there's gonna be stuff that's gonna come up there. And so I'm just trying to get prepared for a lot of that. Um, so that was one thing that really just like stood out to me.

Some, the things that really kind of came up was, uh, something. So, you know, I, I help out with a group called life giving wounds. Uh, it's a great ministry. And, uh, we have a chapter here in Denver and we've had a number of retreats and things like that. And one of the things that we've talked about in the retreat that was very helpful for me, uh, really eye-opening was, uh, to really see this, this wound of silence, you know, and, and that, I don't know if you guys talked about that here before, but just that wound of silence being like, not being able to talk about, um, you know, the, the things that came up from, from your parents' divorce.

Um, and so for me, really how that played out in a lot of ways was I tell people it's like, no one in my family ever told me, you can't talk about the divorce. You can't talk about what you're frustrated about or what's hurting you or things like that. No one ever said that I couldn't, but on the flip side, no one ever said that I could, you know, no one ever really said, you know, Hey, it's, it's okay to be upset.

It's okay to be angry. Right. And, and, you know, growing up with my older sister, you know, a lot of times they, you know, she was the one who was, she's a couple years older than me. She struggled with a lot more things. I think she felt a lot more of the frustrations and she expects it a lot more vocally than I did.

But for me, you know, I looked at my sister and I said like, well, everyone's getting upset because of what she's doing. Well, let's just not do that. Right. So for me, I bottle up a lot of, you know, the, the frustrations and the pains and the fears and, you know, and, and I started, you know, I look at kind of like growing up, I, I would say I started taking care of myself really emotionally when I was probably about like seven, eight years old, you know, I, I just kind of realized like, yeah, you know, my dad's, you know, as much as he was there, he's not here on a day to day basis.

I can't really talk to him. My mom, like she was, you know, she's going through divorce. That's very painful. She's working multiple jobs. And, you know, there's parts where she's not present and, you know, she really can't, you know, like, you know, take on more. I don't want to be a burden to my mom. I don't wanna put more on her plate.

So I didn't tell her, you know, anything that I was struggling with and that really, you know, hindered, you know, a growing relationship with my parents. So, you know, when it came to me having problems, I, I really struggle with bringing those problems up, even just in simple ways, like on a test in school, you know, the people I would see other kids or other students go up and talk to the teacher professor and ask 'em questions about the test.

I would look at 'em like, why are you asking questions? Because like, they give you all the information you need. Like, what is, how is this not clear enough for you? Yeah. I started having to think ahead of just like, what do they want? You know, what does the teacher want? What do my parents want. You know, and I had to start thinking, you know, multiple steps ahead, instead of being carefree, you know, I, I had become responsible, you know, I had to take care of myself in a lot of ways, you know, and then it was by the time I was like 16 years old that I, I felt like I became financially independent.

Um, where I was, I had a job, I was working, taking care of myself because in the end, you know, if I needed anything from anyone emotionally, financially, it wasn't gonna be there. And so, you know, no one was gonna be there to help you. I had to do it myself. And you know, that's not to say that my family doesn't love me or care about me.

You know, there's, there's lots of things that they've done, but, you know, coming from my, again, from my parents' divorce, I didn't feel like I could really go to anybody else when I needed help. And, and so like, those were just like some of the. Kind of big wounds that really stuck with me over time. Wow. No, there's so much there.

And you're wise you have so much incentive into this. It's so clear. I, I think what you just articulated is such a common experience. It's just feeling that you're on your own feeling that you, nobody has your back. There's no safety net. Like you just gotta figure life out because no one else is gonna figure it out for you.

Like, I've heard that so often from the people that we work with through restored. And so, um, I don't think you're alone in that, but it is sad that we kind of walk through life like that. And then, you know, in some areas I'm sure that's like a good thing that independence that we have in other areas it's really hard for, you know, for any sort of thriving, such as in relationships like that really reeks havoc in relationship that fierce independence that inability to express like your needs or when you're hurt or.

Try to asking for help. And so, um, that could be pretty devastating to our relationship. And so, so anyway, there's so much there, what you said about the cycle in your family, like the cycle repeating itself, that that's another such common trend that we've seen too. That you're right. It's it is generational on so many levels.

And I think one of the things car that, um, Motivates me is that we can, yeah, like you said, we can break that cycle. Um, it's gonna take a lot of hard work and we're probably gonna struggle more than maybe hopefully our children and their children in relationships and in marriage specifically, it's unfortunate.

I, I hate that reality, but, but I think it's true. Um, but the beauty is that you can grow and heal a lot to where, um, you can have a really good and really beautiful, uh, marriage, really good and really beautiful relationship. So, yeah. Thank you. You're hearing so many good points. I'm sure we could talk forever about this.

Uh, I am, uh, curious if there's anything else you would add about how your parents broken marriage and divorce affected you in addition to what you already shared? One of the big things that, you know, I, I look back on and, and you mentioned relationships. I, I have definitely seen how this has impacted my relationships, whether it's through just regular normal friendships or even dating.

Um, one of the, one of the things that, you know, I, I I've struggled with is just. A natural insecurity with friendships. You know, one of the things that, that I've, I've really struggled with is so, because in a lot of ways I didn't get a different types of affection, you know, from my family. Right. Um, you know, from both my parents being there, they were just so busy, working hard on other things that it just, you know, I, I didn't get a lot of attention, uh, except for when I was achieving.

And, and so, you know, looking at that, it's like, what, what can I do to get that attention? And for me, it was just like, wow, you know, Excel in school. Um, you know, I was in high school, I was in the air force JRTC program. You know, I did a lot of those things where it's like, yes, I can be the one to step up to do those things.

And when I did that and you know, someone told me good job, Hey, this is awesome. You're doing it like that was, you know, special for me. And so, you know, then, you know, even coming from that, when it comes to relationships, That same mentality comes over in a, in a really small way, which is, you know, what do I need to do for my friends in order for them to love me?

Right. It becomes very, almost, I would say contractual. You know, I have to do something in order to get something right. I have to step up and, and provide, you know, some sort of reason for them to like me rather than they just like me for, for me being me. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, there's parts where it becomes exhausting because you know, like I's like every time I, I gotta go and I gotta make sure that I'm a positive person, I am, I, I don't have problems.

You know, everything is totally fine. I have it all in order when, when it's really not. Because if anyone sees the, the bad right, then they're gonna, then I'm gonna become a burden to them. And if I'm a burden to them, they won't wanna talk with me. They want, they won't wanna be my friend. And so I can, I can never be a burden.

And, and that kind of mentality was something that, you know, it's something that I've really struggled with, you know, coming from, again, I think my parents divorce, because that's the last thing that they needed. That's the last thing that I want to do to people. Because in the end, if you're too much of a burden, they leave you.

Hmm. You know, and, and that's where, you know, one of the things I remember, um, I had, uh, I was dating a gal when I was in high school and that was the first time I, I really ever vocalized it, but I was always afraid of, you know, people leaving me. And so, um, you know, in, in that relationship, I just asked her, I said, you know, when is enough gonna be enough?

You know, when, when is it gonna be too much for you? And you're gonna leave me. And, you know, granted there's a high school relationship, but at the same time, like that's been with me for a long time because, you know, in, in all my relationships, that's, that's what I'm afraid of. You know, when am I gonna be too much for somebody?

And then they're gonna say, you know what, it's, it's done. It's over. I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk to you anymore. I don't wanna see you anymore. You know, and I have had some relationships where that has been the case, unfortunately, but I also feel like that's one of those, you know, as we call a self fulfilling prophecy, Right.

I fear it so much. I fear it so much that I make it become true. And, and that's where it's, it's really impacted a lot of the relationships that I've had. Uh, and it's, it's really just been, uh, hard to really overcome that or, or believe that it can change. Um, and, and that's always, I think the struggle there.

Yeah, man, you articulate that so, well, I remember in high school as well, again, it took me a while, just like you said to articulate it, but I felt like a gift that wasn't worth keeping and, and I feared abandonment as well. And I was just, yeah, just terrified of loving relationships altogether, but when it came to yeah.

Dating and all that, I. I could do like the surface level stuff. Like I could kind of like begin a relationship or flirt with a girl or just like do that kind of surface level stuff. But once it started going deeper, I was like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing here. Like, this is so scary. I, I really feel like I'm out of my depth.

Like, I, I can't do this. So I tur certainly experience that as well. What, what, uh, were there any other kind of struggles in your relationships that you saw come out that you would largely relate back to what happened in your family? Yeah, I, I think one of the other, uh, ones that, that really stands out to me is being able to, uh, like receive one of the things that, um, that I I've really seen is that I'm so good at serving mm-hmm , I'm so good at being there for other people.

I'm like, what do you need? What do you need? What do you need? You know? And, and, oh, you need that one thing I already have that cuz I've already been thinking about, right. I'm always prepared. You know, what are those. What are those ways that I can, you know, serve someone that's, that's always my focus, but when it comes for other people and, and really letting them in, you know, there's a lot of reservations to that, you know, kind of similar to, I don't wanna be a burden, but at the same time, even just having the experience of like someone asking you a question, right.

That that was something that was like foreign, like people hearing me out people, you know, really being interested in me, you know, I, I would say it was probably not until I was probably about, you know, 18 or 19 when, when I first really experienced that. Um, I had a really good, uh, you know, friend of mine.

Uh, her name is Sarah and long story, short, beautiful story, you know, but long story short, I ended up living with this family when, uh, Gabriel and Sarah. They were, uh, some focused missionaries on my campus and they had invited me to live with them for the year cuz you know, I, I needed some help, you know, kind of finding a place to live and they offered it to me.

But you know, I, I got, I, I was moving into their house that first day and, and I came in and Sarah just started bombarding with all these questions, you know, what is your favorite? This, what do you like, how do you like this? And, and a lot of it was just like, I don't know, you know, and, and for me it was just hard to really kind of like be able to answer some of those questions because I had never had someone ask me that or, or just, I never felt comfortable answering, like, how do you feel?

You know, how are you doing, you know, what's going on in your life? Right. I gave the answers, I had some stock answers, but when it got past the stock, you know, that's where it really became a struggle. But then even asking, you know, you know, asking for other people to kind of invest into me or, or allowing people to do that.

Um, I had a relationship, uh, I was dating Miguel and, uh, one of the, you know, we're in, in the midst of a relationship and she had just asked me, she's like, you know, how, how can I love you? You know? And, and she said like, you love me incredibly well, but like, how can I do that for you? And when she asked me that question, it was hard.

I couldn't answer it. I actually went to some other friends, Gabriel, her and Sarah and I, I asked him, I said, Hey, how do I respond to her? Like, how do I, you know, how do I tell her that, you know, some, what are things that you've seen that, that I know I'm loved? How do, how can I, you know, convey that to her?

It's a, it's a strange question when someone asks that and you don't know how to answer, you know? And, and, and that's again, where I just, I look at that because I think there's a lot of ways in, in my life that I was neglected and I didn't experience love. So I don't know. Didn't always know how to receive it.

A hundred percent, man, man, I relate so much to this and I. Think part of the reason for this. And I'm curious, what you think is that we become very good at kind of reflecting our environment. Like we become very good at kind of being chameleons, like those little, little reptiles that can change the color of their skin to blend in to their environment.

We just, yeah. We become these people pleasers. We're always kind of on the lookout, like you explained so well, you like, you were kind of looking a certainly trying to see, okay, what do, what does everyone need? Like what can I do to provide that to the point where we kind of just forget ourselves? To an unhealthy extent cause hearing that some people might think, well, that's being selfless well to an extent, but it goes beyond like a healthy realm when we're just kind of almost feel completely lost.

And we don't almost don't even know our own identity or know how to articulate our needs and our wants. And so I think you articulated that so well, but I, I think for me, at least so much at the core of that, inability to, you know, articulate my needs and my wants had to do with yeah, just like always paying attention to the needs and wants of others kind of blending in and being a people pleaser, especially towards my parents, cuz you know, we become very good.

Like I've seen this skill in so many people like us. It's like, we've become very good at just like reading a situation and quickly adapting to like fit into a group of people fit into, you know, or fill the needs of whatever people were around. A lot of times being like our family and our parents. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.

Oh, totally. You know, in, in my family, we, we, you know, there, there's different, sorry. There's different groups of people. Like, you know, when, when I'm with my mom, you know, a lot of the times, and, and this was stuff that was like internalized, right? Uh, a lot of times when I'm around her, it's like I can pick up on her moods and how she's doing, you know?

And I remember, you know, my sister, she was, this was around Easter time. She was, uh, visiting and, and she has a couple of kiddos and, and we were just kind of sitting around talking and stuff like that. And I, I don't remember the context, how it came up, but my sister said something that my mom used to tell us, cuz my mom working two jobs, she, you know, she would get home.

And then, you know, we would try to talk with her or ask questions or we were just playing or something like that. And my mom would just tell us, Hey, it's quiet time. You know? And so it's just like at that point we just had to be. We just had to, you know, sit there and, and not talk or not make noise or things like that.

And that's one of those things, like, I think, you know, it's not always bad to say that, but when that became the norm, right. When mom's home and she's not in a good mood, it's quiet time. Right. And it's just like, you have to be able to start to, you know, I felt like I had to start to read those things, you know, before she said them, I gotta, I gotta beat her to the punch.

If you would, you know, in my dad's household, uh, arguing is a pastime. Right. You know, it's, how can we spin the argument? How can we, you know, we will argue so much about the littlest things. Like, you know, who's the better who's America's football team. The Broncos are the Cowboys, you know, it's the Cowboys.

My, some of my family members say, it's the Broncos they're wrong. But at the same, you know, it just like will argue about anything, but it is just, sometimes it gets in those high, 10 high, you know, tension moments where you're just like, Okay. You know, are we, you know, are we joking now? Are we angry now? You know, we have to, you know, be able to read those emotions a lot more because it can kind of turn south quickly.

It can kind of blow up pretty quickly, you know? And, and, you know, in my family, we, you know, um, we don't do very well with resolutions. And so, you know, for us, it, it's all kind of like jovial. It all has to be kind of like, you know, nice because if things go wrong, then what could really happen is, you know, someone says something, they kind of go too far on a conversation.

And then all of a sudden, you know, someone blows up and they walk away. You know, and then time goes by and then they come back, someone cracks a joke and we're back to normal. It's like, but there's still that tension there because we, we didn't reconcile. We didn't resolve anything. And so, you know, in order to, you know, avoid that, we gotta avoid things three steps ahead and say, like, we don't even want to go to those types of things because we can't, cuz it's upsetting.

Right. We can't talk about the hard topics necessarily unless someone blows up unless it gets, you know, overwhelming or something like that. Mm-hmm so it it's stuff like that where I, you know, I felt like I've had to really kind of read people a lot more. I won't say I'm the best at it, but there's a lot of intuition that comes into it where you, you, you have to be kind of on it all the time.

And uh, and that's something that's just, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. Cuz I just want to go somewhere and just be normal and just like not have to worry about that stuff. Can we just have a normal conversation, you know, it's like, that's, that's what I, I hope for. And I want, and it's, it's hard to get there sometimes.

And it is exhausting. Like that was such a good point. I like almost jumped when you said I like yes, like it, it can be really exhausting. I think that's. Part of the reason why some of us kind of shy away from our families in a lot of ways. It's like, man, like, you know, when you visit mom and you visit dad, it can be exhausting.

And it can just be like, just life sucking. Not because we don't love our parents. We do, but it's just like the patterns that have been established and the way that conversations happen and just like the, the conflict there just can, can really be, yeah, just exhausting, like you said, I don't think there's a better word for it.

Um, I, I know I've felt that at times, and I do make an effort to like stay in touch with my mom and stay in touch with my dad and to, you know, visit them and spend time with them. But, uh, but I have to admit there's sometimes that like hesitance to go that route and going to what you said too, on a related note with resolutions, um, that was rare to see growing up for me as well.

And in a lot of ways it still is, but. At least in the family scenario with my parents. But one thing I wanted to say, just give people hope is that when you build your own marriage, and this is you too, man, like that something so beautiful in your own marriage is that you can learn to resolve conflict while it's a skill and you can learn to.

And I know, you know, you've definitely learned that I know you're, you know, successful businessman. So I know you don't get to where you've gotten without navigating some conflict. And so I, that's one thing that's, I think really good and hopeful that people need to hear, especially who maybe aren't married yet.

Is that. You can actually change that dynamic in your own marriage. Like you're not doomed to repeat the cycle, the patterns of dysfunction that happen in your family. And I think one of the most beautiful things in my marriage that I've experienced is that, um, you know, I guess on a day to day level is just that we can actually resolve things.

You know, we still argue like, like there's disagreements, there's conflict there's times where it's just like, it kind of sucks to be married. It's it's like hard, you know, you're, there's some suffering involved. I won't pull any punches on that. Um, but then you can resolve it and, and that can look like, you know, in an hour or two or maybe the next day, and then the relationship can actually improve after that.

Uh, which is kind of a weird thing to say, as someone who comes from a broken family, cuz it's just like that wasn't modeled for us, but I'm living that right now. And I have to say it's extremely beautiful. So a lot of hope for everyone listening. Any final thoughts on. Relationships in particular before we move on.

Yeah. And, and actually to kind of build on kind of what you were saying there, please. I actually got like two, two stories about that. So again, kind of growing up, a lot of things were not very well resolved in my family. Like even as a kid, when my parents were kind of going through the divorce and, you know, I was living in two separate homes, you know, I just like the way that , that my mom and my dad like, would, would talk with each other was, you know, a lot of arguments on the phone.

And so, you know, it'd be, you know, this is when we started having cell phones and stuff. And so they're on the cell phone, you know, you yelling at each other and I'm sitting in the, you know, passenger seat, just like just taking all the tension in. Right. But then, you know, they would hang up and then, you know, someone would, you know, get back on line.

Oh, don't you hang up on me? You know, it just, it was always that kind of like tumultuous. That was, that was the bad example I saw. But, um, it was when I was actually living with that, that family Gabriel and Sarah one time, uh, you know, I was just getting home. Cause I was in college at the time getting home from school and you know, I was kind of in the house.

You know, Gabriel and Sarah were arguing about something. I don't know what it was. I, I can't even remember the context, but I just remember like, Ooh, okay, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm just gonna not be here. Cause I don't, you know, just, this is private, but also, you know, I just, whatever, I just kind of had those same vibes as like my parents are arguing.

Right. Let's just leave the room and not deal with it. But you know, I, I left, I was downstairs. I was working on my homework and stuff and um, you know, a few minutes later Gabriel came down, uh, and he was talking with me and he said, Hey, I just wanna let you know, like, this is what we're arguing about. This is how we resolved it.

You know, this is what we're gonna, you know, gonna be doing. And, and I just remember like, when he like told me that I was just like, okay, like, uh, weirdo, thank you very much for sharing that, you know, it's like, to me, it was just so like, why are you telling me. Right. And, and for me that's been something that I've actually held onto for, you know, so, so well, because I, I feel like that was probably one of the first times that I actually saw, you know, like a just real resolution.

Wow. You know, really seeing people come together to say like, Hey, we disagree on something. We have an argument, but we're gonna come to a place where, where we both agree on it. Right. We're gonna, you know, there's apologies that may have been had, or someone compromise and saying, Hey, I'm gonna try and do this better next time.

And, and for me, that's been, you know, like a, a really good example for, you know, how I want to be able to have my relationships, you know, even, even in a married sense, um, you know, be, I want us to actually have reconciliation and that's something for me that, you know, I, I really want to model in, in my family life.

Um, you know, in the future, when I have my family. And the other thing, you know, I just wanted to mention another really cool thing that to actually give me practice for a lot of this was, um, you know, going to sacrament of reconciliation and, and for me, confession, you know, I'm a convert to the faith. Um, I converted when I was in high school and I've had some ups and downs in my faith and, you know, there' a point in, you know, in my life where, you know, even my relationship with God, I just felt like, you know, how could God love a sinner like me?

I I'm ju I just do terrible wicked things. Like how could he love a person like me? And, and it was through some great people's help to really help me see, like, you know, through this sacrament reconciliation, we truly are forgiven. You know, I can go in there and say, you know, you know, God, these are the things that I've done.

The ways that I've sin against you. I'm sorry, please. Forgive. And, and through the priest, you know, God says, I forgive you and I absolve you ever sin. You know, and for me like that, you know, I go to, I go to confession often, cuz I'm a sin, but at the same time, it really has been helpful to give me actual practice in, in a lot of ways.

And you know, there's been some times even at work where, you know, I messed up on something or I didn't do something I was supposed to and I've actually told people say, Hey, I'm sorry, I messed that up. And it's so funny. It's so funny that the number of times that I've done that it throws people off. Wow.

That's, that's not common for people to admit that they did something. Yeah. You know, and, and that's the hard part about doing it because it's like, well, if I admit that I'm wrong, then what's gonna happen. Mm-hmm . Mm. And, and thankfully again, through seeing it in a lot of really good ways through friends or family, or even through, you know, the church it's been really helpful and giving me the confidence to.

Yeah, we can actually, you know, heal from this. We can actually recover from a lot of this. Beautiful. Yeah, no, that's um, no, it's so hopeful and it's such a better alternative to kind of the norm, right. Which leads to nowhere, but more frustration, more anger, more just layered on woundedness. If that makes sense.

It's just like deeper and deeper and yeah, it is just so sad. It's one of the saddest things. I think that I see, I mean, there's so many sad things in our world, but one of them is just like seeing people who have been so wounded, so traumatized and they become so bitter and so angry and then they become more wounded and more traumatized.

And it's just like this whole, like these layers upon layers. And it's so sad to me, that, to heal from that it's possible. I really believe. But it's gonna take a lot of work. And so I think like the approach that you're advocating for here, um, allows us to kind of like go into that woundedness and resolve some of it, at least by being, you know, admitting when we're wrong, being humble, taking ownership, offering forgiveness ourselves.

I mean, it's just so freeing and, and even, you know, seeking out people we've heard. And I know, you know, the 12 step programs do this a lot, but just like the whole making amends and I've experienced so much freedom in that. Like whether it's with friends or, you know, maybe people in the past that I've harmed in some way, like going back and saying like, Hey, I'm so sorry.

Like, this was so wrong of me to do this. Like, will you forgive me for people who maybe aren't used to, like that sort. What sounds like flower, flowery language um, that can be kind of a weird thing to do, but man, it is so freeing and it sounds like you've experienced the same. And I think that is such a better path to take.

And it ends up where we're not walking around with like, yeah, all these wounds attached to us in, in the same way that maybe someone who just be allows themselves to become bitter and angry. Uh, does. Yeah. And, and I think too, what's, what's helpful is even in some of my language that I use, you know, again, when, whenever I've done something wrong, you know, I will go to someone and I say, Hey, I did this wrong.

I, I go into it. I say my apology, I'm sorry. And then I do follow it up with, will you forgive me? Beautiful. And I, I think because, because what I've seen is usually if someone just says, Hey, I'm sorry, it leaves it open ended. Right. Did the other person receive it? Did the other person. You know, do, are they gonna forgive you?

And, and you know, a lot of times you hear, oh, it's okay. It's okay. Right. If I bump someone, oh, Hey, I'm sorry. You know, I'm, I'm gonna do that. But if, if I really, you know, do something, you know, terrible, or, or I wound somebody and I ask them, you know, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? Because then it makes it very clear, like I'm asking for forgiveness.

Hmm. Please, will you forgive me? And, and it puts the ball in their court and it's tough because, you know, usually we don't like to live in that attention. So, you know, sometimes we might say, yes, I forgive you. Right. We wanna resolve the, the issue. But, but if the other person, you know, really does take that time and say, yes, I do forgive you again.

That freedom that comes from that. And I, I really do think that that brings reconciliation. Yeah. And, and you can really see, Hey, you know, there we've resolved this thing that's between us and it doesn't have to fester there. It doesn't attention. Doesn't doesn't have to be it's it's not the elephant in the room, right?

Yeah. You know, and so that's, that's where I, I feel like even some of the language for other people, this might be natural, but for us who it's not natural for, we gotta practice and we gotta practice and we gotta get better at it. And I think using our language the way that we say things, I think that's really important part of that practice.

Hundred percent and like, say it in the mirror. if you need to, like, I, yeah, I won't go into this too much, but I just remember growing up, like my family, wasn't very expressive in a lot of ways, you know, my mom was more affectionate for sure than my dad. It's probably typical. But even with our words, like, I remember even language being somewhat limited.

That might sound kind of funny, but you know, we. Say things like, oh, thank you so much. Or there wasn't really a lot of emphasis, a lot of warmth, so to speak, um, at least in the way that I talked. And eventually when I learned like, man, that's like a really good way to treat people and I wanted to be like that.

It felt so awkward. so, uh, so yeah, maybe even for anyone out there who's feeling this or experienced that like practice in the mirror, like, start with someone who, you know, maybe it's not like that big of a deal, uh, situation where you, you maybe hurt someone, but it's something you still wanna apologize for.

That might be a little awkward, might feel weird, but as you do it more, you become better at it. And I wanted to use this opportunity, Craig, if it's okay. Like parents listening. If you recognize how difficult life has been for your children because of your broken marriage and the divorce or separation or whatever situation you're in my challenge to you is to do what Craig said, like, apologize.

I could hear people kind of objecting to this. I clarify one thing you might think, well, my spouse is really the one to blame. I get that. Like, they certainly contributed to it. No doubt, like it takes two for sure. And in some cases, you know, there there's certainly cases where like one spouse has really to blame for the things that went down in the marriage.

But at the same time, we have to admit that, um, like I said, it does take two. And so even if one spouse was like absolutely wrong in what they did or what they said or whatever, we were still a part of it at some level. And so you. Take that ownership of your piece of the pie and apologize to your children.

I have to say like, your kids might not know what to say back to that. And that's okay. But that is powerful. Like, you know, if, if you experience that from a parent, then you know, how, how powerful that could be. And just the final challenge there when you do that. Ask them, you know, Hey, will you forgive me?

And if they're not ready, that's okay. Like give 'em some space, give 'em some time, maybe, you know, follow up with them in a few months or whatever timeframe is appropriate. But, but that's my challenge to parents out there is to, to say that to your kids, to apologize for everything that's come from the brokenness within your marriage.

And by the way, by doing that, you're not like condemning yourself to this being this like horrible person who harmed them. But you're really you're I think redeeming the relationship and you. Becoming an even better parent through that. And I know the thing that parents all want is like, we wanna love our children well, and, you know, be the best parent that we can be.

Like we, most of us would take a bullet for our kids. And so this is in a way taking a bullet for your kid by doing this really hard thing of bringing up a difficult topic, apologizing and asking for forgiveness. So that's my challenge to your parents out there. I wanna change direction in the conversation a little bit, Craig, um, when it comes to healing and growing, uh, what were, what were some of the things like maybe two, three things that really helped you cope and, and heal the most?

Yeah, I, I think one, uh, one thing in particular, uh, one of the obvious things that's really helped me is counseling, uh, having a good counselor, um, to really be able. Talk about the wounds that I have in a safe place. Um, you know, that, that's one of the things with, with the trauma, like a parent's divorce, what, you know, our body response to that.

So uniquely, you know, our, our brain can com compartmentalize something and then, you know, suppress that, or, you know, you know, kind of put layers upon that. So we don't think about those things, right? Because if something becomes overwhelming for us, you know, we might not, our minds not, might not know what to do with it.

So again, it compartmentalizes and suppresses, and it does a lot of goofy things. If we never go back to those things and really, you know, help shed lights into that, you know, really show like, you're, you, you are safe. You know, you are not experiencing these traumas anymore, or things like that. Like this isn't gonna work 100% of the time, but if we're able to address those things and talk about our wounds and our trauma, uh, we're able to recover from those things, uh, a bit better.

And so true. Yeah. First thing here is just counseling. Um, I, I think that's and finding a good counselor too, because, you know, and I, I don't know this for sure, but I've heard stories of, you know, some counselors they do recommend divorce and, or they do recommend other, you know, maybe not so good habits of things to do.

Um, and so, you know, having a trusted counselor, um, that you can, you know, you know, trust that's really important. So that's, that's one thing. Another thing for me, that's really been helpful for, uh, healing was when I went on a retreat last year. Uh, and it was kind of really focused on this again, it was with that group life giving.

You know, for me, I had been looking for ways to like find healing in this particular area. And you know, that first day of retreat, you know, we started off and, you know, for me, I just felt like a, a, a wind up toy or something like that was just like, so just like tense and stuff like that. And when we started the retreat, you know, there was a gal who was playing music for us, and she comes from a household of divorce as well.

And she was playing the song. It was a, it's a really fun, cool story, but, you know, again, long story short, she was playing. And, uh, the first song that she played, she actually broke down crying because of the song, the beauty of the song. And when she started crying, I know at least for myself and many other people in the room, we all just started crying with her.

And, and for me, that was really, you know, it, it was on that retreat that I first, I felt like the first time I got permission. To feel and, and really got that permission to say like, you know, someone just telling me, Hey, you know what you experienced? It's not okay. You know, and, and anyone else who goes through this, that's one of the things that I remind them, because I hear things when I've talked to other people, oh, you know, they did this, but it's okay.

You know, and, and I, I pause and I just say, it's not okay because it's not every child deserves a good home with both a mom and a dad, you know, that's what they deserve. That's what I deserve. And I didn't get that. And that's, that's a tragedy. That's sad. Yeah. We should be upset about that. And so, you know, for, for me, really just being able to acknowledge and feel my emotions, um, was, was also in just getting that permission.

That was something that was really big for me because I, I, I really came to see like, Hey, One it's not okay. And I it's okay with not being okay. You know, for, for me, you know, being in a place where it's like, you know, I got, I got problems because of this. Yeah. You know, it's, it's not like it's gonna be like this forever.

I don't want it to be like this forever. So I, I can do stuff to change this. I can change this. So again, it just, that was one of those big things that really just opened up the flood gates for me, just to like, let it go and to really start to look for healing. And then the last thing, and the last thing I'll say here was, um, having really good examples of like relationships and like even a family life, that family that, um, that I mentioned a number of times, Gabriel and Sarah, they've just been so fantastic for me.

I, I think that I look back on a lot of where I've come and a lot of growth that I've had in my life. I really look back to that year that I got a chance to live with them. because I got to see, you know, a mom and a dad raising two and three kids, you know, they have nine kids now. It's beautiful. Wow. But, but they are in that similar mission of raising their kids.

They are building a home of safety and security. You know, I, I got a year to really stew in that and really see what it's like, you know, to have a functional family. And to me, a lot of those things that happened during that year, uh, it really planted a lot of really good seeds for me to where now, as, as time went on, you know, and, and I'm actually working in this healing, I can go back to those moments.

I can go back to those seeds that were planted and I can see the fruit that it's, it's starting to bear in my life. It TA it took me a long time, but really just being in a good, safe environment was, was so healing for me. To really just to seek that freedom, to experience it and just to work in it, you know, they, they gave me a lot and I'm always thankful for them.

Beautiful, such good points. And within those points are like great advice, like great things that anyone listening right now who feels broken, especially because of the brokenness within your family, you can do all these things and, and that's beautiful. Um, so thank you for going through that. I was curious, the musician was that Emily who sang this song.

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Shout out to Emily care. If you're listening right now, , uh, she, she's a beautiful woman and her and her husband are awesome. Uh, we, we're part of like a marriage group with the two of them. So, uh, yeah, they're both great. And so shout out to you guys. Thanks for mentioning that. Kirk, I'm curious with, you know, you being on this path of healing and growth and just the amount of time and effort you've put into this, um, how is your life look different now?

Like obviously it's still work in progress, of course, but I'm curious, like how, how have you changed. Yeah. Uh, I think one of the big ways that I've really changed is, and I've been, and this is the big point of change for me too in my life is to allow other people in. I, once, uh, I was the last retreat that I was on.

We had one of the speakers who was talking about the difference between transparency and vulnerability. For me, I felt like a lot of my life I've been able to be transparent. You know, I'm able to save the things that were going on, but I, I didn't allow myself to be vulnerable. I didn't allow myself to be open to emotional connection with other people.

You know, people could ask me, Hey, you know, um, you know, tell me about your parents' divorce. And I could just like ripple off all the facts and all the things that happened, but I didn't get to the point of saying like, and when this happened, this hurt me. You know, and, and having to, you know, do those kinds of things.

You know, I didn't like that when I was a kid, it stressed me out or, you know, just kind of allowing myself to, to share in the wounds that I have. You know, I kind of look at it to give an example. Uh, I always, I was related to the movie, the beauty and the beast where like the beast, you know, what does he tell bell?

You know, he says, you can go anywhere in this entire castle, except for you. Can't go to the west wind. Don't go there. And, and for me, that's, that's what I felt like when a lot of ways where it's like, people can have all parts of me, but this is the one part that you can't have. You know, whether it's relationships with friends or family, or even God, you know, you can have all this other parts of my life, but you can't have this.

Oh. And I think the biggest part that's really changed for me is I've been allowing for people to come into my life and to. Thanks essentially coming to the west wing. And, uh, and that's been one of the bigger, bigger changes, uh, for me that I've really seen in my healing, because what that has done for me is it's, it's helped me to see, I can trust other people.

Mm-hmm I can, I can rely on other people. You know, I, uh, uh, I remember one time I was just having a really rough go, I was going through a bad breakup and I called my dad on the phone and I asked him, you know, dad, could you stay the night with me at my apartment? You know, he lives about an hour away. And I was so nerve wracked to ask my dad.

And then he said, yes. And, and that was something that was so healing for me to really, you know, see, like I asked my dad for something that I needed. And he came and we spent the whole night talking, we watched movies, we got wings and all that kind of stuff, you know? Nice. And, and it wasn't, it wasn't like this super huge emotional moment in my life, but at the same time, like it was, yeah.

You know, I needed my dad. He was like, and so, you know, just over my course of my healing, I've just been able to see, I can open up to people and sometimes they'll let me down, but they also might not. And, and I give people the chance giving people the chance to rise to the occasion has been something that's been hard.

And, and I still struggle with, but at the same time, I've been able to kind of start to rewrite that because there's been a lot of cases where they have done it for me. So good, man. You're, you're inspiring to me, man. Uh, you should see all the notes I'm taking. It's great. This is great stuff. This is really good.

Flipping gears a little bit. Uh, do you hate your parents? No, okay. I always ask that and it always got to similar response. It's like, no, no, we don't hate our parents. We, we love our parents, but we can still talk about this stuff that we've been through with the hope of ultimately what I want is a better relationship with my mom and my dad.

Uh, not, not, not a worse one. And so if they were listening right now, uh, what would you want them to know? Yeah, I, I think with my dad, uh, over the past couple years, I've actually grown a lot closer with my dad, uh, and, and really been able to talk a lot about these things that I've experienced and I've felt.

Uh, and so for my dad, I would just say, you know, thank you for, uh, being heroic in, in being there for me being present. Uh, my dad, uh, I remember years ago, I was talking to my dad around right before father's day and I was trying to understand his story and I just, I was learning about him and it hit me.

When his mom and dad, my grandparents, when they divorced his dad abandoned the family. And so my dad has never had an example, you know, of a strong father figure in his life. We have my step grandfather, his name's pops, you know, we love him and he's done so many great things for our family, but my dad didn't always have that, you know, that father figure in his life.

Mm. And, you know, to see my dad do the exact opposite of what his father did, even though my parents divorced, my dad stood around, stayed around. And so for me, I just, I just say, thank you to him. Um, thank you for listening to me and really just helping me, uh, on my journey of healing. Um, so for my dad, thank you, uh, for my mom, uh, it's, it's a little tougher because, uh, I haven't spoke to my mom in over a year.

And that was actually a choice that I had made, you know, coming off of when I went on a retreat, uh, you know, the lifeing ones retreat when I was on it myself, you know, I came back from a retreat and, um, I, you know, I asked for some space for my mom because there's, I, I started to realize that there was a lot of anger that I have towards my mom.

Um, and there's a lot of healing that I need to go through with that relationship. And, and for me, I'm not. So for my mom, I would say like, I'm not taking this time to hurt you to, to punish you, but I'm just trying to take this time right now to heal. So that way I can come back and, and try and have a relationship, uh, with you.

I I'm, I'm trying, I'm working hard on it and, you know, I, I, yeah, so that's one of the things that, um, yeah, it's, it's tough, uh, tough to have. Cause like I've never really had a relationship with my mom. So, you know, if, if I can heal that. Come back and find a relationship that we can have. It's probably not gonna look the same as it used to be sure, but, but if I, if I could make it to something that I, I want it to be, that's what I'm trying for.

That makes so much sense. And, um, there's hope, man. I I've been through that, um, with my dad on occasion where, you know, I think I won a year, year and a half as well without talking to him just cuz yeah, I just didn't like the way that he was acting, didn't agree with the things he was doing and the way he was treating people.

And so, um, I explained it to him like, Hey, not, not gonna be talking to you because these things and I would, I ultimately want a relationship with you. And so I told him, you know, as soon as I see some sort of change or transformation, then uh, I wanna resume this and we did. And so, uh, you know, I wish the same for you and I hope it can improve and get better.

Um, but uh, yeah, there's nothing wrong to anyone listening too. There's nothing wrong with, uh, taking some space for yourself. Um, yeah, that can be, it might seem like a selfish thing, but it can actually be an extremely selfless thing. Um, or it can be something that is necessary to put a boundary in place, um, in order to help another person learn how to treat you well and learn how to love you.

Well, because if we put up with bad behavior, we're somewhat to blame, you know? And so there can be a lot of good. What I've learned is there, there can be a lot of good in setting those boundaries and kind of having that tough love, um, with the long view in mind that you ultimately hopefully can have that good relationship, but it takes work.

And so I, uh, wish you guys the best and count of my prayers view. Of course, if people wanna connect with you, get your advice, what's the best way for them to do. I have an Instagram account. Uh, I've been off it a little bit here, you know, over Len and Easter time. Um, but I do have my Instagram account. Um, it's, it's not a, a clever handle or anything it's, uh, Craiger or Craiger Soto.

So Craig, ER, S OTO, um, you can reach, reach me there. Um, reach out to me, feel free to message or follow and all that kind of. Um, uh, I do also have a, uh, Twitter account. Uh, it mostly is a live tweeting of stranger things season four. So just be ready for that. No spoilers, but, uh, again, you can, uh, reach out to me there, uh, as well.

Awesome. Thanks so much, man. I really appreciate your time. You're wisdom. Um, you've learned so much and you're just a wealth of, uh, knowledge information. Thanks for everything that you're doing to help people like us who come from broken families like it does. It makes a huge difference. I wanna give you the last word and, uh, just wondering, like what words of encouragement, uh, advice would you give to someone who right now is listening?

They feel broken. They feel stuck in life because of everything that's happened within their family, their parents' marriage falling apart. Um, what advice, what encouragement would you give to them? Yeah, I, I think the advice I'd give is, you know, even for the things that really, you know, help me it's, it's okay to not be okay.

Uh it's okay. To feel like everything's overwhelming. Because in a lot of ways, it is. I, I would also say that your life doesn't have to be like this and that you do have the opportunity to change it. It takes a lot of hard work, uh, and it's not gonna happen overnight. Um, you know, for me, I, I know my journey's gonna be something that's gonna probably, you know, go over a lifetime for me.

At the same time, there, there is hope for change. We have our own agency and, and we can, can make our lives the way that we envision it. Um, there's a lot of ways, uh, that I wasn't taught how to do things. Well, I don't know how to go on vacation. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take vacations and I'm gonna try and figure it out and be bad at it.

You know, it's, it's okay to be bad at something and, and just try and do better every single time we can make incremental changes and, and we can grow. And then the last thing, uh, I'll say, just for encouragement, I'm sure that there's, there's things that have happened in your life, where, you know, friends or even family, your parents have let you down.

Don't let that be the only control in your life. If, if you open yourself up and it doesn't go the way that you wanted to, and there's a lot of pain in her that comes from it. , that's not how everyone's gonna be. That's not how, you know, every situation's gonna be, it's not final. It's not universal. You are not broken.

You are not dysfunctional. You are not the worst. You are loved. You are deserving of love and, and you deserve the world because you're here. And, you know, I, I speak on this sense from, from the God side of things. God loves you. And he wants to give the world to you. He wants to give all of himself to you.

And, uh, sometimes we just gotta get out of his way and receive the love. He's given us

to any of you parents listening. I wanna reiterate my challenge to apologize to your children and a few tips on how to do this. If you're not ready to do it face to face, then write them a letter or send them an email. A letter is best, but an email works too. Don't expect an immediate response. Give them time to kind of chew on it to process it.

They're probably gonna be pretty shocked that you're even apologizing because this is just not the. Try not to explain a ton what happened or make any excuses or Casy blame. Like if you need to give some important details, that's fine, but you're not here to make an argument. This is not a court case.

You're here to apologize. And so instead focus on your children's experience of everything that's happened, the pain and the problems, it caused them. And that's it and apologize for whatever role you played in causing that. And I promise you in the end, it's gonna help you heal and improve your relationship with your child or with your children.

Now, if you're someone who comes from a broken family and you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to share your story. But before I share those, some of the benefits of sharing your story are these. Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level, makes your brain healthier.

Writing your story is also healing. There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, and they're happier sharing your story with someone else too. Like us is actually additionally healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier and also it gives guidance. Your story gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling. So if you wanna share your story, here's how you do it. Just go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/story. And the form is gonna guide you in telling a short version of your story.

And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. So go ahead and share your story now@restorministry.com slash story or click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restorministry.com slash 70. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe.

And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#073: Prepare for Your Marriage, Not Just Your Wedding | Fr. Daniel Ciucci & Deacon Colin Coleman

Whether you’re single, dating, or engaged, your wedding day will be a beautiful experience. However, planning it is very consuming. As a result, it’s easy to prepare more for the wedding day than for a lifetime of marriage. 

Marriage preparation is meant to refocus you and prepare you not only for your wedding day, but for your marriage. In this episode, we discuss marriage prep and:

• The main cause of dysfunction and divorce, according to my guests

• What can be done to better help people from broken families to build great marriages

• A sneaky thing that can sabotage anyone’s marriage

• An assessment to help you understand the reality of your relationship heading toward marriage

• Advice and encouragement for leaders of marriage prep

If you hope to be married one day or you lead marriage prep, this episode is for you. 

Get the Marriage Guide and Talk

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Father Daniel Ciucci

  • Email: fatherdaniel@mpbdenver.org

  • Homily Links

    • Homily on Divorce & Annulments

    • Success is Fidelity

    • Fullness of Years

    • Correct Your Spouse

    • Invite Jesus to Your Wedding

• Deacon Coleman

  • Email: deacon.coleman@archden.org

  • Office Number: 303-715-3259

• Booklet: Pure Intimacy by Jason Evert

• Talk: Green Sex by Jason Evert

• The Power of Prayer by Fr. Mike Schmitz

• Tips for Praying by Fr. Mike Schmitz

• Prayer For Beginners by Peter Kreeft

• Time for God by Fr. Jacques Philippe

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Whether you're single dating or engaged, your wedding day is such a beautiful and special day. I know mine was, it was such a fun day where we had almost everyone that we love in the same place at the same time. There's probably never a time in my life where that will happen. Again. However, planning that day can be extremely time consuming, really stressful and definitely expensive.

And in many ways it can take over your life. It certainly felt that way for my wife, bridged and me, and because wedding planning is so consuming, we often prepare more for the wedding day than we do for a lifetime of a marriage, which is obviously backwards, but that's where marriage preparation comes in.

Marriage prep or premarital counseling is meant to refocus. You. On the marriage, which is naturally more important than the celebration. And so in this episode, we discuss what marriage prep looks like and why it's important. We share the main cause of dysfunction and divorce. According to my guests, we hit on what can be done to better help people who come from broken families to build great marriages where they're not just surviving and staying together, but actually thriving.

We expose a sneaky thing that can really sabotage anyone's marriage. We talk about an assessment to help you understand the reality of your relationship heading toward marriage. And finally, my guests offer advice and encouragement for leaders of marriage prep programs. So if you hope to be married one day, or maybe you lead marriage prep, this episode is for you.

Keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70. Today I have two guests on the show. The first one is father Daniel CCI.

He probably has the shortest bio I've ever seen, which certainly does not sum him up as a person. But here it is, father Daniel has been a Catholic priest for five years and he serves as pastor of most precious blood parish in Denver, Colorado. My other guess is deacon Collin Coleman. He was baptized a Catholic, but he wasn't raised as a Catholic.

And he first encountered the faith in our Lord in a real way at age 21, just before he married his wife, Maria, after getting married, deacon Coleman helped found the St Vin's youth movement in New Zealand. He's a Kiwi in his accent is awesome. I'm excited for you to experience that. And then he was asked by the Bishop to join the diocese and youth team as director a position he held for two years.

Desiring to deepen his faith in his relationship with God deacon Coleman and his wife joined the community of the be attitudes in 1993, joining in a be attitude house in France, that was only a few miles away from Lord's a popular pilgrimage center. They were then asked to help found the be attitude house in Christ church, New Zealand, where they stayed for nine years.

They were then led to the United States to assist in the mission in Denver, Colorado, where he serves the parish as a deacon at St. Catherine of Sienna. On behalf of the archdiocese deacon Coleman teaches and provides formation for engaged couples, preparing for marriage as part of his responsibilities with the B attitude community.

He assists in the formation of new members in ongoing formation of existing members. Deacon Coleman was ordained at deacon in 2011 and has been married to Maria for the past 33 years. And they've been blessed with seven children, four daughters, two sons, and one son waiting for them in heaven. He's currently working at the archdiocese in marriage and family life office as the marriage and NFP specialist.

Now, if it wasn't obvious up to now, uh, I wanna give a little disclaimer, we're talking to a Catholic priest and a Catholic deacon. Now we try hard to make this podcast for anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs. That being said, we let our guests share their beliefs. And so today you're gonna again hear it from a Catholic priest and a Catholic DEA and who naturally share their worldview.

Now, if you're not Catholic or perhaps you're not even Christian or you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. And my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. I guarantee that you'll benefit from this episode. Even if you take all the God parts out, and if you disagree with something that we say in this episode, there's nothing wrong with that.

We offer some resources at the end to learn more about what we're discussing, because so often when we disagree with things or with people that we don't really understand, we don't really look into both sides of the argument. I think we owe it to ourselves and to the people on the other side of the table to really look into both sides of an issue.

Now, with that said, I did wanna mention that there's two types of deacons in the Catholic church. I didn't want you to be confused to this episode. There are permanent deacons and transitional deacons, transitional deacons are not married because they're on the way to become priests. And so unless they're a part of a different writer sect that allows married priests, they aren't gonna get married.

Permanent deacons can be married because they're not on the way to become priests. And so the deacon in this interview is a permanent deacon. So he'll be talking about his wife. I just didn't want you to be confused. So with all that taken care of, here's my conversation with father Daniel and deacon Coleman,

father, and deacon. Thank you so much for being here.

I'm

happy. Thanks for the invite.

Yeah. Good to be with you. Well, I guess father,

thank you for letting us come to your house and oh, you're record here. This is great. I wanna jump in, uh, father, if you would. Uh, what do we mean when we say marriage prep for anyone who maybe doesn't really know

what we're talking about.

Beautiful. Um, so there's actually a lot of underlying presuppositions for why do we need to prepare ourselves for the sacrament of holy matrimony, right. With baptism, right? The, uh, parents and godparents get prepped, but the kid doesn't get prepped. Right. Thank goodness. That would be hard. Yeah. Um, so then why does the couple need to be prepped?

They're the ministers of the sacrament of holy Mamo. And so the husband and wife to be the bride and groom, they're the ones who, uh, who contract marriage, legally speaking. Mm-hmm . And so it's their own will their own consent. And so when we say marriage prep, I begin marriage prep by actually asking them, can you tell me what an annulment is?

Mm interesting. And which is, some people think is a really depressing way to start, but , I, I totally redeem it. You know, we say an annulment is a declaration. Well, first of all, they say, they like to say Catholic divorce. Like this is a, a special kind of marriage that like, you know, if you pay enough money, you can get it canceled so you can get remarried.

So, you know, whatever. And it's like, Nope does not work that way. Yeah, right. An annulment is a declaration that one, or both of the parties had a defect in their will. Mm-hmm in terms of their expectations of, into solu ability. The fact that marriage, uh, lasts till death to we part. exclusivity. I give myself to you and to only you, a life of sacrifice, a life of children are you open, uh, to the children that God gives you.

And then within each of those, that will needs to be fostered mm-hmm , that's what marriage prep is, is strengthening the will that they bring to the altar. Anyone can say yes on the day of their wedding. Mm-hmm anyone can even mean yes, on the day of their wedding, but everyone brings both strengths and weaknesses or defects of will to the altar as well.

Mm-hmm . And so marriage prep is trying to strengthen those, define them, strengthen the defects of will to make the couple annulment proof. That's what I also tell them. And they're sometimes they're like, whoa, that's intense. And I was like, but that's great. Cuz you love each other. Yeah. I didn't sign up for this.

Does that make sense? Yeah. No, absolutely. Roundabout way of saying, when we say marriage prep, we're strengthening the will the consent to be able to re more fruitfully, receive the blessing of God through the mediation of the church, but they themselves, the bride and the groom are the SAC. The ministers of the sacrament of holy matrimony makes so

much

sense and we prepare for so many things in life and it makes sense that marriage would need to be one of 'em.

And it's really sad that we don't prepare more. I mean, you were in seminary for years preparing to become a priest and deacon, you went through your own training as well, but it seems like there's just this mad rush to the finish line for a lot of married couple or engaged couples, I should say. Um, and sadly the marriage might suffer because we're so focused on the wedding.

We're just so focused on our future life together, not the actual sacrament. anything you would add about, um, you know, what marriage prep is and why it's important.

Sure. In that, in that way, you know, that idea of strengthening the Willers is allowing the couple also to say yes, freely in that way so that they know that when I say yes, uh, in, in freedom that I am saying yes, until death do we part mm-hmm and so it's preparing them to, as they enter into, um, give themselves to each other, through their vows that they're, um, saying yes to all of these things, good times in bad for better, or for worse sickness and health.

Um, is those moments where, yeah, because of the daily situation, we will be challenged. But my goal is to bring, as we would say through the church, bring my, my spouse to heaven that knowing that we are die, going to die, that, that this idea of being able to live with this person and, um, And be a source of really life in the community and say, say, um, say yes, in a, in a free mm-hmm so that, and our will needs to be strengthened in that.

And it's, it's, it's so important. And so being able to, um, prepare them for that moment, which is also difficult as well, as you were saying, they're caught up with so many organizational details. Yep. Um, and the Instagram culture that they're caught up with is, uh, they often forget that idea of what my yes is actually saying.

And so, and it's a real gift that the church is offering this in, in a way that it does give the, the opportunity for couples to reflect mm-hmm they have the time to actually say, well, what am I saying yes to, and am I doing it freely?

Yeah, no, it's so good. It's, it's so necessary. And going back to that point of like, why it's important.

I, I don't remember the statistics, perhaps you two might, but those couples who do go through any sort of marriage prep, premarital counseling, there are odds of having a successful marriage. Uh, is much higher or at least from what I've heard, do you guys recall the statistics? If, if not that's okay. So

each demographic is depends on the data that you see, right?

Oh, interesting. Yep. Um, but the, the Catholic divorce rate is pretty much the same as the, as the state mm-hmm , but we, so that go also goes back to do I have the will to carry out what I'm trying to live? I have the experience cuz I lead lead some, um, couples through marriage preparation and about three to five years later, they'll give me a call.

Not everyone. Thanks Peter. God. Yeah. But you know, um, one or two out of the hundreds that I deal with and I ask my first question and I ask them, is, were you able to implement some of the stuff that we went through in marriage prep and their answer is always no. Mm they, and so the idea of saying, yes, am I strengthening my will?

Am I in intentional in living out that, um, moment? Cause our will, if it's not, um, strengthened through practice is. Fail. Yeah. And so that idea of when we talk about divorce or marriages being successful, um, is, is encouraging couples to be intentional living out their vows as well.

Mm-hmm okay. No, that makes sense.

I went to Franciscan university and there's kind of this myth going around that we have like a higher divorce rate than maybe with the rest of society. I haven't been able to find any data on that. So it's just a myth when it comes to Francisco university alumni. But, um, it is true that there's still a lot of couples.

I know more than a handful at this point who they both went to this good Catholic university and now they're getting divorced and it's so sad to see that. And I'm sure you guys know people

like that as well. So yeah, I think there's a supposition that if you pray X amount of rosaries or go to at least two daily masses a week, therefore your marriage is guaranteed protected.

Yeah. You're like, uh, that's not, that's not how it works. Well, let's

say there for a second. What's the mismatch. You know, obviously there's a lot of brokenness. I think people bring into marriage and that certainly plays a big role in the issues that they face and whether or not it succeeds or not, they stay together.

They have, you know, hopefully a happy marriage, but yeah. What have you guys seen in marriages that they do maybe have some good formation. They do have this good background, but then somehow they end up in a position that they never thought they would be where they're getting divorced or things are just

really dysfunctional.

I think residually part of the culture, right? Go back to our grandparents. They came from a generation where, you know, he came back from world war II, saw some gal in, in the living room at his party and said, I'm gonna marry her. Yeah. And then they did. And then they got married three months later, they had maybe one to two meetings with the priest.

That was what marriage prep. But that came from a culture where you did what you said you were gonna do. You had a domestic life within the home. You came back, you know, mom and dad dwell together where things perfect. No, humanity's humanity. Mm-hmm but I think residually in the culture. The home life was so important.

There was such a gravitational pull, the ability to, um, you couldn't escape. Mm. You couldn't run to your phone. You couldn't stream media and whatever, and just run elsewhere. And so even just the regular domestic life, the, the, the San sanctifying, the home by vacuuming, sanctifying the home by paintings, the, the walls, right.

The regular daily life of work that even nowadays we hire that out. We have other people do. Yeah. Because we're so stressed. Yeah. We're so burdened. We're so whatever. And then I think couples feel really nowadays feel really difficult, bringing their hurt to each other. So then the home's no longer, even this place of communion that may have happened back then as well.

Right. In those days, you also kind of had the kind of grin and Barrett culture. Mm-hmm . And so that's not to say every. Everyone who was married before 1955 had an automatically sanctified marriage, right? No. Yeah, but again, divorce kind of public. The stigma of divorce is no longer, but I think that frees couples up to say, we need help.

Mm-hmm uh, and to go kind of, yeah. Seek the help that they need. Anyways. I don't what do you

have to do? Yeah. And just to segue onto that, I think that's that divorce is an option. Right. That idea of simply having it on the table is something, um, one of those, what I try and do anyway, is is that when we speak about vulnerability, that it's a very difficult thing for couples to accept.

And, um, you know, we, we dwell a bit, um, you know, and there's that passage in the Bible where, um, they were both naked yet. They had no shame mm-hmm we? Yeah, they were naked, but there was so much more to that, that they were totally exposed to one another. Mm. Right. They were able to be in their humanity before the other person without shame.

Yeah. Oh yeah. And as couples, they it's, it is very, and that's a lifelong process as well, to be able to continue to open, open up your heart to someone and, and leave it exposed. Mm-hmm, , it's scary. Right. It's, it's terrifying for, for some people, especially if they've lived through trauma and this, I, the other idea that, um, we try and reinforce as well is even though these couples yeah.

There, we have a, where we, we live a pious life. Being a gift to the other person, right? Are, are we really allowing ourselves to be that gift? Or are, are we expecting too much from the other person and not really voicing it? Are we actually able to bring, you know, as Christians, as Catholics, the person of Jesus Christ into the midst, rather than having that external faith of, well, I went to mass, but how did we seek communion as a couple mm-hmm and those times where I think there's a lot of neglect and, um, who they are as a couple.

And I think with the culture as it is today, um, there's that trap of becoming very functional as a couple. Mm-hmm like, we'll, we'll get we'll, we'll move in. Denver's expensive. Right. So we gotta live together. Yeah. Right. And, um, who needs a two bedroom when we can have a one bedroom and so, right. So we become sexually active and then, you know, I think we should make more of a commitment.

We should get a dog.

As a sign of undying love for each other. Yes. Right?

Yeah. But this is, you know, but what do you do for a dog? You look after it and it's very functional. Yeah. Yeah. Right. There's no, um, giving of yourself in that sense. Well, the dog loves me. Right. And it loves unconditionally will you feed you?

Don't feed that dog for three days and tell me how much that dog loves you. Yeah. Right. Um, and so these kind of things, um, where, you know, this natural, you know, um, when we're talking about the 1950s, there, there was this expectation of bringing children into the family. And so you, then you see your love yeah.

Manifested through, through, through that child. And so it's, you can't be manifested through a dog and I like dogs by the way. Yeah, me too. Yeah. But, um, you can't see it truly manifested and I think that's where couples, especially faith, we, and I'm doing ear quotes, faithful couples. Yeah. There's not that often, and it's not a reason, but it's one of the factors that I think there's no, there's not a vulnerability, but they, and so there's not that emotional connection.

There's more of a functional relationship. And so I always say people are generally annoying. Right. And so if you're living one, living with one , I was like,

thank you. even celebrates recognize that.

Yeah. but if you're living with someone by goodness, and if it's a function and if it's a functioning, functional relationship, those, uh, annoyances are just gonna become manifested.

And then yeah. Often the, the phrases said, I don't love you anymore.

Right? Yeah. Or you're not the person I fell in love with. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is more of a statement of my personal preference. Yeah. Than of you changed somehow. You're not

doing your job properly in the relationship.

Yeah. Mm-hmm and it's so funny that you brought up, um, you know, naked, without shame.

So many of these couples come to us already, you know, sexually active, whatever they met on Tinder, you know, um, whatever it. And they'll they'll come already have having tasted the fruits of those intimacies. Yeah. But then you ask them to pray together and it's so awkward. Yeah. Mm they're like, oh, I, I, they're afraid of being judged and you're like, but this is the person with whom you feel, you feel comfortable, you know, being naked literally.

Yeah. But it's not just physical nakedness. It's the, like, what are the other wounds who, you know, who's the embarrassing sixth grade version of me that you don't yet know about or, or my dysfunctional family behind me. Uh, and, and, and so they can kind of share a certain part of their life, but still kind of withhold the vulnerability, emotional, spiritual, whatever it may be.

Uh, and then that's, that's super preventative from whole, from communion with one another mm-hmm . And then to go back to the fifties, uh, round out this thought, I think you, you, in those days, a man and a woman went from a family and then formed a family. Mm. and that's the notion that we still have in the ceremony of the father giving away his daughter, that she's literally handed over as a prized jewel as a, uh, you know, a, a pinnacle of God's creation.

But so often we have either broken families like weddings. I always have to ask, like, what are the, what are the family dynamics when everybody shows up to this wedding, because rarely is it a bride and a groom coming from an intact family. And they seek to form that intact family. But again, in certain marriage prep, we're trying to strengthen the will so that they can will by God's grace to live that out in the daily, boring Tuesday mornings of, of marriage, not just Saturday nights and Friday nights, when, when everything's awesome.

Yeah, so good.

And you know, some, the majority of our audience comes from broken families. So I'm glad you're bringing that up. Thinking what you were saying before about kind of running the home or the family as like a business. Mm. I know it's honestly a tendency in me and I think in American culture, especially like type a people, people like me, um, yeah, that functional can be very tempting, especially cuz I like run, you know, a company.

Yeah. And then I run this nonprofit as well. So it's like, well, marriage is different. And our marriage counselor would like try to remind me of that. Like again and again, we've gone to marriage counseling. It's like this isn't a business. This isn't gonna be efficient. So I think it's an important reminder to, to hear, I did wanna go into, I know each of you have, um, your own form of marriage prep, so I'd love to learn kind of what that looks like.

Like if, if a couple listening right now were to go through it, what would they do? Uh, what, what's the agenda like? And so on

father,

you wanna start. So there's gonna be a lot of common eye cuz we both do ministry within the archdiocese of Denver and there's kind of prerequisite mm-hmm um, Requirements for that.

Um, so one would be the focus inventory, which a lot of couples are like, how did we do on the test? They want to know like X percentage. It is not a team. Yeah. Not a test. It's not, it's not gonna give you red light green light. Are you good to go or not? Yeah. Um, I kind of saw it like that, but I had to fight against that too.

I was like, wait, it's not a test. It's just like an indicator. And it's so funny cuz we even have instructions from that company to not give them the full results for a couple reasons one. Right, right. They don't want, you don't want them to quantify the relationship. Yeah. Like we're only, uh, 86% good on finances, but 62% on uh, extended family issues or whatever it is.

Yeah. It just kind of, it's an inventory that says, Hey, this couple based on their responses has less agreement around the area of finances, friends, hobbies, bonding, activities, whatever it is. and then the relationship comes to life. That's why I, as a celibate priest, I send them, uh, I, I go through their focus inventory once with them.

Mm-hmm and then I send them to another couple. I always say, I'm a really good mechanic. I just don't drive the car. Mm-hmm right. And so I don't have the driving skills, but I can fix a lot of things. I've seen a lot of things in the confessional. I've seen a lot of things in my office. I've heard a lot of things at 1130 at night when crap's going down and they call me, right?

Yeah. So I send them to couples who are living the life of holy matrimony, cuz I can provide a lot of the theology and the theory. But they also need that on the ground. So focus would be one thing. Natural family planning would be another thing. Um, again, I, uh, I send, we send that out elsewhere specialists.

Mm-hmm um, cuz there's a lot of biological needs now. Mm-hmm mm-hmm um, with, with that, would you explain FP for people who don't know? Yeah. Natural family planning. So even if, uh, for those who are non-religious, it's such an empowering tool for women, especially that way they don't have to be kind of the gatekeepers in the relationship or depend on, you know, chemicals or plastic to kind of in regards to contraception in regards to contraception.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, they don't have to depend on that to just kind of control the aspects of their life again, when they, when a couple says, I give myself to you fruit fully faithfully fruitfully forever. Part of that is I give you the gift of my ability to reproduce mm-hmm I give you my, my biological fity.

Mm, right. Mm-hmm . And so the church has, uh, a teaching around contraception that to withhold a portion of yourself. Is actually gonna spiritually sterilize the relationship as well. Plus the other way I like to explain it is, um, you know, if, if little Johnny gets to eat an Oreo, whenever he wants, even if he can metabolize that Oreo mm-hmm, , it's gonna change his character, even if it doesn't change his weight.

Hmm. And so I think so many, especially guys come into marriage thinking, oh boy, I get to be intimate as often as I want. Right. There's actually a question on the focus inventory that says, it's question number 10. I love it. Uh, it's my ex I, I expect that our, our life of intimacy will be affected by changes in mood and da, da, da, and like three other circumstances.

And without fail women always say yes, and men always say, no, , that's nice. And you're like, welcome to male and female I love it. So we have, we have those ingredients and then there's a theological retreat, uh, over the course of the pandemic. I'm not, I don't love online marriage prep. Mm-hmm cause I say your marriage doesn't happen online.

Why should your marriage prep happen online? And there are fair enough. Of course there's circumstances, uh, couples in the military, first responders, things like that, where, where their schedule is super taxing mm-hmm mm-hmm um, but even we have workarounds for that. So every now and again, online, the theological portion of marriage prep is, is fine.

I personally meet with them about five times mm-hmm um, and then we try to send them to an in-person marriage prep retreat mm-hmm which retreat experience that centralizes on prayer that centralizes on theology of the body, but in just in my meetings with them, I always start out with, um, great. Tell me about your last big fight.

Your LBF. And you get the couples that, you know, they don't mind throwing spaghetti against the wall, to the ones that are very cute. And they're like, oh father, we never fight we, we love each other. yeah. And I'm like, great. Uh when's the last time your blood pressure was raised. right. Like we can redefine the terms here.

Yeah. But often it's the ones that quote unquote don't fight, uh, that have kind of a more sinister difficulty, cuz it looks better on paper. And sometimes if you're always walking on eggshells or you come from a place where there's a lack of freedom to be expressive, mm-hmm, , there's a lack of freedom to, um, to bring up hard things conflict, right?

Not only are people are annoying, but, but my future spouse has a darkened intellect. A weakened will. And on top of those things is gonna from time to time be selfish and then I'm going to have to suffer from that. And so do I have the skills? The reason I ask about last big fight is I don't care about the fight.

I care about teasing out. What's important because at the center of a fight is what do I love? Mm what's important to me. Yeah. And does my, does my future spouse recognize that? Am I known by him or her? And then do we have the skills to communicate that if not, then let's go through it. And if we do, do we also have the skills to forgive because there is no fight that can't strengthen the relationship.

If there's the will to do it. Mm-hmm , if there's the will to strengthen that relationship, mm-hmm, just like, how do you build muscles? You break muscle fibers. Mm-hmm by lifting heavy weights and in the breaking and the repairing with good nourishment with good sleep, with good everything else, it actually comes back stronger.

And so fights are absolutely no problem. So I start out with that and then other, uh, modules, it just depends. I have them make a genogram. Yeah, I love this part of your, which is, uh, so they come and, and it's essentially a really complicated family tree that also shows kind of emotional lines and things like that.

Who, who doesn't talk to who or who loves who, or, or whatever, mm-hmm how much. And so I say, how much divorce is going on in this? How much alcoholism, how much, um, what's, what's the economic outlook on each of these families? Because again, you're not just marrying your fiance. You're getting the whole family too marrying the family.

And this whole family was part of their marriage prep long before they showed up in father's office. Mm-hmm . Right. That's what we call the remote marriage, prep, deacon. And, and I are the proximate marriage prep. Mm-hmm, where the, like, kind of the last, the last finishers with that. And so their concept of what marriage is of what marriage looks like of how to live it on a daily basis.

Mm-hmm right. May look very different than what gets preached to the pulpit or even what they hear within our office. Yeah. We talk about the role of sexual pleasure and marriage, which is kind of awkward in my first two or three couples. but it's like, heck if I, uh, I it's no longer awkward for me, but it's one of those, like if I get all like claiming and weird, then I don't, I I'm afraid that I, I would give the impression that, you know, sex is actually like gross, sturdy and disgusting, and God only puts up with it for more babies.

Right. Right. Which is so the opposite of theology of the body. Mm-hmm yeah. It's a botanical point of view. Exactly. And so, especially even couples that have already been engaging with each other sexually. , it's a really beautiful thing for them to experience validation from the church. Not only in their desires, even if they don't have the proper forum for it yet, but also to say, this is where this, this gift from God belongs mm-hmm and this is how, how you can put it to use in a way that's spiritually fruitful.

Mm-hmm go back to NFP, go back to Johnny. Johnny doesn't most parents don't let Johnny eat an Oreo whenever he darn well pleases mm-hmm . And so the beauty of living natural family planning is there are times to come together to be intimate. There are times to not, which then makes the couple yearn for each other and has the positive result of teaching men, especially to express physical non-sexual affirmation towards their, their wives.

Right. Mm-hmm . And so there's just so much genius in the life of the church that we're seeking to, um, add there. So yeah,

no, I agree. This is a whole idea of, um, Especially when they come to us, myself and father they're, they're already been formed in a way of, of how to think. And so this, this idea of the church's desire, when we speak about remote preparation, that's preparing the couple from their family and, and them seeing their family life flourish in marriage, but more than often, that's not the case.

And, and, you know, um, this, the horrible statistics of, of divorce, which is one and two. So even the idea of what love is. Yeah. Right. And then when we speak about love, the church has a beautiful, um, grace of that, especially, you know, if we really wanna even bring in the person of Jesus Christ, that all idea of self-sacrifice for, um, his church.

And so for, for, for myself, it's, it's similar with father, of course we have, you know, a certain criteria that we have to follow. Um, but for me, I really wanna establish a relationship with him as well. Mm-hmm to know. Because they do come in thinking, well, I've got a, and the first, often our first meeting is there is some paperwork involved, so it's a, and um, and then the focus, which literally looks like a test.

Yeah. Um, uh, and even though you say it many, many times, they'll come back and say, you know, did I pass? Or how was the test? Did I, but this is, I love it. This is a beautiful thing because they do want to quantify it. Yeah. But the, the idea is cuz they haven't nine times outta 10. They haven't been married before.

And they're, they're, you know, between, uh, 20 and 30, more or less. Uh, and um, so they're entering into this relationship even though they're um, maybe living with this person mm-hmm um, they're. don't have the, they don't have the knowledge to ask those questions. Mm-hmm or even, you know, the focus again, speaks about pets and, um, how we, how we deal with those and, um, welcome them into a, the family.

So the main thing I wanna try and do is walk with them. Uh, and I want to hear their story as well. Like that the, the, the, the gene, the genealogy in the family, uh, that's encouraging. Why are they here right now? What, what brought them here? What's their story to hear? And it's not where they first met or things like that.

It said, I want a bit larger. What, like, where, what is your story? Mm. Cause that's the story you're bringing into to make your story as a couple. Right. And so we, yeah, we go through and, um, and it is such a joy to share, uh, what the church actually teaches mm-hmm because, you know, I often remind couples, you know, the church has been doing this for almost 2000 years.

Right. So she's kind of worked out a bit of stuff. Yeah. And I always speak that, you know, as we speak, as the church is feminine, it's she, as a mother, she loves us. So she's trying to work out all these kind of things to help us grow. And, um, and even sharing this idea of the church was very prudish before.

And didn't really speak about sex. I have this beautiful document from 1951 where it pop, uh, pop the 12th, I think is saying six is joyful and pleasurable and, and couples should be encouraged to engage in that. Nice boom. Yeah,

really? Yeah. And if you read anything that jump on the second road, you realize

that for sure.

And then, you know, he wrote that beautiful book, love and responsibility, and he, he actually goes into more detail into that hundred percent. And I don't know what the rating is over this podcast, but I won't go into it, but it's very explicit. But how, but also how beautiful it can be. Especially if, if a man is there to seek the good of his spouse, right.

And, and, and to seek her good and all of that. And it's beautiful that father was saying about NFP. Uh, I know even with him and I bring, I bring a lot of my own personal story into it as well. Sure. Cause I'm, I'm a convert to the faith and, um, and in my marriage as a deacon, I'm a permanent deacon. I'm married with.

Um, we, we welcome children into our family. It's been a beautiful thing, but I know, uh, when we were first engaged, my wife had to was finishing college and we didn't, we didn't wanna start a family. And so I said, when are you, when are you going on a pill? And she, and I can't do that. It's, you know, it wasn't good for us.

And so we, uh, and it was so I thought, well, we already decided we weren't gonna have children for two years. What am I gonna do? And I was a bit worried, cause I didn't even have a membership to a gym or anything like that. What am I gonna do with all this energy ? And so here it was this idea of through periodic abstinence, cuz also in a natural family planning teaches.

The actual biology of, of male and female. And it shows women often who don't even know that their fertility is a cycle. And, um, they're only actually fertile for a short period of time during that cycle. And so if they engage in sexual activity during that time, it is not an accident it's actually doing what your bodies are supposed to be doing.

Sure. Uh, if a baby comes. And so here, that idea of abstaining during, during that short period of time, like, and again, it literally changes the brain chemistry. Mm-hmm of a man to, to abstain and, and desire intimacy of often through nonsexual touch it. It enables a man and a to phrase it in the way of it actually changes his gaze towards his wife.

Mm. He sees her. as her, as she's supposed to be seeing mm-hmm, not as, uh, uh, an object of his last, an object of his arousal. And so these beautiful things, we try and, um, speak to them, but often that's a new language. Yeah. As well. I was actually just finishing a class last night and a guy, uh, put up his hand.

He said, everyone keeps talking about sacraments. What are they? So for a Catholic it's like, yeah, we know what sacraments is. I know there's more than three, but, you know, um, um, and so we had to, so I actually had to once again, realize some of the language that we're even using. And so it's walking with them, enables them and hearing their story.

It's um, I'm able to, you know, um, hear what their Lang, what language they're actually speaking. So we can bring, um, this idea of marriage prep into it. Mm-hmm . Um, but it's also speaking the truth as well. I, um, it, hopefully they've walking with them. They've realized that I'm kind of a logical and normal person.

Even though my therapist says otherwise, you, weren't supposed to say that loud. Yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry. But I also, you know, if I, I, I often use the phrase, I say, if you are getting married and the church says that marriage is this, then it can't be something else. And so what you are doing is in itself very, very sacred mm-hmm

And so this is why we are encouraging to work very hard at it, but it's must and people say marriage is hard work. Yeah. It's good work. I mean, it's, it's good work. Yeah. If we are willing to be that gift to the other person. Yeah. So it's really just encouraging 'em to get into that mindset as they move along.

So that, and I also, and so my goal is I, yeah, I'll, I'll get you ready for the day mm-hmm right. We'll do all the stuff that we need to do for the day for the ceremony. That's no problem, but that is not my goal. And I say to them, my goal is old and wrinkly. because that's where it is. Um, and so, and I say, you know, yes, you, you wanna stay married until death, but if you have that goal, at least you'll be close.

Beautiful. Thank you both. And so basically what I'm hearing is marriage prep is in a way training, let's say at least the last part of training to prepare people, to hopefully have a beautiful, loving, successful marriage. And you're going through all the different things that the church teaches, which through its 2000 years around, um, in existence, it's learned that these are the things that help people have like really beautiful marriages that stay true to the nature of the human person.

Any final thoughts on that before we

move on? Well, I think that, um, like you were talking about screens in our culture more and more today is marriage is under threat or marriage is, uh, is at risk. Um, because there are so many distractions and even if a simple thing of having screen free evenings can really bring greater intimacy to a couple.

And so that idea of recognizing that we are entering into a, a relationship that is not actually supported by our culture. And so therefore we have to be more attentive to each other.

And I think the, the beauty of marriage prep is even just on a natural level. So apart from the fact that we're preparing the couple to receive the grace of God, we're inviting them to begin to pray with each other.

If, if they've never done it before, or I love marriage prep with, uh, a Protestant and a Catholic, cause then you say, all right, why don't we close in prayer? And the Protestant can just say, all right, father, God, we just come before you right now. And we, they, they can just dive right in. Yeah. And the Catholic's like,

um, father, son

hail Mary full of grace.

The Lord is with me. Right. And because again, expressive prayer is vulner. it, it puts myself out there and it, and it, but it invites we're. What we're trying to do is invite their, their relationship, uh, with God and with each other to both grow closer, which, you know, that's an image of a triangle as the two points grow up the line to reach the top point.

They also grow closer to one another God being the top, God being the top being the two ends. Yep. Yep. And so, uh, so you have that by way of grace, but even for those who are not religious or those who have left the church, I just, I always say, find a therapist or find someone who's willing to fight for the good of your, of your relationship, because you both are flawed and that's indisputable.

Oh yeah. Right. And so ha to have. We, you know, we call it a transcendent third God, uh, and then mediated by the church and mediated by, you know, priest, deacons, uh, lay faithful. But even if someone doesn't feel that they have access to the church in that regard to find just another person, again, a therapist or someone else who can just poke to find the tender spots of the relationship and mediate, good, helpful, fruitful communication between the two of those.

That's a great step forward. And then later, if they seek the grace of the, that the church desires to offer again in freedom, not because grandmother, you know, will pay for the photographer or because of a Catholic guilt trip that they just need to get it done in the church, but the free choice to say yeah.

So to have to have another walk with the couple, no matter their circumstance, mm-hmm is just gonna be powerful and that's open to everybody.

Yeah, no, beautiful. It, it makes so much sense. And you two have obviously worked with a lot of different couples. I'm curious. I, I kind of asked this question before, but I wanna hear if you have anything to add to it, what do you see as the main cause of dysfunction and divorce?

Uh, so the couples, hopefully listening right now, whether they're married, engaged, dating can work against those things. Those factors. Again, you touched on this before. I'm just curious, like, what are those main causes of dysfunction divorce that we can fight?

Dicken. Yeah. That idea of, you know, if we go back to that piece of description naked, without shame is, is, am, cuz my emotions are gonna come and I'm gonna be angry, frustrated, joyful, happy, sad.

Um, and, but how do I, um, come before the other person, um, still, you know, we use the language still seeking their beauty and their dignity. Right. But, but I'm but being, allowing myself to have those emotions mm-hmm and so that idea of, I, I, I like to use the analogy of having two, two, um, French doors, I suppose, on your, on your, on your heart.

Is that how you said this? um, and just having those open. Right. And so somebody can just look in and, uh, so the, and, and often we don't have the skills for that. I, I say to couple straight away, communication is a skill, um, entering into these kind of moments of reflection is a skill and being used to that.

And so, um, yeah, and, and walking with the church, there are, there are a deacons priest there's lay faithful, but if they're not, there is walking with a counselor, uh, to, to have those moments of vulnerability and growing in that it's not because that their marriage is struggling, that they need a counselor as they need a counselor to keep their marriage strong.

Right. And these ideas of growing in that skill. And I, uh, also that muscle memory of being able to share who I am, or having, even having, even having moments. It comes back that whole functionality of a, of a, um, of a couple, you know, I'm, I'm tired. So I'm gonna sit in front of, um, I don't know, what is it now?

Instagram? What's the latest one. Yeah. Tick TOK, tick TOK, right? Tick. Oh my goodness. Gracious. but sit in front of there for three hours cuz I deserve it. I've had a hard day. Yeah, right. Rather than being intentional than in, um, seeking a relationship with, with my spouse. Um, and so cause when we talk about priorities, um, for a Christian marriage's God, so you can, you know, you can say lovingly to your wife, you're number two and my life' sweetheart.

Right. Um, but this idea of is my spouse, the top priority mm-hmm in, in, in my. in my life. Yeah. Right. And it's, it's that idea of being able to work intentionally and it's not something we can get lazy at as well. Yeah. And I think that's where easy to do it is easy to do cuz it's, it's tough work and um, but it's, I keep reminding if it's a good work, it's worth it, right?

Yeah. If we were, if we had to get up every day and um, I don't know, press a button or do a certain exercise to maintain world peace, we would do it. Right. Mm-hmm sure. Even though it was tough sometimes, and it's the same thing with the relationship and I, and, and once again, going back to the idea of having divorces an option as well right now, I'm not, of course we can immediately go to those extreme examples where you church is never saying, you know, tough it out or learn to, you know, keep your, keep your, keep your hands up.

Yeah. Don't

don't like continue to be abused, like get to safety. That's

of course. should, but it's these, like when we're talking about, uh, people who are reasonable and, and still discovering what love is, it's, it's actually taking the time that maybe, I don't know, and I still wanna discover it, but with you,

yeah, in that sense, one, uh, one myth, I think that's out there to, you touched on it already is this idea that if we really love each other, if we're really good for each other, then marriage should be easy.

Like it's almost as if things should just fall into place. Cuz we love each other. And I think the experience of falling in love can give that illusion, especially cuz it's really easy in the beginning of your relationship. Everything's great. and then, you know, you realize that you're both human, you're broken, you have flaws, you get annoyed, you know, you get angry, you get whatever.

Um, but we even see that with, you know, psychologists and the data that's showing there is a, there's a couple goes through a cycle. Any long term committed relationship. Mm-hmm they say we call it marriage. Right? We'll go through it. Uh, uh, a time where they're just. Don't like the other person. Yeah. Right.

I, I have no feelings of love towards you. And, but that is a natural and healthy thing in, in, in a couple relationship and recognizing that is being able to, okay. We freely go, um, um, desire to enter into this relationship. We, we, um, we know that love is not a feeling, it's a choice. So today I'm gonna choose to love you.

And I'm gonna manifest that through my actions. Yeah. And so this idea is, and, and that the data seems to show once again, the, the data is the data that normally happens about three to five years into a marriage. Mm wow. And if you look at the divorce statistics, it's extremely similar. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes so much sense.

So, so it is, we need to learn these skills. It's not just a matter of like, oh, we feel really good about each other. We love each other. And. The emotional sense, not the action sense of the word. So father, I'm just curious from your point of view, anything to add to that, and what do you see as like at the root of a lot of dysfunction divorce?

Yeah.

In additional, uh, similar, similar to what deacon said. I think it's, um, an unwillingness to ask for help. Mm-hmm right. How many, how many people do their own taxes anymore? Very few. They ask for help from, you know, software companies to people, right? Yeah. Who gives we, we also live in a culture where you can't prescribe yourself medical stuff, even if you are a doctor, right?

Yeah. So we live in a society where you're interdependent on pretty much everything that you have to go to an expert for someone, something else. Right. Mm-hmm go to lawyers, but in order for 'em to be lawyers, they have to pass the bar. There's a certain kind of preparation, right? Why do we not do this with marriage?

Why do we not bring our marriage up for a certain kind of maintenance? Right. Why do couples not take the day off of work for their anniversary? And say, let's spend the day together. Wow. Intimately or hash it out or whatever it is. And it's, you know, we will say busy, busy, busy mm-hmm . I once gave a, a, a marriage homely series up at my former parish.

And I started out with, we live in a culture that does not tolerate broken cars. We live in a culture where you're pretty much guaranteed to have a car mm-hmm right. There are gas stations everywhere. There are, uh, mechanics everywhere. And the way that this country is set up so far apart, and we're not a very ambulatory culture, we pretty much guarantee that you can get access to a car.

Why not? But again, the maintenance, the fueling, why do we not do that with marriage? What's the kind of maintenance required for holy Mamo. If we change the oil every three to six months, what's the equivalent of that in holy Mamo. If we fuel up once or twice a week, what's the equivalent of that in holy matrimony, mm-hmm would that we were a culture that didn't tolerate the failure of marriages.

Amen. Cause we don't tolerate the failure of cars, but cars require upkeep. So to, uh, marriages. And so I think it's the, it's the question of the question on people's mind. And this is the goal of marriage. Prep is to move the, if we'll stay together to how will will we stay together? Mm-hmm because when people, you don't need to actually know how you'll stay together, you don't know what the economy's gonna do 10 years from now.

You don't know what jobs are gonna be like, you don't know what, you know, kid number two is gonna be in relation to kid. Number one, mm-hmm you, but all you need is moral certitude to say, I believe that God is faithful. I believe that I have the will. Uh, there was a point at which we were totally in love with each other.

Mm. feeling is not everything. And so it's not the question of, if we'll stay together, that's gotta be off the table. Mm it's. How will we stay together? And then that how begs a willingness to seek help. Wow. Therapists, family, community. And I think we have to destigmatize just like we've unfortunately destigmatized, uh, well, we don't love stigmas, so, um, but we've, destigmatized, uh, divorce, but we need to destigmatize marital issues, marital problems.

Right. Would that a couple could just go to another couple in church and say, can we come over tonight? Like we're having a really tough time that, and just vulnerably say, you know, I'm, we're hurting. Not just I'm hurting mm-hmm right. Wow. And we don't need to shovel out blame on anyone again, everyone's got a bro.

A weekend will darkened intellect. Mm-hmm uh, everyone's got their own sin. So of course this is gonna come up. So let's create a culture where we don't tolerate the failure of marriages. So good. If

people wanna listen to those homilies, how do they do

that? I can send you the audio recordings. Okay. We'll put it in the show.

Now. There

you go. Sounds good. Is it it's on YouTube or

no? Uh, not from my former parish. That was okay. The pre pandemic reality of the church, the post pandemic reality with the church. What is live streaming? Yes, exactly.

we, we upgraded the tech of the church. Yeah. I wanna shift gears a little bit. There's so much we could talk about that forever, but I'm curious when it comes to

so

pretty.

I just want to just segue back to that go. Yeah. The other thing I think when we talk about pressure on marriage is, um, and I'm gonna talk about Hollywood as a general thing, but the idea of, um, marriage does the dissolution of marriage or divorce has become something more of a. A thing to aspire to almost, or even promote it, like, yeah.

So, you know, of course we'll get back together, but it's, it's some kind of a drama. And I think the, um, as society we've adhered too much to that to think of as, as truth. Hmm. Rather than just entertainment. Um, but even then entertainment, you know, going back to what father was saying to even not tolerate, um, divorce.

Yeah. Um, this idea where Hollywood has really permeated our culture and the more and more we have screens, the more and more it is gonna be harder to challenge that.

No. And when we say not tolerate, I don't wanna set up this, like yeah. Grin and bear it, you must suffer and you have to stay. Right. Yeah. But again, so the support systems, what I'm advocating for is the support systems, right.

There are, the church does have an annulment process because she does envision humanity will contract invalid marriages. Sure. Which will. More than like more than like more likely than not result in divorce result in dysfunction. Sure. And actually the annulment process, although this is a different podcast, is its own salutary healing.

Mm-hmm , uh, process as well in view of if one or both parties wants to get married again for the second time, naturally speaking, but married for the first time. Sacramentally speaking. Sure. Because again, declaration that the marriage never rose to the level of the sacrament, the natural marriage never rose to the level of a sacrament mm-hmm

But when I say we don't want to tolerate divorce, I just wanna make sure people don't hear we're Catholic. You have to be stuck in the relationship. You have to stick it out. God wills, your unhappiness. God wants your misery. Uh, because, because people who are hurting can hear certain things. Yeah. And just, and, and it hits them in a certain way.

And that's not God desires our happiness, the church desires our happiness. Yeah. We pursue that through the pursuit of holiness and the life in Jesus Christ mean, thanks for clarifying

that. And yeah. So anyone listening right now, and maybe you're in an abusive marriage, maybe it's not safe. What we always say in this show and what the church says is get to safety.

And as father was saying, there's a reason, reason for the annulment process, perhaps your marriage ISN invalid. But I think that the default really needs to be, it's like, even if civilly, we need to put up barriers between one spouse and another, because not safe for that spouse and the children. Yep.

There's a difference between the civil marriage and the Sacramento or the natural marriage bond, which is a deeper reality. And so I think it's some of the most heroic people I know are the ones who maybe perhaps do have a valid marriage. One of the spouses just went off the deep. and the other one, they obviously can't be together because it's not safe or some extreme dysfunction.

Maybe one of them is being unfaithful. And just continuing that lifestyle, you obviously should not live together in that case. But the most rogue people, I think I've seen are the ones who are, have been deserted have been abandoned. And even in the case of a valid marriage, they say true to their wedding vows, even though their spouse isn't yeah.

I have so much admiration for those people. I don't know. That's such suffering and that's a really difficult thing, but I think that gets to the core of like, this is how serious we take these wedding vows.

Amen. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I have many examples of that and it's, I'm sure I agree. I agree with the word heroic.

Absolutely. Yeah,

absolutely. Lots to say on that one. I hope we covered it. Okay. Um, when it comes to, uh, leading people through marriage prep, um, leading, you know, marriages overall guiding them, where do you think we're failing young couples in particular when it comes to marriage overall and especially marriage

prep.

Where are we failing the couples in their marriage? Prep?

Yeah. Marriage prep. And then marriage overall, like you guys have already touched on a lot of this, I think, but it's like, what can we be doing better? Where are we failing them? The second question is like, what can we be doing better? But the first one is like, where are we?

Especially as a Catholic church, like not doing our part to build up these marriages and even prepare people for marriages. Cuz one, one of the problems that I see is like, you know, we go through marriage prep and then it's kind of like, see you guys like good luck, you know, hopefully you make it. And that's honestly just somewhat of a practical thing.

I think where you guys like there's so few resources and there's so few priests. And so I think that's a practical issue, but, um, but I think that's like one area where it's like, okay, we can have lay people step up. Mm-hmm to, you know, and there's some good initiative going on. I don't wanna say that it's dark everywhere, but um, yeah, I'm just curious, like what, what do you see as like, we really are failing

here and here.

Hmm. Yeah. I would say, um, let me answer it obliquely. I think there's a narrative. I think there's an unhelpful narrative that priests are busy. We have a lot to do, but by the way, a priest chooses to pray and to live his life that determines whether he has a spirit of frantic busyness or not. Hmm. Having an occupied schedule is different than busy.

And so many people come up to the priest father. I know you're so busy, but, or, and, or, or they don't come up to the priest because they fear that he's busy. Mm-hmm, uh, many things priests can't always control what comes their way, but we can almost always control when it comes our way minus the prescheduled things.

Right? Sure. We can, you know, reschedule this funeral or this meeting or this whatever. And so I think one way in which the church sometimes does fail people is the inaccessibility of priests. Interesting. Um, one of the, the things that I've chosen to do in my priesthood is to meet with my couples five times each.

And if, you know, if I've got a couple, if I'm marrying a, a decent amount of couples in a year, that's a, a number of, of meetings. Mm. But at the same time, how often do I, I eat dinner every night. Sure. Right. Why not combine that? And so, so for me, it's to have couples feel like they have access to a priest in their preparatory time, and then they can come back and say, father, we need help.

Mm. Or father, whatever it is. I did marriage prep, um, for a couple who their first child, uh, has, was born with down syndrome. Mm. It was a very kind of difficult time for them in terms of reg gaging their expectations. Yeah. But it was a really beautiful thing to be able to try to reach out to them and to make sure they know the church is there for them.

But only that, that only happens when we're historically walking with people. Mm-hmm, when we're setting it up. And so I, I think one of the things I'd point to is to just make sure that priests. And deacons the, the, the hierarchy, the, the clergy of the church that, that were with the people mm-hmm, , uh, that were with the couples of marriage pet.

Because unfortunately, a lot of times you have, you know, go see this NFP person, go see this couple, and then you go meet with father once before the wedding mm-hmm and then father's like, okay, where did you meet? What's your love song? I'm just trying to craft the homily fear wedding. Yeah. But we have so much, and maybe that's, that's what I'm pointing to.

We have so much riding on the wedding day and the wedding day is like a fairly darn easy day of your marriage, right? Oh yeah. Everything's prescheduled some people have coordinators, right. If something goes wrong, someone else is gonna take care of it. Everyone's there for you, right. Yeah. Two weeks later.

Not everyone's necessarily there for you, right? Yeah. In the same way. Sure. And so, um, I, I want married couples to know that the church is there for them in the brokenness of their marriage. um, because I have, I have other priests, brother priests that are there for the brokenness in my priesthood. Yeah.

Right. And I need that support because we all have our own brokenness. And so for the, I think for people to hear it from the church more it's okay to be hurting. It's okay. To be broken mm-hmm and it's okay to reach out for help. It's okay. To ask a priest, to ask a deacon, to ask a counselor, a Catholic counselor, whatever it is.

Mm-hmm because otherwise, if we just, you know, PR around that, everything's fine. Well, I don't know, pick up a newspaper. And do you tell me? Yeah, no. So true.

DEA Dicken, you know, I agree. And that I think, um, the idea of when we talk about marriage, prayer, but it, it obviously there's a process that you have to follow cause you are working towards a date.

And, um, and often a couple comes to us. They've they're nine times out to him. They they've pretty much got a date booked already. Mm-hmm right. Um, and so they're trying to work in with that. And I think where the church is probably failing, is that, is that process approach or convey? I, I call it a conveyor belt.

We don't want to drop the couple on the beginning of the conveyor belt. And then when they drop off the end it's we are done with them. Yeah. And we try and because, you know, we, when we talk about this term remote preparation, there's often, there's not that. preparation for their life together. That's been really engaged in by their own family that encouraging them to live this life.

Um, and it's beautiful when that it does happen, but not, not very, not very often. So the church often wants to really shove it a whole lot of information into the couples. Yeah. Where did you? Can't it's a very intense year for them anyway, or sure. Or, or, or eight, eight to nine months or whatever it is of preparation and it's, it's too much.

And so this idea of, um, not really journeying with them, but throwing them on a conveyor belt or putting 'em into a process and then out there go. Yeah. And so

at my previous parish, I had a, a couple from another parish approach. Me and their marriage prep was comprised of read COSTI canoe, be this document from 1931 read, uh, familiars consortium.

Beautiful. But, but essentially read, read these three people documents, uh, and if you print them all out there, it's, you know, like hundreds, a hundred and something pages. um, which that's thick and you gotta be a little trained to read, uh, documents. You can't just pick one up. Um, cuz they all connect to each other in, in a web and no one had been talking with them about their communication.

It was, do you go to Sunday mass mm-hmm it was, do you do, do you, you know, it was kind of checkbox Catholicism mm-hmm on the spiritual

end of things primarily, right? Uh, yeah, yeah, no human level, which is uh, where I see marriages falling apart. It's like the human

level stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I, they, you know, they had heard that I meet with couples and they're like, father, would you meet with us?

And again, you know, busy, but. , that's not the narrative I wanna live out of. And so, um, it's not just kind of reading theology. It's not just, yeah, there is a process. Uh, we do want them to be informed of their consent and things like that. Sure. Uh, but also to walk, to walk alongside them. Okay.

Yeah. And so that's, that's where it is.

And, um, and failing to have that relationship. Right. Because if, you know, we, the next question is what can we do better? Is that idea of community mm-hmm and generally Catholics. We're not that great at it. Yeah. Our idea of community on Sunday, Mar

unless there's coffee

and donuts, coffee, donuts . But, but even, you know, during the actual, our time of celebration, maybe we'll give a, a slight smile to someone.

Yeah. And it was great drink COVID right. Cuz we didn't even have to do that cuz we had masks on and so the idea of community, right. Um, is, is how can we, uh, I think we're failing on that as well. Generally I know this, some parishes always and a lot of church communities are very intentional about it, but I think overall it's.

Catholic

thing. Yeah, no, I would agree with that. It is sad along those lines. I'm curious. I wanna hone in on people who come from broken families in particular. So you have people in your marriage prep, or maybe one or both of the, uh, fiances that come from a broken family. I'm curious, like what, what can we do to better help them, um, in their marriage prep so that they have these successful marriages?

Cuz one of the things that we see so often is that they end up repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in their own lives and so sad. So obviously we wanna help them, uh, prevent them from going down that path. But we also want them to thrive and have really beautiful marriages. So what can we do for, what do you think we can do for those people in particular, who come from broken families when they're going through marriage?

I'd say, um, one of the processes by which I was formed in, in seminary. Um, we have a great seminary here St. John Biani. Yeah. In my seven years throughout it, uh, we start with a spirituality year and it's a year of no classes. Uh, sorry. We take classes. There's no grades. So the type a, you know, go-geters, they're foiled cuz now they have to learn for the sake of learning.

Yeah. As opposed to kind of performing right. Huh? Uh there's no, um, we don't have phones, radio, anything. Right. So no technology and it, and it, it, it takes us out of our element and then this threefold process that they, that they gave us, which is both for the year and for the duration of our time in seminaries, self-knowledge, self-acceptance self gift in light of the Lord.

Well, right. So it's not just making myself better so that I can do better so that I can be better so that, you know, as if I can get kingdom of heaven points that way. But instead. do I understand, uh, where I came from, the factors in my life, the Ignatian way is be aware, understand, take action. Mm-hmm so they're very similar.

And so just having an awareness of what's my relationship with my dad mm-hmm and then bringing my, my spouse, my future spouse into that. Mm. Um, cuz they're gonna be together in the same room for Thanksgiving at some point. Right. So, so be aware or, or self knowledge, right. That's why we have in the life of the church, the exam in prayer, which is not just for, you know, listing your sins.

So you can go to confession and, uh, and do that. But understanding who I am in light of the Lord, my weaknesses, my difficulties. so that I can invite my fiance in further, uh, into my life. Mm-hmm , uh, and to be a part, a mechanism of my own healing, not just behavior management, but so that I have an interior freedom when I'm around someone who reminds me of my mom or dad when at a very broken time in our family life.

Right. Mm-hmm that, that, uh, the freedom of, um, of just being me with, uh, with deficiencies mm-hmm yeah, that that'd be one thing I would pause it. Okay.

yeah. And that's I, even the language that we use when we speak about love a lot in the church mm-hmm and when we come from broken families, that idea of what love actually is.

Um, and so trying to go even deeper into that and to, and so love is, um, being able to seek the good of the other as the church would say, but how do I do it in my brokenness? How do I, uh, as a fallen person and, and moving away from. the idea of what I think perfection and his love, but, um, working towards that, um, I'm gonna make these steps today.

Mm-hmm , but I know I, I I'm far from it, but, um, and the more, and I think the other thing father was touching on, um, is the more that I'm able to be vulnerable. Um, the more the other person can love me. Mm-hmm right. The more the other person knows about me and my brokenness, the more than they can actually love me.

And often we operate out of fear. Sure. Because we've come from broken families and we've whatever, you know, um, we try to manage our parents and that didn't work out and those kind of things. And, and so I need to try and manage what I'm doing here, but rather than just being vulnerable towards the other person, which does require a lot of human.

skill building in a way. Yeah. So that I can have that muscle memory to say, look, I'm really frustrated today, you know? Yeah. And, um, and in this situation and, um, and not, and, and, and not expect a backlash, but, uh, for the other person to receive what you are saying as well, you know, um, yeah, cuz that's where, you know, the term escalation or arguments is where somebody said, oh, I'm just feeling really annoyed when you, when you win, when you said that and that immediately straightaway gets the heckles up and yeah.

Rather than saying, oh, okay. So what, instead of the skill of maybe paraphrasing what I hear or something like that. And uh, so it, and, but it's actually learning what love is for us as a couple mm-hmm because it coming from a broken culture, a broken family it's is very confusing. And you know, I remember hearing a story and, um, you know, somebody came from extremely abusive, uh, family and, and talking about love was the opposite of what.

You know, even the remote thought, you know, uh, what love was. And so being able to think, well, this is actually how you're called to live in and it's okay. It's okay for you. Uh, and you are worth it. Mm-hmm right. And all this stuff. And just to say, you know, that I can be this with this other person mm-hmm and it, it takes, it's a skill.

Like we grow in that idea of communication. It's not, you know, as a, as a deacon or a priest, it's not the idea of spirit, you know? Um, it's just not a SP spirit thing, but it's a, it's a training ground where we can become more spiritual, so to speak. Mm-hmm sure. Yeah. so to speak. Sure. Yeah. So it's that idea of about knowing who I am growing and who I am so that I can be who I am for, for someone

else.

So good. Thank you. It's funny when you were mentioning, um, you know, you said the word frustrated, that's one of two words that I ban in my office. uh, frustrated and interesting. Cause those are two words that we as Americans tend to hide behind. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and you know, so a couple will come in and be like, well, I went to his home, uh, met his parents and it was really interesting.

and then they'll move on and almost always that's, there's something negative going on. Yeah. It's like, great. Do you have the vulnerability to voice your frictional points of contact with your future mother or father-in-law mm-hmm with the one whom you love, who is supposed to be one of the safest places for your heart to reside that relationship hundred percent.

And so we jump, I jump on those two words, interesting or, or frustrated and say, awesome. Beautiful. I think I know what you're saying. And then I reach into the drawer and I pull out an emotion chart. Nice. So if you're at home listening, you can just Google emotion chart, PDF, and there'll be a number of good ones that come up and then you.

pick two or three other words that point to cuz again, entering into the vulnerability of this is the reality of your family. And this is how I feel mm-hmm and there's no truth that could come up in a relationship. That's going to just like break it off just because I feel a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. It's an unwillingness for you to receive my feelings or what comes up in me or the reactions or it's an unwillingness for me to share them and then, you know, 20 years of bottling and at some point that thing's gonna explode.

Yeah. Right. So that's the other kind of, that's the, the part of marriage prep where it's, doesn't matter if you're from a broken family or a great family, there's going to be pinch points. There's gonna be pain points. Do you have in confidence and trust the ability to vocalize that, uh, to share that in intimacy because there's a verbal intimacy, which isn't always just poetry and flowers.

Interesting. .

Yeah, no, that's so good. I, yeah, those human skills are so big. That's definitely where I think a lot of people from broken families are lacking and you're right too, that even if you come from an intact family, you can be lacking in a lot of these skills. But I know, um, for me, learning to navigate conflict was just so difficult.

Cause I saw it handled so poorly in my family mm-hmm so I had no idea how to go about it. I maybe picked up some things along the way that I should be doing, but it's so different when you're in the amids of a maybe heated argument. And how do you still be respectful and get your point across, but you know, still love the person that you're engaging with.

So th there's a lot there, but those human skills I think are so needed. And one of the most helpful things, um, for me, was just seeing, spending time with like really beautiful marriages, like really healthy marriages. And that's something that I talk about a lot, something that I'm a huge proponent of is like, if you know a marriage couple that.

Has a really beautiful marriage, like go have dinner with them, like help 'em around, help 'em out around the house. Like just kind of soak in the beauty of their family. And, uh, that's been beyond healing for me. So in the last few minutes that we have together, just wanna get your advice. So what, what advice, what encouragement would you give to, uh, leaders of marriage prep who are listening right now, uh, who want to improve their marriage prep programs?

Deacon, we'll start with

you.

So I, I think the biggest thing at the moment we are living in a world that is very, very different from maybe where the leaders have come from. And I think this idea of relationship is, is really needs to be fostered. Now, if you are gonna engage with a couple, um, who are wanting to be married, is do I have the, um, the team or, or the availability to, to journey and walk with this couple mm-hmm, not to the date of their marriage, but in the, into their marriage as well.

And so this idea of am I gonna journey with them so that we can share, you know, all the things that we need to share with them, whatever protocol there is, um, that is established, but this idea of I can be with you, right. That idea of relationship. And then the other thing of course is, as I mentioned before, was how can we really encourage community mm-hmm right.

This idea of, um, as a young married couple or a newly weird couple regard, regardless of their age, am I able to be in a, um, Context or a supportive community where I can be vulnerable as well, to a certain extent, you know, and, and share the hardships that I'm dealing with and, and also understand that people are, uh, experience probably experiencing them as well.

So that idea of relationship and journey I think is really important rather than the convey about, of, um, analogy of popping them on and seeing them later.

Yeah, no. So good father and say it's over theologizing and over psychologizing amen. um, it's not all God, and it's not all, I don't know. Sigmund Freud, right?

Yeah. Anyone on the Myers Briggs can marry anyone else on the Myers Briggs. There is no test, right? That's why the focus inventory is an inventory. There is no test that can guarantee anything. Mm-hmm . And so I think some marriage prep. Uh, retreats or people involved with marriage prep can say, gosh, well, I, I, they get uncomfortable with the Jesus part.

And so they go all communication or they go all self-help relational, self-help whatever. And they become experts in this isn't and that isn't and codependency and whatever else as if there is a book or a psychological framework or structured, that's just gonna solve humanity or brokenness an algorithm.

An exa. Yeah. Thank you. That'd be nice. And so we don't need to be solved. We need to be saved by Jesus, but at the same time, it's not all, God, God respects our free will. God respects our very poor decisions, but he'll always rush to our aid. And so I think for those involved in marriage prep, Not just making it all about prayer.

Although I don't, I haven't seen it to be too much all about prayer. Mm-hmm um, maybe sometimes all about just theology, theology, you know, here's, I've seen that. Yeah, really intense, um, you know, theological terms and, and, you know, get that memorized it in your head mm-hmm but for what right. What we want is the couple, to be able to say, Jesus, we need you spouse.

I need you, others. I need you mm-hmm . And to ha to just sit there in that, in that vulnerability. And so that may have been to the thing that we started about the, the Steubenville divorce rate. It, there could be a supposition that, that God's just gonna save my marriage as opposed to no, God may work through mediaries that he's put in place to draw me into greater vulnerability.

Right. Mm-hmm why, why does God just not zap sins away on the spot? Right. I, I go confess my sins straight to God. He mediates through a priest. He mediates through the life of the church because priests can draw somebody's will more efficaciously within the sacrament of confession. It's the difference between saying, well, I know I lie.

And so I'm just gonna tell God and whatever, and then vulnerably saying it to a priest and saying, I lie. And then, and then you run the risk of the priest, maybe asking you about it. Right. And then the vulnerable intimacy of that. Right. So, okay. Where am I going with this? Not over psychologizing or theologizing that, that it's, um, we're trying to draw couples to be able to seek God, to seek each other, to seek others mm-hmm and then trust that God will be involved in it.

Mm-hmm but it's not all him. That's a heresy called occasional where God we're, you know, we're all just kind of puppets in his thing and he's just making everything happen. Mm-hmm right. Uh, God allows things to play out, uh, in his Providence, he guides its course, but he allows us to. mess up at least his plan A's mm-hmm and, uh, but then he always comes to the rescue as well, if we, but seek him.

Hmm,

beautiful. I've heard it said that God feeds the birds, but he doesn't, uh, put the worms in the nest. nice. Like we need to go out and put the work in before I ask you as the final question. Uh, if people wanna reach out to you, maybe they do work in an archdiocese or at a parish, and they're doing marriage prep and they'd love to kind of learn from each of you.

How can they contact you?

So I'm actually on the archdiocese website. Uh, you can contact me at, um, deacon.Coleman@archedin.org G or my no, actually my office number as well. Cuz we wanna have a relationship 3 0 3 7 1 5 3 2 5 9.

We'll put those in the show notes as well. Great. And then my email is father Daniel MPV, denver.org.

That's for most precious blood that's I'm the parish of which I'm pastor father Daniel, M P B denver.org. Thank you

both. And it's just been such a pleasure sitting with you. The final question, you guys get the final word on this, uh, father, we'll start with you. What advice would you give to that couple listening right now?

Cause there's a lot of couples listening to this, um, who maybe sees marriage prep as kind of this like necessary thing, this checklist, like how can, what would you encourage them to do in order to like really invest in it?

Mm yeah. Yeah. So just like I talked about, we can have a narrative of priests are busy.

We can also have a narrative that paperwork is inherently bad or checklists are inherently bad. Mm. They can be misunderstood or misused. But behind every paper, uh, within most paperwork is actually a, a really important reality. And the reason it's been turned into a form, or the reason it's been turned into something is there's some important conversation that ought to happen within that.

Right? And so you have this, the MB form for us that, that parents have to testify that their, their kids are marrying freely and that they haven't been married before. And it can be a little bit of a hassle, right? You, especially non-Catholic parents are supposed to go and, um, get this for, bring it to a priest.

And so, you know, I just had this the other day, a non-practicing unbaptized brother of a guy who's gonna marry a Catholic, you know, came to my church and said, Hey, I need this form signed. And it was just a really good five minute conversation to say, okay, is your brother marrying freely? What's the relationship like.

Has, you know, has he been married before? Good. He hasn't. Okay. He's free to marry, but is he doing so freely? Right? Mm-hmm and then I can kind of insert truths into this guy's life that he can be there for his brother, not just looking good and wedding photos, but actually being present to his brother's marriage.

And so there's, there's a couple ways of going about forms. You can just sign it and say, this is a hassle, or you can say, why does the church ask me to do this? Why does the church ask me to take this inventory? Why does the church ask me to, to do NFP? Why does the church, why does the church wanna know all these details for the sake of love?

because love is the reason for which we do anything. And sometimes we forget that. And so there, marriage prep process is not a bunch of hoops to jump through behind every form behind every piece of paper is an important conversation. And just because that important conversation doesn't get tactfully had doesn't mean the church is just like feeding off of paper and trying to force people to do stuff.

Yeah. And, uh, even segueing off that, um, first to leaders, right. Um, who are gonna be welcoming, this is to welcome the couples, right? Cause often when we talk about forms and all this, ah, so to actually welcome and take time to welcome them and then receive them and, and often couples are put off by that by, by, you know, by.

Picking up the phone and they get someone who is okay, what, what do you want? Um, and so for couples, I, I see this as a time, if you are, I don't think anybody has, uh, a plan in themselves today, you know, in three to five years, we're, we'll, we're gonna, re-look at this we'll reassess, you know, do the pros and cons.

And typically when a couple is wanting to get married, they're in it for life. Right. Um, even though all the, all of the stuff that we've talked about, so what I encourage couples to do, and especially if you are a couple of faith is to pray together, but I dunno how to figure it out or Google it. How can I pray with my spouse?

I'm pretty sure there's something on there. Um, and then the other thing, if you are a person of faith, and if you're Catholic, I, I, I say go to church, right. Go and, and, and to, but I say, don't just go, I want you to go meet someone. Right. And that's the person of Jesus Christ. Um, and I also say that I, and try and find out father's middle name.

right. Cuz you have to have a conversation cuz you can't Google that. And so it's, it's, it's those kind of little things, but, and also to be part of the seek now to be part of the community, like try and engage yourself, if you're able to whatever gifts they have. And then the last one is, is, um, are, are you choosing to be faithful to each other?

Of course, of course. Are you able to practice that now? Right. Cuz faithfulness is uh, more unfaithful as we say is I, I just say, quite frankly, it's having sex with someone who's not your husband or your wife and you don't wanna be in the practice of that before you're married, right. It's not a habit to have.

And so I encourage 'em to be faithful. So taking that time to step away, even what culture is saying today, but step away and say, can we as a couple, not engage in sexual activity or I say any genital activity, cuz you have to be pretty specific. This, this idea of can I truly love this other person in this way?

Because in doing those things, three things often helps him to grow into a deeper intimacy, uh, as well.

Yeah, it's not that the church is against a bunch of stuff. We're for a bunch of stuff. Mm love. Especially,

thanks so much for listening to the end. I know that was a long conversation, but if you wanna learn more about some of the things we talked about, like natural family planning, we've linked two resources in the show notes. One is a booklet called pure intimacy in the other is a talk called green sex.

Both are excellent. And I highly recommend that you check them out. And if you're curious about learning how to pray, we've linked a few resources in the show notes as well. Some YouTube videos and books to help you on that topic. Now, if you want practical tips on how to build a great marriage, we have a free guide for you because we all desire loved it last.

But if we're honest, most of us don't know how to build this. Especially if we come from broken families and to make matters worse, we're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriage will end that way again, especially if we saw our parents' marriage fall apart. In this practical guide for singles and couples, we offer a roadmap for love.

The guide contains seven practical tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage based on marriage, research time, tested couples and wisdom from Christianity. And so in addition to the written guide, you're actually gonna receive a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. So if you wanna get the guide and the bonus talk, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage.

Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/marriage. Just enter your name and your email, and we'll send you the PDF guide and the talk again. That's restored ministry.com/marriage. Or just click the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#072: Eating Disorder: What It Is & How to Heal It | Dr. Julia Sadusky

If you or someone you know has struggled with an eating disorder, you know how painful that experience can be. It’s often an overlooked struggle that really deserves more attention and resources. But thankfully, some resources do exist to heal an eating disorder. 

Today, a psychologist who specializes in treating eating disorders joins us. We discuss:

• The types, symptoms, and root causes of eating disorders

• Surprising statistics on the prevalence of eating disorders and how they can be lethal

• How genetics play a role in developing an eating disorder and why you can’t simply think your way out of it

• What a healthy relationship with food looks like

• Resources and advice you can use today to begin overcoming this struggle

If you struggle with an eating disorder or know someone who does, don’t miss this episode.

Buy Dr. Julia’s Books

Find a counselor

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Julia Sadusky

  • Dr. Julia Sadusky Website

  • Facebook

• National Eating Disorders Association

• Eating Disorder Foundation

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you or someone, you know, has ever struggled with an eating disorder, you know, how painful and debilitating that experience can be. And sadly, it's an often overlooked, struggling in our culture that really deserves more attention and more resources, but thankfully, some resources do exist to help heal an eating disorder.

Today, I speak with a psychologist who specializes in treating eating disorders. We discuss the symptoms, root causes and types of eating disorders. My guests share some surprising statistics on how so many people struggle with this issue and how an eating disorder can actually be lethal. We talk about how genetics play a role in developing an eating disorder and why you can't simply think your way.

We discussed what a healthy relationship with food looks like, and my guests share some resources and advice that you could use today to begin overcoming this struggle. Finally, sharper some tips to help a friend who's struggling with an eating disorder. And by the way, while I haven't seen any data that suggests that people who come from broken families struggle more with this problem with eating disorders.

We've certainly seen some anecdotal evidence that some of us cope with the trauma of our broken family by turning to food. So if you struggle with an eating disorder, if she knows someone who does. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage.

So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 72. My guest today is Dr. Julia Sadusky. You might recognize her because she's been on the show before in episode 12, 13 and 14, Dr. Sadosky is an author. She's a speaker and a licensed psychologist.

She owns her own practice. It's called Luxe counseling and consulting in Littleton, Colorado, where she offers individual family and couples therapy. In addition to consultations for individuals and families around sexuality and gender. She also serves as a youth and ministry educator offering trainings and consultations to counseling centers and faith based institutions.

Her other areas of focus include work with complex trauma, eating disorders and teens and emerging adults. Dr. Sadusky has coauthored a bunch of books, which she'll tell you about at the end of the show, but her most recent book is titled gender identity in therapy, which was co-authored with Dr. Mark Yarhouse.

Dr. Julia is currently a research fellow of the sexual and gender identity Institute in Wheaton, Illinois. And she's an advisor to the center for faith, sexuality, and gender. She's also a good friend of mine. So I'm so excited for you to listen in on my conversation with Dr. Julia, which was actually recorded in her office.

Dr. Julia. Thanks for coming on the show. It's good to be with you, Joey. I think you are our most common guests or popular guests. So where you come up, you've come on the show, the mouse. So it's great to have you back. It's good to be here. I'm excited to talk about eating disorders. I know it's a heavy topic.

It's a tough topic, but I think, uh, you have so much experience in this area, so much expertise. So excuse me. I think we'll start with an obvious question, which is like, what exactly do we mean when we say an eating disorder? What is an eating disorder? Yeah, so I think a lot of people, when they hear eating disorders, they most often think of one type of eating disorder, which, you know, we can break that down in a little bit though.

They might be thinking of anorexia where a person simply doesn't eat. And yet there are several types of eating disorders. And what makes them distinct from other types of mental health concerns is that they're pretty serious ways in which a person struggles with their relationship with food. That can include things like being obsessed with food, being obsessed with your weight size shape.

And again, there's, there's different types. So there's binge eating disorder. Bulemia anorexia, which is probably the most serious, but also the least common. So it's interesting that people think of anorexia as the only eating disorder when there's several, and it's actually the least common of the. Super interesting.

Do you mind just explaining what each of those are doing? Bulemia anorexia? Hmm. So maybe I'll start with anorexia because again, that's the one that most people understand. So anorexia is really when a person really tries to reduce their food intake, pretty significantly, that leads to extremely low body weight.

And so there's this pursuit of thinness really at all costs. It doesn't matter if I'm fainting at work. It doesn't matter if I can't think clearly it doesn't matter if I have headaches every day, that pursuit of thinness becomes more important than anything else. Um, it also comes with a distorted body image, fear of gaining.

And extremely disturbed behaviors around that. It's so things like checking myself in the mirror over and over again, um, just to make sure I haven't gained weight. And so that's one type, right? And then we have bulemia, which is probably the second, most understandable that maybe listeners have heard about, which is really where a person's combining things like eating large amounts of food, um, in a short period of time.

And that's called bingeing. So eating a lot in a short time, um, and feeling out of control when you do that and then trying to do something after to compensate. So that could be exercising that could be purging, which is like vomiting using laxatives, using diuretics fasting, anything to really try to compensate for the binge is bulemia nervosa.

And so like people with anorexia, they do fear gaining. And they're unhappy with their body size or shape. So that's what they have in common. And then binge eating is really take that first part of bulemia and take out the second part. So it's really where people are recurrently, binge eating. So eating a lot in a short period of time, feeling out of control while doing it, feeling distressed about that.

Thinking a lot about through food throughout the day. But again, the bulemia follows with exercise or fasting or purging, whereas binge eating doesn't include that compensatory part. Okay. Well, thanks for making that clear and I guess a follow up question, which is related to, so you've probably answered some of it, but what are the signs and symptoms of each?

And I'd imagine I was curious about this in preparing for this interview. I'd imagine that it's possible to have an eating disorder without maybe realizing it, is that true? Absolutely. So one of the challenges with eating disorders, and this is true from, I think mental health concerns broadly is I in a particular way here, one of the symptoms actually of anorexia.

Not having good insight into the severity of the problem. So a person can say, you know, I just skip meals because I'm intermittently fasting. I think about things like, uh, fasting during certain seasons of the years, for people of faith, for instance, and people can kind of rationalize that, or it's popular.

I have today certain diets and people say, oh, I'm just doing this diet. Or I'm doing that diet. I'm restricting that type of food. And it's really easily to enable people in that. And it's also really easy to rationalize it in a culture that is really obsessed with size, shape, and weight where we, we don't know, we have an, maybe a challenge in this area, but when we zoom out and talk about our relationship with food, we may see distortions in that.

So usually when I meet with somebody, instead of saying you have an eating disorder, do you think you have an eating disorder? I'll just ask them, what's your relationship with food? Like, um, You know, what emotions do you have around food? And that's much more helpful cause it's both about the food and it's not about the food when we get down to it.

Yeah. And you said it's about their relationship with food and then not the relationship with food. It sounds to me like it's part yeah. Part that, the relationship with it. And then part of it is the relationship with themselves. That's exactly right. Yeah. When I've worked in, especially in a hospital setting for eating disorders, one of the goals that we set for people is how do you disconnect your sense of self, um, and your sense of value from this idea that I have to be a particular size, a particular shape, a particular weight, and then I'll be sufficient.

Then I'll have value, then I'll have worth in the eyes of others and in the eyes of myself. And so you're right. It's very much. About the food and then about my relationship with myself and other people and how that ultimately gets projected on food at some point. So interesting. Anything else you wanted to add about the signs and symptoms?

No, I think, I think that pretty much covers it. Great. And another question I had was, um, how big is this problem? Cause I think some people are aware of it, others. Aren't so curious. How big is it? Yeah. So when we're talking about worldwide, um, eating disorders affect at least 9% of population. So in the us, about 28.8 million Americans have an eating disorder over the course of their lifetime, you know, less than yeah.

A big number, right. A lot of people. And, and I think. Again, we will talk at probably in a little bit about the myths, but there's so much misunderstanding about eating disorders. And so again, we often think everybody with an eating disorder is underweight and only 6% of people with eating disorders are underweight.

Um, wow. So 94% don't fit into that category of people who struggle with exactly. So, so the ways in which we would typically identify a person with an eating disorder, well, let me look at you, let me look at your size, shape, and weight and let that guide whether I think you have one and even for people themselves, they think, oh, no, I'm not maybe a Macy eight.

And in the way that I've seen on a documentary will I don't have an eating disorder. And here's, what's so challenging about eating disorders is that they are among the most deadly mental illnesses. Second, only to opioid overdose. Wow. And that's getting more intention attention, the opioid crisis, but this isn't necessarily, well, not, not quite in the same way.

I mean, it really has been siloed. I think where people who will work in the eating disorder world take really seriously the challenges we're facing with, with suicide. And then also the direct complications of eating disorders on people's health and, and longevity of their lives. And so, but once you get outside of that context, I, I think a lot of people don't understand eating disorders and, um, don't think often about it being one of the most deadly mental illnesses today.

Well, w uh, in what ways is it lethal? Is it because it leads to suicide or there are other complications as well? So, so a primary way is, is certainly suicide. So about 26% of people with eating disorders attempt suicide. You know, that's at least once in every one in every five, but the other ways, and again, this is the things we don't probably fully appreciate until we start talking about it is, I mean, think about what happens when our body is not being regularly nourished.

Literally by food, but also by a water intake, many people with eating disorders will restrict water. They will also use things like laxatives diuretics that dehydrate the body. And over time, if, if a person is vomiting, for instance, four to five times a day, um, taking in let's say 400, 500 calories a day and purging all of that, taking diuretics, taking laxatives, not drinking water, um, that has such a cumulative effect on the body.

The body can't function. So we see things like failure in the kidneys, uh, you know, bone density, losses that become really making it difficult to be mobile for people. And simply if a person's restricting enough of food intake, their heart can simply stop eating. And so that's probably where. More intensive settings, come in for people where they're in a hospital and they're put on a feeding tube, but those kinds of things to literally keep them alive because that's how challenging it is for that person to get the nourishment that they need.

So sad. Yeah. My goodness. You mentioned myths. I'd like to talk about that. What are some of the most common myths that you've seen as, as a psychologist when it comes to this problem? You know, I think one of the biggest ones, and I remember I was at a dinner party and it's always awkward as a psychologist to tell people what you do and where you work.

And I said to somebody, oh, they said, what do you do for work? I'm a psychologist. Oh, well, where do you work? I said, I work at a hospital for people with eating disorders. And they said, oh gosh, these young people today, they just can't, you know, make the right choice, just eat the food. And then that tells me two myths right there.

One is, it's all about food, you know, it's that simple. And the other myth is it's about choice. And if you talk to anybody with any mental illness, whether it's depression, anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia, eating disorders, we know that it's not merely about choice. And so to say, it's just a choice. You just have to eat the food.

Um, doesn't doesn't work because we're talking about mental illness here. And so it's not all about the food either. A lot of times it's about our relationship with ourself. Sometimes it's our relationship with our bodies, our relationships. You know what it means to be in a certain body size and the messaging we've received culturally or in our families about that.

Um, I've mentioned another one, you know, BMI, uh, there's a real obsession in our country about BMI and that BMI tells us if we're healthy. And so what we know though is that BMI is actually not a good predictor of overall wellness. Yeah. So our body mass index, um, and so when people, you know, go and stand on the scale at the doctor's office, for instance, many times, if your BMI is in a certain range, the doctor won't even ask about eating disorders and you see that in a particular way in different ethnic groups.

So, um, historically eating disorders are a Western problem, but many people of different ethnic groups. You know, African-Americans, Asian-Americans struggled with eating disorders. And what we know is that doctors will also not ask them because they assume it's a kind of a Caucasian issue. Um, and so a lot of people get undiagnosed, have different ethnic groups.

And then the last myth, I think that really irks me and it's, it's similar to the first, but you know, this is just people who want attention and that is perhaps the boost simplifying and reductive. Then you could say, yeah, the people that I meet with with eating disorders would love to not have an eating disorder.

In many cases, they would do anything including, and their life right out of desperation. I don't want to have this anymore. And so to imply that this is purely about attention seeking is so unhelpful and it only reinforces shame about the challenges that people are facing. Yeah. Wow. You made me think of any addiction really, but I've walked with people who've really struggled with pornography with less in general, and they have these unwanted behaviors.

Right. And I've heard a lot of people speak about this as if it's merely a choice. Like you said, where it's like, oh yeah, you just, just don't choose that. And it's like, oh, it'd be nice if it was that simple. But it's, that's just not the way that our brains work when we're in that situation. And it's sad that a lot of people don't understand it.

I've heard a lot of like very popular people like authors and speakers speak like this. And it it's sad to me because I think it, again, it's such an over simplification of a complex problem and the same thing applies in this case to that's right. It really doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually actively working towards wellness.

Hmm. You know, that's certainly not always the case, as you know, with anybody, with anything compulsive going on, some people don't really want to change yet, but a lot of people do. Yeah. And they're really trying to do the best they can with what they have. And we don't do each other any favors when we minimize the severity and seriousness of what the other person's going through, because it's really about me.

Right. If I haven't figured out in my mind, it makes me feel better that it doesn't help people with eating disorders. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It's no, it's a, it's a sad thing to simplify it like that. And you're right. I think there are people out there who don't care, right. That they're not trying to improve.

And I think that's probably what these people who are talking about this who may be shut up kind of dark light on it. If that's possible to shed a dark line on something, you know what I mean? So it's, yeah, it is sad. I, yeah. I think what I've seen is like a lot of this behavior and these compulsion's are truly unwanted.

And I think all of us can relate to that. Even if we haven't struggled in those ways, we can relate by saying that certainly there's different parts of ourselves that we don't like. Right. There's certainly there's things we do or things we say that we wish we didn't say or think or do. Right. And so I think in that way we can relate because I haven't met like a perfect person yet.

I don't know about you, but, so I think we all can relate at least on that level. There's like these dark sides to us that are certainly a part of our character that we can't just ignore, that we have to face. Admit that that's me. That's me like the good and the bad both. That's right. That's right. Yeah. I think thinking about it as different parts of us can be helpful to a degree.

And, you know, also recognizing, I know, I think last time I was on here, we talked about the function of behavior and being able to honor that everything we do has a function. There's a reason we do it. Um, we're not insane. You know, we have reasons for the things we do, even if they don't make much sense to us on day one.

Yeah. And it's much more helpful to like understand those reasons and even try to go to the root and heal the trauma or whatever is at the root than it is to purely give people tactics to manage it necessarily. Those, those that can be helpful in some scenarios. But I think it just doesn't go far enough.

Um, or to challenge people to become like masters in a way. Uh, I think there's much more that can be done by just truly understanding, uh, the root and then hopefully healing that as well. I want you to, if you would take us into the mind of someone who is struggling with this disorder, what are they thinking?

What are they feeling? I'm sure this varies from person to person, but kind of the typical person, maybe struggling with this what's going on inside them. Yeah. So there is a lot of emotion around nourishment. Um, maybe I'll start there. That's probably the easiest foundation to lay. So imagine you sit down, you know, for dinner, um, with a friend and first thing, when you sit down, you start to feel that anxiety rise in some cases, pure panic.

And what is the panic about? Well, the, the food may be represents, you know, a sign that I'm about to blow up, expand, take up too much space, too much in this relationship. And so I look at that food and I I'm having anxiety and panic and I don't want it, but I have to eat it because I'm with somebody and what's going to happen if I eat.

Hmm, and what's going to happen if I don't and what's, what is the other person going to notice? What are they gonna think of me? And all of that is happening internally. As you sit across the table from your friend talking about your day and the level of intensity of the, the anxiety. I think for many people is what really sticks out.

And, and that's why people avoid food, right? Like we avoid a lot of things that cause anxiety and stress as if I can avoid it long enough, maybe the anxiety will subside. But ultimately of course, when we avoid things, the anxiety increases over time and it reinforces that I have something to be afraid of that food is the threat.

Um, and then after eating, let's say you, you eat your meal or you eat half of your sandwich and then it's the shame and the. Oh, my gosh, I did something bad. I did something wrong. Might my eating disorder tells me never to nourish not to do that. That's bad. So now I've done that bad thing. I've eaten the food and now I feel disgusting and I feel like I'm bad.

And I feel like I'm not worthy of the food and I'm an imposter because I gave it to myself anyway. And that's where you get into to get rid of the disgust, right? People go to other behaviors to kind of purge the body, get rid of those feelings is the hope. And so that's where compensatory activities come in is to kind of release the negative emotion that comes up after nourishing.

Wow. Okay. That's so much going on inside the mind and said the heart of someone struggling with that switch people from the outside, looking. I don't know. And might even judge without knowing that, wow, I was, uh, I'm reading Dr. Meg Meeker's book, strong fathers, strong daughters. And, uh, in that she talks a little bit about eating disorders and she looked at it through the lens of like a middle school girl who, you know, wants to be admired by her peers once boys to be attracted to her once, uh, you know, look at on the sports field, like all this stuff.

And so in that example, I remember her saying. There were rewards that the girls were experiencing and she she's a pediatrician as if you don't know everyone listening. Um, so she works with like these young girls all the time, and she said, these girls experienced yeah. A reward of like, oh, I'm losing weight.

I'm looking thinner. And boys are attracted to me. People are, I'm getting attention and that light. And so I guess that that's kind of a common struggle too, that you're almost reinforcing that behavior. Absolutely. And that's the societal piece that I think we can dive into a little bit more, but just this the way in which we reinforce as a culture, uh, these ideas that young people, especially they get the message that they're.

If they look a certain way and it's reinforcing and it gets right at the core of the eating disorder, um, and perpetuates that in really powerful ways. And the other way we see that if you, if you want to get into the mind of somebody is comparison, the constant, this is where body checking comes in and looking in the mirror, you know, over and over again, and comparing to friends and comparing to people you see on social media, all of that comes in here and has a really powerful influence on, on a person on a daily basis.

And as you can imagine, takes them right out of the present moment, you know, how do you stay present to yourself and other people when you're being consumed with that level of stress, it's a lot to juggle. It's a lot to handle a related question at the root of all this. What are some of the common factors that contribute to the struggle?

Um, yes. So one of the things that people don't fully appreciate with eating disorders is. Many people have genetic predispositions to them. Um, and so that's both in the, in the context of maybe how people process certain neurotransmitters in the brain, but it also has to do with family history of eating disorders, anxiety related disorders, and the way in which our genes impact our personality traits.

So things like perfectionism, for instance, in the case of anorexia for being risk averse. So people who are hesitant to take risks, uh, we see that as a common personality trait that goes along with anorexia in the case of bulemia things and binge eating sensation, seeking. So people who are looking for a rush much in the same way as you see with substance use, how that can be something that predisposes a person to an eating disorder and things like neuroticism.

So high anxiety, about a lot of different facets of life. All of those personality traits can come in and again, predispose a person to an eating disorder. And then we get into experiencial, um, aspects of eating disorders. And certainly a lot of the people that I've worked with have experiences of trauma, um, and neglect.

And I think a lot of times we think only of trauma and we don't often think of neglect. Uh, we think, oh, trauma. Yeah, that's bad, but neglect. Uh, we all have, we all get neglected a little bit and I gotta be honest. I mean, there is just no difference in severity of the impact of traumatic experiences and experiences of neglect on people.

And so those are certainly factors that can come in with eating disorders and peer rejection is another big one. I remember one client who shared with me, you know, I got told over and over again that I was fat. And so I stopped eating and then I stopped getting told I was. And that's where it started societal norms.

Fatphobia this idea that people in larger sized bodies are somehow less responsible, less disciplined, disgusting people to be avoided unattractive. All of that messaging has a really powerful impact on a person growing up in our world. And if we look at people and I use that language intentionally in larger sized bodies, as opposed to saying you're fat, because number one, the standards we have for what it means to be fat today are very unrealistic.

And also it's such a derogatory term to talk about people who, for any number of reasons are in larger sized bodies than other people. Um, and then social media portrayals of course, show us a lot of unrealistic standards specifically for women, but not exclusively for women. And that really. If you look at Western countries and countries that become more westernized, we see increases in rates of eating disorders.

That's really fascinating when you think about it, that even, I remember traveling to Ukraine in 2016 and gave a talk on eating disorders. And they said we didn't see eating disorders in our treatment facilities until we became more rest westernized and had more social media access. So the power of that on young people in a particular way is really, I think, hard to fully appreciate.

Yeah. That's not trivial. My goodness, man. There's so much there and I'm sure we can continue this conversation forever. I remember hearing, yeah, just like, you know, friends growing up saying like, oh, I'm so fat or something. And I remember, but with a snarky boy in me has a teenager at least to be like, well, if you're a fat than other people, like, you know, not like they're really struggling.

Cause yeah. I think there's this like an expectation. Yeah. We have of being like on a magazine cover and it's just so ridiculous. It's like, you don't need to have like a 2% body fat to be healthy. And so it is sad how we put so much pressure on people. And I think women in particular, I'm sure men struggle with this too, but women in particular, I think are just the recipients of this assault on femininity and a lot of ways, but just on the body in general.

That's right. And I think maybe that's another myth I didn't touch on is a lot of you asked, do people often not know they have an eating disorder and I've worked with several men. I can think of who came to see me and said, you know, I'm just tired a lot because I'm not getting enough food and. They had an eating disorder and, um, you know, all these fad diets and intermittent fasting and the Daniel's fast, I think it's called and all of these different options for people.

Yeah. Make credible, restricting our food intake and tell us that if I don't eat for a long period of time, I'm more disciplined and more virtuous in some cases. And that on men and women both, um, really just has a really detrimental effect on them. And I think a lot of times we think, oh, this is a female problem with eating disorders, but certainly, um, we see that with medicine.

Thanks for saying that. Yeah. Is it, is it more prominent in one of the other, I was across the board. Is it like a 50 50 split? I'm just curious because, thanks for saying, yeah, it's a great question. We honestly probably have under representative prevalence estimates. So because men don't often come to treatment.

Um, so even working in an eating disorder facility, I think I worked, I can count on two hands, the men that I worked with. And I think a lot of that is because it's normalized to go and work out seven days a week as a man. Even if you work out for two hours every day, everybody's cheering you on for that.

And it's a little bit different for women. Uh, in that regard, you can identify compulsive exercise a little bit more easily in women than in men. And, um, certainly all of the research we have on eating disorders is more focused on the experience of women. So it's pretty challenging for men to see themselves in the experience and to come forward and say, Hey.

I not only do I need mental health treatment, which is already difficult for men, but I have an eating disorder, which feels like a, a female problem. And that can be a challenge for them in getting help. They need. Yeah, it's kind of similar to lust. I think a lot of women think less as a man problem, a male problem, but that is just so false and it's starting to be proven to be false, like on a large scale, which I think is good so that people can get the help that they need.

So now thanks for clarifying that that's, that's really helpful. Um, I, I was curious, you mentioned genetics and being able to. Identified these predispositions. Right. And we've heard of predispositions to alcohol. I think a lot of people know about that, but I didn't know. You could tell things like perfectionism and I kind of fall into that category.

I'd be curious. Like, is there a way, are there tests out there? To tell like, oh, I have a predisposition to this or that. Yeah. So what I came across this more when I worked in, um, inpatient eating disorder work, but they, uh, they do I'm blanking right now on the name of the measure, but it's, it's a pretty substantial tests that looks at, um, traits that have been mapped on for people with eating disorders.

And you can see the constellation of personality traits that you have and how they might factor in to the types of behaviors. Cognitive rigidity is another one. Um, and how that can map on in pretty understandable ways. When you think about it, if I'm rigid about different aspects of life and my experience, and I may also be rigid about food and calories and, oh my gosh, no, I can only have 1400 calories and that's it.

And if I have more than that, Bad things are gonna happen and you can kind of see that rigidity play out, but it's, yeah, it's pretty fascinating when you start to realize that, you know, certainly without certain experiences that kind of put you on a trajectory, it's not to say everybody who's perfectionistic has these types of things, but to know that it does complicate our process of certain behaviors and how we manage them over time.

Okay. That makes sense. And when we, when we say tests, is this a written test? It's is it a blood draw for everyone? So it's, um, a written test. So it's kind of, you know, you pick maybe statements, how true are these statements for me or, um, those kinds of things. So more of like an academic test than a blood draw or something like that.

Cool. Okay. Good to know. Yeah. I was curious though, for people, anyone listening right now who is maybe struggling with this, or maybe they're realizing that they struggle with us listening to us right now. What resources exist to help someone like that? Who's really stuck in this fight. Yeah. So there are a couple of facets to treating an eating disorder.

Um, I think a lot of times we can obviously think of therapy first and therapy is. Wonderful and helpful and important for people with eating disorders. I will say with therapy, I would recommend you work with somebody who knows about eating disorders. Um, a lot of therapists, sadly, don't get very excellent training on eating disorders.

And so they may be just as uneducated as the average lay person. And so you really, when you're stepping into that work, especially if you're really, really struggling with an eating disorder, you don't really have time to educate your therapist. Um, and so really being able to, you know, look for providers and I can talk about organizations that help you narrow that process down in a second.

But looking for providers who know their stuff about eating disorders is really critical. Um, there's really two other pieces though, that are important with eating disorder work. And one is dietary support. And in the same way, as with a therapist, you want somebody who knows eating disorders, you would want a dietician who knows eating disorders.

So there are nutritionists out there and dieticians who can actually. Cause eating disorders in people. Wow. Um, by teaching people to restrict their food intake, for instance, to get to a certain size, shape, and weight. And so being careful about who you go and see, but I do think the dietary aspect, especially early on is really critical because you want to know, like, what does my body need to function?

And a helpful dietician can map that out, help with meal planning, help with, you know, challenging thoughts that come up around meal time and just help think through and problem solve those things, help modulate exercise and make sure movement is in a healthy way. All of those things are really critical and then psychiatry as another one I mentioned, right?

How there's these genetic predispositions and a lot of times there's anxiety, depression, other things going on. So having a psychiatrist who can help with medication management can also be really helpful. Of course, there's other neat things out there, like art therapy, movement therapy that can help people get connected to their body or externalize emotions in helpful ways.

But ultimately there's a couple of support networks that might be good for people to know. So one is the eating disorder foundation, um, called EDF for short, and they have free groups, both virtually, and sometimes in person that people can go to and meet other people who have eating disorders and get support of all kinds and it's free, which is wonderful.

Um, and then Nita and EDA, the national eating disorder association has a ton of resourcing online. Um, and they can also direct you, both of those organizations. And Nita can help you find a therapist who knows eating disorders as well. And then finally, I'll say that I mentioned hospitalization before, and you know, when a person is really trying their best to nourish and to do the things they need to do on a daily basis, and they just can't make those shifts on their own, which is true for some people and nothing to be ashamed of.

There are hospitals in place that can help you with that and can give more structure and accountability and support around meal times, especially that can help people with reducing behaviors. Yeah. And the man there's so much shame around doing something like that, which is so sad. It's like, you know, we'd never shamed someone who struggling with cancer, go to the hospital and get treatment for their cancer.

But for some reason, in our culture, at least. It's almost unthinkable to go put yourself in a hospital. And my goodness, like you really messed up. Like, that's a sad that we think of it that way that someone has this desire to overcome this struggle or to, to feel whole again, and to be in a healthy place in their life that they're just so afraid and so taboo to pursue that.

Exactly. Yeah. It's a big sacrifice people make when they take those steps in a society that still has so much stigma around mental illness. And what does it mean about you as a person that you're taking that time away to in some cases sustain your life. And I often say to parents, especially who feel mixed feelings about a young person or a young adult going and taking time off work for months at a time to go to a hospital.

And I say like, do you want your child alive? I mean, 'cause the longer you wait, the worse, this gets. And we've seen that in so many ways with mental health concerns, untreated mental health concerns get worse. They don't get better. Yeah, man, and I have so much admiration for people who take those steps, who actually go to a hospital who go to, you know, whatever program is right for them.

And they take time off work to the point where, you know, maybe a lot of people end up finding out about what they're doing, which is so hard. Um, but, but there's so much admiration there because it takes such courage to just listen to that voice inside of you that says, okay, you know, you deserve to be healthy.

You deserve to be whole, and it's okay for you to take steps that maybe other people will judge you for, but it's going to be so much better for you and for the people that you love in the long run. Like what, what a heroic action in my opinion. Yeah. A lot of people focus on what will I lose? What will I miss out on if I take this step and recovery and wellness, and I often ask my clients, what do you, what do you gain and what do you lose by not right.

And we can kind of look back and see the ways eating disorders, Rob us of life and freedom and joy and peace and confidence in our true selves, as opposed to what we look like or what we think we look like on a daily basis, giving people the opportunity to really look back and say, wow, this has taken a lot for me.

And I have the opportunity to take my life back. So again, and I think that's amazing too, for people who maybe have a hard time taking care of themselves or investing in themselves, if you overcome this or at least in a manageable place with this, and, you know, you feel so much better, you feel healthier, feel more.

Not only is it just for you, but the people around you too, you're going to inspire maybe other people who are struggling with this, or even people are struggling with something completely different. You can empathize with them and help them maybe through something that's so difficult. And it's so relatable to talk with someone who's been through pain, who's struggled, who's, you know, taking these big steps to try to be healthier and whole.

And so I think, um, maybe you stop thinking about yourself so much in a way. I know that might sound odd because it is about you and that's okay for it to be about you, but maybe think of the other people in your life who will benefit from what you benefit from that's right. Yeah. It becomes a real gift and resource.

And I don't know that all of my clients, when they come to see me on day one, think of themselves that way is kind of a model, um, a source of wisdom, but I gotta be honest, you know, the people I work with this is true in general, but I certainly see it with eating disorders are some of the people that I admire most.

The courage. It takes to be honest with yourself about where you are and to seek support and be vulnerable and to be authentic, we, we don't have much of that in our society today. And we benefit from more people coming forward and talking about what they're really going through and to your point, being able to be a resource to others as well.

Yeah. What would the world look like if we all did? Ah, Hmm. That'd be a beautiful place. What would be different than it is right now? Yeah. I can hear some people listening right now thinking, okay. What's the line between, you know, wanting to work out a lot, maybe loving food or hating food, just not having a natural, like draw towards food.

Is there a clear line between an eating disorder and someone who just. Maybe they're just really into, um, intermittent fasting. How do you decipher those two? It sounds like it might be difficult. Yeah, it is difficult. I definitely wouldn't recommend people listen to this in self-diagnosis. I mean, I, I think this is part of the role of mental health providers and the key with eating disorders is, you know, we're not going to be as the best gauge of our own illness.

And so you do need people who you can share openly. Here's what happens for me when I see a plate of food or maybe that doesn't happen. But gosh, if I don't exercise on a day that I plan to. I shamed myself and then I skip a meal or I cut corners in my snack because I don't deserve it. And, and it's, it's not a clear line because we do have a society that's has a really unhealthy relationship with our bodies.

And so there's a lot of normalization of eating disorder, talk and conversation in our culture and not everybody meets criteria for an eating disorder. Um, so I'm of the mind that I would love for there not to be anybody who meets criteria over time. And, and yet, if you have a complicated relationship with food or you do feel a lot of shame when you don't exercise, you're skipping meals, you're feeling like you have to earn your next meal.

That to me is something that's worth talking about with somebody and. Doesn't meet full criteria. Well, at least you can work on it before it does. And if it does meet full criteria, then all the more reason to get in and to really get some support. Um, but again, I think as a society, we don't have a very healthy relationship with our bodies and food.

And so that does make the line a little bit blurry between those different pieces. Yeah. And just the inherent complexity of it too. It's like, there's so many layers to this. And so that, that makes sense, but that's really helpful. Thanks for clarifying that. So for someone who wants help, who needs help or know someone who could use help like this, you mentioned the groups, uh, what someone can, what what's something that someone can do maybe today, aside from go into one of those groups or booking a therapy session, what's something that they can do, like right now, as you're listening to this, or once they put down their earphones, you know, honestly, I think the biggest next step for somebody is telling somebody you trust that you resonated with what you heard.

So, Hey, I was listening, listening to this podcast and they were talking about eating disorders and there was a lot I could relate to. I don't know if I have one or maybe I do know that I have one and I just wanted to start with telling somebody, you know, can you hold me accountable and taking the next step, even if I'm not sure what that is yet, but maybe that is going back to my therapist who I'm seeing and bringing it up, or maybe it's reaching out to a therapist or getting on ETF's website and looking for a group.

But yeah, I think that next step is tell somebody who is safe for you about what you resonate with and opening that door to vulnerability can be really relieving and really freeing. Um, and it's a really concrete step that you can take today. I love it. I've been in that situation where I've had to reveal things to people that, you know, things in my past, for example, or I've been in the receiving end of it.

And I think beforehand you're like, this is going to go horribly and I can't promise you that I will go great. I don't know. Kind of depends on who you tell, but I'm careful choose wisely. And I always say with that, like it's wise to pick someone who, you know, who's suffered a bit. Um, I find that those types of people are more empathetic, typically.

Not always, but you know, they're, they're able to kind of receive that. They have the capacity for it. Cause some people who, and this is not to put people like this down at all, but people who maybe really haven't struggled much in life or haven't suffered much in life, which I'm really happy for them in one way.

But, but on the other hand, it's like, they might not be the best person to confide in about something like this, but anything you would add to that? No, I think that's right. I mean, You know, that's why I say, you know, if you're going to share it with somebody lofted off easy, not, you know, Hey, I'm I have an eating disorder, but Hey, I heard this podcast, would you listen to it?

And it resonated with me. And, and then if it's somebody that, you know, has shown up for you in areas of vulnerability, to be as honest as you can with them, and you may be surprised. I mean, a lot of people struggle in this area more than we would realize. And so being courageous in that, and you mentioned it's, it's scary to do it.

And it's also scary, not too many people listening, know what it's like to carry a secret alone for a long time. And it's a pretty dark and scary place there too. So it's good to remember that. Yes, it's, it's scary to take that step in vulnerability. And on the other side of that can be a lot of. Amen. Yeah.

A lot of freedom. Uh that's great advice. Thank you for everything that you've shared. I want to shift gears before we end to people listening right now, who maybe they have a friend who's come to them and told them exactly what you just said, or, or they can recognize that they're struggling in one way or another and they want to help.

They want to help. What should someone not say? I want to start there, which is someone not say or not do to help someone who's struggling with an eating disorder. Yes. So the biggest thing is do not make body comments positive or negative. And this is unpopular because a lot of people say, well, gosh, aren't you just kind of being dramatic.

And we ought to think about what that signals to somebody. Like it tells somebody pretty clearly that your value and worth hinges on what you look like. And are we prepared to say that about. And you can compliment somebody smile or compliment how radiant their eyes look or cute. Gosh, like you always dress so well, that's different than saying, wow, have you lost weight or, well, have you gained weight or while your cheeks look really big, it's like not, okay.

So body comments avoid potty comments, positive or negative because a lot of times what you do when you give a positive comment, a person with an eating disorder says, oh, I shouldn't eat less. That felt good. I imagine how it would feel. If I lost five more pounds, maybe more people would notice. And if you make a negative body comment, it reinforces there's something wrong with me and I've got to change it.

And I've got to manipulate caloric intake to do that. Don't police people with eating disorders and their eating habits. Okay. So if a person struggling with binge eating disorder, don't tell them, oh, you need to eat healthy. Hmm, don't criticize good food, bad food, healthy food, unhealthy food. A lot of times I hear this now and I'm sensitive to it, certainly, but people, oh, well, you know, I eat a big breakfast, so I'm going to have to skip lunch or yeah.

Thanksgivings tonight. So let's not eat anything before we got to earn it. I mean, those kinds of comments, reinforced, disordered, eating, finding things to talk about other than diets and latest fads in that you mentioned, you know, what, if somebody is fine with intermittent fasting, well, that's fine. Don't talk about it because then it becomes this kind of social commodity and it makes it out to be something different and that can have an impact on people.

I think a lot of people are pretty obsessed with this kind of health cut, conscious fitness conscious world. And I think we would do well to spend much more of our time talking about things that matter. And so don't talk about those kinds of things like food, find other. And, and let's see how our relationships improve.

Beautiful. Yeah. My, I know my friendships, my relationships always get better when I go below the surface. And I think a lot of those things you mentioned often are surface level conversations, which is sad. And, um, maybe it's more of American culture culture in the west, but I certainly know that it tends to say that our relationships tend to say that we're just so sad for so many reasons, but this being another one of them, what should someone say or do to help someone who's struggling with an eating disorder?

Yeah. So, so comment on a person's character, their qualities that you appreciate. Listen to them. Talk about the stressors of daily life, including food, like a person, being able to tell you that like Cassia I'm, I'm feeling really stressed because we're going out to dinner with colleagues at work this evening.

And I feel a lot of shame when I eat in front of. And being able to receive that. Thank you for telling me that. Wow. It means a lot that you would trust me with that. I admire your courage and being able to say that out loud, I'm encouraging people to feel their emotion. Meaning if a person's crying, if a friend is opening up and they're crying and they start to apologize, I'm sorry.

I can't believe I'm doing this. Ugh, I'm too emotional to be able to stop them and say, Hey, I'm grateful that you trust me with your tears because a lot of people with eating disorders and people, without them, we struggled to be able to get our feelings out. And so to be able to receive them is really helpful for people with eating disorders and people without them, and find ways to connect outside of exercise and food, sitting on the ground at a park and a picnic.

Instead of, if a person has an eating disorder, always walking with them or always making it about food while also letting a person know if it would ever help to have somebody to eat a meal with, or to call me while you're eating, just to have company I'm here for that honor their ability to have boundaries.

So if a person says, Hey, please, don't talk about that diet in front of me, respecting that, you know, and, and finally I'll say focus on food as nourishment and energy, rather than something that we can earn. So talking about food, that cash. Yeah. My brain is really foggy and tired. I need to eat some food as opposed to, Ugh, I, should I eat this cookie or not because I didn't run yet today.

I mean, that, that doesn't help. And so really changing our own relationship with food and nourishment and talking about it that way, as opposed to it being something that's tied to our. I want to stay there for a second. If you want to elaborate a little bit on that, like, what does it look like to have a healthy relationship with food?

You already mentioned a few things throughout this whole interview, but especially right there, but just give you an opportunity to add anything to that. Yeah. So there's an interesting philosophy right now called intuitive eating. And the idea is that our bodies are made to tell us the truth. So when I wake up in the morning, if I don't eat, my body will send me a cue.

My stomach will grow. Yeah, I'll get a headache. Those are hunger cues. And I think a healthy relationship with food involves listening to our hunger cues. And if we don't listen to our hunger cues, believe it or not, we actually stop having them. And so this is why people will say, oh my gosh, ever since I started fasting for 12 hours, I don't get hungry.

For 12 hours while your body has listened and it's gotten the message that you're not giving it what it needs. So it stops working and the way that plays out as it also then impacts fullness cues, which come next. And so that's where binge eating comes in and it's a person being able to listen to their fullness cues and to stop eating because wow, I feel Sasha.

I feel satisfied and then intuitive eating also involves like maybe, you know, on a random Tuesday night, when a person comes home from a dinner, they're craving something sweet and they can enjoy a cookie and not have guilt about that. Pap a bowl of ice cream and enjoy that. And that's the intuitive piece.

And then maybe other days I want a salad because gosh, that sounds really good to me on the menu, but it not being about good food, bad food, safe food, dangerous food, and really about what is my body one, what does it need today? Um, and being able to spontaneously respond to that and give the body what it needs on a regular basis.

Awesome. Great advice. Thank you. And fullness cues, just to tie this up, what would those look like? I think we all know what hunger cues are. Like, we've all felt those, but I don't know if people are as aware of like what fullness cues look like. Yeah, probably not. I mean, You know, what I often tell with clients about, and, um, is mindfulness in the context of eating.

So pacing myself in such a way that I can check in with myself while I'm eating and say like, how am I feeling about this meal? Like, do I want more, do I want less? And you know, as I finish up a plate of food, checking in with myself, taking a few minutes and just seeing what that feels like, and if I want more getting up and getting more, if I think I'm going to be wanting a snack in 30 minutes, that's probably a good sign.

I should eat more now. Um, and then, you know, if I'm starting to feel bloated or kind of weighed down or kind of like, I'm just eating to put food in my mouth as opposed to mindfully, like I'm hungry, this tastes good to me. Um, that's another good gauge of like, where am I at? Am I mindfully eating? Or am I just putting food in my body?

For more of an emotional reason. Yeah. No, that can be an easy thing to do, especially if you're at a party, everyone else is eating. It's like, oh, I'm just going to do that. And now that makes so much sense. It's like sign a fullness key. I've heard that before that, like when your diaphragm, when your stomach like hit your dye from the new kind of PSI, I dunno if you've heard that and maybe I'm off go, you know what?

I, I could see that I'll say that I could see that. I do think fullness cues are a little bit harder to operationalize, but I've certainly, I can tell you as I'm working with a client and we're having a, maybe a meal in the hospital setting together, and there is a moment where it's like, I feel good. I feel satiated.

And, and that's the question I ask people is like, where, where are you at? How full do you feel? Do you feel satiated right now? And they can check in with themselves and kind of figure that out. Sounds good. I hope everyone doesn't be like, did I just say, yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's the neurotic piece of all of us.

Am I doing it right? Uh, yeah. And, and it takes practice and our bodies, but our bodies want to be satisfied. You know, they need nourishment to function. And so trusting your body's ability, if you don't have hunger and fuel fullness cues right now to get those back over time. That's great. And I think one of the most helpful things that anyone who's struggling with this can do is to find someone to help them.

Someone who's specially trained in this, like you said before, And so I wanted to give that opportunity to tell us about your work, what you do. I know you have an expertise in treating eating disorders. Um, you've done this for years. You obviously, your practice is much bigger than that, but I would love for you to tell us about what you offer your, any books, how you do speaking.

Tell us about all of that. Yeah. So it's funny, a lot of my work and writing and speaking doesn't have a lot to do with eating disorders. So my specialty. Well, in addition to eating disorders is sexuality and gender. So if people were to look me up, a lot of my work is in those areas. So that can be sexual identity, same-sex sexuality.

Um, so LGBT experiences and gender identity, transgender experiences. So, um, that's a lot of the writing and speaking that I do, but yes, you're right. I have a specialty in eating disorders and I work with a lot of survivors of trauma who also have eating disorders. And so I have a counseling practice, uh, here in Littleton, Colorado, and it's called Lux counseling and consulting.

And I offer individual and family therapy, um, for people with a lot of different things, but including eating disorders. Um, and then I work with dieticians and psychiatrists in the area. So if people are looking for support with dietician or psychiatrist, certainly I can give referrals for those. This is a time where everybody seems to be benefiting from mental health support and a lot of people are reaching out.

And so, um, I'm not the only one out there. So if somebody was to reach out to me and I say, I have a wait list or that kind of thing, I'd be happy to connect people to other resources. But yeah, that's a little bit about what I do. Cool. Well, thank you. And is there one best way to reach out to you? Like how can people follow you and get in touch with you if they'd like to?

Yeah. So I have a website which is kind of easy, except I have a very difficult, last name to spell. So, um, it's my first and last name www.juliasadusky.com. And that's probably the best way to, to follow some of the work. I do, the writing and the speaking engagements I have, um, I have a Facebook page for, uh, Julia Sadusky Sidey that people can follow on there.

Um, so they're probably the easiest ways. Yeah. And we'll put on the, of that in the show notes. So you guys, so. Track that down. I did want to clarify one thing, you mentioned the, uh, you know, treating gender struggles. Um, you do it from a very unique perspective. I know some people listening might not understand that.

I know you personally, so I know that, but, um, yeah. What's your perspective on that? I know you work a lot with people of faith who are struggling in that area. Would you clarify that? Yeah, so, um, yeah, my specialty is really at the intersection of exploring sexual identity, exploring gender identity and, um, experiences of people, of faith.

So for a person of faith, how do I reconcile deeply held beliefs and values with experiences, challenges I have related to my experience with gender identity or sexual identity. And so I don't exclusively work with people of faith, but, um, it's kind of a niche area to work with people at that intersection.

So a lot of my writing is, is in that vein. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of people listening right now. And a lot of people out there who would benefit from this because. You're counter-cultural, you're, you're not, you're helping people on a unique ways, which I think is like so helpful and you're not doing it in a way that a lot of people in the world are doing it.

So I just wanted to give you that plug for that. So thank you for the work that you're doing and, uh, for helping, you know, all those people who need the help. Absolutely. Yeah. If you're interested in reading more, there's, um, a couple of recent resources out there, one emerging gender identities, which probably would be the most accessible to a person listening about just what do we make of where we are at in society and how we approach and think about gender identity and what are the ways.

Specifically people of faith can better respond than we have in the past two people navigating that space. Awesome. And you wrote that. Awesome. And that can get that on Amazon and that's right on Amazon. Yep. And it coauthored it with mark Yarhouse and it's called emerging gender identities, understanding the diverse experiences of today's youth.

Amazing. Well, thank you for all these resources. Thanks for all you do. You're a hard worker. Uh, man, your life has been so busy. I'm so surprised that you're able to do everything that you do. It seems like you're like, oh, I'm writing this book and that fuck. And you have a full client load and it's just amazing.

So I admire you, uh, Dr. Julia, um, what encouragement, just in closing, I don't want to give you the last word. What encouragement would you give to anyone who's struggling with an eating disorder? I really would want somebody listening with an eating disorder to know that you do not have to be bound by the reality that you live right.

A lot of people feel in the midst of an eating disorder. Like there's no way out they're trapped and something that offered you a life of acceptance and value and worth becomes something that you are indebted to and enslave to. And just for somebody listening to know that you don't have to be a slave to it forever, and there is treatment out there and it can help even in the spaces, in places of our lives that feel really hopeless.

Um, and so don't give into despair and trust your ability more importantly than anybody. Else's your ability to work through the things that you, that you're navigating and you don't have to do that alone. So if you struggle with an eating disorder, what's one thing that you can do this week to begin healing, some idea that you maybe heard in this episode, what can you do this week to take action on that?

And if you know someone who struggles with an eating disorder, what's one thing that you can do this week that maybe you heard in this episode to offer support and help them heal. And if you want to find a counselor, we went to help her building a network of counselors that we trust and recommend. And the benefits to using our network are we're going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor.

We'll connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and the tools you need to heal. So you can feel whole again. So if you want a counselor, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry.com/coaching. Just fill out the form it's really quick. And then once we find a counselor for you, we'll connect you with them again.

That's restored ministry.com/. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 72. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you're not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#071: My Parents’ Divorce Made Me a Child-Sized Old Soul | Professor Daniel Drain

Growing up too fast is a common experience for children of divorce. You’re often called upon to take on responsibilities that should never be yours. As a result, you may become a serious, mature person — even if you’re still a kid.

That’s what happened to our guest today, which he explains in this episode. In addition, we discuss:

• A surprising thing that helped him heal and begin to break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in his own life

• How his parents are also children of divorce, which naturally played a role in how they repeat that cycle in their own marriage

• What marriage is meant to be and why a false idea of freedom greatly hinders your ability to build lasting love

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• Daniel Drain

  • Twitter

  • Facebook

  • Email: daniel.drain@stbernards.edu

• Accredited Online Ministry Degrees | Catholic Master Programs – St. Bernard’s (stbernards.edu)

• Episode 21: How to Build Love That Lasts: The 5 Love Languages

• Torn Asunder: Children, the Myth of the Good Divorce, and the Recovery of Origins

• Love Alone Is Credible

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Inquire about an event: events@restoredministry.com

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

Transcript

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After my parents separated and later divorce, I feared repeating the same cycle in my own relationship and marriage one day. And so I became obsessed with the questions. How do I avoid that? How do I not repeat my parents' mistakes? Because I wanted authentic love, but had no clue how to build it. I think that's true for some many of us, we all want.

But if we're honest, we're not quite sure how to go about building a healthy relationship and great marriage. I think that's even more true for those of us who come from broken families. Nobody's showed us how to build love and a marriage. And that leaves us feeling discouraged and even hopeless to the point where we give up on love.

We give up a marriage, we give up on commitment and we even settle for the. In this episode, I'm going to share a talk that offers a simple roadmap to build authentic love. And so you're going to hear a snippet of that talk, which touches on a few things. First four signs that your relationship or marriage is headed off a cliff.

According to researchers, the biggest area of conflict in marriage and what to do about it. Practical tips that you can use to make conflict healthy. The one thing that makes conflict less than. And more manageable and finally, a resource that you can use to handle conflict better to make conflict healthier in your relationship.

And so if you want a healthy relationship in great marriage one day, whether or not you come from a broken family, keep listening.

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Poncherelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70 and that's part two of a small series. And what you're about to hear is a talk I gave to the college students of Ave Maria university in Florida.

The talk is titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research, the church and time tested. And so the content of the talk is not just my opinion or my limited experience within marriage, but it's really based on psychological research advice from really beautiful married couples who have built amazing marriages and finally wisdom from Christianity on marriage.

By the way, if that's not what you believe, you're not a Christian, you're still going to get a lot out of this. Talk, my challenge to you is just go into it with an open mind. There's a lot of human wisdom overall in this. I've given the sock primarily to college students and young adults. I think it's perfect for that audience, but older audiences have found it helpful as well.

But some of the feedback we've gotten from the young people, one woman who happened to be a newlywed, she was just married in the last six, seven months when she heard the talk, she listened to it three times in a row because she found it so helpful that the host of one of the events where I gave the talk said this, she said, a girl I just talked to on the phone, said that she was watching over zoom and thought it was so good.

Another young woman said it was probably the best talk that she's. Heard so lots of good feedback. I don't say that to boast, but just to assure you, this is worth your time. And so here's a snippet of that talk.

So tip number four, set healthy expectations for your marriage. Tip number five, learn to handle. This is so important. Um, one book said that conflict is the price you pay for intimacy. Conflict is the price you pay for intimacy that comes from the book, saving your marriage before it starts by doctors, Les and Leslie Parrott.

They're two psychologists. They're a married couple of men and a woman with the same name. It's hilarious. And so it's so true. It's so true. As you got close to someone in your life, conflict is inevitable. And in fact, if you're avoiding conflict in your serious relationship, it's usually not a good sign.

It either means you're a Saint or there's something off. And so the goal is not to avoid conflict, but rather to make conflict healthy, to make conflict healthy. So how do you do that? Dr. John Gottman, you might've heard of him. He and his team of researchers have researched. Marriage and conflict that for the past.

And what they would do is they invite married couples to their lab, which was this fancy apartment in Seattle, and then invite them out there on the west coast. And they would observe them over a weekend, let's say, and especially observed how they handle conflict. And now, supposedly this is kind of insane.

Supposedly they can predict with about 95% accuracy. Whether the couple is going to stay married or eventually get divorced. 95% accuracy. They're looking for four things, four bad signs that say the marriage is in trouble. Dr. Gottman calls those four signs, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I'm going to list them off quickly and then we'll go through each.

The first one is criticism. Two is contempt. Three is defensiveness for his Stonewall. Criticisms psychologists say that criticism and complaining are different. They're not the same complaining is saying something about someone's actions, right? It's critiquing actions. Let's say, whereas a criticism is attacking a person attacking their character.

They're not the same. Contempt is similar to criticism, but different. Dr. Gottman says this, he says, contempt is the intention to insult and psychologically abuse your part. And this looks like by the way, in a relationship, it looks like name calling. It looks like sarcasm. It looks like mockery.

Defensiveness is really the result of criticism and contemporary. We feel so attacked. We just put up our shield and defend ourselves. And this looks like blaming. It looks like making excuses and being unwilling to take responsibility. Stonewalling is a result of all these, right. These go into progression.

Stonewalling is where we just feel so overwhelmed. We're just done. We just emotionally check out. We shut down. We avoid our spouse at least emotionally. And, uh, supposedly 85% of Stonewall's are men. So this is something that we need to look out for our guys, especially, but these four signs is for bad signs.

Don't mean that your marriage is due. They just mean you're you're in trouble. And if these become habits, you're really heading off of a ledge. And so you need professional hub. Like now, if you see these in your relationship, those are the bad ways to handle conflict. How do we handle conflict in a healthy way?

There's five tips from that book, saving your marriage before it starts with the one at which I want to share with you, the first one is pick your battles, pick your battles, let the small things go get used to giving your spouse. This has been so helpful for me in my own marriage. My wife makes a lot of mistakes.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm definitely the one who makes more mistakes. Um, but you really, we can let things go. You don't need to voice your opinion about every little thing that your spouse does. Like you can let things go. You can bite your tongue. If they're big things, obviously bring those up. You can let the small things go extend grace.

Another thing you can do is practice. Put yourself in their shoes. It really requires you to detach from your emotions because in conflict, it's really hard to do this. And so one tactic they recommend is repeating what you hear your spouse saying, just to make sure you can fully understand where they're coming from.

Say it back to them. They say to define the real issue. So when tensions rise, you can ask the question, like, what are we really fighting about? Define what the fight is really about until both of you understand a little hint. It might not be the thing you're actually fighting about. It's usually something that's under the surface.

It's bigger than you really need to address. Take a break. They say, so our marriage, counselor, my wife, and I've been in marriage counseling. Uh, he taught us this little tactic called calling a time out. So when things get intense, uh, you needed to call a time out. So how does this work? It's a simple tactic before conflict.

You agree to a timeframe for a timeout. Okay. And it sounds like we're in a preschool, but it's sometimes we feel like that. But this is really good. So anywhere from 15 minutes to 24 hours, you set a set time. Let's say it's like an hour. And then in a conflict, when you guys are struggling, one of you can say, Hey, like I need, I need a time out.

And so then you take the time out. And then the person who calls a time out, they're the ones who keeps track of the time. And there were zoom the conversation as well. This is so helpful. It's been really helpful for my wife and I, because when we're emotional, especially when we're angry, our counselor taught us that our IQ.

By about 30 points or for those of us like me with an average IQ, that means like in the range of 70, which psychologists say is like the level of mental disability. And so we're literally trying to fight when we're super disabled and then finally actually resolve conflicts. So growing up, uh, we, my siblings and I barely saw conflict.

My parents. And they would tell you this, the way that they handle conflict, they would fight things, get loud. And then one or both of them will walk their separate ways. Like, I'm sure you guys have experienced that in your homes as well. So it set a horrible example for us to the point where I became really afraid of conflict and really unsure about how to handle it.

And so guys make sure you actually resolve conflict follow through here. And when you become parents, this is super, super important. When you become parents, make sure that your kids know that you've. Problems that they saw come up. Okay. So if you have a fight in front of your kids, make sure they know it's resolved.

Whether you do that in front of them, or later you go to them and say, Hey, mommy and daddy, we resolve this. My wife and I are trying to get in this habit. Now we've been doing pretty well with it. Um, where if our daughter who's seven months, right? She's, doesn't have an explicit memory at this point. Um, she sees this fight.

This is us fighting. We try to show her that, okay, we've made up we're we're good. Now we resolve this and we even say, sorry to her, that she had to experience. And so super good to make sure you resolve things. So if you want more tips like that, get the book, saving your marriage before it starts a few final things on handling conflict, uh, build trust, right?

Uh, conflict is so much easier when trust is high. Okay. How do you build. Th this is a whole nother talk too, but two, two quick things, vulnerability and consistency, vulnerability inconsistency, opening yourself up to even a scary extent and then continuing to show up so that, you know, you can rely on the other person, a business writer, pat Lencioni, Catholic business writer, pat Lynch.

He only says that trust makes conflict. The pursuit of truth. Trust makes conflict, that pursuit of truth. And so basically when we trust each other, when there's a conflict about maybe like, what should we do in this situation? That conflict is ordered to finding the best possible solution. It's not just a battle of egos.

Money is a huge area of conflict. It's the biggest area of conflict for married couples. It's one of the top causes of divorce, as I'm sure you guys have heard. So talk about it. Talk about money, make a plan for your money. Get on the same page with your money. I recommend Dave Ramsey's course. You can just look up financial peace university.

It eventually did really help my wife and I, and we have a good handle on our finances. So tip number five, learn to handle conflict. Tip number six, love your spouse. How they want to be loved.

If you want to listen to the whole talk, you can go to restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash marriage talk again. Restored ministry.com/marriage talk. Marriage talk is just one word, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. And in case you're not aware of one of the things that we offer as a nonprofit is coming into your school university, church, or event to give talks like the one you just heard.

And we have talks specifically for people who come from broken families and then more general talks as well. And so I've given talks for the archdiocese of Denver. The diocese of San Diego focus, the fellowship of Catholic university students, Franciscan university of Steubenville, avid Marine university, and the archdiocese of San Francisco.

And so if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, we'd love to speak with you. You can email us@eventsatrestoredministry.com. Again, events@restorativeministry.com. We'd love to speak with you about possibly serving you. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored minutes. Dot com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know, someone is really struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#070: Want a Great (Future) Marriage? Learn to Handle Conflict | Part 2

After his parents’ divorced, Joey feared repeating the same mistakes in his own marriage. He wanted to know, “How do I not repeat my parents’ mistakes?” He wanted authentic love but had no idea how to build it. It set him on a quest for answers and a roadmap for love. 

In this episode, you’ll hear a talk which offers a roadmap based on research, time tested couples, and the wisdom of Christianity. You’ll also learn:

• 4 signs that your relationship or marriage is headed off a cliff, according to researchers

• The biggest area of conflict in marriage and what to do about it

• Practical tips to make conflict healthy

• The one thing that makes conflict less scary and more manageable

• A resource for handling conflict better

If you want a build a healthy relationship and great marriage, this episode is for you.

Listen to the whole talk: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving & Divorce-Proof Marriage

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Inquire about an event: events@restoredministry.com

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

Transcript

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After my parents separated and later divorce, I feared repeating the same cycle in my own relationship and marriage one day. And so I became obsessed with the questions. How do I avoid that? How do I not repeat my parents' mistakes? Because I wanted authentic love, but had no clue how to build it. I think that's true for some many of us, we all want.

But if we're honest, we're not quite sure how to go about building a healthy relationship and great marriage. I think that's even more true for those of us who come from broken families. Nobody's showed us how to build love and a marriage. And that leaves us feeling discouraged and even hopeless to the point where we give up on love.

We give up a marriage, we give up on commitment and we even settle for the. In this episode, I'm going to share a talk that offers a simple roadmap to build authentic love. And so you're going to hear a snippet of that talk, which touches on a few things. First four signs that your relationship or marriage is headed off a cliff.

According to researchers, the biggest area of conflict in marriage and what to do about it. Practical tips that you can use to make conflict healthy. The one thing that makes conflict less than. And more manageable and finally, a resource that you can use to handle conflict better to make conflict healthier in your relationship.

And so if you want a healthy relationship in great marriage one day, whether or not you come from a broken family, keep listening.

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Poncherelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70 and that's part two of a small series. And what you're about to hear is a talk I gave to the college students of Ave Maria university in Florida.

The talk is titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research, the church and time tested. And so the content of the talk is not just my opinion or my limited experience within marriage, but it's really based on psychological research advice from really beautiful married couples who have built amazing marriages and finally wisdom from Christianity on marriage.

By the way, if that's not what you believe, you're not a Christian, you're still going to get a lot out of this. Talk, my challenge to you is just go into it with an open mind. There's a lot of human wisdom overall in this. I've given the sock primarily to college students and young adults. I think it's perfect for that audience, but older audiences have found it helpful as well.

But some of the feedback we've gotten from the young people, one woman who happened to be a newlywed, she was just married in the last six, seven months when she heard the talk, she listened to it three times in a row because she found it so helpful that the host of one of the events where I gave the talk said this, she said, a girl I just talked to on the phone, said that she was watching over zoom and thought it was so good.

Another young woman said it was probably the best talk that she's. Heard so lots of good feedback. I don't say that to boast, but just to assure you, this is worth your time. And so here's a snippet of that talk.

So tip number four, set healthy expectations for your marriage. Tip number five, learn to handle. This is so important. Um, one book said that conflict is the price you pay for intimacy. Conflict is the price you pay for intimacy that comes from the book, saving your marriage before it starts by doctors, Les and Leslie Parrott.

They're two psychologists. They're a married couple of men and a woman with the same name. It's hilarious. And so it's so true. It's so true. As you got close to someone in your life, conflict is inevitable. And in fact, if you're avoiding conflict in your serious relationship, it's usually not a good sign.

It either means you're a Saint or there's something off. And so the goal is not to avoid conflict, but rather to make conflict healthy, to make conflict healthy. So how do you do that? Dr. John Gottman, you might've heard of him. He and his team of researchers have researched. Marriage and conflict that for the past.

And what they would do is they invite married couples to their lab, which was this fancy apartment in Seattle, and then invite them out there on the west coast. And they would observe them over a weekend, let's say, and especially observed how they handle conflict. And now, supposedly this is kind of insane.

Supposedly they can predict with about 95% accuracy. Whether the couple is going to stay married or eventually get divorced. 95% accuracy. They're looking for four things, four bad signs that say the marriage is in trouble. Dr. Gottman calls those four signs, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I'm going to list them off quickly and then we'll go through each.

The first one is criticism. Two is contempt. Three is defensiveness for his Stonewall. Criticisms psychologists say that criticism and complaining are different. They're not the same complaining is saying something about someone's actions, right? It's critiquing actions. Let's say, whereas a criticism is attacking a person attacking their character.

They're not the same. Contempt is similar to criticism, but different. Dr. Gottman says this, he says, contempt is the intention to insult and psychologically abuse your part. And this looks like by the way, in a relationship, it looks like name calling. It looks like sarcasm. It looks like mockery.

Defensiveness is really the result of criticism and contemporary. We feel so attacked. We just put up our shield and defend ourselves. And this looks like blaming. It looks like making excuses and being unwilling to take responsibility. Stonewalling is a result of all these, right. These go into progression.

Stonewalling is where we just feel so overwhelmed. We're just done. We just emotionally check out. We shut down. We avoid our spouse at least emotionally. And, uh, supposedly 85% of Stonewall's are men. So this is something that we need to look out for our guys, especially, but these four signs is for bad signs.

Don't mean that your marriage is due. They just mean you're you're in trouble. And if these become habits, you're really heading off of a ledge. And so you need professional hub. Like now, if you see these in your relationship, those are the bad ways to handle conflict. How do we handle conflict in a healthy way?

There's five tips from that book, saving your marriage before it starts with the one at which I want to share with you, the first one is pick your battles, pick your battles, let the small things go get used to giving your spouse. This has been so helpful for me in my own marriage. My wife makes a lot of mistakes.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm definitely the one who makes more mistakes. Um, but you really, we can let things go. You don't need to voice your opinion about every little thing that your spouse does. Like you can let things go. You can bite your tongue. If they're big things, obviously bring those up. You can let the small things go extend grace.

Another thing you can do is practice. Put yourself in their shoes. It really requires you to detach from your emotions because in conflict, it's really hard to do this. And so one tactic they recommend is repeating what you hear your spouse saying, just to make sure you can fully understand where they're coming from.

Say it back to them. They say to define the real issue. So when tensions rise, you can ask the question, like, what are we really fighting about? Define what the fight is really about until both of you understand a little hint. It might not be the thing you're actually fighting about. It's usually something that's under the surface.

It's bigger than you really need to address. Take a break. They say, so our marriage, counselor, my wife, and I've been in marriage counseling. Uh, he taught us this little tactic called calling a time out. So when things get intense, uh, you needed to call a time out. So how does this work? It's a simple tactic before conflict.

You agree to a timeframe for a timeout. Okay. And it sounds like we're in a preschool, but it's sometimes we feel like that. But this is really good. So anywhere from 15 minutes to 24 hours, you set a set time. Let's say it's like an hour. And then in a conflict, when you guys are struggling, one of you can say, Hey, like I need, I need a time out.

And so then you take the time out. And then the person who calls a time out, they're the ones who keeps track of the time. And there were zoom the conversation as well. This is so helpful. It's been really helpful for my wife and I, because when we're emotional, especially when we're angry, our counselor taught us that our IQ.

By about 30 points or for those of us like me with an average IQ, that means like in the range of 70, which psychologists say is like the level of mental disability. And so we're literally trying to fight when we're super disabled and then finally actually resolve conflicts. So growing up, uh, we, my siblings and I barely saw conflict.

My parents. And they would tell you this, the way that they handle conflict, they would fight things, get loud. And then one or both of them will walk their separate ways. Like, I'm sure you guys have experienced that in your homes as well. So it set a horrible example for us to the point where I became really afraid of conflict and really unsure about how to handle it.

And so guys make sure you actually resolve conflict follow through here. And when you become parents, this is super, super important. When you become parents, make sure that your kids know that you've. Problems that they saw come up. Okay. So if you have a fight in front of your kids, make sure they know it's resolved.

Whether you do that in front of them, or later you go to them and say, Hey, mommy and daddy, we resolve this. My wife and I are trying to get in this habit. Now we've been doing pretty well with it. Um, where if our daughter who's seven months, right? She's, doesn't have an explicit memory at this point. Um, she sees this fight.

This is us fighting. We try to show her that, okay, we've made up we're we're good. Now we resolve this and we even say, sorry to her, that she had to experience. And so super good to make sure you resolve things. So if you want more tips like that, get the book, saving your marriage before it starts a few final things on handling conflict, uh, build trust, right?

Uh, conflict is so much easier when trust is high. Okay. How do you build. Th this is a whole nother talk too, but two, two quick things, vulnerability and consistency, vulnerability inconsistency, opening yourself up to even a scary extent and then continuing to show up so that, you know, you can rely on the other person, a business writer, pat Lencioni, Catholic business writer, pat Lynch.

He only says that trust makes conflict. The pursuit of truth. Trust makes conflict, that pursuit of truth. And so basically when we trust each other, when there's a conflict about maybe like, what should we do in this situation? That conflict is ordered to finding the best possible solution. It's not just a battle of egos.

Money is a huge area of conflict. It's the biggest area of conflict for married couples. It's one of the top causes of divorce, as I'm sure you guys have heard. So talk about it. Talk about money, make a plan for your money. Get on the same page with your money. I recommend Dave Ramsey's course. You can just look up financial peace university.

It eventually did really help my wife and I, and we have a good handle on our finances. So tip number five, learn to handle conflict. Tip number six, love your spouse. How they want to be loved.

If you want to listen to the whole talk, you can go to restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash marriage talk again. Restored ministry.com/marriage talk. Marriage talk is just one word, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. And in case you're not aware of one of the things that we offer as a nonprofit is coming into your school university, church, or event to give talks like the one you just heard.

And we have talks specifically for people who come from broken families and then more general talks as well. And so I've given talks for the archdiocese of Denver. The diocese of San Diego focus, the fellowship of Catholic university students, Franciscan university of Steubenville, avid Marine university, and the archdiocese of San Francisco.

And so if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, we'd love to speak with you. You can email us@eventsatrestoredministry.com. Again, events@restorativeministry.com. We'd love to speak with you about possibly serving you. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored minutes. Dot com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know, someone is really struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

How Restored Helped Me: "I Heard That I Was Worthy of Love"

3 minute read.

This is Angela’s story about she has been helped through Restored. She has given permission for her story to be shared.

What was the problem you were having before you discovered Restored?

I was fighting intense self-hate and a self-harming addiction that came from being continually blamed for the breakdown of my family and for my dad leaving. I was told that he left because of me because I was too hard to live with. I could not find anyone who understood what I had been through and who could help me heal. I had some kind friends in my life but even they did not really "get me" most of the time when it came to the divorce and struggles I was having because of it. My dear mom and sister understood, but they were going through the trauma with me and I needed someone who could be strong for me.

How did the problem make you feel?

I felt really alone, and like I was at constant war with myself. I felt like I had no one to turn to and like I would be trapped in a depressed, self-hating hole for the rest of my life. I felt like I should have and could have fixed my family and saved my parents’ marriage and that it was my fault that everything had fallen apart. I felt that I was not worthy of love. I reached a point of thinking I would be better off dead. It was a very scary, lonely place to be and I did not feel that there was any hope to get better.

What was different or unique about Restored?

At Restored, I experienced, for the first time, people who really understood what I had been through and was still going through. Not only did I feel understood but they also guided me to understand myself and to gain tools of healing to stop the self-hate and self-abuse I had fallen into because I believed the abusive people in my family, who blamed me for everything. For the first time in my life, I heard, consistently and kindly, that the divorce and breaking apart of my family was NOT my fault and that there was nothing I could have done to save it. I heard that I was worthy of love and that healing was possible but that part of my heart would always ache and that that was ok. It was the message I had so desperately needed to hear for so long.

Take us to the moment when you realized Restored was actually helping you.

It was a gradual process but I remember the first time I met with Joey, the first time I experienced Restored, and how amazing it was. He listened to me, REALLY listened and I could tell how much he cared about my pain, how much he understood me, and I remember feeling like I had finally found the level of empathy and compassion that I had craved for so long. I was able to really open up about my pain without having to hold some things back and for the first time, I was told that it was not my fault and that I was not responsible to fix my family's mess. It was so freeing.

Tell us how different your life looks now.

Through the amazing, caring guidance and help that Restored has continued to give me and through the sources, their podcasts and the books, extra therapy, and articles that I have found through them, I have come to a place of self-love, self-compassion, and healing that I never expected to reach. My life is still hard and the wounds are still there in many ways, but I no longer feel at war with myself, no longer feel alone, or like I have to punish myself. I have overcome my self-harm addiction, gained confidence in telling my story, and learned how to have healthy boundaries in my life. This I owe in great measure to Restored. They walk with you. They guide you at each step of the healing journey. They do not just say that they care, they really do care.

What's your favorite thing that Restored offers?

I have been so helped by the personal coaching. Joey is amazing in how he listens and really cares and in the suggestions he offers. And one of the biggest gifts that I received through Restored was being told about intensive trauma therapy that a beautiful therapist in Ohio, Margaret Vasquez, offers. I heard about it first through Joey and then on the Restored podcast and I went because I trusted him and he encouraged me to go. Through that therapy, I found out how to love myself and stop abusing myself. I finally understood that the past trauma I had gone through was not my fault. I gained a new chance at life and stopped wishing I had never been born. It was the most amazing experience and I will be forever grateful to Restored for leading me there.

What Is Restored?

2 minute read.

Whether you’ve just come across Restored, or you’ve been following us for a while, a little introduction never hurts. So if you’ve ever wondered ‘what is Restored?’ or ‘how does Restored help people from broken families?’, this article is for you.

WHAT IS RESTORED (RestoredMinistry.com)?

Restored is a ministry that serves teens and young adults from broken families. Our mission is to give children of divorce practical guidance on how to heal from the trauma of their parents’ divorce, so they can feel whole again. Our founder, Joey Pontarelli, started Restored because of the pain he experienced when his own parents divorced when he was 11 years old. Searching for help, he was shocked at the lack of resources for young people from broken families. Years later, he began Restored to help meet the needs of this population.

HOW DOES RESTORED (RestoredMinistry.com) HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM BROKEN FAMILIES?

Restored gives teens and young adults from broken families practical guidance to heal from the trauma of their parents’ divorce. This is primarily done in three ways: coaching, content, and community.

COMMUNITY: Restored offers a free and private online community for teens and young adults from broken families. This allows them a space to share openly about the struggles they are experiencing, and receive advice and empathy in return. In this way they can get the support they need for the difficulty they are experiencing and become stronger people.

COACHING: Restored has a free national referral network of counselors and spiritual directors that are vetted and trusted to help meet the specific needs of this population. These one-on-one sessions will help children from divorced families process the trauma they have experienced, and work through the deep-rooted effects that often come as a result. 

CONTENT: Restored offers content through the Restored podcast and blog, as well as talks in churches, schools, and universities across the country. Restored content includes coping tactics for managing the pain from your parents’ divorce, evidence-based steps to heal the brokenness, time-tested ways to build a thriving and divorce-proof marriage, and practical tools that take the confusion and obstacles out of healing.

Restored also recently published a book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce. This book covers questions such as: “I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident?”, and “How do I avoid repeating my parents’ mistakes, and build a healthy marriage?”, as well as “What is grieving and how does it work?”. In a simple Q&A format, this short read addresses the problems that children of divorced parents often face as well as simple, science-based strategies to help overcome them and find healing. 

WHY RESTORED?

Although often overlooked, teens and young adults from broken families have serious problems. Children of divorce are more likely to:

• Struggle in romantic relationships

• Get divorced 

• Struggle in relationships with their parents

• Attempt suicide

• Experience emotional problems like depression, anxiety, and loneliness.

• Struggle with low self-esteem

• Experience health and social problems

Restored is the only non-profit organization that is exclusively dedicated to helping teens and young adults heal from the trauma of their parents’ divorce. The founder and employees have experience with this type of pain and so are well-equipped to understand and address it.

WHERE TO START?

If you are looking for help with healing from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, you’re in the right place. To begin your healing journey, you can fill out the intake form for the coaching network, order a copy of the Restored guide to healing, join the community of people who are facing similar struggles, or check out the podcast that covers a multitude of topics from healing to relationships to growing in virtue.

HOW CAN I HELP?

If you are interested in supporting our mission, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to our non-profit organization, or contact us for more ways to help.

Regardless of where you are in your healing journey, we want to help. Together we can undo the cycle of divorce and dysfunction. 

#069: Want a Great (Future) Marriage? Do This | Part 1

After his parents’ divorced, Joey feared repeating the same mistakes in his own marriage. He wanted to know, “How do I not repeat my parents’ mistakes?” He wanted authentic love but had no idea how to build it. It set him on a quest for answers and a roadmap for love. 

In this episode, you’ll hear a talk that offers a roadmap to build love based on research, time-tested couples, and the wisdom of Christianity. You’ll also learn:

• An ingredient that research shows is essential to build a healthy relationship and great marriage

• Answers to the questions:

  • Can love actually last?

  • When feelings fade in your relationship, does that mean the end is near?

  • Is love worth the risk and possible hurt?

• A challenge to build love that lasts

If you want a build a healthy relationship and great marriage, this episode is for you.

Listen to the whole talk: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving & Divorce-Proof Marriage

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla

• The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis

• Inquire about an event: events@restoredministry.com

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

Transcript

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After my parents separated and later divorce, I feared repeating the same cycle in my own relationship and marriage one day. And so I became obsessed with the questions. How do I avoid that? How do I not repeat my parents' mistakes? Because I wanted authentic love, but had no clue how to build it. I think that's true for so many of us, we all want.

But if we're honest, we're not quite sure how to go about building a healthy relationship and great marriage. I think that's even more true for those of us who come from broken families. Nobody's showed us how to build love and a marriage. And that leaves us feeling discouraged and even hopeless to the point where we give up on love.

We give up a marriage, we give up on commitment and we even settle for the. In this episode, I'm going to share a talk that offers a simple roadmap to build authentic love. And so you're going to hear a snippet of that talk, which touches on a few things. First, it touches on an essential ingredient that research shows is necessary to build a healthy relationship and great.

The talk answers. The questions can love actually less. So many of us doubt that when feelings fade in your relationship, does that mean the end is near and is love even worth the risk and the possible hurt. And then finally the talk offers a challenge for you. And so if you want a healthy relationship in great marriage one day, whether or not you come from a broken family, keep listening.

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 69 and it's part one of a small. Series. And what you're about to hear is a talk I gave to the college students of Ave Maria university in Florida.

The talk is titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof, marriage, actionable advice from research, the church and time tested. And so the content of the talk is not just my opinion or my limited experience within marriage, but it's really based on psychological research advice from really beautiful married couples who have built amazing marriages and finally wisdom from Christianity on marriage.

By the way, if that's not what you believe, you're not a Christian, you're still gonna get a lot out of this. Talk, my challenge to you is just go into it with an open mind. There's a lot of human wisdom overall in this. I've given the sock primarily to college students and young adults. I think it's perfect for that audience, but older audiences have found it helpful as well.

But some of the feedback we've gotten from the young people, one woman who happened to be a newlywed, she was just married in the last six, seven months. When she heard the talk, she listened to it three times in a row. Because she found it so helpful that the host of one of the events where I gave the talk said this, she said a girl I just talked to on the phone, said she was watching over zoom and thought it was so good.

Another young woman said it was probably the best talk that she's ever heard. So lots of good feedback. I don't say that to boast, but just to assure you, this is worth your time. And so here's a snippet of that talk.

Find a virtuous bouts or help your spouse build virtue. Tip number three, purify your idea of love. So marriage research shows that one of the essential ingredients to a great marriage is a realistic concept of love. In other words, knowing the truth about love it's Catholics. We kind of have an advantage here, but even for us, there's so many lies in the world when it.

To love. And so one of the lies that I fell into, and perhaps you can relate to this is thinking that love didn't actually last, like eventually it would crash and burn. It would fall apart and seeing my parents for a marriage fall apart, seeing them get divorced. This was ingrained deep inside of me. I really believe that love didn't last.

And even if it could last for some people, I didn't think it could last forever. But the truth is that love can last marriage can last, I've seen it. I've seen really beautiful couples. There's two in particular that I always think of that have been such an inspiration and even mentors to me, they've proved to me that love can not only last, but it can be really good and really beautiful.

I want my marriage to be like theirs. I hope you guys have couples like that in your life who can prove to you that love can last, especially. If you're doubting it because of what you've seen growing up, what you've seen around you and love can also last because we can choose to make it last love is a choice.

Another lie that I fell into was believing that feelings equal love, like intellectually. I knew this wasn't true, but for a long time on a subconscious emotional level, I definitely believe that feelings were the measure of love. More feeling more, love, less feeling, less love. And so in my relationships, when feelings would begin to fade, as they naturally do over time or change, I would freak out.

I become really anxious, like, wow, like is love ending. Am I going to lose this person? And so what I needed is, was to purify my idea of love. And John Paul, the second who really showed me the truth, when it came to love, says that love is not merely a feeling. It is an act of the will that consists of choosing in a constant manner.

The good of the blue. To the good of oneself and so feelings, they're a part of love, but they're only a part and there's certainly not the measure of authentic love. And so in your relationships, like all of you, like in your relationships, wherever you go in life in your marriages, when you're feeling start to fade, your love is not doomed.

It's actually just an invitation to love on a deeper, more mature level. And it's actually a good thing if you think about it, because you're forced to choose. What do I love more the feeling or the person? And so in our dating relationship, I would say it's problematic. If you've never had a romance like romantic feelings for a person, I think you should have romantic feelings for someone at least initially.

Um, but it's really important that we don't make decisions based on emotion alone. Like when in life is a good to make a decision on emotion alone and the real danger, if we just trust our emotions with these. So we'll end up walking away from a good relationship or even a marriage because we just don't feel it.

There was a study that asked divorce people. Why did you get divorced? And one woman, one woman said that. She said, I realized it was the lack of commitment on my part because I really didn't feel romantic toward him. I always felt like he was more of a friend to me how tragic, like obviously their romance needed a spark, but how sad to walk away?

From your relationship because you didn't feel romantic. Another lie that I believed was that love is too risky. It's not worth the risk. And it's true. Like if you love someone, if you put your heart out there, you're probably going to be hurt. It's going to happen. Any of you have been through breakups, you already know this.

I don't need to tell you this, but you know, it's more dangerous, you know, what's worse than being hurt. Never loving. CS Lewis. He said it the best CS Lewis said that she said to love it all to be vulnerable, love anything in your heart will be rung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give it to no one, not even an animal rapid, carefully around with hobbies and little luxuries of what all entanglements lock it up, safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.

But in that casket, safe, dark motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken. It will become unbreaking. Impenetrable irredeemable to love is to be vulnerable. So that's the danger that if we don't love, we don't risk. If you don't be vulnerable, our hearts will become hard. And the truth that I've learned is that love is worth the risk.

Sure. There's pain involved, but if you work at it, the good far outweighs the bad and your life won't become easier. When you got married, when you choose to love. But your life will get better. And if you struggle here, if you struggle with this fear of being hurt, fear of intimacy, love marriage, all that.

I totally get this. That was me in high school. And even in college, I was terrified of love, relationships, dating, all that stuff. And it was primarily rooted in the fact that my parents' marriage fell apart. And I just didn't want that to eventually happen to me too. And so to overcome that fear, what I had to do is slowly begin to be vulnerable, especially in my relationships.

Relationships and by relationships, I mean my friendships. And so I did that in little ways and helped so much eventually to the point where I was able to pursue and date women one at a time. But, but slowly I was able to continue to overcome it and where it didn't control me, it didn't control me. And so I felt free.

I felt free to the point where, when I met my wife, I was able to pursue her, to ask her, to marry me. And now we're married and we're building our family. We have a baby girl she's seven months old. She's the. Thing ever. We're completely obsessed with her. Like

I was a guy. I would show you guys a picture if I could, but I don't think we have that all set up, but, but I I'm just, I'm just in awe that like, by God's grace, I don't say credit for this, but by God's grace, I am where I am, because I just kept taking little steps, relying on his grace to overcome this fear.

If I can do it, you can do it too. If that's. Do it scared do it gradually. Don't wait for your fear to disappear. Don't wait for that. It's not going to happen. Do it scared. Do it gradually act in spite of your fear, which is really the definition of courage. And it's okay for those of you, especially who come from broken families and you're really scared.

Um, it's okay. If you have to go a little bit. So my challenge for you guys here is to purify your idea of love. One exercise that you can go through with this is make a list of what you believe about love. Like on a subconscious level, it takes some time, take some work to identify those lies that you believe in are like acting on.

But once you know them, you can seek the truth. You can set up. Those lies with the truth. And so the question that you can think about pray with make lists, journal, all that good stuff is what lies do you subconsciously believe about love? So tip number three, purify your idea of love. Tip number four, set healthy expectations for your marriage.

Another central ingredient.

If you want to listen to this. Talk, you can go to restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/marriage. Talk again. Restored ministry.com/marriage talk. Marriage talk is just one word, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. And in case you're not aware, one of the things that we offer as a nonprofit is coming into your school university, church, or event to give talks like the one you just heard.

And we have talks specifically. People come from broken families and then more general talks as well. And so I've given talks for the archdiocese of Denver, the diocese of San Diego focus, the fellowship of Catholic university students, Franciscan university of Steubenville, avid Marine university, and the archdiocese of San Francisco.

And so if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, we'd love to speak with you. You can email us@eventsatrestorativeministry.com. Again, events at restorative ministry. Dot com we'd love to speak with you about possibly serving you. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 69.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know, someone is really struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#068: An Underrated Tactic to Heal from Your Parents’ Divorce | Salvatore Fiorenti

If you’re from a broken family, did your parents’ separation or divorce drag out for years? That was the story of our guest today. 

In this episode, you’ll hear what happened in his family and how it affected him. We also discuss:

• How he learned from an early age that his needs weren’t going to be met, so he had to figure out things for himself

• How our parents seem to have grown during the separation and divorce, but as their kids, we can’t help but ask the question: Why couldn’t you grow together?

• An underrated healing tactic that will help you heal, grow, set better boundaries, have healthier relationships, and feel at peace

• An important skill you have to learn if you want to heal, grow, and feel whole again

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Share your story
Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Salvatore Fiorenti’s Email

  • fiorenti@cua.edu

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're from a broken family, I'm curious, did your parents' separation and divorce drag out for years? That was the story of my guest. Today, as you'll hear in this episode, you also hear what happened in his family and how it affected him. In addition to that, we discussed how at an early age, he learned that his needs.

Weren't going to be met. So he had to figure things out for himself. He shares how we fell into bad habits, but after getting away from those, he then struggled with focusing so much on others and trying to rescue them that it became unhealthy too. We also talk about how our parents seemed to have grown during their separation and divorce, but as their kids were kind of torment with the question, why couldn't you just grow together?

He shares an underrated healing tactic that will help you heal, grow, set, healthy boundaries, have healthier relationships and feel at peace. We also discuss an important skill. You have to learn if you want to heal, grow and feel whole again. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is. 68, as you might have heard. My new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken families, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation and divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's break down. And without that guidance.

They continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more. And I experience these problems firsthand. It really shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teen to young adults from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions? The content is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pained problems.

They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, they'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. So if you wanna buy the book or even just get the first chapters for free, go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, restored ministry.com/books, or just click the link in the show notes today. My guest today is sale fear. Entity sales parents had a drawn out divorce and are not UN speaking terms. As a student of life. He has learned to advocate for himself and reflect on personal growth challenges. Sal is currently in school for his master of social work degree and enjoys spending time with his dog.

Charlie he's creative, funny and caring. Sal has only recently started talking about how his parents failed marriage has affected him. He's interested in connecting and supporting individuals wherever they may be in the process. He wanted to give a special shout out to resort's community for which he is grateful.

So shout out to everyone in resorts, online community. And here's my conversation with Sal

Sal. It's great to have you on the showman. Thanks for making time for us. Thank you, Joey. I know we have a lot to talk about, so I wanna dive right in. Uh, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? So my parents got separated. I wanna say maybe when I was around nine or 10 years old. And at that time I really wasn't too sure what plants my parents had in terms of their marriage.

It might have been introduced as, uh, your dad needs some time to figure things out. You know, it was unclear. and that wasn't, that wasn't the final, I guess, conversation about, about that. Uh mm-hmm so my parents, I think, tried to make it work throughout my, uh, childhood in young adult years, but most of my childhood and young adult years, my parents lived separately and my childhood home, uh, was finally sold at the start of the pandemic.

So my parents. Dragged out the separation and divorce for quite some time. And I am 30. I will be turning 32. So maybe 2019 is when you know that that last piece of the divorce was sort of finalized. Okay. No, I follow you. Wow. That that's very drawn out. So things were kind of tumultuous or at least disjointed for you for years growing up and then kind of got finalized just recently.

So this is pretty fresh for you within the last, you know, few years, at least. So I appreciate you, you coming on and sharing what, what happened between your parents that led to all. I would say a main, the main issue really was, uh, a breakdown in communication, uh, between my dad and my mom, my dad, he is very short with his, uh, responses and he, he does tend to be pretty controlling.

My mother is somebody that likes to, uh, weigh options, have conversations about things. I would just say a lot more, uh, emotionally intelligent. and, um, it just from the get go, now that I'm older and I've had relationships and I, and I know how challenging they can be as well as, as, as rewarding for them to.

Go about life and try to figure, figure things out together as a team. Uh, they're just, their communication styles were completely different. So it was, uh, it was very hard. It, it, it seemed from what I can remember, uh, that either my dad had his way or my mom had her way. And I, I just, I struggle remembering a time where, you know, maybe both of their input created some sort of result or some.

Okay. Yeah. So you, what you witness over the years, like you said, was not them minutes like this United front a team working together to, you know, make the best decisions to resolve any issues that came up, but rather kind of them living on their own, which ultimately played out in them, not living together for.

You know, periods of your childhood. So that all makes sense. How did you see all of that that happened in your family, the breakdown of your parents' marriage, the separation, the later divorce, how did you see all that affect you personally? I think the main thing that really came up for me was in, in all the craziness, uh, I learned that my needs weren't going to be met and, uh, I didn't, I didn't really advocate much for myself at that age.

Uh, I didn't go up to a teacher and say, Hey, you know, what's going on at home is pretty crazy. Mm. Or, you know, when I was at my dad's workplace, you know, I could have, I could have pulled one of his colleagues aside and, and could have asked, you know, what's he like when he is here? You know, I definitely kept a lot of stuff to myself and just really focus on a lot of other people to sort of distract, distract myself from, you know, my, my inner Turmo.

So I would say if I'm not advocating for myself, if I'm not aware for my, uh, not aware of my needs, then I probably, I know I struggled with, uh, setting boundaries with people, uh, in relationships, I would say finding the middle ground and, and compromising has been difficult for me. Mm-hmm . so, you know, those are areas that, that I'm still, uh, working on.

No, absolutely. I think it's always a work in progress, even for people who've maybe made some, um, improvements in their life. There it's always, there's this dichotomy to balance in a lot of ways. So that, that totally makes sense. I mean, I wanna go back to something you said about kind of focusing on others.

I noticed that in myself too, uh, for a lot of, you know, the aftermath of my parents' separation. I tended to kind of initially I was so hurt that I just acted out in all sorts of unhealthy ways. Like by getting sucked into pornography, you know, getting, being super angry, having a lot of emotional problems and, and other ways of acting out.

But in time, I was able to kinda, you know, put that in the past that stuff in the past, which was really freeing. Uh, but then I kind of fell into this being a rescuer and trying to, instead of maybe dealing with my own pain and my own needs, I kind of just shoved them down. And I decided to focus on what I thought was loving other people, which in a lot of ways, looked like.

Solving their problems filling their needs. Um, which I think the desire was good, just the way I went about it often. Wasn't the healthiest. And so I'm curious how that played out in your life, cuz obviously, you know, you're becoming a social worker now you're dedicating your life to helping people, which is such a good and beautiful thing.

But as we've talked separately, there's a balancer. Of course. So I'm curious, kind of yeah. How that played out in terms of being a fixer, being a rescuer in terms of maybe distracting you from, uh, the pain that you were dealing. Sure. Uh, well, I just also wanna say Joey, you know, thank you so much for, uh, everything that you do and, uh, you know, really prefacing this question by being transparent and, you know, talking about how you've struggled.

So of course ma'am yes, I, I I've definitely, uh, can relate to so much of what you're saying. Uh, for me, impulse, uh, in my younger years, you know, led me down many of those paths as. And, uh, yes, I mean, I am pursuing social work. Uh, I do work with people that are vulnerable and are working on themselves and there is, there is this reward that I, that I get from it, uh, I think over the years and I probably will continue working on this.

It seems like it's a lifelong journey is I think the more accepting that I am of myself. The less need, I will feel to rescue someone else. Uh, we were talking just before we started the conversation about being a compassionate presence. So, you know, I'm, I'm getting all of this training, uh, but what good is it?

If I can't meet people where they are, I don't wanna start projecting my insecurities on them. You know, I, I can be there for them. Uh, I could show them that I care and that I'm interested in their story. More or less guide them through their journey. Yeah. Not so much about giving them answers or celebrating this epiphany moment.

They may have. It's probably more, it's more or less about setting up guardrails and letting them letting them. Choose a direction how they wanna move in. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. And something you said really struck me about how becoming more accepting of yourself would give you the ability. I I'm paraphrasing here of setting those boundaries properly and not projecting your own needs and your own, um, struggles onto the people that you're serving.

Um, that really struck me as powerful. I, I'm just curious for everyone listening. Who's, you know, learning from you like I am right now. What, um, Yeah. Would, would you maybe elaborate that a little bit? Like to, to a lot of people listening here, here's where I'm coming from with this, it might, they might not make the connection of what you just said.

Like they might not understand, like why is accepting yourself with all your imperfections, all your struggles and all the good things about you too. Why is acceptance key for, you know, setting good boundaries and having healthy relationships? Of course. I mean, I can wake up, you know, tomorrow morning and I refer to him as the, uh, as my monster, the voice on my shoulder, the, uh, self doubt.

And first thing, when I wake up in the morning, that voice can say, you know what, Sal, you don't have this or Sal, you don't run as fast, or as far as you used to. And, you know, I listen to that voice or I give that monster some head space, you know, for. A minute. It doesn't even have to be a minute. And the next thing you know, the whole day can be.

I'm not good enough. What do I need? What do I need to achieve? How can I impress people? How can I be lights as opposed to this is who I am. I can have goals and work towards them, but in the present moment, I'm complete. Mm. And it's just, it's just a total different, it's just, it, it's a, it's a, it's a different mindset and I'm, and I've been struggling with it.

I'll be ruthlessly honest because you know, one week of work, that's a little tough. I. You know, maybe friends, you know, canceling plans, things start to happen. Maybe you get a parking ticket. And then, you know, all of a sudden you're like, you know what, all these things are going wrong. Right? It's like the, uh, the drop of ink that clouds up the whole fish tank.

And then, you know, it, it's just, it's a cycle. You don't, you don't get enough rest. You wake up in the morning and the cycle starts all over again. You know, I'm tired. And if I just have this one thing, then I'll feel better. Wow. As opposed to, you know, working on just really accepting, accepting what you have, um, knowing that we are complete and we are love for who we are.

It's hard, man. I, I, I, it is. I know, I don't, I know I don't have a, a great understanding of it because. I mean, no one, no one is inside my head or, you know, watching me from the curb and saying, oh, Sal just had, you know, this self doubt, you know, mm-hmm let me, let me pull him aside and give him a quick pep talk.

You know, you have to know, you have to know how much space you're giving to that monster throughout the day. And it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be this cynical voice. It's not, it's not extreme. It can be very subtle. Yeah. Wow. No, this is so good. You you're nailing on so many points. I think we all need to hear cuz I, I, you know, I deal with that too, where I think we all have these different versions of ourself within us.

Right. And we wanna think that we're just the best version of ourself. Right. Um, but. often we're tempted like that monster, like you said, tempts us to think that no, we're actually that lesser version of ourself. We're that worse version of ourself. But I, I think what you're saying, what I hear you saying is that the there's so much freedom in coming to the realization and acceptance to where even where you like, feel it in your bones.

It's like, you're both. You're the best version of yourself. And you're the worst version of yourself that that's all you. And if you stop trying to, you know, maybe shame that worst version of yourself and pretend that you're only that best version of yourself, um, at least what I've found in my life, there's so much peace.

There's more freedom I'm able to have, like you said, healthy relationships, I'm able to avoid bad habits and. Better habits, healthier habits and on and on and on. And so I, I think this can't be, it seems like it's such a subtle thing. Like, uh, it sounds kind of corny, honestly, when we talk about like accepting yourself to someone who maybe hasn't, you know, been around this sort of, um, Conversation before mm-hmm , but it's so, so key.

And, uh, again, it's something that, that I'm, uh, you know, trying to get better at too. And again, when I've noticed, when I do, when I just have this kind of kindness towards myself, when I just can say, okay, I am the way I am, I, I wanna improve and grow, but I'm not gonna shame myself and, you know, make myself feel horrible for.

You know, struggling in the ways that I have. Again, I'm always trying to improve and overcome my weaknesses, but, but there is that level of acceptance as like, Hey, I am the way I am here. I am right now, I will grow, but I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna grow by telling myself I'm so horrible. That's just gonna prevent me from growing.

Right. I think, I think some of the best mentors I've had throughout the course of my life would remind me, or encourage me to strive for the best, but know that. Accepting what I have and what I've accomplished and just who I am in the present moment would be the first step on that journey. So good. You made me think of a book.

I haven't read it. Uh, perhaps you have, I think the title was you're not enough and that's okay. And, uh, and I, I think something powerful about that, and that goes to the point that we're talking about right now, how, you know, we, we don't need to be perfect in order to be kind to ourselves to accept ourselves, to even live ourselves, so to speak.

Um, we, we can do that right now where we're at so good. I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about your relationships. So in your dating relationships, I'm just curious how you've perhaps struggled and especially struggled in relation to the breakdown of your family, of your parents' marriage.

Um, what, what issues have you seen there? Well, I would say that I probably put a very big emphasis on just being in a relationship and showing to the world. That I can do it, that I can make it work. And, uh, throughout, throughout my life, it's kind of looked, it's kind of looked different, you know, maybe, maybe one girlfriend was very pretty.

Maybe another girlfriend was at the top of her field. And I, I would say that I would say that most people, if not all, would want to be proud, you know, be having a partner that. That, um, adds, adds to their life. Right? Sure. But for me, it kind of, it kind of felt like it kind of felt like, I don't know, like a saving grace and I would say that even, even from my, uh, you know, when my parents, when they par, when they got separated, Maybe even before then, you know, I, I remember going on walks, maybe they had a fight or something like that.

And I would just kind of just kind of tune out in my, in my head and think, oh, well, one day I will I'll have my own family and everything will be fine. Mm. So definitely I definitely would identify as a hopeless, romantic, and I would say dating, dating now. It all, it all goes back to what we were talking about.

Maybe a couple minutes ago about. Accepting accepting myself and finding someone that is really going to add to my life. And if it's someone that I'm trying to rescue, it's probably gonna be a slippery slope. So it's about someone that someone that's gonna make my life better as opposed to making my life worse.

And it's, it's been, it's been a journey. I've been meeting a lot of wonderful people, a lot of interesting people. I've had a couple of knee jerk reactions throughout the years dating. So I know, you know, what I certainly want to avoid, but it's, it's definitely been a while since I've, since I, you know, could call someone my partner, my girlfriend, and, uh, I'm working on it, you know, definitely a work in progress.

Yeah, no, it, it sounds like you wanna partner, not a project. I think so often we fall into looking for a project. Um, like you mentioned, there's numerous reasons maybe for that, that, that makes sense. Do you want someone who's gonna be able to love you and not just. Have maybe a one way relationship. I know a lot of my relationships that even friendships that were turned unhealthy, um, seemed so one sided where I was like giving, giving, giving, but never like receiving, never kind of being loved in return, so to speak.

And not because my friends were evil or malicious, that's not what I'm saying, but just because of the dynamic of the relationship where I was maybe trying to help them or fix them or rescue them. And what ended up happening was. It just became unhealthy and then we got close and then I would pull away because I realized how unhealthy it would become.

And then that caused maybe even more hurt than the original hurt that I was trying to help them deal with. right. So just messy situation. But, um, that, that makes sense. What you're looking for now. And I, I totally get the struggle of, of actually finding it in terms of you being a hopeless romantic. I think that might just be due to the fact that you're Italian.

Because I can I can relate to that one. but no, no kidding. Kidding aside. I'm I, I totally get that. Uh, you know, you wanted something better and perhaps it feels out of reach, even if at one point in time you were thinking like, oh yeah, I'll I'll have a, a better family, a better marriage. Yeah. What were, um, yeah.

Could please, if you had anything to add to that, I'd love to hear. Yeah. It, it, you know, I don't know, I guess, I guess, uh, I don't really remember, you know, in health class or, you know, even in high school, any sort of talk about healthy relationships or, or, uh, you know, what is there to gain from being in a healthy marriage?

What is, what can life look like? Or what is. I guess what could be expected of, you know, a man or a woman in, in a marriage. And I think it would be better to kind of get that, get that in school, as opposed to, you know, flipping through a magazine and seeing pictures of, you know, a Playboy, you know, with girls under his shoulders or, you know, go into the movies and you see.

I don't know, American pie. And you, you think that's what college is gonna be like? Yeah. So, so I would say, you know, it's, it, it's hard being a hopeless romantic, and then maybe being exposed to some of the extreme situations. And not knowing, not knowing what that, I don't know. I don't want to make, I don't wanna say there's a middle ground between, uh, like monogamy and American pie.

uh, but it what I'm trying to say is there there's so much that we we're, there's so many questions that we're really just trying to figure out for ourselves and it, it does take a. Yeah, no, it's a great point. And I know I kind of went back and forth between this, these two extremes. And we've noticed this with a lot of people through this nonprofit, through this podcast, even alone, where on one hand, we just have such a hope for something so much better, almost for like a perfect ideal relationship and marriage.

And then in the opposite hand, we just have this complete doubt, uh, at. Part of ourselves. That's just like, that is not possible. That's not gonna happen. At least not for me. And I dealt with both of those and there's, you know, struggles that come along with each. Um, so, so I totally get what you're saying and even, yeah.

Understanding, seeing beautiful examples of good marriages and how it makes life better. That it's few and far between. I think that we, we see that you're absolutely right. And it's sad because. What I've experienced in marriage now is certainly, there are hard times. I don't wanna glamorize it. I think some people glamorize marriage way too much, but, um, what I've seen is, you know, if you work at it, There's good and bad that comes with it.

But if you work at it, the good does outweigh the bad and there's some such beautiful, you know, seasons and parts of marriage that, um, just make life really beautiful, really joyful brings so much happiness and freedom. And it's hard to explain that until. I, if someone would've went back in time, if you know, someone explained that to me, when I was like, I dunno, 15 or 18 even.

Um, I don't know if I would've been able to quite understand what they were talking about, but I think you're right. We do need to see those beautiful examples and really answer that question. Like what is to gain from a healthy marriage, right? Wanna shift gears to, uh, healing and, and coping. Uh, what were a few things, maybe two or three things that helped you cope in healthy ways and find some healing.

Sure. I would say exercise, uh, when I was younger, uh, I was a big runner and, uh, since I've mellowed out and I don't, I don't necessarily carry that same amount of anger. Um, I haven't been running as much as I would like to, but I mean, I could probably say running running really helped me out when times were difficult.

Music. Uh, I love electronic dance music. It just kind of, you know, it's just, it's just, I, it brings me to the special place. It's just very upbeat. Yeah. It's just, I don't know. I've always, I've always enjoyed EDM. Uh, I would probably say, uh, Aviche is one of my, one of my favorites and therapy. I mean, I'm pursuing, uh, social work.

I've been in therapy for many years. I've done group therapy. So just a desire to understand myself better. Mm-hmm , uh, to cultivate empathy, accept myself and, and work towards, you know, just a, a, a life full of purpose, a life worth, uh, living as. Uh, Marsha Linehan would call it the creator of D B T. Love it.

No, that's amazing. And I've found those, all those things helpful as well. And it's always kind of baffled me about music. Like why is music so helpful? And I think there's a lot to it. Two, two of the things we had some, uh, two, uh, married, couple, uh, husband and wife, uh, duo, who are artists? Come on the podcast.

I forget the, um, exact episode when they came on, but it was cool. We, but I asked them like, why, why is music so helpful in helping us like, not feel alone and helping us kind of deal with the pain in our lives. And there were like two things that they mentioned. One was that it helps us kind of put difficult experiences and emotions into words often.

Like certain songs can, can do that. And then two, it helps us not feel alone, cuz it's like, okay, there's at least this person who's singing the song, the person perhaps who wrote the song as well, who obviously have a deep understanding of this. So they probably have gone through this themselves. Um, so that's, uh, can helps us not feel alone as well, which I, I thought was.

Right, right. I would say for me, you know, if someone were to ask me, how do you feel right now? I would say, well, I don't know, but how about listening to this song? And you know, this, we could talk about it. Like this song means something to me. Uh, if you have a listen, we could talk about it. You could let me know how you feel.

Maybe you don't even like this song, but it could be, it could be have, it could be a conversation worth having. Yeah, no. So good. Yeah. That honestly still is a go-to coping mechanism for me. Like, just like you said, of listening to certain artists, certain music that, um, perhaps expresses in towards, and even lyric or not just lyrically, but even musically what I'm experiencing, what I'm feeling better than I could perhaps do on my own, which is really helpful.

So, so good. Lots of good tips, uh, in this whole interview from you. I do wanna ask. So now. You know, you've been working on yourself, trying to heal, especially as someone who's helping other people, you accurately know that you need to work on yourself first, which is awesome. There's sadly, a lot of people, at least that I've known who go into, um, the helping professions, whether it's medicine or, you know, psychology, and they maybe neglect working on their.

And so I think it's so powerful that you are someone who's going down that path and who's actively working on yourself. So the question is this, like, you're obviously still working on stuff we all are, but I'm curious, how is your life different? How is it better now that you've healed and you've grown some, I think I've just become more trusting of others.

The, the more transparent I am. And the more people I get to know, and, and I get to hear some stories and see where people have come from. And it just, it just always gives me, it always gives me a perspective, a time, a time that really helped me was when I was working as a preschool teacher's assistant, my mind just felt saturated with all of these master's level courses and assignments.

And I'm working towards this degree. Is it gonna make me happy? Is it. Be fulfilling. And then I'm seeing kids just playing and making new friends and things just seemed so simple and pure. And I was just like, wow, like this is, this was really, it was really helpful. Uh, cuz it gave me some perspective. Hmm.

So I think, I think the healing can come when you, when you're not expecting it. And I think it's also a grind. So, you know, being in therapy. Trying to just dig deeper and, and build upon my last sessions, spending the time to think about, uh, what I wanna work on and just, just be open about the therapeutic relationship itself.

It's kind of weird, you know, it's kind of weird sometimes to talk about. If I've had experiences where I was definitely attracted to the female therapist, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the conversation would've been like, but it probably, it would've been challenging for me to have said, Hey, like, you know, the past three sessions, I haven't really been, uh, able to dig deep, you know, and, and kind of talk about the, the vulnerable stuff, because I'm kind of attracted to you or whatever.

You know, and on the other end, too, like, guys can be guys can be trustworthy. So it's, you know, sometimes having a male therapist, I'm like, man, this guy, you know, maybe he doesn't give it about me, you know? So, but then you, you, you, you work on the relationship and you, you, you talk about it. And, uh, and that's, that's been a, that's been a growing point for me too.

Cause uh, quick story. I was reading this, uh, I was reading this, uh, relationship book. Uh, I don't remember the name of the author, but she, she had a lot of Western ideas when it came to dating and relationships and she probably, she's probably a relationship coach or therapist. And she she's told, she's told about some goo guru in India that has foolproof relationship advice, and that she has to make this trip to India and find this guru.

Hmm. So she makes all of the arrangements and she flies to India. She meets the guru. And, um, she leans in to, to hear the guru, give the relationship advice, and she's, she had to take off from work. She flies thousands of miles and the guru just whispers in her ear. Thank you. And this relationship expert is like, what do you mean?

Thank you. And the guru said, that's my, that's my advice. That's what you, that's what you would wanna say to your partner is thank. . And when I read that, I was like, wow, like, you know, that's, that's so simple, but you know, how come I don't do it? You know, how come I don't mm-hmm how come I don't say, you know, thank you to the people that I'm closest to for just being a part of my life or for talking to me, or for sending me that text message, you know, it's easier for me to.

Well, you know what, every time they come over, I treat them to dinner or whatever it is, or the drinks are on me, you know? Sure. And as opposed to, as opposed to starting with the, the thank you and just appreciating, appreciating them for, for the positive impact, I would say that. That the people in my close circle have on me.

Wow. So many good things. The one thing I wanted to go back to, in addition to what you just said was how guys can be trustworthy. I think a lot of us struggle with that, cuz for so many of us. Maybe our dads didn't live up to what we had hoped for live up to what they really should have been. And that can cause us to feel like, yeah, like men are in trustworthy know I've dealt with that too.

So yeah. Being around men like yourself, who, who are good and who are trustworthy, has been really healing and helpful for me too. Uh, about that skill of, uh, really opening up, I guess, uh, it, some people, especially, I think men fall into thinking that's like some sort of weakness to be. Maybe emotional or to talk from like the level of your heart, as opposed to just your mind.

Mm-hmm I grew up in a family where things weren't very emotional. Um, and so kind of expressing feelings wasn't necessarily a normal. And honestly, I had to learn. So like I had to learn how to do that. Like, it was actually a skill, it sounds maybe dumb to some people listening right now, but I literally had to learn like, how do I say something and not just such a cut and dry, like intellectual way, but how do I share what I'm feeling, share something from like the level of my heart.

And like, how do I do that? It literally was something I had to learn. And then as I did it more and more, it became more natural. But man doing that initially was so awkward it was just like, I, I, I didn't know how to do it. And uh, and I think that's something that if you're not there, those of you listening right now, if that's something you struggle with, like I get it.

Um, but I would challenge you there and try. You know, just like Sal saying here, just like the story of the relationship guru who went to, or, or Oxford who went to that guru in India, um, you know, opening up more and just sharing deeper parts of your heart, as opposed to keeping things on the surface or keeping things, just intellectual level, kind of from your head instead of from your heart.

I would say Joey, I think that's great. Um, I, you know, and it's also, you can, you can bond, uh, with people over that, that journey. So I came from a family where let's all be angry at the same thing. And, and maybe that's how we can, we can bond, right? Mm-hmm . But if you surround yourself with people that are supportive and emotionally intelligent and are flexible and are open minded and are looking for answers ultimately for, you know, on their journey.

It's like, Hey, like I'm on a journey. Hey, you're on a journey too. Like traveler recognize as traveler, you know? Yeah. We can be supportive towards one another. So it is, we don't have to do it all alone. Mm-hmm so good, man. This has been such a great interview. I did wanna ask if, uh, if, if you could sit down with your parents, like, let's say your parents were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

What would I want them to know? Hmm. I guess, you know, I guess. I know they've grown so much, uh, being apart from one another mm-hmm , but I think every, I would say every kid who has parents that are divorced wishes, that wishes that they could have made things work. So, yeah. You know, so maybe, maybe some, you know, Hey Sal, you know, we can't do that for you.

And we're really sorry. But yeah, there's always that there's always that why can't, why can't, you know, why can't mom and dad be together. Right. You know? Yeah. I think every, everyone needs, everyone needs, you know, two parents. Yeah. It's just, it's just that simple. Yeah. No it is. And that makes so much sense.

And I, I too have seen my parents grow on their own and in some ways their lives have become better, um, E even apart. And, uh, yeah, for me, my, my feeling, and I know my siblings feel similarly is like, why couldn't you guys just do that together? And, uh, and it is sad and I really wish that, you know, it didn't break apart the way it had.

Um, so, so now I'm right there with you. Um, really appreciate you opening up and sharing so much. If people wanna connect with you, how can they do that? We will, uh, link my email, I guess, to the podcast. That's cool. . Yeah, absolutely. That'll be great. So guys, we'll throw that in the show notes. If you wanna reach out to Sal, you can, um, email him and he'd be happy to, to hear from you and Sal.

I wanna give you the last word. Um, but before I do again, thank you so much for your vulnerability, uh, for just your articulateness. It's everything you've said has just been so good and so helpful. Um, and so while you're sharing your own story, I think there's so many lessons baked into this conversation, which a lot of people, thousands of people for years to come are gonna learn from you.

So thank you so much for being willing to come on for opening up and for sharing your great advice in, uh, in closing. Just what words of encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who feels broken? And who feels stuck in life, uh, because of their broken family, because of the breakdown of their parents' marriage, what encouragement and advice would you give to them?

I mean, it's, it's possible. It's possible right now. There's, you know, a teen sitting on the curb lost in thought, you know, his parents are fighting and he, or she asking themselves, you know, what the hell does this mean? Um, what's gonna happen. What's my life gonna look like all those, all those questions.

and, you know, I still, I still kinda have that self talk, uh, but it's a lot different now. So we're all at different stages, but there's so much that we have in common with the person that is, you know, like I said, sitting on the curb right now. Uh, so I think, you know, what I would want for everyone to, you know, take away from this is.

You know, Joey, I was, you know, telling you, Hey man, I was to do this interview and I needed, I needed more time. And you were like, you're gonna do just fine. Uh, it's really helpful to, to talk with someone, to get those thoughts out there and to just be a human being, you know, to understand that everyone wants to be happy.

And if I can share and be as real as I can be, and someone reaches out to me and. You know what I wanna, I wanna do an interview myself or, or even challenges me or, or offers any sort of criticism. I know that I'm open to it and it's, it's, it's just, I think it's, this is such a, this is such an area for, for growth and for clarity, uh, because maybe that kid on the curb.

Loss in chaos and he may, he, or she may feel like the clarity is never gonna come, but know that it will. So I am also still looking for, you know, for my answers and, and I hope that I can help. And, and I do hope that people can be of help to me. So, Joey, thank you so much for everything that you do for us,

a question for you to reflect. What would it take for you to accept yourself as you are? And to be clear, I'm not condoning apathy. I'm not condoning continuing bad habits, but like you heard us discuss being brutally honest and accepting yourself where you are in life is an essential step to heal and grow into the better person that you wanna be.

So what would it take for you to accept yourself as you are? And that's my challenge work on that next time you wanna beat yourself up for your struggles? Just say to yourself, this is where I'm at right now. And make sure to give yourself some grace, just like you would with a friend who was struggling.

If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. Further writing your story is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious.

They're healthier. And they're HAPPI. Additionally, sharing your story with someone else is healing on a neuro biological level as well. And it also gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling, because what we do is we take your story and then we put it on our blog in an anonymous format. So if you wanna share your story, here's how you do it.

Just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash story. The form will guide you in telling a, a short version of your story. It takes a little bit of time, but not long. And then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article like I mentioned. So if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com/story, or click the link in the show notes.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 68, and that includes sales email address. If you wanna get in touch with. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parent's divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#067: Breaking the Cycle of Dysfunction in Your Marriage | Pierre & Maria Lareau

If you’re from a broken family, becoming independent and breaking the cycle can be extremely attractive. It certainly was for my guests, a married couple where both spouses from a broken family.

They share what happened in their families, how it’s affected them, their marriage, and even their kids. We also discuss:

• Why one of their mentors encouraged them to begin counseling as a dating couple

• The questions their kids have about their divorced grandparents

• How our parents often compete for our loyalty

• Why beating a victim mentality is so freeing

• One thing that helped them deal with the dysfunction in their families

If you come from a broken family and you’re headed toward marriage, this episode is for you.

Tell us how Restored has helped you

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 44: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For a lot of us from broken families, especially those of us still living at home in the dysfunction, becoming independent and breaking the cycle can be extremely attractive. And that was absolutely true for my guests today, who happened to be a married couple where both spouses come from a broken family, they've actually been long time friends of mine.

I saw both of their parents' marriages and families fall apart. And each of them, their families and their siblings included were a big part of the motivation for this podcast and the ministry behind it. And so in this episode, they share what happened in their families, how it's affected them personally and affected their marriage and even their kids.

We also discuss why one of their mentors encouraged them to begin counseling as a dating couple, we talk about the questions their kids have asked about their divorced grandparents. We touched on how our parents often compete for our loyalty. We talk about why beating a victim mentality is so freeing, and then they mention one thing that has helped them deal with the dysfunction in their families.

If you come from a broken family and you're headed toward marriage at some point in your life, this episode is for you very practical and inspiring episode. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey. Pelli thanks so much for listening. This is episode 67. My guests today are peer and Maria Lubo. They've been happily married for almost nine years.

PI works in the concrete construction industry. Maria's a stay-at-home mom and a licensed cosmetologist together. They have four beautiful children. They homeschool, they volunteer at their church and additionally, they're expanding their property, learning how to farm and even become self-sufficient.

They enjoy helping others, camping game nights and learning about farming. Before we dive into the conversation, we talk a little bit about God and faith. They're Catholic Christians. And so that's gonna come up in the conversation if that's not your background, if you don't believe in God, we're really happy.

You're here. My challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. If you, even, if you take the God parts out, there's still so much good stuff in this episode. So listen with an open mind. I guarantee you're gonna benefit from it. Here's my conversation with my friends, pier and Maria

pure and Maria. Welcome to the show. Hi Joey. Hi. It's so good to have you guys. It's been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you for, for a while, so I'm glad we could finally do this. Um, it's always tough to kind of go back in time, cause I've known you guys such a long time to those dark times in our lives.

When things with our families, uh, were especially bad. But I think for everyone listening, it's so helpful. So let's go there. Um, tell me if you would, how old were you guys when your parents separated and divorced? You wanna go first? ladies first ladies first. Okay. I was 16 when my parents separated and filed for divorce and I believe I was 18 when their divorce was finally finalized.

I'm the oldest of four kids. And so at the time the youngest was 11. Yeah, I'm doing my math. Right. all right. The youngest child was 11. and I was the oldest at 16. Yeah. And, uh, I think I was roughly, for me, it's hard to pinpoint, you know, it, it was, it was more of a gradual your parents separated and got back together.

Couple of times. It was, yeah, there was a couple, quite a few times. It was, it was in the late, my late teen years. So it was probably six, you know, 16. And then 17 is when it got really serious. And then I think it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 until it was more finalized. Um, and I also am the oldest of I'm the oldest of five.

And so my younger, my youngest sibling was, oh, gosh, I don't know, 12, 12 years younger than me. So yeah, she was little 4, 5, 6, 6, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Six, six. Yeah. So yeah, no, that makes sense. And you guys are in a particularly difficult world, which I want to get into being the oldest. There's so much that you're, threated into.

I sell that with my other brother as well, just taking over so much responsibility. Like you really shouldn't have to take over just because there's this void when, when mom and dad go separate ways. So, uh, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, if you would share to whatever level you're comfortable, what would happened?

You know, I think that for myself, I, I think that I, I can look back on the stories I've heard for my parents' marriage and like what I witnessed fr from a small age up until the point where they did separate that there were a lot of bad habits established in their marriage and even in their dating relationship before marriage.

And I, I remember my parents fighting a lot growing up. Wasn't uncommon. For them to be, you know, tucked away in dad's office, you know, having a screaming match. But I think what really brought it out was when I became a teenager, you know, a teenager, especially being, um, in high school, they want a little more independence.

They wanna do this, they wanna do that. And my dad was not comfortable with us doing a lot of different things or us spending a lot of time doing different things, um, that my mom wanted us to do. And that controlling aspect really manifested itself. And it wasn't something that I even think, I don't think she realized how bad and how controlling he was until he really saw it being manifested in her children.

Or she really saw it being manifested in her children like that. He's trying to control everything that they do. Him being controlling, kind of opened her eyes. Into what was going on in her marriage. What do you think for yourself? For me? I, I think it was a, it was more of a, it wasn't apparent at the time when it was happening to me and more thinking of it now though, I think, I think it was more of a slow, oh, what's the word?

Degradation, degradation degradation of, um, you know, where, where it was just because my mom, my mom was Catholic or is Catholic, I should say. And my dad is, or was loosely Lutheran. Yeah. Lutheran is what it was. Okay. You know, so to start, you know, to start, there was, there was a serious moral difference and religious difference, religious difference, I should say more so, um, that makes sense, you know, and, and it was kind of two worlds trying to work together.

And, and it was a lot of, of my dad not being there cuz he owns his own owns his own company, runs his own construction company, you know, which in itself is a lot of work. Yeah. But then, you know, it dive him diving into that. And then, you know, my mom trying to step in and, and find the, or fill, fill both the roles bearing himself in his work and, and not being the Catholic role model she wanted you to have.

Yeah. Yeah. And because it was, it was almost, oh, I don't wanna say ironic, but he finally went through R C I a became Catholic, I think in 2006. I remember that. Yeah. And, and then, and then a year later, You know, it was, it was, he was, it just exploded and everything hit the plan, you know, so it was almost like there was an appeasement process and then it was just like, you know what, forget this.

And then everything exploded. And, and then things got worse. There was, there was some cheating on his part and, and it just, it kind of got, I don't know, just, it went from there, you know, and got worse and worse slowly. I think your mom had a little in her mind that if he became Catholic and they solved this religious difference, that that would solve their marital issues.

I don't know if it would solve it, but it, she definitely, she obviously as one spouse would want another spouse to become, you know, in this case, you know, Catholic wants their spouse to be Catholic mm-hmm , you know, so I think, I think there was, there was a great wants. and if not a little bit of a pushiness mm-hmm for that to happen or a, uh, expectation that that would happen mm-hmm and then it was, you know, and then I think my dad finally caved and then stuck through it for about a year and instead, forget this and then just, you know, that was about it.

So, okay. That was kind of, that's kind of the meat of the story as, as, as I remember it, I, I suppose. Yeah. And I know for a lot of us, the memory can always be a little bit like spotty and, and there's reasons for that. But I remember both of your stories cuz I was, you know, not intimately involved, but we were all friends.

Yeah. And PI I remember years in particular cuz we were definitely closer than you and I Maria. And um, I remember your dad becoming Catholic and that was like so good. And. I was, yeah. Just thinking like, wow, this is amazing. Your family seemed like they were, you were in a really good spot. You never know what's under the surface though from the outside, like, right.

But, but, um, and then all of a sudden, like, yeah, almost in the blink of an eye, it was like, oh, and now everything's falling apart. And the crazy thing was, there were a lot of families who we knew at the time who were going through some similar, maybe it wasn't like at the exact same time, but within years of each other, you know, it seemed like marriages were just falling apart.

Um, and then the kids obviously had to deal with the, the fallout, which we know intimately and especially looking at our siblings and seeing how they deal with it. It's it's tragic. So, yeah, definitely. That's interesting how each sibling kind of deals with it different. That's how I, I see it. Like my, my four sibling or me and my three siblings.

We have all dealt with it so differently. I see it with his siblings. Like not, not, not one reaction is. The same as the other and where you are in the family line above oldest or middle child, or second to youngest or youngest definitely seems to like play a little bit of a part in it. Yeah. If you could summarize that quickly, what would you say?

And I know it varies by person, like you said, but I'm just curious, like what have you seen the difference in both of your siblings handling the breakdown, your families? Oh gosh. just quickly just in like 30 seconds

novels on this, but yeah. Yeah. and you don't need to divulge, you know, big things about their siblings, but I'm just curious. Cause I think, yeah, I think it's, I think it's more. The higher in the, in the sibling hierarchy, you are, I think there's more responsibility put on you and the lower you are. There's more mooching off both parents.

Well, I wasn't gonna say that ness is the, the more the parents are gonna try and spoil you to try and get you to like them. But the higher you are in the hierarchy, the more you are going to, the more the parents are gonna want you to fulfill the other parent's role. Wow. I, I think that, or the missing parents' role, I should say, depending on how young the child is, I don't know.

What I've kind of noticed is in some ways, Some children have this idea of, okay, well what, what can mom give me? And, and what can dad give me? And who's gonna give me what, and what can I get? Who can I get the most from? I mean, that, that comes from just a normal functioning family.

functioning family should have the United front. The parents. Yes. Yes. But they still, that doesn't doesn't mean they're not gonna try. They might try. They might try. But in this situation they can do, dad will let me do this, but mom won't. So I'll do this at dad's or mom will give me this, but dad would never.

So I'll ask mom for that. Mm-hmm yeah. Or it's exponentially worse. And I'd agree with that. Like the higher you are and the hierarchy, the more sort of responsibility you have. I feel like for myself being the oldest, I, I wouldn't say I was leading my siblings in any way, but. They did look to me like, what are you gonna do about this?

And my mom definitely looked to me like, what should I do next? And we both were really lucky when we entered our relationship, that we had a really awesome priest recommend that we both see a counselor mm-hmm independently, independently. Yeah. And not together because we didn't, he, he saw both of our divorced family situations and he was like, you do not wanna bring these bad habits into your relationship and you do need to, and you do wanna deal with this before getting into a marriage.

And while you're discerning marriage as a vocation or, and religious life as a vocation mm-hmm and he recommended, we see the same counselor, but separately. So we did, he saw the counselor and I saw the counselor separately. And then when we did go. On to get engaged, we would go and he would have a half session with the counselor and I would have a half session with the counselor.

And then we would have, we want a whole session together as a couple on the, on the same day, we'd go together. He'd be by himself for half hour. I'd be by myself for half an hour and then we'd have an hour together and then we'd get lunch. It was like a weird date. Yeah. like a depressing day. No, but super helpful.

Wow. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Yeah. It was really good. And it definitely helped us recognize pitfalls and red flags and bad habits as they would pop up. And absolutely. Um, and it would help us work through that or even just like, how do we navigate being engaged with these divorced parents?

Okay. Now, how do we navigate being married with these divorced parents and how do we navigate. Having kids and throwing parties and they're do we invite both of them there and how do we navigate holidays and set boundaries and yeah. Yeah. It was something totally necessary. Especially also for us being married young, we were like, what are we doing?

yeah. Yes. Cause those things are hard to do in normal parent situations, setting boundaries and figuring out those things, but let alone, okay. Now we have our kids four. Now we have, and there's four grandparents, four independent to like rotate. Um, yeah, we did, we did one Easter. We did four Easters in, in the same day and I think I wanted to die.

Yeah. We were like, we're never, ever doing this again. Some things unfortunately are just trial and error, like yeah, yeah. Learning the hard. No, that's so good. Peter. I remember you advising that. We've put that in some of our content. Um, and I mentioned you saying that don't do it all in one day. good.

Practical credit. The worst thing possibly do, and I can attest to that. Cause it it's it's and that's, that's the big thing that was, I think that's a big thing and we still struggle a little bit with that is setting boundaries, you know, with, with everything that, you know, trying to say, okay, this is how it is.

And now our parents, you know, the parents are divorced, they've all got an alled. So technically they're free to see other people date and see other people and it's become more of, uh, attention because, because it's okay. My dad's, you know, dating a girl and oh, now kid's birthday who invite dad? And can he bring his, he bring his girlfriend, you know, so it's, it's.

It's a lot more tension in setting boundaries and it, and it, you know, kind of works all different ways and yeah, it never ends unfortu. No, it doesn't, it, it sucks, but it never ends, but it does get better. That's for sure. It's become a lot easier to make these decisions, but, but you had to work through all that.

And I think that's good for any parents listening right now. You know, we're not hitting on our parents, but I've seen the same thing in my life, too. Those normal situations that can be challenging. And over themselves, like you guys said become exponentially more difficult because there's all these people to please.

And then you have to deal with whose side, you know, you might be appear to be, um, on, and there's just so much messiness. Then you add yeah. Another partner into the situation like boyfriend, girlfriend, it just so such a difficult situation. So many parents listening who may be considering getting a divorce.

I think this conversation I hope is really insightful in saying not only how it will maybe affect your kids in the short term immediately following the separation divorce, but for years to come, this doesn't end. And that's the, your grand babies. Yeah. That's, that's something we've luckily been able is.

Sorry not to cut you off. Sorry, go. . No, you're good. But we've luckily narrow, narrowly avoided the conversation. Cause our oldest, our oldest is seven he's he's gonna turn eight. Yes, little baby, but we've narrowly avoided, you know, the, the conversation. Why does grandpa live at one house? Why does grandma live at the other house?

You know? Right. Actually, no, that's been a huge thing for us having, so we have four children, um, ages eight to one years. Three boys. And one girl, the girl is six years old and the boy is almost eight, a four year old boy and a one year old boy. But anyway, one thing that we have not really used the word divorce with them, but it's just been so crazy for us to see them and their perception of this because they know all of our parents in some sort of context, they're very close with their grandmas.

They know his dad really well. I'm estranged from my dad. So they know who he is. They've seen him, but they don't really have a relationship with him. But anyway, they, they know that these grandparents don't all live together. And so at one point maybe a year ago, half a year ago, we were sitting at dinner.

Oh yeah. And all of a sudden, our six year old daughter just goes, why does Papa referring to his dad? Why does he live in this house? And Grammy lives in that house? Mm. Yeah. And we just kinda looked at each other like, oh, okay. We knew this conversation. Why this came outta the blue, what did we say?

Completely out of the blue. Yeah. And without even skipping a beat, our oldest boy chimes in and he goes, oh, their kids are grown up now. So they, so one of them lives in this house and the other one lives in a different house. since their kids are grown up. Wow. And he just assumed like it's. Yeah. Right.

Okay. This is normal. When you're, when your kids grow up, you don't live together anymore. That was his like perception. His reality of the situation. Wow. Our six year old daughter, she's just like, oh, well then they aren't married. And he's like, no, they are married. They just live in different houses. Cuz their kids are grown.

And we had to like stop him and just be like, whoa, whoa, okay. Like, we want you to know that is not normal moms and dads don't live in separate houses once their kids are grown up. That is not a normal thing. That's not the ideal. Yeah. And, and that's not gonna happen with us. Mm-hmm , that would becoming the normal, but it is not ideal that like, that shouldn't be normal for portraying to them.

And that to try to make them feel secure, like this happened to your grandparents, but this is not gonna happen to your parents. Like, we don't want them to be scared that this is like their future. Yeah. Cuz that's, that's that's the hard part is how do you, how do you tell your kids? Okay, this happened.

Here's your, your grandparents. They got to love. Do you love and you admire. Yes. And. And they, they, they got married, they had children and then they, all of a sudden stopped loving each other or they stopped being married. Right. And they stopped being married. That's how, that's how the child was gonna look at it.

Right. Okay. They must not love each other anymore. They must was like, yeah. Yeah. And then they, so they separated and then they, then the kid's gonna sit there and be like, well, what happens if mom and dad separate and leave and or they stop, they just stop loving each other. Yeah. And then what happens, child mind is so simple, you know?

And then they go, well, what happens if mom stops loving me? Which is the same thing as a child's divorce is, I mean, a grandchild of divorce is the same, almost the same thought process. Yeah. Oh grandma and grandpa don't love each other. Why, what does that mean? That mom's gonna love me anymore. Mm. You know, which is a great issue that, that.

People children of divorce go through. Yeah. And so, so it's, it's to try and, and tell them, no, you know, first off we love grandma. We love grandpa, but their actions were not ideal and that's not the way it's supposed to. That's the way that God ordered it. Yes. It's not the way that God ordered it and that you're supposed to stay together and that we, and reassure them that that's not gonna happen to them.

That we, as their parents is not gonna happen to them. Yeah. And nor should it wow. In the symbols of terms. Yeah. Because yeah, this is, this is one thing, you know, I heard a long time ago is that, you know, when, when talking to a child with either divorce or, or even, you know, And where do babies come from or whatever mm-hmm is to literally try and give the child the least amount of information on, on to stats by their, their thirst, for the knowledge yes.

On these grand huge complex issues. We heard this on another podcast, actually domestic family parenting podcast. Yes. Put a plugin for them, cuz that is, that is a fabulous podcast. Yeah. Second to yours, obviously. no, Michael, they actually came on this podcast a while. Did they? I don't remember the episode number offhand, but uh, yeah, no, they're great.

Oh, I'm gonna look podcast number now. That's yeah. So, but yeah, they, you know, it was, it was to give them, give the child the simplest terms to satisfy their, satisfy their curiosity and, and, and that's pretty much what we ended up doing. And it was just trying to break it down. The simplest of terms and be like, look, this is, this is, this is what's right.

That is what's wrong. Mm-hmm and, and that's all you can really do because they can't understand complex situations. Right? Like that. No, I admire you guys for handling that. And Marie, you mentioned it, uh, child's thinking isn't black and white and it's so difficult to explain the nuances of a situation like that.

Mm-hmm in a way, I think kids think, see things more clearly than we do, and yeah. But what, what a difficult way, like what a difficult conversation to have that you weren't even prepared for, just to finish that this off for people listening, especially who might be, uh, wanting to get married one day or engaged or married, newly married and soon becoming parents, or maybe new parents wherever they're at in that, uh, whole timeline.

I'm just curious, how would you maybe handle that conversation a little bit differently? Um, was there anything that you maybe wish you would've said looking back at it now? Cuz I know hindsight's 2020 always. Um, I think you guys sounded really well by the way, but I just, like, that's a tough conversation to have.

I probably, I probably would've prepared for it a little better. Yeah. Which is would've we, we have discussed, oh my one day, we're gonna have to talk to about this, like dreading that day. Like that was kind of the extent of the conversation. Yeah. So maybe have an idea in mind and don't wing it like we did, but we did give them as little information as possible.

Just saying like, we want you to know this is not the way it normally will be. This is not how it will be with us. Uh, they were married, they are not married anymore. Then there was a lot of questions of like, how do you get unmarried? And we were like, well, in the simplest of terms, we kind of told them being Catholic and what we believe on as marriage, as a sacrament, just that they did not know.

Their catechism and their faith enough to the extent that their marriage was not valid and they are no longer married and they were not married completely in God's eyes. And that just not even another question, that was it. They're like, okay. Yeah. And back to talking about squirrels outside, like that was it like onto the next thing um, like didn't skip a beat and every, so often as something comes up, we just kind of give them as little nuggets of information, tiniest, tiniest amounts of information as possible.

I, I think it only came up maybe once after that. And then it just kinda, it just kind of set. They really don't. They don't really, we emphasize. They are not, not living in the same house because they're adult children are adults. Like their children have grown up. We, when you guys grow up, your mom and dad will still live in the same house.

Yeah. I think, I think, I think that's the biggest thing is that you can, if you can portray anything, make them feel safe, about's re reassurance their environment. Yeah. You know, because you wanna make sure that they know that this is, this is a family that is gonna stick together forever and it's worth being a part of yeah.

No matter what. Mm-hmm mm-hmm one thing I've noticed with Lucy is she gets so happy when she physically sees bridge. And I together just like when we're like getting each other a hug and, and you probably notice that with your kids too, it's so beautiful. Right. And I think that's ultimately what kids want is we just want our parents to be together.

Obviously we don't want all the fighting intention and all that stuff, but if we can snap our fingers and get what we want, we want our families to be whole, we'd want 'em to be together. Right. And I know, I know my siblings and I. Wanted that so much. So I think it's so beautiful that you reassured them that, yeah, mommy and daddy, we're not going anywhere.

We're not gonna be like grandma and grandpa. And, um, this is different and that, you know, I'm sure that's still hard for a kid to wrap their head around perhaps. But, um, but I think you, you guys, it sounds like you're doing all the right things. So this is really good advice. We obviously haven't had that conversation with Lucy yet.

Um but, uh, at some, at some point of will have I pray, you have many years before you have to have a conversation. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It's it's not an easy one. And man, the, I know a lot of people just talking to someone this weekend and they were saying, I think their dad in particular has been married like six times.

It's like, boy, how, how do you explain that one? You know? So we won't go down that rabbit hole, but, um, I wanna shift gears a little bit to absolutely. So just the way in which you guys were affected, you've already mentioned a lot, but anything else that you would add in terms of how both of you were personally affected?

Um, and then the next stop is gonna be your relationship, but start personally, like, how were you affected by all of this? In addition to what you've already mentioned? I think I felt the sense that I had to be independent and I had to figure out a little more of how I was gonna offend for myself. And I don't know if you Joey have noticed this being with older kids, more like I was talking about younger kids trying to mooch off their parents.

Like, what can I get from this one? What can I get from that one? I felt, uh, this sense of, I don't want help from either of these people or as little help as possible that I can manage. Um, what can I do to get myself out of the situation? And I. Was looking at, okay, what do I want for a career? What do I want, how can I go to college?

And how can I not rely on them financially to do this? And so that's actually how I end up getting my cosmetology license, because I was like, I wanna go away to college and I wanna have a career and get away from these people and not be financially reliant on them. And I don't wanna be financially reliant on them for college either.

So how, what can I do to make more money to pay for college? And that's why I went to cosmetology school so that I could make more money to pay for college. Yeah. And it turns out that it paid off because in 2020, our kids had good haircuts as opposed to every other home home haircut. and you got good haircuts too.

I did too. I got good haircuts too. I'm jealous. So I think like some people have the fight or flight response and. My response was, I'm gonna fight for myself to not ever be in this situation again. And I remember just personally praying in my personal prayer life, a lot of prayer of God, I've dealt with this as a child and as an adolescent, and it's so miserable and it's so awful.

And I, I don't envy my parents and this terrible pain and suffering and hell that they're going through. And please spare me of this as an adult. I lived it as a child and I don't wanna deal with it as an adult. And so it was like a, it was a combination of fight and flight. It was a fight for me, myself.

I'm going to not ever be in this situation personally. Uh, and I'm gonna pray and do everything in my physical power. And I also wanna get away from this situation and not be stuck in this situation. Whereas like, do I, did I wanna help my mom? Did I wanna help my dad? Did I wanna help my siblings? Yes. Did I wanna try to maintain a relationship with them?

Yes, but I didn't wanna be dependent on that. And if things went south or sour, I wanted to have an out. It feels like for survival, doesn't Maria. And we've seen that as a trend too. It's like, we typically have this fierce independence as people who come from broken families and perhaps it veers more towards the older ones, but I've seen it in younger ones too, but we just, for sure, we don't wanna rely on anyone.

And that makes relationships really difficult, which we'll get to in the second here. But I, uh, I certainly still battle with this, to this day in my own marriage and, you know, definitely have grown a lot and made a lot of ground, but that's still kind of my default too, because I think so often what happens and we've said this before in this podcast, but, uh, when our families fall apart, we feel like we have nothing to fall back on.

And so we kind of take on this attitude like, well, no, one's got my back, so I better have my own back. I better just like figure life out. And if I don't, then that's not even an option. Like if I don't, there's nothing for me. And, uh, and so I totally totally get what you're coming, where you're coming from.

Right. Yeah, for sure. And I. . And that was me as a teenager and, you know, going on an older teenager, like getting towards the end of high school and getting towards college. So it's hard for me to think about, okay, what about my brother? Who was 11 mm-hmm you don't really have that option. You can't think of how am I gonna get myself out of the situation?

No, you're 11 years old. Like you're stuck in it. You haven't even made it through high school. You haven't. So, or his younger sister who is six years old. Mm-hmm like, now she's just gonna grow up with this as her normal. Yeah. So in some sense, I considered myself a little bit lucky, like, well, at least I'm older than them.

At least I don't have to go on, but you know, visitation, as long as they do the ability to leave situ the ability to leave the ability to drive well, the physical license to drive a car, whether or not I had a car available to me is a different story, but. Yeah, that pretty much. Yeah, it is a survival. I've kind of realizing how closely our stories are.

Um, at this very moment, but yours was like, I'm just not gonna be around. I, that was, I mean, that was mine. I, I, your coping mechanism, sort of my coping mechanism, you could almost say, I mean, it was cuz I think it was about, I was 17 and it was, there was a big dependence on me to step up and take care of my siblings.

And, and I kind of, I mean, I can't say I've always been the nicest to them, but as an older brother who is, um, but , but I mean, you know, I, you know, when it, when it really, when it really got Harry and the par, you know, with my parents, There was, there was an expectation from, from my parents to step up and more than just being an older brother to almost being a parent, to try and take care of them, like my siblings.

And then, and then I was, it was almost as if I was this, they kind of treated me as this as a friend. They almost tried to, or, or appear, appear where they would. Oh, Hey, you know, your dad's doing this or, oh, your mom's doing this. Or, you know, they really, they, there was a, they were trying to pit me against the other one, you know, which happens.

And I know that happened in your parents a lot too. Is wait, can I just interject to this space? Absolutely. Yes. That in our experience of parents trying to talk negatively about each other to us, That's happened to me. It's happened to him. It probably is something that's fairly normal. I would assume mm-hmm yeah.

The only way that changes is if you put up a boundary. Well, yeah, I was getting there. Oh, I was getting, let me building up to that. The boundary. Oh yeah. Um, you know, and, but my boundary was, I was just, I, I literally, I, I think I was 17 and I just exploded and I was like, I'm done, I'm gone. I don't last hear about this.

And, and you probably remember this, Joey, I pretty much lived up at your house and, and a couple of our other friends for almost six months. I left every weekend. I was gone. Mm-hmm fr I didn't, I did not live at my house on the weekends. I bounced houses. I hung out with friends at every waking moment I possibly can and many sleeping moments.

it's just like, you know, go, go stay somewhere else because the dysfunction was more than I wanted in my life. And so my, you know, COVID mechanism was leave and, and I told him, and, and I still have to, to this day kind of reinforce that boundary, like, look, I, I don't want to hear what you have to say about the other person.

I don't care. Yeah. It doesn't, it's not my, that is not my responsibility. That is not my, that's not my, you know, that's, that's not for me to hear that's even if it's true, it's actually like, even if what the one parent is saying about the other is true, it just leaves such a bad taste in your mouth. I don't wanna hear this.

I don't wanna be dragged down this road. Like don't, don't bring it up. Mm-hmm like, and. And now that you're gonna defend one of the parents when they did something wrong, but it almost gives you this. Like, I don't wanna agree with you even though you're right. Just because this is annoying and this is not fair to me as the child.

You no, it's not to vent it to. And that's what it is. It's, it's not fair to the children, you know, divorce is, is mostly not fair to the children hundred percent and, and it's, it, it, it puts such a strain and it just, it makes me wanna rebel. Like, I wanna just disagree with them just because I know. Right.

Yeah. And it it's makes sense. Yeah. You know, so the, you know, it's, it's, it's too much to pit them against each other because it's not about cuz that's, that's so often I, I I've seen with, I, I think, I think when I, when my family was going through it, I think I knew maybe five or six other families that were going through it at the time.

Yeah, and that's kind of, it was all very similar. And even still, now I talk to other people that, that are either going through a divorce or things like that. And, and so often it's, it's when children are involved, it's, who's the better parent. Mm-hmm , I'm the better parent. No, I'm the better parent and they go back and forth and, oh, I'm gonna give you more.

And I'm gonna, you know, when your mom does this or your dad does that or whatever, it is a little like background, uh, neither of our parents divorces were quote, unquote amicable. If there is such a thing, I know some people are like, oh my parents, they come to parties together and they hang out and they talk and they're like friends now.

Oh no, it's ours are not amicable at all. They can barely be in the same room. Yeah. Far away from each other in the same room. And it's, and it's been a long time, 10, 11, 12, It's been almost 15 years. 13, four. Yeah. It's been, oh my gosh. Wow. you know, so that makes so much sense. And PI, I remember you going through all that and all of us, our whole friend group was worried about, we were, uh, we were worried about you we'd talk about like the situation we were going through.

We saw how it was affecting you. And we were at a point, um, cause my parents was separate when I was 11 and they got back together and then later they divorced. And so, you know, I, I had that reference point, at least. So I knew like, yeah, this really stink this a horrible thing to go through. But yeah, we saw that and we, we were, you know, we're trying to figure out like how, how do we help?

How do we help? And it's such a difficult spot to be in for, for you. Uh, you know, and it makes sense that you kind of, your default was an escape, uh, because it's just too much to bear at times. And Maria, your interaction makes so much sense to me as well. And going back to what you said about. Parents divulging information that we don't need to know.

And some attempt to make us think less of the other parent, that's typically what I've seen happens. And the young people I've talked to, that's typically what goes about, like we, in a workshop, recent workshop we did at Ave Maria university, we were talking about this very topic, how, yeah. There were situations where some of these students, parents were just divulging really inappropriate details about the other parents.

Oh, for sure. And even the marriage that like, they never wanted to know which greatly altered their perspective, not only their one parent, but the other parent as well, and even the marriage altogether. So it can be so, so damaging to just divulge that information. So any parents listening, again, going back to that, like, it does more harm than good.

And if there are situations where you need. Say some sort of truth because maybe things are being twisted so much by the other parent, there has to be like a mature, calm way to do that without getting pulled into this battle, this competition, to be better, like you said, than the other parent. And so, you know, definitely a lot there to talk about you guys hit on so many great points.

I wanna go to your relationship, your marriage, cuz we don't have forever to talk in this episode. how, how, how did you see it particularly play out in the relationship between the two of you? You mentioned that you guys went to counseling, which is amazing way ahead of almost every couple that I've ever heard of.

and so, yeah, I'm just curious, like how did you see this affect your dating relationships and now your own. I mean there's, I mean, don't get me wrong. We're not perfect as much as I would love to believe that. Wait, really? I , I D maybe we shouldn't be doing this podcast episode. This is a condition of the episode that you're perfect.

And you never struggle. Darn. All right. We're gonna have to rethink this, right. Edit that out. Edit that out. Yeah,

no, but I mean, even now, I mean, even being 10, 15 years down the road, I still, you know, I, I still notice things that, that are results of my parents' divorce or, or, or dysfunctional things that even, not even the divorce, just dysfunctional things that my parents did, that I, you know, habits that you pick up or things that you do.

Yeah. Family habits, you know, family habits, you know? Yeah. And. so it's it's but how has it affected us? How has it affected us? I mean, it, it really just, you have to be conscious of it always mm-hmm and you know, a big thing that we have that we've, we've fought about a lot is that, you know, a lot of times, uh, you know, I'll be a jerk and for whatever reason, and then she'll be angry at me for being a jerk.

And so she'll be a jerk back at me. And then we'll both be a jerk it's jerk for tat. Yeah. It's a little tip for tat and start getting into this fighting. And the thing to always remember is, and I think I just said this the other day, I was like, wait, stop, rewind. We love each other. you know, mm-hmm and, and to always go back and remember that we love each other and we're not, you know, anything we do is.

Out of spite, which is what we've seen so much over our lives is that, is that our parents were spiteful at each other. Well, also think that one thing that we personally have had to work on is our communication. Yeah. Being, we both communicate a lot, but sometimes not in the most effective way or not in the way that the other person understands what we're trying to convey.

Or, and I think that we didn't see healthy communication happen. No, we weren't witness to that at all. So the counseling really stad off a lot of potential hazards, so to speak, like any potential bad habits. Because we had this counseling session when we were dating. So we saved off a ton of bad habits when we were dating, we saved off a lot of bad habits being engaged and even being married.

I think we went for the first, like four or five years of our marriage as well. Yeah. We went once a month. Yeah. For about four or five years. Yeah. Into our marriage. And so a total of like seven to eight years of counseling. And finally, she just looked at us and said, go home. yeah, that's beautiful. She's like, I've done all I can.

Yeah. Like when you're not fighting about like, who did, what chore, like then, you know, when you have something more concrete, like come back that's amazing. And not that we're perfect, like you said, but it really, it was finding a good counselor doing the, the footwork in your relationship before even marriage.

And that's huge. Yeah. And discerning, you know, this person, this partner, and if they're right for you and you know, are they gonna really be there for you through sick and thin and yeah. Cause, cause once you get married, you're, you're kind of, I mean, you're really, you're stuck with, you're not kind of stuck.

You are stuck. Well, you're stuck with, well, yeah. I, I, sorry man. Everyone who's not married just really wants to get married right now. And I'm just kidding. well, I mean it is though, but you know, so if, if, but you wanna be good, stuck, like stuck, right? Like where you're stuck. Exactly. This is where I'm going, you know?

So it's, it's, you know, so you wanna figure out you wanna iron out the big wrinkles before, you know, before you can, you know, before you settle down and you get married because cuz if, if you find out. Three years into your marriage. Oh my gosh. There's this huge issue that, oh, he's just this way. And he is never gonna change.

Mm-hmm you wanna find that out while he is dating while you're dating, so you can just walk away with a lot less baggage. Yeah. You know, and, and, and counseling is, I mean, I think every single person in this world should go to counseling with a single person, every single person, we're all nuts. but I, you know, , but at least, you know, at least, you know, going as a couple with an open mind and to find a counselor that pushes you.

Because there's, I I've been to a, a few different ones, you know, that was part of the divorce and all that fun stuff was, oh, go to this counselor, go to that counselor. And there's counselors out there. That'll just tell you what you want to hear or yeah. You know, and then we walk away and you're like, I'm, I'm I feel great.

You know, because I, I, he told me everything and I'm in right. And blah, blah, blah. You know, so to find a counselor that, that pushes you to think, well, what, what could you do? That's better. Even, even, you know, maybe you're no one, no one is a hundred percent in the right. You know, unless you're Jesus Christ.

I mean, that's, that's pretty much it, everybody has, you know, or, or some great Saint or something. But I most average people, especially today, mm-hmm are, have some sort of selfish, ulterior motive, I think. And. and me included. And I think that, I think that, you know, unless you're viewing that and trying to understand, well, okay, what am I trying to get out of this and why, and how can I do this to be more selfless, you know, ESP, when it comes to relationships, you know, anything really, but with relationships to, to, to look at it as, as how can I be more of a selfless person and give myself to my spouse or to my, you know, to my boyfriend or to my significant other, that that would allow me to grow in love for them and in return and holiness and holiness and in return that they, they will see that and, and love me more.

I mean, you know, to find, to find some, a counselor, that'll push you to do something like that is really, I. You know, or, or even a, a spiritual director or, or a, uh, accountability account, not so much a mentor, a mentor. Thank you. Yeah. A mentor, you know, someone to push you further because yeah. You know, let's face it.

We can only be pushed further than we think we are. Yeah. Yeah. And we can always grow more. There, there is no, there is no cap on how much we can grow as a human. Yeah, no, I'm a big believer in that. I, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing here right now, if, if it wasn't and yeah, I, you know, you guys brought up so many good points and a lot of great advice and what you just said.

Yeah. And I, I know just bridge and I, you know, conflict learning to handle conflict, like you said, uh, when our marriage has been especially difficult because, uh, you know, I didn't see that growing up handled well. And, uh, in fact, I saw it handled very horribly. And so that was the example and I was clueless on how to do it the right way, picked up some things along the way that helped, but in such an emotional relationship, which a marriage is like your emotions run high, um, and hot.

Um, it can be really difficult to have that self mastery in the midst of those difficult situations to say the right thing and not hurt the other person, which I mess up. And so. So we've had to learn and, and counseling marriage counseling has been really helpful for us. And, uh, you know, I, one of a few of the tendencies that I've seen in myself, which I'm curious if you guys can relate is, um, just this almost need to defend myself and just almost this need to kind of going back to what we were saying before about.

Feeling so independent or being fiercely independent, feeling the need to just take care of ourselves. Like no one will take care of us. No one will be there for us. Like we just have to do it ourselves. It can very much so feel like survival in the midst of even a, a marriage fight. Yeah. And a lot of times it's just stupid stuff, silly stuff.

I mean, just the other night, it's like we were fighting about something so dumb. It's like, come on and, and thankfully we've gotten to that point. One of the things, one of the concrete girls that we've seen in our marriage is that we get to a point where like, it takes us a shorter and shorter period of time now to recognize that and apologize and reconcile.

I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Have you guys seen that in your marriage? For sure. Yeah. We're like, wait a minute. Like he said, we love each other, right? This is dumb. When we first got married. Fought like cat and dogs. yeah, yeah. No one prepares you for that. I remember we, I remember you made a comment about it and you're like, why are we, we were in a big fight and you were like, why are we always fighting?

And I mean, it was we, and we're, you know, we are. Both. Very, what do you, how do you stubborn? Stubborn? Sure. Come up with a way to say it nicer, but sure. We're stubborn abstinence we're, you know, we're loud and opinionated. Yeah. And so for us, a simple fight, it, you know, could be, you know, a little explosive , but where, you know, quieter people might just, you know, whatever.

Okay. Sure. I think another thing too is , um, we both saw a really bad habit of thinking the one spouse thinking the worst of the other, like mm-hmm , you know, he might have done, you know, he might have left his. Come home with his dirty work boots and kicked them off on the floor and got dirt everywhere.

And I'm like, I just mopped this floor, you know, mm-hmm and obviously this is just a simple example of like, okay, he wasn't doing this to personally offend my perfectly mopped floors but I took my boots off in the garage by the way today. Yeah, good, man. Good man. but me just being like, you have no consideration for me and him being like, this is just me coming home from work and taking off my boots woman, you know um, and that was one of the things I feel like in our marriage, when we went to counseling, when we were married, that our counselor was like, why are you always making the worst to each other?

Yeah, like that was one thing that was routinely brought up until this bad habit was. Even still brutally knocked out of us. Like it's, it's still something that happens, shows up every so often, you know? Right. But thinking the worst of the other person, and when you hear your parents saying the worst of the other parent, it's just something that becomes so habitually ingrained.

And I think it's something also that marriages struggle with anyway. But yeah, when you're, when you've seen it, um, and you've seen, you know, I remember my parents definitely like thinking the worst of each other, um, in a lot of senses or, you know, taking something that someone did not do offensively as this big.

I remember there's been a few times too, where we've noticed in our, or I've come to realize that certain things that my parents did that I thought were normal are not normal. For instance, as a small example, my dad. It was very particular about how my mom spent money. And I remember, you know, going through the McDonald's drive through and her saying, I'm gonna pay with cash.

Don't tell dad McDonald's cause he'll get really mad at me. And one time we were trying to be more frugal, not eat out. And I was really tempted cuz I was out, it was lunchtime and I'm like, I'm just gonna take the kids through the drive through. But here. And I we've made this packed. We're gonna be trying more frugal.

We're not trying not to eat out right now, but I could just pay with cash and I could not tell him. And all of a sudden realizing, like that's such a terrible thing. And then I'm tell my kids, don't tell dad this secret from dad called him crying and being like, I can't believe this. Like, this was like my normal.

And like, I just can't imagine doing this to you. That's just so wrong. It sounds like such a small little dumb thing, but it's just like such a wrong thing to portray to our children and such a wrong thing to do to each other in the smallest of things. Like there's so many bigger things, but like that was like our normal, like hurry up and throw the trash out.

So bury the trash under some other trash. So dad doesn't see the McDonald's wrappers, you know, like, because, so it's been eyeopening too, in a sense of like, I didn't realize how weird and wrong that was. I think people, uh, maybe who don't come from broken families or haven't listened to stories like this, they might think like, what's the big deal, like, come on.

What's the big deal. Mm-hmm and, and, you know, obviously the research is really clear. There's so many stories about this, but the reason that's a big deal is because. And the reason we struggle more in relationships. And again, that's what the research showed. The, the biggest area of our life. That's impacted by the breakdown of our parents' marriage.

And our family is our romantic relationships, particularly our marriages. And the reason is that simple. We learn how to love. We learn how to build relationships and even a marriage within our families. And if we saw bad example of that, it's like going to a bad university to learn, to be an engineer. And then right.

You know, like an aerospace engineer and then being told, okay, build a rocket. It's like build a rocket. We're gonna, we're gonna put some people on this rocket. It's gonna go to space. It's like good luck. Like, so for engineers, I don't wanna be on his rocket. I don't wanna be on his rocket. No, thanks.

exactly. So it's like, we, we literally had this very poor education. Not, not bashing our parents, but it just to be objective and honest, it's like, this is a very poor way to learn how to love, how to build relationships. And we're carrying that with us. And what, you know, researchers have found too, is that once you've formed a habit, that's always in your.

Like that neural pathways alwa it can't be erased. It can't be erased. It could be replaced, but it can't be erased. And that's why PI what you were saying before. It's like this stuff can pop up when it's triggered in certain situations would make yeah. Makes sense. So, um, no, it, that, that's why it's a big deal.

It's like, literally we were school, we got a degree. We were, you know, taught how to build love or, or maybe the lack of in our families. And that, that's why it can be so difficult, even in small situations where we're just have these knee jerk reactions to do something that's ultimately gonna damage the marriage in the family.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I just wanna say to all the listeners that your parents' divorce while it's always gonna be there, it doesn't get erased. There, there is hope. There was hope in my prayer that, okay, this is not how I'm gonna spend my adult life. There was a lot of don't feel hopeless in the sense of this.

Doesn't have to define you and the rest of your life, and you can still find happiness and you can still go on to have a good marriage like our marriage. Isn't perfect, but I'd say we have a good marriage and we're both very happy. I'm very happy. I'm happy too. and we enjoy our family so much and we feel like it's, in some ways, it, not that divorce is ever a blessing, but we've received the grace of really trying to be so intentional about our marriage and putting a lot of work into it.

I mean, the counseling itself was a lot of work and. Emphasizing always to each other, that divorce is never an option. It's not, it's not the D word. We don't, we don't talk about it. We don't say it. We don't threaten it. It's never, you know, brought up in a fight and we don't even joke about it. Really. We don't joke about it.

It's it's, it's, it's like a cuss word in this house pretty much. Yeah. So good. I love that. No, Maria, thank you for balancing that with hope. I think, you know, we need to do both. We need to see the truth and just acknowledge that, okay. This was really difficult thing to go through, but at this, in the same breath, say what exactly what you said that there's so much hope you can change.

You can't heal. You can grow. That is a possibility mm-hmm a lot of people don't believe that actually, a lot of people have this fixed mindset where they think, well, I'm just am the way I am. I kind of destined to down on the road. That's, that's a, it's a sense of perspective. And to think that, you know, it's a difference of.

Are you going to take the route of the victim mentality? You know, I mean, I, I saw, uh, this, this funny post on Facebook years ago, and it was just a picture of a blank sheet of paper. And it said here's a list of all the things that you're entitled to , you know, and I'm like, that is fricking brilliant because it is, I mean, really think about it.

Yeah. I mean, hundreds of years ago, you know, thousands of years ago, what, what did people do? They, in order to do anything, they had to blood, sweat, and tears to, to live and survive just to survive for God's sakes, you know? And, and now we're, we're living our cushy lives, you know, for a majority of the world.

And we're like, oh my mommy and daddy fight, and this is tough. And I mean, not to, not to lessen, anybody's it, doesn't invalidate people's pain. Yeah. Not to invalidate people's pain because there's pain, but, but it's, but you can rise up from this pain. It's not the worst thing in the world. You know, you're not dying from cancer.

You can get up every day and you can go to work and you can make your life better and, and you can choose not to follow those habits. Yeah. You know, you can choose to set boundaries. Um, yeah. And, and to, to grow and, and become stronger and rise above the issues at hand, some people will struggle with the feeling of worthlessness.

We've definitely seen that in some of our siblings, this feeling of like worthlessness and it's just such a lie. It's just from the, Demonn trying to get his clause into you, whichever way he can. Mm-hmm that you're worthless because. Your parents split up and you weren't worth it to them to, to fix this.

Like you being their child isn't worth it. It is, it is a lie. And then because every person is worth something in the eyes of God and all equally, and yeah, everyone's equally worth and it's, you know, to, to rise above that worthlessness and, and to escape it because if, if you sit there and just continue to wallow it, don't wallow in it.

Yeah. Don't wallow in it. If you continue to wallow it, all it will do is just eat it. You eat at you. And it's just, it's a terrible spiral of, of depression that will only get worse and worse and worse. And, uh, cuz there was, there was a great time. It was quite a, there was a few years that, that I was very severely depressed.

And I don't even know if you know that Joey and, and it was, it was tough. There was a lot of dark thoughts and a lot of big issues that, that I had and I struggled with, and I felt that, you know, I was all alone and well, cuz in some ways you were, I mean, in some ways I was, and like you said earlier, my, we had a, a very good priest friend who was my mentor and spiritual director who helped me see out that.

And then you and you Joey and, and our, our friends helped me a lot too to see beyond that, that there was more than just my pain and suffering, that there was a whole world out there that I could, I can rise above my own issues and to become something greater and better. And, and, and to. In a horrible sense, also learning from our parents' mistakes.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not gonna make this mistake, right. Or that mistake, not, not, not wasting that in so many ways. And man, you guys on some, so many good things. Um, and I think a lot of people listening right now feel that worthlessness and they feel, they struggle with the victim mentality. I know I've been there and uh, there's still tendencies.

They have to fight against. And I think that's one of the biggest things that's just destroying our world right now is that victim mentality. And the reason why people like Jordan Peterson are so popular, cuz they basically speak directly against that, which is amazing. So much good stuff there. I don't wanna cut this short, but I don't wanna keep you guys forever.

I, uh, I did wanna ask you though an important question. Feel free to finish anything you wanted to say there, but then also if your parents were listening right now, what, what would you want them to. Oh, geez. Is this a softball question? oh yeah, it's a softball question. Sure. um, that I wish things were different and I don't think there's anything that can really change that at this point, but I, I want what's best for both of my parents and I hope that we all end up in heaven together someday as one.

Happy non dysfunctional family. Yeah. Trying to say this in the nicest way possible, but quote, my favorite shirt that my wife found for me. Well, no. Oh no, I, you get over it. You know, he's got a t-shirt that says get over it literally it's, you know, I mean, It's like, I mean, like you said, it's, it's over, it's done.

It sucks. Well, it's, it's, it's never this way. Well, the, the initial worst part is over. It happened, it happened, it happened it's there. The fallout just continues, unfortunately, you know, and to just accept the fact, you know, that it sucks. Mm-hmm well, and, and don't complain to us about it specifically. You put yourself there.

Yes. You know, but, but it sucks. And, and to accept it because it, it, it has to happen there. There's no change in it. There's nothing we can do. It's it's the, you know, to have the serenity to accept the fact that you can't change this now, because it's happened mm-hmm and, and to move on and have a courage to change the things you can.

And the wisdom to know the difference. Yeah. So what, if you, what you would tell your parents, if they were listening, is the serenity prayer. I would tell them the serenity pray this, which was a huge, which was a huge help. Uh, for me, um, was the serenity prayer, which, I mean, that was, is there a lot of things that you can't change?

That was I had, I had, I think I was 20 and I had a conversation with a, just a total stranger out in Nebraska at a seminary with this, with this guy at, I think it was one o'clock in the morning and we sat there and I literally just told this guy, random stranger dude, my entire life story. and, uh, to back this up, uh, earlier in the day I ate a couple of really bad tacos.

Um, so then the next morning after I had this whole conversation with this guy, I woke up with food poisoning. ouch. So then he just, he just took this plaque that I still have in my room today and slid it under my door in, in the dorm room. And it was the serenity prayer. And he was like, here you go. And I, that's a really great prayer for people who are feeling hopeless, whether they are divorced or a child of divorce or thinking about it.

It, that got me that really changed my perspective on, I mean, just life in general, but specifically with, with my parents' divorce and everything, you know, cuz there's only so much I can do and everything else is up to God. And that's it. That's freeing that that's really freeing. Do either of you hate your parents hate?

Yeah. No, my, my dad and I are estranged. I don't hate him, but he's treated me ill in a lot of ways. And so yeah, we like with the help of counseling have put up that boundary that it is not in my best interest emotionally or mentally or physically to really have a relationship with him at this point.

Yeah. Makes sense. So, no, I don't hate my dad, but I do hate a lot of the ways he's treated me. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. Hate the sin. Love the center. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing I think that can be so toxic in families. Like we come from where we might not even feel like we're allowed to talk about in honesty, what has happened.

So I'm so glad we were able to do this. Really appreciate you spending time with us. Um, your wise, it's been just on a personal note, amazing watching you two grow. I know we haven't lived in the same place and haven't always, I haven't always been great with staying in touch with my friends, but I have to say you two are inspiring.

It's beautiful to see. I know probably could have a whole episode about this, but both of you coming from broken families, ads, a particularly challenging, um, can make things particularly challenging. And so it's amazing to watch the two of you just build your family, build your marriage and work through the inevitable issues that come up.

So perhaps you guys it's, uh, it really is inspiring. And not just saying that to give you big hat. It's it's beautiful. Um, so yeah, so with that, I wanna give you guys a last word. Like what words of encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who feels really broken? Feels stuck, maybe feels worthless because of everything they've been through, uh, with their dysfunctional family, with the broken family, with their parents' divorce or separation or whatever is the reality in, in their family.

Like what, what encouragement would you give them? What hope? What advice would you say to them? Hmm. You are the master of your fate. Yeah. I mean that's to, to remember that it's always, it's not the end of the world. It probably feels like it in the moment, but you know, it, it will get better, whether you're five or 15 or 50.

Yeah. And, and to pray. And, and remember, I mean, really to remember that. And I, and I would tell everybody to really pray the serenity prayer, to understand what you have, the ability to change and everything else is all in God's hands, all in God's hands and a any, any of the, the negative thoughts. They're not from God.

No, they're, they're not. And he wants all the best for you. He knows that my favorite Bible verse that gave me hope was Jeremiah 29 11 for, I know the plans I have for you says the Lord plans of welfare and not a wo to give you a future full of hope. And like I said, whether you're older or younger and you feel hopeless, Your future is supposed to be full of hope.

That's what, that's what God has promised. And the SI the sins of your parents are not yours. So don't drag them along with you.

By the way, the episode that I couldn't remember with Mike and Alicia, Hern from the messy family podcast is episode 44. Again, that's episode 44 of our podcast. Hey, if Stewart has helped you, we'd love to hear how we've helped you. And some of the benefits of sharing your story with us, how we've helped you.

It gives us insight into what's most valuable for you guys. It helps us set strategy for the future so we can keep serving you. And then it shows other people the effectiveness of our work, which convinces them to use our content and the tools that we produce. And so we wanna share your testimonial. You can just go to restored.

Dot com slash testimony. Again, ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony can answer the quick questions about how ReSTOR has helped you. It can be totally anonymous. It's your choice. If you want your name on it or not, and then share how restored has helped you in that form. So you can do that again at ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 67. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone, rare here to help you feel whole again, and become the person that you were born to be.

#066: A Resource for Families in Crisis | Anne DeSantis

When you’re 7 years old and your parents divorce out of the blue, it causes confusion and lots of questions. Unfortunately, the struggles for my guest didn’t stop there. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• How her parents divorce has impacted her, even years later

• What to do when your divorced parents become ill and near the end of their lives, especially if you have a tense relationship with them

• An organization that exists to help families in crisis

Get help from the St. Raymond Nonnatus Foundation

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Anne DeSantis

  • Philly Nonnatus - YouTube

  • Love and Care for the Marginalized

  • Anne DeSantis Website

  • St. Raymond Nonnatus Foundation

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today was only seven years old when her parents divorced and it came out of the blue for her. And it cause her a lot of confusion. It caused her to ask a ton of questions about why things were changing. And so in this episode, we discussed how her parents divorce has impacted her even many years later, we talk about what to do when your parents become ill and near the end of their lives.

Especially if you have a tense relationship with. And then you'll also hear about an organization that exists to help families in crisis. Good stuff. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy pond re thank you so much for joining us. This is episode 66. My guest today is Anne DeSantis, Anne, as a. Mother of two adult daughters, Catholic authors speaker model, and actress from the greater Philadelphia area.

Ginger masters in theology in 2021 from St. Joseph's college in Maine. Although she had a career before motherhood spending quality family time will always be one of the best decisions she ever made. She says she'd been a stay at home homeschooling mom to her two daughters from pre-K to grade 12 as she was also a teacher by.

She now hosts a weekly TV show called journeys and faith on Fiat ministry network and a podcast on patchwork, heart radio with bill Schneider, interviewing people, doing good things and spreading. From 2018 to 2020, she hosted the weekly TV show called the positive side and interviewed amazing people.

Now, primarily she is the director of the St. Raymond nanas foundation for freedom, family and faith. She loves this work and feels honored to do it in this episode. You'll hear the fact that Anna is a Catholic Christian. And so we discussed God and faith in this interview. If that's not your belief, we're really glad that you're here.

My challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, you're still gonna benefit from this. I. So here's my conversation with Anne DeSantis,

Anne, welcome to the show. It's been a long time coming. Thanks for your patience, but glad we can finally do this. Yes, I'm so glad to be here with you, Joey. Thank you. You're doing wonderful work on your podcast and your ministry. Thank you. No right back at you. I know you're very active in this area, helping people who come from broken families.

And I know we'll get into that, uh, in a bit, but first I wanna start with your story. So how old were you when your parents separated and divorce? Admittedly, I am not a millennial I am older. Uh, so my parents. In 1972, probably many, many years before your, some of your listeners were born. And at that time I was seven years old.

So at this time I'm 57 years old. It was quite a long time ago. And yeah, so seven years old was when they divorced though. That was a while ago. I mean, there there's so many similarities, as I know, you know, from working with people who come from broken families. Um, so regardless of if it was. Long ago or not.

I, I know you, you have a deep understanding of this problem and yeah. I'm curious what happened in your family? Well, what happened in my family was when my parents married now, that was in the kind of mid to early 1960s. They were both Catholic and they were both, you know, churchgoers people who went to through Catholic school.

People who understood the faith, I believe, but when they got married, There was a lot of communication issues from the very, very beginning. And they, they had four children almost immediately. Um, in fact, my mom and dad, their four kids, basically, there was only a year or two years or so at the most between each of their kids.

And so from my understanding and from my memory is. They, and, and as I said, I was only seven, so my, I don't have clear, clear memories of everything when I was that young. But, uh, they did always have some kind of, uh, relationship issues in terms of not getting along, arguing things like that. So when I was about, yeah, like I said, I was seven years old.

I wasn't given any kind of heads up what was going to be happening, but one. I woke up and my mom said movers were there. People were moving the furniture. And so I was told, you know, we're leaving. And so my mom left my father and we stayed away for a given amount of time, you know, in a hotel, because basically what happened was, is that my dad really did not want this divorce.

And he arrived home from. That day from work and the house was pretty much cleared out. There were some things that were left there, but my mom put those things in storage, and then she didn't tell him where she was, cuz she really wanted to get away from him because of the, the, the nature of their relationship and how not good.

It was mm-hmm . And so she had made that decision that I need to leave him. And so at, at that point, then we were established in an apartment. We lived there for a little while and then eventually got a house. Within, I would say within about three or four years, my mom had gotten another relationship. She did get an Anul egg, did get an annulment and my mom did get remarried and eventually my dad got, got remarried too.

Okay. And so that's kind of like the facts, I guess of it. I mean, of course there's also the feelings involved too. Right. But I wanted to give you sort of that factual information about the divorce. So they were an old, got remarried. My mom and my stepdad now have been married for, you know, going on, I think 47 or 48 years.

Uh, they actually just had their anniversary. Uh, my father is deceased and he was remarried. And unfortunately when my FA my father remarried twice after that, both of his wives died. So my dad was left single at the end of his life. He passed away in 2018. Say, it's been a journey. It's been a journey for me.

And, and that's, you know, the, the, I guess the, like I said, the factual parts of, of what happened back then. One thing I will say is that these days there's something like restored ministries, like the St. Reman or not foundation, where I work as the director mm-hmm . But back then, you know, there were not support systems for people like you and I, who were the adult children of divorce, or even, even for the people who are separated or divorced there wasn't Catholic.

There wasn't as many Catholic resources for them to find the healing and to find. Coming back after going through a trauma, cuz that's pretty much what it is, is going through trauma. Absolutely. And there's such a gap there. I think even still I know where both our organizations are working hard, but there's just so many people to serve.

And a lot of times this problem is just assumed to be normal. And so people might not even be looking for help, even though they do need it, which we can get into. So there's so much work to be done. But yeah, that, that was a similar situation with me. That's the reason why ReSTOR exists at all is because we, um, you know, in my own life, I look for help.

I look for some resource to help me navigate the pain and the problems that I was experiencing to, to find healing. Like I wanted really practical advice on how to heal and when I looked around, I just didn't find that. And so I'm glad, you know, resources like ours. Like your foundation and, and our ministry is, um, is, are sprouting up, but it is man, that must have felt so alone.

So I wanna go, there's so much to what you said, but I want to go into the feeling part of it as well, if that's okay. And, um, yeah. What was going through your mind? What was going through your heart as that seven year old, going through all that. Well, I will say the first feeling that I can remember and recall, of course, like I said, now we're talking 50 years ago, so sure.

Um, is probably just the question marks like, Hey, where are we going? What's happening? You know? Where's, you know, what's gonna happen with our family, that kind of thing. And so I was the oldest too, out the oldest out of four now of course my mom, when I said she remarried my, I have another sister too, from my mom's, uh, second marriage, uh, my youngest sister.

So, um, my, my, my father. I did not have any more children with either of the two wives that he had, as I mentioned, um, he had stepchildren, but I guess the first, like I said, the first thing was the question marks, you know, what do I do? What do I think, what do I say? And I think the biggest thing that I dealt with was realizing that I needed to just learn how to take care of myself in many ways, in terms of what was going on in my own life at a young age, uh, not to say that my parents.

Didn't care about me and do their best, cuz they, they did, especially my mom. I mean, I lived with my mom, my mom raised me, my mom and my stepfather really were the ones that. Were my quote unquote family, because my dad wasn't, he did have a part of my life, but I would say that due to the circumstances, he, wasn't a huge part of my everyday life.

When I was growing up from the ages of seven all the way through, till the end of high school and even through college, the good news is he did have a relationship with me. I mean, he did come to visit and, and take us and take us to see him. But I guess what I'm saying is you hear some stories where the father is very active.

You know, very much wants to be a part of the, the li the life of their kids after a divorce. But with my dad, I would say, not so much, he, he did care. He did pay support, paid the child support. But he wasn't super active in, in my life or even in any of my siblings lives, but that did come full circle. I'm gonna tell, tell you more about that too, because when you're the adult child of divorce, it isn't just from when you're younger, it goes through the entire lifespan and me being one of those older people.

Right. And so, uh, what I was feeling, what I was thinking was pretty much, you know, wanting to get some attention. I think that every child. Once the attention of their parents, but when they're going through some kind of a trauma, the parents are really the spotlight aren't they? They're the, they're the spotlight of what's going on at that time.

And I, I have to say, I think my mom and my step dad, they did a great job doing their best to, you know, to, to really be a big part of, of who I was and everybody in our family. So I commend them for that. For, for everything and for the rest of my family too. But I think, you know, divorce and separation, no matter which way you look at it, whether it's a quote, easy divorce, you know, you hear those stories where people say, well, we're just not getting along.

We're gonna get divorced. And I. They're ending the relationship and they do try to make it as easy quote, unquote, as easy as they can for the kids. Right. But there's still gonna be some kind of challenge, trauma, adversity, whatever, just because the family unit is being separated. Right. So, and I learned a lot about that as I got older, the one thing you were talking about my feelings was that when I got to be a teenager, there was nothing more in my life that I wanted then to get married.

And to be with a person forever. That was my thing. I wanted to find the right person and spend the rest of my life. I, I had that deep desire to do that. I would say from a teenager on and lucky for me, you know, I found the person that I would spend the rest of my life with when I was 19. And I'm still with him now, right?

I mean, we, we dated for a while and then we got married when I was 24 and we're still together. We're celebrating our coming up this year in August. We'll be celebrating, uh, 33 years together. My husband is Catholic. We are both divided to our faith. Thank God. But that was what I wanted. I wanted that. And, and I would say on the feeling end of things, that was my desire was to, to find the person that I wanted to feel very secure with.

And be with in a relationship. And thankfully I did now that came full circle because when my husband and I, uh, were married and were dating, we were Catholic, but I, I can't say Joey, where wed Catholics, did we know what you and I know about the church and about the catechesis part of it and about well theology, the body, I don't even think was really known at that time when we were dating, was we married in 1989?

So I, I think that. After it was written, but maybe before Christopher West came out, Made it a lot more of a popular thing and, and well known in the Catholic church, but we were not super well. Catechized is what I'm trying to say. The way that it came full circle was that I had a life threatening condition in 1999, where I was diagnosed with a disease after my second pregnancy, uh, called peripartum cardiomyopathy.

Heart failure after a pregnancy and talking about the science of all of that is probably for a different program. But in a nutshell, I got the sacrament of the sick and I was healed from it. I mean, I was healed now. It still took me time to get back to normal. After that, it still took me time to. I, I, it took me about a year or so till I was really, really back to normal after heart failure, but it's been 23 years and I'm still doing very well physically, uh, and spiritually.

And that's what happened during that time was that my faith became very, very important to me after getting the sacrament of the sick. and realizing that God was the one that healed me and saved me from dying at a young age, in my thirties, cuz that's how old I was when I got the disease. And then my husband and I, we met some people in our area, uh, who were involved in the charismatic renewal.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the alpha course. Have you ever heard of that before? Yeah. Yeah. I've heard of that. I don't, I don't know if our listeners have though feel free to explain it to me. Yeah. So in 2000, in the year, 2000 and 2001, I took it in 2000. My husband took it in 2001. We did the alpha course, which is, um, it isn't a Catholic course.

Believe it or not, it's a ecumenical, but there is something called alpha for Catholics. The founder of it is Nikki Gumble. He's an, an Episcopal minister in, in great Britain. He is amazing. And the whole course is really about getting to know Jesus, who he is, who he is to you and who is the holy spirit.

Hmm. And my husband and I went on the, what they refer to as the holy spirit weekend. And it was a very much a quote Catholic charismatic retreat where we were prayed over and met a bunch of very Onfi Catholics. And, uh, and from then, I mean, it was like an opening, an opening of the door to us getting to.

Our faith and loving our faith and, uh, and really it has made a big effect. Now, am I still very charismatic? Am I still into that whole idea of praying to the holy spirit? I mean, I still do pray that way, but I sort of have evolved into more of a contemp prayer myself in my faith. I wanted to get more educated too.

And in 2000. 12. I got my certificate in pastoral ministry through my archdiocese, uh, the archdiocese of Philadelphia. And I just got my master's in theology last year, 2001, excuse me, 2021 from St. Joseph's college of Maine. So congratulations. It's beautiful to thank you. It's beautiful to have not only the.

Spiritual side of our Catholicism, but the educational side, right. Getting to know the faith and really understand it and the pastoral side. And so as the story developed, now, I'm gonna continue this story a little aside from the divorce part of it. Right. But in 2013, I was searching for a spiritual director.

I had two spiritual directors die in a year. Both of them had cancer. And I looked all over the place to find a new spiritual director. And I found a religious order, the Arian religious order. And I was referred to by a priest who became my spiritual director and really helped guide me through another difficult time that came in my life.

And so long story short, I became what we call Merced third order. And that is a prayerful lay member of a religious order. So that evolved into me being invited to become the director of this foundation that I'm now working for. As you were alluding to the St. Raymond ANATAS foundation for freedom, family and faith, to end the story about, I said I wanted to go back to my dad and my mom, and just tell you what happened later on was that.

When my father got old and sick and he came to me before he needed a nursing home. And he said, I need you to help me because I, I don't have anybody to mind. My matter, my, my matters if I die, you know, I need somebody to be that power of attorney in the executor too, as well. And so he was in a nursing home for like seven or eight years and my husband and I.

Oversaw, both of us, my husband was actually the executor. Uh, he did that for me as kind of as a favor, uh, because he knows a lot about those things and matters. But what I'm trying to say is for those people, listening is. No matter where you are with your parents' divorce separation is that it comes full circle at the end of their lives.

And at the end, even when you get older ways that you can reach out and make a difference for them. And so I was able to be there for him at the end of that life and be able to plan the funeral, be there and feel like, you know, the mission kind of came full circle into who I could be for my. And even, you know, my mom and my stepdad also are people that I visit every week and spend time with and able to give back to them and help them as they are both not doing very well physically at this time.

And their, my mom just turned 80. So it just comes full circle. You know, when you get older, how you can minister it to them, no matter where they. Despite as you refer to that brokenness that happens in family. Wow. No, that's so good that that's no, it's good. There's so much to, um, talk about. I, I think it is beautiful that you've gotten to that point where, you know, you have that loving relationship with your mom, your stepdad yes.

Where you were able to be there for your dad and his last moments. Uh, you know, we hear from people in so many different situations. So some people who maybe are at such a difficult spot in their relationship with their parents. So I wanna go there for a second if it's okay. And just get your advice, advice on that.

So whether they're younger or older, um, maybe their parents are going through some health issues and they're not on the best of terms, let's say, unlike your situation. And I'm sure there was stuff to work through, but it sounds like you guys were at at least a decent spot to be able to do that. What would be your advice on, you know, as a child trying to improve that relationship, trying to bring some sort of piece, some sort.

Stability perhaps, or at least some sort of union between the child or children and, and their parents who might have had a strained relationship for years. And then you get to this point in life where it's like, well, I might not be with them much longer. Like how do you deal with that? Well, I think the way that you deal with it is when I was going through spiritual direction.

One, one of the things that my Merced spiritual director had talked to me about was that it's a certain acceptance. Right? And so healing. My definition of healing really is understanding and realizing that sin exists in this world in all forms. And that what that means is that, yes, it's gonna exist in marriages, right?

It's going to exist when marriages are dis dissolved or ending, but there's still such reason for hope, because you can be healed in a way of being able to take your. Pain and to being able to help other people. I think that's the best advice I can give is take the pain and what you learned, right? What you continue to learn.

I had a lot of bumps on the road between the age of 57 and seven, starting at age seven when they got divorced. Right. And a lot of learning that happened during that time too, and, and always grow in your faith. Always continue to try to learn. know more about what does it really mean to be Catholic? It isn't a set of rules.

It isn't a set of check boxes. It isn't hopping over a fence and saying, I'm healed now. I'm all better. And now I can teach people to be like me because I still I'm still my, at my age and all that I've been through. I still need some kind. Quote healing. Don't I, me too. I mean, it's not a once and done, right.

It's a continual thing for all of us is that we are continuing to be healed by the more that we give ourselves to other people. The more that we try to take, what we've learned and try to minister to other people. and yeah, we wanna preach good marriages and, and hopefully as Catholics and people who really know our faith, we, we hope to have more healthy marriages and more healthy relationships, including for adult children or divorce.

Right. You're gonna, hopefully you'll get into a, a, a good relationship. And stay there, but statistically they say, I mean, you know, this Joey that sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes people are affected by divorce and they wind up getting divorced someday themselves. Mm-hmm . Um, but I think the best way to avoid that is to really pray about it, get to know your faith and put your faith first before you get into that relationship.

Right? I mean, I think that could be good advice is if you are Catholic, if you're C. And even if you're a person of Goodwill is get to know God, get to know the, get to know his will for your life. Right? God doesn't want any of us to have broken relationships. Do, does he, whether they're marriages, whether they're friendships, whether they're next door, neighbors, whatever.

I mean, God doesn't want any, God wants us to all be in communion. Doesn't he? So I think what we learn about is we learn how to foster good relationships with others and learn that forgiveness is a huge part of being an adult. Child of divorce really is. Yeah. The big part about how you get along with your parents.

It's a big part about how you get along with your siblings. You know, sometimes when parents get. Siblings don't get along all the time. There may be one parent, one sibling who loves, loves the charism of mom's side of the family. And another one who likes the dads. I'm not saying that was my situation, but there could be ones that split off that get along better with one parent or the other, but it doesn't really have to be that way.

I think in divorce situations, they like to take sides. Right. But sides are not a good thing. It's better to say that Christ wants communion. Right. He wants some kind of getting along despite the. He wants some kind of like, okay, fine. Our, our parents are divorced, separated, or an old whatever it is, but there doesn't have to be hatred.

There doesn't have to be hatred cuz hatreds the sin it's a mortal sin really is. And so I think we need to unpack that inside of our hearts and say. Despite what happened. We can move on and have love for our enemies. Love for those we get along great with and love for those who we don't get along. So great with.

I appreciate that. No, and, and that all makes a lot of sense. And, um, now it's admirable the way you're able to do that with, uh, with your parents and. There's a, a scene in the movie. Batman begins where Bruce, if you're familiar with the movie, um, those of you listening, you know, um, Bruce Wayne's parents are killed in a robbery.

And so he spends, you know, the next 10 years or so of his life just being so angry and so hateful of criminals and. And, um, he, he goes on this path to learn essentially to, to fight crime. But, um, one of the things that he wants is to rev revenge, avenge his parents' death by killing the man who killed them.

And so in the movie, what happens is essentially that person gets killed before Bruce can get to him. And, uh, and so he's, you know, very frustrated that, that he wasn't able to, to do that. And so he's just so consumed in his own pain basically. And, and there's a valid reason for that, right? He, he was really hurt by what happened and he rightfully was angry towards this person, but his childhood friend, Rachel.

Uh, has a great line and she says, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. And I think that's what I hear you saying here is like, sometimes we need to look beyond our own pain to see, okay, there's other people who are hurting now. I, I wanna caveat that to, to everyone listening, cuz I think it is important to understand that like your, your pain matters.

And what you've been through. And if you do have that anger towards your parents, uh, I would never say, you know, and I know Ann's not saying this either. Just to clarify what we're saying here, we would never say to like, shove that down or ignore it like that, that deserves its place, right. That deserves healing and all that.

But I think there, there are times where we might be, it might be necessary to look beyond our own pain in order to do what's best for someone else, as in the situation of. You know, our parents being ill and, and dying, which is of course a such a difficult chapter in life. So of course, you know, another, another caveat would be, we're not saying to walk into a very toxic or abusive situation that's should be obvious, but just to clarify that, but, but there are those situations where we might need to put our own needs or own wants in the back burner, not forever, but, but for a time, because the situation calls us to, to rise to a certain level.

Mm, I like how you address to the toxic, because I think that is also very important for people to understand that. And if someone is in a bad relationship and it it's truly toxic and, and they go through counseling and things, aren't working, you know, unfortunately, sometimes people do wind up getting separated or divorced.

I see that even with the foundation I represent and sometimes whether it be some kind of a terrible addiction that they just can't give up. something like that, you know, but just realizing that God it's a cliche line. Right. But God does write right straight with crooked lines. I mean, I do believe that I do believe that no matter what has happened in your life or in your family's life is that God loves you.

And he has only great plans, not just for you, but your whole family. Right. Your whole family. And, and sometimes at the end of our lives and at the end of their lives, it seems there's still some broken puzzle pieces there that, you know, you might say, well, I'm so sad that this didn't work out, or there's still some issues in my extended family, but don't give up praying.

Right? Don't give up praying. In fact, um, I, I like to do masses for deceased people all the time. And, um, one thing I do, my, my father died on April 16th. Of 2018 and, and, and that's right around the time of Easter. And so for this year, uh, I'm gonna be doing a mass for his soul. It actually is. On the Eve of Easter, so that Easter vigil, so the Easter vigil at my church will be for my father, you know?

And, and so I think it's just a beautiful way that if people are listening, whether it's a grandparent, maybe it's your grandparent that you like to offer a mask for, but just, you know, don't ever give up praying for your family is what I'm saying. And, and even if there seems to be so many hurtful things from the past, at the end of someone's life, that they still weren't really in your eyes, it doesn't look like they were healed.

But, you know, God continues that healing after death, doesn't he? And when we pray for them, when we offer those masses for them alive, we're dead, you know, you're, you're gonna see some things happen. It might not be in our lifetime, but remember, heaven is the goal and we might not be able to ever see that here on earth, that, that they, they definitely went to heaven were sure of that, but, but just don't give up, don't give up on.

You know, it's okay to have boundaries too, with toxic people. And sometimes with divorces and separations, you know, there might be some toxic relationships, even with your, your siblings, stepparent, uh, you know, extended family. You might need to keep some healthy boundaries there, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But just remember that God does right straight with crooked lines. And I believe that that there are only good things. He only has good things in store for all of. Yeah. Yeah. As a teenager, uh, you had that strong desire to be married and to make it last. And I think that's just a beautiful thing. And it's so inspiring that you've been able to do that, cuz you're right.

Statistically, we're more likely to repeat the cycle that we come from. Tell me a little bit, if you would. Um, how, how has your parents' divorce, the brokenness there affected your dating relationships and then your now, now marriage. Thank you so much. Well, when I was, let me think when I was a teenager, you know, every house has kind of a different sort of rule a different way.

You know, of course we're talking in 1970s, which was a different timeframe than, than now. Right. You know, I think what I. I had this desire when I was that age, where I had a desire to be friends with many people, whether they were male, female, I just wanted to be around people. I wanted to have friends. I wanted to talk on the phone.

I wanted to go places. I wanted to do things. And being that I was in that home that was, you know, from a divorce that's separated. Um, my mom was very busy. Her younger kids all the time and, and she was working and she was a great mom, but let's just say that I learned through trial and error, I guess that, you know, I learned through trial and error that we need to have kind of a boundary with ourselves, even if I have this desire, right.

I have this desire that, you know, I wanna find the right guy when I was a teenager. I want to find a family someday. so that was in my heart all the time. Right. And, and I, and I could say I got hurt some of the times I did get hurt with some of those, like teenage, like before the age of 19, when I met my husband, unfortunately I did get hurt some of the time.

Thankfully, when I met my husband, it was funny how the holy spirit worked. Because as soon as I met him, God, the holy spirit really spoke to me. I just felt like I met this person that I finally really clicked. I almost knew instantly. I know that sounds kind of another cliche thing. Right. But it was almost kind of like that God enlightened my brain.

This is it. You met him. And I remember going home that night and saying to my mom, the first time we went out on a date, I said, I think I met the person that I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with. I said, wow, now he might be listening right now. There's one thing about my husband, as you see, I'm more of a talker.

that's a good thing. I'm a talker, right? I mean, I'm a good listener too, but my husband is a very good listener. Mm he's. The type that can just sit and listen for. A half hour and he won't interrupt you. And so that was what my indicator was. I said, this is the guy because he was not at all being married to me.

I didn't wanna have a guy that I wanted to be equals with someone. Does that make sense? A hundred percent. I didn't wanna have somebody where either I was sort of in charge or that he was like, over me and kind of rolling my life, not to say that that's what marriage is about. It's not about that. There is a head of the household in that, and we know that, right?

Sure. But the whole idea that we're equals and my husband sees me as an equal in every way, in terms of our relationship. And he, my, my opinion is valuable. And in raising our kids, my opinion is also very valuable. And so, yeah. So I think even though, yeah, there were mistakes, there were things in that looking back, I probably.

Maybe should have been a little more like less eager, right? Less eager to find that, that man of my dreams when I was like 17, but in the end of the day, God provided, he, he provided my husband at the age of 19. We've been married ever since. I mean, there there's been tr we've had problems. I mean, I think every marriage let's not lie.

It's not gonna be perfect. All right. If you never argue with your spouse or disagree, I would say that person might be. Because I think that every relationship is gonna have bumps and they're gonna have, you know, times of yelling matches once in a while about this is what I think, no, this is better, you know, mm-hmm but what you do is you learn healthy communication skills.

And so that's my best advice is just, you know, if, if you've had mistakes in your life, just learn about your faith, follow your faith, move forward. And if you need counseling, just. Yeah. And thank you. And, uh, I just, I wanted to give you an opportunity too, if there's anything else you wanna say about the foundation and how people could follow you, how they can contact you aside from what you just mentioned?

Well, all I would say is we did some thinking this past year, we really did some thinking about who we are, what we do. And so I'll just give you some basic information. We have three areas of outreach. Number one is families in. Number two is marriage enrichment. And number three is outreach to divorce and separated Catholics intru, including adult children of divorce.

But our main charism is that families in crisis. So whether it's a relationship issue, as I said, pro-life job loss sickness, hospitalization. Any of those areas, please do reach out to us@nonazis.org. At our website, we offer. Priestly consultation, podcasts and videos and programs and events. We would love to come to your diocese or arch diocese to do, um, any type of presentation O on the outreach that we do, letting them know that we're there, the church cares.

And so does the St. Raymond OAU foundation. That's our little tagline, and we're there for you. And like I said, simply reach out to us on our website. Please do subscribe. We do podcast two. Can I mention that? Sure. Joey's Joey's gonna be a guest on our podcast coming up soon. So you have to listen to that one.

Um, our YouTube channel is called Philly. No. Philly like the city. That's where I'm from. You might have been able to figure that out from the accent. Philly. No NS. Okay. Subscribe to our website and watch our podcasts on families in crisis and outreach to divorce. Thank you so much again. Oh yeah. My wife's a Philly girl.

You guys are tough. Oh, she okay. Yeah. Well, we'll just talk about that more some time, but uh, thank you so much. And I wanted to, uh, wanted to give you the final word. You know, we have people listening, primarily who come from broken families, um, young people, especially. And so what advice, uh, would you give to them?

What encouragement would you give to them? Uh, if they feel broken, if they feel stuck in life because of the trauma they've endured, uh, the final word to you, what would you say? Well, we were just talking about Philly weren't we? One of our famous movie figures is Rocky and it's, it is one of my favorite movies.

And one of the things that he says is. It ain't it ain't about how, how hard you hit it's about how hard you can get hit. And I don't mean physically all the time, right? How much you can get hit and keep moving forward. And that's a secular, a secular quote, isn't it. But no matter where you are in your life, God will help you to get up again.

He will help you to, to keep fighting, fighting for the good in this world, fighting for your family, fighting for your own relationships. And I mean, fighting right in a good way. Not in a physical bad way, right? But fighting for the good fighting for the marginalized people in this world, which could be even your own family members.

Uh, I also wanna mention one of the thing is that I'm the author of the book called love and care for the marginalized. So please do, if you would check out my own website to it and as santas.com and learn about a book that might be able to help you during lent, uh, 40 meditations for Catholics love and care for the margin.

I wanna thank you, Joey. Thank you so much for this beautiful opportunity to share and thank you for all you're doing. You are doing such incredible work. And for those listening to this podcast on our page, cuz I'm gonna put this all over the place on St. Raymond and nots foundation. Please subscribe to Joey's website, restored ministry dot.

Please subscribe to all of his channels everywhere, including all of the podcasting, if you haven't done. So this is a wonderful ministry. I can't say enough. Good about Joey and about the work that he's doing for people like you and I, who are adult children of divorce, Joey. Please, never stop doing this work that you're doing.

I, I personally just am so proud of what you're doing and I thank you

the question for all of you, but especially those of you who maybe are, uh, middle aged, listening to this podcast. What can you do? To prepare to handle the fact that your parents will become ill and approach death. At some point, it's a really good question to think about and perhaps even start acting on because before we know it, as hard as it is to talk about and think about it, we're gonna have to face those difficult realities.

And if we have a tense or really struggling relationship with one of our parents, it might be good to take some steps. So hopefully bring some peace and resolution to that. Relat. If you can, it's not always possible, but it's a good thing to start thinking about and planning. You probably know that my new book is live on Amazon as titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigate in the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken family is the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's brick down. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems.

Unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more. And I experience these exact same problems. It shouldn't be this way. We shouldn't be alone in navigating these difficult challenges. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers and the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions. The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading the book, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults are gonna experience how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They're gonna learn healing tactics to help them feel whole, again, super practical stuff. How to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions. About their future. So if you wanna buy the book, you can go to restored ministry.com/books on that page as well.

You can get the first chapters free. If you're not ready to buy again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. The resources mentioned are the show notes at restored ministry. Dot com slash 66. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#065: A Tool to Heal Your Brokenness and Your Relationship with God | Bob Siemens

If you’re from a broken family, you’ve likely experienced extra barriers in your relationship with God. In fact, you might not even believe in God because of what happened in your family. Wherever you’re at, we’re glad you’re here.

In this episode, you’ll hear how spiritual direction is a tool you can use to overcome those barriers, heal from the trauma you’ve endured, and become spiritually strong. We also discuss:

• Feeling guilty for wanting your parents to get divorced

• Specific challenges when relating to God, such as rejecting God as a way to protect yourself and the question “God, is this how you really treat people who love you?

• Temptation to suicide

• Personal fears, such as “Am I going to be like my abusive dad? Will my marriage end up like my parents’ marriage?

• How deepening your relationship with God helps you heal and feel whole again

If you’ve struggled in your relationship with God and felt far from him, this conversation is for you. 

Join the coaching waitlist for a counselor or spiritual director

Check out Franciscan University’s School of Spiritual Direction

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Bob Siemens

  • Email: rsiemens@franciscan.edu

  • Phone Number: (740)-283-6277

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, meaning your parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they have a really dysfunctional marriage. You've likely experienced extra barriers in your relationship with God. In fact, you might not even believe in God. As one young person told me he doesn't even believe in God because of everything that's happened in his family and wherever you're at.

We're glad you're here with us. And in this episode, my guest teaches us about a tool called spiritual direction that you can use to overcome those barriers heal from the trauma you've endured on a deeper level and becomes spiritually strong. My guest also shares how he struggled with the questions. Am I going to be just like my dad will my marriage end up like my parents' marriage.

He also opens up about how he felt guilty for wanting his parents to get divorced because things at home are so bad. He gets real about his own struggles and his relationship with God, such as how he rejected. God. As a way to protect himself and how he really wrestled with the question, God, is this really how you treat people who love you?

And most importantly, he tells us what he's done to heal his relationship with God. He also talks about his temptation to suicide as a young person. And he explains what spiritual direction is and how it helps you heal and grow. Now, if you're someone who has struggled in your relationship with God and you feel far from him, especially because of what's happened in your family.

You're really gonna appreciate this conversation. This is gonna be so helpful for you. So keep listening,

welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separat. Our broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 65. Now, before diving into the episode, I want to give you guys a sneak peek to something we've been working on at restored.

We've built a brand new workshop. The workshop has titled how to heal from the trauma of your broken family tools and tactics to feel whole again, and thrive. And this is a six hour workshop with short. Practical talks and exercises that make healing simple, and we've put together a fantastic team to deliver these workshops.

And we're thrilled to share this with you guys to help you, or maybe the people that you love or lead to heal and grow. And we'll be telling you more about it in the future. Our first one is coming up shortly here. And if you wanna know more about this workshop that we'll be offering and even discuss, perhaps booking an event at your school or church, feel free to contact us at events at resort.

ministry.com again, that's events@restoredministry.com. I'd love to speak with you about it. All right. I'm really excited for this episode because I get to introduce you to my spiritual director, who has played a huge role in my own healing and my own growth. And I'm also excited because one of our goals at ReSTOR is to make healing simple, to make healing simple.

So often healing is made more complicated than it really needs to be. And so we wanna change that. And as I mentioned, one simple tool that you can use to heal. Is spiritual direction, which you'll hear all about in this episode. But first my guest today is Bob Siemens. Bob is the founder and director of Franciscan university's school of spiritual direction.

He was trained in spiritual direction at the Len Terry center for Ignatian spirituality in Denver, Colorado. The program is run by a religious order called the Oblates of the Virgin merit. You may have. Father, Timothy Gallagher. He's his most well known speaker, author and trainer. And Bob graduated from FCAN university with a degree in theology.

Bob's also held various ministry roles, including the director of evangelization at FCAN university. And he is also spoken across the country. Bob is husband de Shannon and the father of their five. Kids. He loves working out gardening, scuba diving, craft beer, and messing with his kids on a personal note Bob's example in the life that he's led have really been inspiring to me.

He's worked so hard to reverse the cycle, especially as a dad. And he's an amazing father. And what, what I've learned from him really is that I can reverse the cycle two in my own life. And that's absolutely true for. As well. So I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation and to learn from Bob.

So let's dive in

Bob. Welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Thank you, Joey. It's good to be here. I've wanted to do this for a long time. Uh, and I wanna get into spiritual direction talking about that, how it's helped you, how it's helped me. But before we get to that, I wanna start with your story. So like, so many people listening, you, you come from a broken family.

And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated in divorce? Yeah, well, um, growing up, my parents separated several times, so that question is kind of a little nebulous. Um, Yeah. From the time I, some of my earliest memories was my dad being kicked out of the house, um, because of having affairs being gone for weeks on end.

Um, so. I would have to say probably the first time my dad and mom separated was when I was probably about four, five years old. And then, uh, it just kind of continued on and then, uh, they separated. When I was about 18 and my dad moved to another state with my brother and my mom stayed in the state that I grew up in, and then they got back together and then they were having affairs.

And basically make a long story short. Um, they separated, which ended up ultimately leading into to their divorce. And, um, I was right around the age of 25 when that happened. Okay. So wow. Very drawn out. I mean, for. Basically 20 years of your life, this kind of back and forth, and then finally getting to that stage of the divorce.

And then of course that brings a whole host of issues. You mentioned a little bit of what happened, uh, as much as you're comfortable sharing, uh, yeah. What, any details that you would add to what you've already said? Um, yeah, details. Hmm. I guess. For myself, um, from the very, very, very young age, I had this conflicting feeling inside of me because, um, I, I was religious, um, in particular because of, of my grandmother.

And, uh, she lived a block away. I would spend majority of my weekends, uh, growing up, uh, Friday, Saturday. With my grandparents and, and, and my grandma in particular, uh, was the one who would take me to church and, and whatnot. But I remember from the youngest age thinking, oh God, like, I don't wanna live like this.

And having guilty feelings of, I wish they would divorce. I, I wish I wish they were divorced. This is even, you know, so at the youngest age, I just knew something wasn't working out and it always left a haunting, uh, feeling inside of me too. Like, am I gonna turn out? Like my dad, uh, is my marriage gonna turn out?

Like my parents' marriage? Um, am I destined to have affairs? Yeah. So. It just brought up, uh, a lot of really conflicting feelings inside of me. Um, and, and again, one in particular was like, how can I be religious? How can I be, uh, good virtuous if I actually want my parents to get a divorce? How, uh, how sick is that?

And then I, I, I kept that to myself too. Uh, kind of like a, a buried, uh, something deep and buried. That I never felt really comfortable sharing with either that I, I actually wanted my parents to get divorce. Yeah. And that's actually not uncommon from everything that I've learned. I know when things at home are so tumultuous, so many of us, we just want it to end and.

Especially because the popularity of divorce in our culture, it seems like a solution to a really messy, bad situation. And I think most of us when we reflect kind of back on it, especially as we get older, we kind of realize like, well, the ideal would've been for, you know, my parents or parents to. Heal their marriage and to bring stability into the home.

Um, now, you know, sometimes that's not possible, but that's what I wish every couple would strive for. So, no, I, I, I think it makes sense like that you feel guilty to that you wanted all that to end and before seem like the, the way to do that. Um, we, we, we hear that often. Yeah, you bring up something interesting there too, about just like, you know, what good person doesn't want, you know, their, their, their family to be restored and to be healed, uh, right outta high school.

Well, maybe let me just back up a moment. BA basically my mindset growing up was like, I want to be everything. That's the opposite of my parents. Um, in particular, my dad. So I strove for that. Didn't drink. Didn't do drugs, didn't have sex, all those good kind of things thinking, oh, I've. Got my stuff together, uh, right outta high school.

I, I did a year of ministry and, um, was very involved, uh, with that found a lot of purpose and a lot of meaning, although, uh, I would definitely say I was doing it to, to be loved. It wasn't, uh, a total pure motive. I was thinking, well, I will prove myself to God. I will prove myself to others that I am a, a good human being.

And so I joined this ministry and, um, one of the, kind of the mantras you would say, maybe of the ministry was like, Hey, the more you share, the more God's gonna work in your life. So for the first time in my life, I had these brothers and sisters around me, uh, who were encouraging me to share my life and.

It, it proved to be too much for them. My dad was physically abusive, so I shared that, um, I shared the affairs, um, et cetera, et cetera. And at the end of the day, um, because these were all fairly young people, uh, no therapists in the crowd there, uh, good hearted people, but it was ill advised for me to just share.

Um, so openly, so vulnerably. Without them having kind of any expertise of what to do with all that sharing. Um, I was signed up to go on a, a second year of this, this mission. And, um, at the end of the year banquet, one of the administrators pulled me aside and said, Hey. You can't go on a second year. You have to go back home and, um, get family counseling, get family counseling, which is something you just brought up, you know, who wouldn't want that, who wouldn't want to see their family succeed.

Um, but the funny thing was here, here. I was a, at that point in time, a 19 year old, uh, kid, um, still trying to make his way in the world. This guy had no clue. Um, I looked at him and, uh, you know, bold his bros. I was like, Do you really think that if I couldn't have gotten my family to therapy before now, I, I wouldn't have, it was just ludicrous.

He, he basically, they basically just didn't know what to do with my baggage. And so they thought, well, you know, a nice approach would be for me to go home and tell my mom and dad, they needed to get therapy. And we'd. Go together to therapy as a family, I ended up telling the guy to F off to be really honest with you.

um, it was a pretty bold move on my part. Uh, obviously I didn't do the ministry ever again, after that, you know, again, there was that sense of guilt too. Here was here was the ministry. I equated with God with doing the right thing and he's telling me to do something that will. I can't do mm-hmm I can't get my mom and dad to therapy.

And that led to, uh, to a lot of confusion too. Like, who do I share this with? Who can hold the tension of my life and what I've been through? Uh, who, yeah. Who can hold the tension of, of who I am and want to be and have been through. And that was a very confusing time. Yeah. Very confusing time. No, absolutely.

I would have felt the, the same way and. There's a few things there that you said that I just wanted to touch on. Um, one is just the idea that maybe it was your job to fix your family. Like that's such a harmful idea. And of course, I'm not saying that we, as people come from broken families, we have no hand in helping our family.

It's not true, but we're certainly not responsible for fixing our parents' marriage. Like that's their job. Sure we can influence them maybe in little ways, but it is much less to do with us than I think, uh, as said is talked about. And somehow for one reason or another, we feel so responsible for maybe helping them in fixing their marriage.

But that, that's just a really harmful idea. So even the fact that someone else was telling you, like, Hey, go fix your family and then come back. It's like, well, uh, that might not happen. And nor. My role. So I think it is wise of you to kind of shoot that down. The, the second point I just wanted to make was you were just so alone.

And so you were left on your own to deal with life and left on your own to, and we've talked about this before, but it's just so often people like us just feel like, okay, it's me against the world. Nobody's got my back. Uh, I have to figure this out myself. And so I bet that situation where those people who you're confiding.

They didn't know how to handle what you were saying. I bet that made you feel even more alone. Yeah. Yeah. It was a strange feeling of, uh, actually Hm. I felt very empowered in that moment, because like I told you, I told the guy to F off. And I think that was the first time in my life. I actually stood up for myself and was like, you know, this guy was older than I was, but I could see how ludicrous it was that he would tell me to go and get them help when at the end of the day, I mean, my goodness, the only person we can actually help in, in, in this, I I've come to believe in this world as our.

Period. Uh, we can do little things for other people, but the only person we can really help is ourselves. And we typically do a pretty crummy job of that anyway. So why should we not saying that we shouldn't be there for other people? That's not what I'm saying, but it was an empowering moment for me, but the loneliness came afterwards.

Uh, the loneliness came when I went back home and, uh, was with my mom. My dad had been, was gone by that point in time. And I just remember feeling. So incredibly alone, uh, to the point actually, where I, I became extremely suicidal. Um, it was the first time I actually got therapy myself was because I was driving.

I had contemplated, uh, committing suicide, uh, while at work. and I was driving home, um, after work and, and thought something's gotta change. And if it wasn't for, uh, this little counseling place that had this Jesus fish on their, their little advertisement board outside the place, uh, I probably. Well, I may have committed suicide.

I, I don't know, but I pulled in there unannounced and said, I need to talk to somebody. And that was my first time with a therapist was a, a, a gentleman, um, who was very kind and very loving and very supportive and began to help me make sense out of myself. Um, with all that I had been through. He began to give me words to things that I had never had words to before and to, uh, really help me, um, to understand that the way I was feeling was not the feelings of a crazy person, but my feelings were normal for what I had been through.

And that was. Very refreshing the first time I began to not feel so alone in my mind, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And it, I think often that is overlooked. Like just hearing that you're not crazy, like yeah. Actually given what you've been through, this is an appropriate response. It's so freeing.

It's extremely faint. And I know I felt the same way. I know we hear that feedback a lot. When people listen to this podcast or work with our ministry in any capacity, it's like, wow, that's no one, no one said that to me before. And so it's amazing that you, you know, at least had that at that point in your life.

I mean, I bet you wish you would've had it earlier, but. I thank God that it came at that 0.1 tool. Obviously you said that you used to heal and to deal with all this pain and all these problems in your life was counseling. But another tool eventually I became a spiritual direction, both on the receiving and the giving end.

I, I suppose, on. Your healing story was on the receiving end, obviously, but eventually you became a spiritual director. So I'd like to kind of shift gears and talk about that. I'd love to just go and share a story for the next hour, but, um, but I really wanna focus on spiritual direction. So yeah, let's talk about how that in particular helped you to heal and to grow.

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a great, great segue there for me. Um, spiritual direction. Was the ability to have, um, somebody walk alongside of me, not just in a therapeutic role, but, or I'm sorry, the spiritual direction was not therapy at all. This was began to help me make sense out of God, because for the longest time for me, although I had a great love and, and, and respect for God.

I didn't understand him and truth be told, I still wrestle with this. Um, I still wrestle with a thought of how could a good kind loving God really put me in the family that he did. But again, I didn't have the freedom to talk about that. I was scared to talk about that because that's not what a good holy person talks about.

Right. They don't talk about, um, this thought that that God could have screwed. That's that's what I felt. And so I shoved that for the longest time. Um, for me, I mean, even my, my first introduction to, to pornography Joey was from my father. I was 7, 8, 9 years old, and he was pissed at my mom. He threw a Playboy magazine at me, um, said, okay, Hey, it's time for you to grow up and become a man.

I just to piss my mom off, you know? And, um, that, that, that just, just started me on a journey of, of, uh, confusion of, of lost, trying to fill those wounds. And so even in that place there, I was like, God, really? Like, what the hell? Um, is this how you really treat those who love you? So there were all these things.

And I just couldn't make sense out of them. And, you know, in therapy, typically you're dealing with your own thoughts, your own emotions and stuff like that. But in spiritual direction, there, there began to be a, a, a dealing, not only with my, my thoughts and my feelings and my emotions, but also with the concept of, of who God is of who a good loving God is.

Or could be. And I noticed for the first time in my life, a real shift, a shift from saying why God, why God to, where were you? Where were you when I was, uh, You know, four or five and, and, and, and, and, and my mom told me my dad was having an affair and kicked him outta the house. You know, where, where were you?

Uh, when I'd wake up at night and my parents were throwing dishes at one another and screaming, and then it would be two weeks of complete silence, um, in the house because they weren't talking to one another. Where were you? When my dad threw that Playboy magazine at me? And it was for the first time in spiritual direction that I began to, to, to, to hear him clearly say I was, I was right there in the midst of it all.

Um, I wasn't void. I wasn't just sitting back. I didn't just wind you up to let all these things happen to you. And it was the first time in my life. I actually. It felt like the Lord was crying over me as that little boy who was exposed to all these things. God spoke to me. I never meant that to happen to you.

And that was really freeing. And I don't think that that would've happened on my own. If it wasn't. Through spiritual direction. If it wasn't having somebody sit besides me and, and, and, and companion me there, just walk with me, hang with me and the tension of my life and gave me, um, the freedom to, to let God, um, speak to me clear some of the clutter.

Um, that I had in my life, through my wounds, my brokenness, and through my own free will to be able to hear the voice of God, just a tad bit differently. And I think that's really the gift of spiritual direction, uh, is to be able to weed out. What I would say are three voices that are always worrying for our hearts, ours.

Satans and gods and for whatever reason, cuz I, I can't explain it. Gods always seems to be the, the small quiet voice. And so a lot of times we, we tend to not listen to that voice or listen to that voice last, um, spiritual direction has helped me to listen more, uh, attentively to the small, quiet voice that actually speaks truth, um, compared to the other voices.

Wow, thank you for sharing. So vulnerably, and I'm glad you're bringing this topic up because I think so many people listening right now can relate to, to you. And one of the things that bugs me, and I know it bugs you too, is when, um, you know, religious people kind of skip over this. It's the same, like, well, God knows best, God knows best.

It's like, well, this is a deep question that deserves an answer that deserves wrestling with. And there is an answer I'm convinced of that, but. It's not something you should just skip over. And if you know someone listening right now, if you've totally rejected, God, uh, this is something you need to wrestle with.

Like you owe it to yourself to at least give this some thought and just to talk to God, even if you're angry, like let him have your anger. He knows what you're feeling. Anyway. Give it to him, show him. And for those of you, who've maybe. Lived very pious devout lives. Uh, maybe you've never gone here and it might seem kind of scary to you and I get that, but in, in really in order to heal and grow and have a, a better relationship with God, you need to dig into this.

And that's where obviously having the help of a spiritual doctor is so helpful, which we're gonna get into a little bit more. Yeah, I think it is important to say that, like, we need to go to these dark places. We can't just kind of put on this mask, put on this facade and be like, God knows best we're good.

And you know, all that dark stuff that you, you had been through, which is just so, uh, traumatic that needs to be talked about. Yeah, absolutely. I, I, yeah, I really like what you said there about, God's not afraid of our darkness, you know, we are, and, uh, I think that's beautiful. And even just your comment there about maybe, you know, listeners who have rejected God, Hey, Bravo to you that might even sound scandalous, but man, does it ever make sense?

Like it makes sense why people would reject God when they've gone through some of the things that they have gone through. And I think. To me, the rejection of God in that aspect is, is, is actually just a protection. I don't want one more person in my life. Who's actually gonna let me down. So I will reject this individual.

I will reject this person that could indicate. Life, but is really confusing. And again, I think that's another beautiful thing in spiritual direction is, is, um, because you even addressed the real pious listeners who I, I think in some ways have really rejected God or, uh, yeah, rejected God in some ways too, because we cover up actually relationship with God with, with pie.

So there's a certain rejection of, of God in, in, in saying you're actually really not the God that I thought you were gonna be. Um, but I'm not gonna say that I'm gonna ignore that because the Pius, the good thing to do. And I would say that that was me for the longest time, uh, was to ignore all that, because this, this, this doesn't reconcile with a good kind loving God.

But we have to wrestle with it. It's like Jacob wrestling with the angel. We have to wrestle cuz if not, the only thing that's really left is our, is our own just self perseverance. And that, that can again be extremely lonely, always having to take care of ourselves, thinking nobody has got our back.

Nobody really wants our good, um, we're the only ones that can do that and facilitate that and be. So I think you bring up some really good things there. Joey. Really good. Yeah. Likewise. And I'm glad we're kind of diving into this. And one of the things I think's true for everyone is that we have this distorted image of God.

We don't really know often what, who God truly is. And we kind of project our image of him, especially because of what we experienced with our parents. And I know you and I have talked about this in the past, but. I think for those of us who come from broken families, it's like extra true. It's even more distorted.

And so one of the benefits of spiritual direction for me working with you in particular and spiritual duction or spiritual directors I had before you was, UNDSS sorting that image of gotten, trying to see him for who he truly is. And it's still something I'm working on. I've made a lot of ground. Yeah, I, I think that's one of the huge benefits, but I also wanna go back to something you said before that sometimes, you know, it seems like the only way that God communicates is in just a small, gentle, quiet voice, which is kind of frustrating.

it'll be nice if it was more obvious. And, uh, and it reminds me of what CS Lewis said, you correct me if I get this quote wrong, but he said something along on the lines of, in me, Christianity, he said that, you know, God, what is it? He whispers us in our joys. He speaks to us in our conscience and he screams at us in our pain.

Yeah. And I think he says like pain is God's megaphone to Browe a sleeping world, something like that. And, uh, and I, I think man, that, that's such a difficult conversation though, cuz so often we want God to be one way and he's just not. And uh, and that could lead to a lot of frustration, but I do, like you said, have a lot of respect for people who aren't on the fence.

Like they're running in one of the directions. They're either totally rejecting God, which I know a son's kind of scandalous or they're, you know, running after 'em and like trying to wrestle with these things, but the people in the middle. You know, it just kind of, it seems like they get stuck there. And so, um, so I think there is something to be said for people who, you know, are digging into this, either projecting him or, or going after.

Yeah. You know, you bring up something really beautiful about CS Lewis too. And it's so touching to me, if, if for the listeners who, who maybe don't know his life story, he said those beautiful little platitudes about God and about God's voice and. Before he actually, uh, entered into a relationship with his wife joy and, um, again for listeners who maybe don't know it was Joy's, um, dying that caused him to actually have a crisis in faith himself.

And, and, and to really say, Am I actually going to believe these words that I said that, that, that pain really does awaken us, um, to God or, or was it just a nice platitude? I was saying to help, you know, help people just make sense out of their pain, but yet. I haven't lived through it myself. And, um, it's just a really beautiful moment for me too, in, in just realizing that, you know, again, I think you touch upon something else.

How often do we just try to prove to God that we're worthy of love? We, and, and I think through our woundedness, our brokenness, our, our, our, our, yes, through all that we've lived through, um, especially with, uh, divorced, uh, parents and, and, and traumatic experiences and whatnot, that, that, uh, in some ways deep inside of us were constantly saying, I have to prove to God that I'm worth his love because obviously somewhere failed.

And he can't just love me because if he did, he, he wanted to put me in a family like this. And one of the truths that I've, that I am coming to, I shouldn't say that I've come to, but that I'm coming to slowly is that God loves without a, because he doesn't love me because I had good parents or bad parents, or because I was physically abused as a child.

Or not, God loves me, period, but that's something that is super hard. Um, especially through people for people who come through so much adversity, who've experienced so much pain that there's this almost this reward system that we want to set up. to where I I'll earn. God's love. I'll show him that I'm good.

I'll show him or those around me. Maybe your spouse, that I'm not like my mother or I'm not like my father, but in the end it just continues to leave us wanting. But to just sit in that place that God loves me without Acus, he just loves me period. There's something very freeing about that. And that's another one of those places where I think spiritual direction just helps so much to help us understand our image of, of self and our, our image of God.

Uh, the good, the bad, and the ugly of all of it. Um, to come to a place of just understanding who God is. Who I am for God. Mm-hmm, ultimately for me as a spiritual director, that's the first place I go when somebody first comes and sits down with me, tell me, you know, if I was interviewing Jesus Christ on my couch right now.

And I said, you know, Jesus, tell me about who is Joey to you? Joey, what would you say if I were to say, Joey, who is God to you and or Jesus Christ. And he's sitting right here in this room now, what would you say. I always think that's such a beautiful moment of, of, uh, true understanding and clearing away the clutter of who we make God out to be or who we make ourselves out to be.

And then there's this certain place where all the facades just begin to fall between God and us. We are who we are, or as God says, I am who I. wow. A lot to think about a lot to chew on, uh, just in that little bit there. And, you know, we we've mentioned a few benefits of spiritual direction. Is there anything that you would add to kinda what we've already said?

Like something might be thinking like why, why would I go to spiritual direction? But what are those benefits? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I would say the first, um, he's just the, the accompaniment, um, to have somebody walking, uh, with you in the messiness of life. I know that it's just been, uh, something just very, very beautiful for me to have somebody know me and be able to walk with me and the tension of, uh, my, you know, becoming better.

Uh, and, and, and understanding God better to just sit with a trusted individual. Somebody who holds things confidentially, who is non-judgmental. Who can be, um, maybe a spiritual or a spiritual father or a spiritual mother, and I'm not saying replace or make up for, for what our parents have lacked. But that they can just show us, they can just show us love.

Um, sometimes I know when spiritual direct my spiritual direction session is over with my spiritual direction director. All I wanna do is just sit there. I wanna stay there. Um, I kind of feel like the, the, the woman, uh, washing the Lord's feet or, or, uh, you know, Just that sense of like, I just wanna stay at your feet.

I, I can resonate with, uh, Peter, John and James, when they're on the mountain in the transfiguration. And they say, Hey, I let's build some tents and stay here. And I, I, I think that I get that feeling with my spiritual director that I'm held in such high esteem. Um, that I'm, that I'm loved for, for who I am, that I don't have to prove anything.

And there's such freedom there. Um, there's freedom just to be me. Um, there's freedom that God can just be who he is. And, uh, I love that freedom. I love that freedom. One of the biggest benefits for me, um, again, working with you in other spiritual directors I've had, but especially with you, is that just the loving, the affirmation that you receive?

And like you said, so often in our lives, we're deprived of that. And so it's just so freeing to. You know, in a way receive, God's love through your spiritual director, through someone who's there to, to guide you in your spiritual life. And I know in some situations even can become more of like a just life mentorship, which I think is, is so useful as well.

Uh, as we're talking, I'm realizing that it'd probably be helpful for everyone, uh, to kind of define spiritual direction because you know, maybe this is the first time they're hearing it. Uh, so yeah. What would you say to someone who maybe has never really heard of this term spiritual direction? Uh, what exactly.

That's a really good question. What I would like to say, uh, about spiritual direction is that it's, it's a heart encountering a heart. And if you have a really good spiritual director, it's not the directee encountering the director's heart. It's the directee encountering the heart of God. And for me, that would sum it up.

That even though I wanna spend time with my director, I want to like, okay, you know, maybe stay at his feet because I feel loved and affirmed. It's not actually his love or affirmation. I mean, he's a conduit of God's love and affirmation. Yes. I feel it through him. So I have deep respect and love and admiration for him.

But for me, the director is the one who just opens up a door and maybe, maybe it's. Pushing it open just a little bit at first or helping the director. You do that. And sometimes maybe it's just kicking it down. to allow the Direct's heart to finally speak to God again for me, you know, I'll go back to that example of, for so many years of my life, I wrestled with this deep dark, in my opinion, dirty secret of saying God, why.

why, why this, why that? And I was so afraid to be honest with anybody about that, because I had so much anger towards God mm-hmm and it was there finally, where my director was like, Hey, let's kick that door down together. You don't need to worry about saying why. And then he offered me the opportunity, this perspective of maybe changing that.

Why word to, to where. And that was like, that was a floodgate for me. That was healing for me. That was me encountering the heart of God in all of its purity that I longed for all of my life. But I don't think I would've been able to do without a spiritual director. So spiritual direction for me is actually the director getting out of the way of God.

But being a conduit for God being, and having and helping a direct D open a door for God to come in for a heart to speak to a heart. Um, for me, the imagery in scripture is the prodigal son. The father is waiting there for him. The father is seeking him out. The prodigal son comes home. The father doesn't even hesitate.

He embraces him. He doesn't say, Hey, let's first clear the air, nothing. He simply embraces and allow, allows the sun to come back period. And there's something beautiful about that. So that's a, that's just a really beautiful imagery there. One way I've heard you talk about spiritual direction too, is the spiritual lecture is somewhat of an interpreter.

They help you kind of discern God's plan for your life, kind of what God's communicating to you. Uh, but also kind of like you said, poking at those maybe sensitive parts of, of your soul to encourage you to kind of dive into that, to dive in. And it's almost in a way. It's like a doctor for they're like a doctor for the soul.

It's like, okay, you, you know, have some issue here. Let's, let's work on it. Let's heal that. Let's bring that to God. Um, who's the ultimate physician. So I, I know I've found that particularly helpful because so often we're not equipped or maybe not. Brave enough, if that's the right way of saying it to go there on our own, we really need someone to walk with us, especially someone who's trained.

And so I wanna, I wanted to get into kind of training and talk about that for a second. But on the practical side of spiritual reduction, I wanted to mention a few things and of course, love to hear a, you would add anything to it, but typically spiritual reduction looks like, you know, an hour long meeting.

Um, what typically once a month, With your spiritual director and, uh, you know, it can begin with the time of prayer. It can end with the time of prayer and that's just a conversation and, you know, questions are asked and, uh, things are discussed and so on. Um, is there anything you would add on like the practical side of someone who's like, I don't know how this works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very much. So, first off, just one point of clarification that I just wanna say there, you, you kind of talked about that doctor, doctor, physician kind of thing with spiritual direction. One thing I do want to caution people about though, because. A lot of times we can, we can project this onto a spiritual director is that they're gonna diagnose us.

They're gonna look at us and oh, yep. Here's this issue that you need to work on in prayer with God, here's this issue? Here's this a spiritual director should never diagnose you. Because at the end of the day, there, there is, there is no, uh, there's no set plan because each person that, that, that comes to spiritual direction is, is unique and, and, and beautiful.

It's just a journey or in many ways, I like to call it a dance. Um, that might be a little too intimate for people and that's understandable, but I, I find it this beautiful dance where a director is dancing with their directee. Um, but the directee is always the one who is leading because. That leading just points and goes, goes back to God.

I, so I think that's very, very important to, to make sure that your director is never diagnosing you and then saying, you need to do this that's therapy, or that is like a physician who says you have this health problem and you need to take this medication again. The director. Um, approaches to open up a door, uh, to help that individual listen to the voice of God, to ignore shut down, close off Satan's voice that wants to tell us that we're no good, uh, that, that, that, uh, that we deserve these things, et cetera.

And probably the majority of the time to close down our own voices too. Cuz we can tend to be our own worst enemies too. So, so that's one thing there. Um, I would also just say with the practicals, you know, uh, although there's, there's a se there's kind of a, um, with the word spiritual director, it makes, it sounds like the director is going to direct you and tell you this and tell you that the approach of, of, of.

Uh, spiritual director direction that I espouses is, is one of a called a contemplative evocative. So I to ask extremely open ended questions that that gets the individual to do some real soul searching. Um, and why. So that there's a greater self-awareness, but not just for self-awareness, because self-awareness for self-awareness sake, doesn't really lead us a whole, a long ways.

It's always so that it leads to a greater understanding. And then from that, Self-awareness and that understanding to a greater action that we can actually have action in our, in our spiritual lives. Um, you know, and I'm sure this resonates with many of your listeners right there who have gone through even kind of therapeutic healing.

Uh, nothing is worse than going to a, uh, a therapist and, and all it is is, is talk therapy. With, with no real, uh, maybe, shall we say some understanding now, sometimes there's things that happen to us that are completely and totally out of our understanding, you know, tragedies in our lives. There's really no understanding.

That's that point that I was saying earlier about why God, why, but instead of saying where, and then that leads us to that place of action. When we can finally start to be empowered. To, uh, to take control of the things in our lives that we want to take control of, uh, to realize, um, there are certain things that are just out of our control.

And I think a spiritual director does that in the spiritual life as well, creates a place of self-awareness that leads to a greater understanding that helps individual take steps, uh, in action to become, shall we say the best version of themselves or the holiest person that they can. I'm glad you clarified that maybe the doctor analogy isn't quite appropriate for spiritual reduction.

And, uh, that makes sense what you said that one of the ways that I say it is the spiritual director is not a spiritual commander. They're not there to tell you kind of what to do or what God's telling you to do. And so, uh, thanks for clarifying that, uh, one thing that is so important when you're looking for a spiritual director, Is to find someone who's trained in spiritual direction.

You don't just want anyone directing you. So a few questions for you, one, uh, who trained you and, uh, why, why is that important to find someone who's trained in spiritual direction? Yeah, that's a great question. So first off, um, I was trained by the Oates of the version, Mary in Denver, Colorado at the land Terry center.

Great, great place. Um, and they trained me in this method called the contemplative evocative method. Uh, which really changed my life. The reason why it's so important to have somebody who's trained is because we would never want to actually go to a therapist unless they were trained. Why would we entrust somebody with our spiritual lives unless they knew what they were doing?

Uh, we can have all kinds of good intentions, but at the end of the day, uh, especially a spiritual director is entrusted with a. And the intricacies of that soul and the wrestling of that soul with themselves as well as with God. And that has to be treated with as sacred ground. Um, in many ways, you know, I just think of those, you know, would take off their shoes before they entered into the temple.

And, you know, what would our churches look like? Actually, if we did that kind of thing nowadays with, with taking off our feet, as we entered into holy ground, because we knew it was holy ground. In, in many ways, I envision that when I enter into spiritual direction with an individual that I need to take off my shoes, not them, but me because I am entering into holy ground, which is them and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

And you know, when somebody comes to that vulnerably, we, we need to have people who are trained to handle that kind of vulnerability and not exploit it. Now. So many of your listeners have already been through. Why would we want to put them through anything more by not going to somebody who's trained, who just kind of says, you know, Hey, you know, suck it up, buttercup.

Um, get over your, your, your P PTSD, your whatever it may be, because they just don't know. So I would say having somebody who can really practice that evocative method, who can be non-judgemental and this is what good spiritual direction training programs do. They equip a director to handle the intricacies of the human heart.

To companion them to let them know that they're not alone, but that they are, uh, an individual who is always pointing to God. And that sometimes that directee might want to look at the director more because of that again, that love and that affirmation we were talking about before. But a trained director will always point them back to God because they know in the end, it's never about them.

They're on the exact same journey as their directee they're they're alongside of them. They're not in front. They're not behind they're right alongside just trying to get to heaven. And again, I think that's why it's so important to have a training director who has that humility, who has that training, who has that understanding, uh, who can walk with an individual in that way?

That's helpful. And I know we have some people listening who especially wanna help the people that we're trying to help at restored people who come from broken families and becoming a spiritual director is one way you can do that. And thankfully you have a program at FCAN and university that you, uh, where you train spiritual director.

So tell us a little bit about that. If someone were to, uh, go through. What, what does that look like? What's good to know about your program. Yeah. Um, thank you for asking about that. For many of the listeners may know who Rick Warren is. He was, uh, was, or maybe still is a pastor at Saddleback mountain church in, in the orange county, LA area.

Uh, he has this beautiful quote. He says, you know, you know, um, people are gonna. Um, find some of their greatest healing, uh, through your root brokenness and woundedness. And, um, I would have to honestly say that the spiritual direction program here at Franciscan started from that from my brokenness and my woundedness and, and God pointing that out through me, going through, uh, spiritual direction training and being, uh, being directed and.

My director basically handling the wounds of my heart and saying, Hey. Go and help other people heal now through your wounds. And, um, the program here, uh, was founded about four years ago to train people in a three year process, uh, to actually in many ways, use their own brokenness and woundedness to go out and heal the world to bring people closer to Christ.

So, um, our program. Uh, we have two different options. Uh, the most popular is, is a two week intensive for three summers. Um, so we have our first one coming up or, uh, a new one coming up May 22nd to June 4th. And that'll commence, uh, right around that same time for the next three years. And at the end of it, um, an individual could expect to be trained.

One is a spiritual director and two to lead somebody through the exercises of S Ignatius of loyal. Uh, but in particular, what they could expect by going through our program is that they would be trained to be, uh, a director who could lead somebody in the contemplative evocative method, uh, which is basically.

Opening up space for God to get into an individual's life. We've had two graduating classes. It's been very successful. We'll have a third graduating class coming up, uh, this summer. And I really feel like it's the Lord raising up an army of people to just go walk in and with individuals to, to someday, uh, get to heaven.

God. so good. Uh, I'm glad that you're doing this. There's such a need and I applaud the work that you guys are doing there at Franciscan university. If someone wants to sign up or connect with you, how do they do that? Yeah. Great. Um, so one they can, uh, email me, uh, directly, uh, R Siemens, franciscan.edu. It's R S I E M E N s@franciscan.edu.

Uh, you can call me seven four zero two eight three. 6, 2 77. I sound like an infomercial now. or you can just, uh, Google, uh, Franciscan university school of spiritual direction. And there's a lot more information on there as well. Um, with the application general info, any, anything from there, uh, would love to talk to anybody who's interested in, in becoming a spiritual.

Thank you so much, Bob. And, uh, one thing I, I wanted to go back to for a second here is TIUs we hardly talked about him, but so much of this work and Spiritus reduction in general is based on this Spanish Saint. Yeah. Well maybe another time we can dive into that a little bit more, but, um, yeah, for any of you wondering it's it has a rich history and tradition and it's, uh, very, very beautiful.

And the, uh, what Bob was saying for the spiritual exercises, it's, uh, what a month long or so retreat that you would walk through and. It's very beautiful and very, um, it's such an opportunity to grow and to heal too. And so a lot of good stuff there. We don't have time to get into that as much, but Bob, I just wanted to.

Yeah. Thank you again for coming on the show for sharing what you're doing and sharing your story too. Thank you for. Being so vulnerable. I know I learned a lot as I always do from you. And I know the people listening are better for it as well. In closing out, I wanna just give you the final word. What would you say to, you know, a person listening right now who feels very broken?

Uh, especially because of their parents' broken marriage, their family falling apart, kind of going through all that trauma. What encouragement, what advice would you give to, to someone like that? Who just feel stuck and broken? Yeah, you're not alone. You're not alone. And your brokenness. Is not, uh, you're not so broken that you have no help.

Um, that was a lie that I, I believe for so long was that I was so broken. I was so dysfunctional. Um, I was so wounded that I could never truly be loved for exactly who I am, which is a lie. Um, and I think you, Joey and, and, and the ministry restored is doing so much to help people, uh, come to that. To know that they're not alone, their story is their story, but it can be shared with others finally, and that they can find peace.

They can find healing. Joy and hope and make sense in some ways out of their, their sufferings, their deep, deep sufferings. So my encouragement is to hang in there. Uh, you're not alone. Find somebody clinging to somebody, uh, in, in, in some of this trusted individuals, cuz they can help.

I wanna leave you guys with a question and that. What's one thing that's holding you back from a relationship with God. What's one thing that's holding you back from a relationship with God. And what can you do to find answers to that obstacle? That's my challenge for you. Give that some thought, chew on that a little bit, and then come up with an answer, try to find an answer.

And then most importantly, take action. If you're looking for a counselor or a spiritual director, uh, we wanna help you. We're building a network of spiritual directors and counselors that we trust and we recommend. And so you can tap into that network. And some of the benefits of tapping into the network that we're building is it's gonna save you lots of time and effort in searching for a counselor or for.

A spiritual director. We'll also connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need to heal. So you can feel hold again. And then again, like I mentioned, these are people that we vetted that we trust that we recommend. So if you wanna join the wait list for counselor or spiritual director, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching.

Again, ReSTOR ministry ministry is singular. Dot com slash coaching. Just fill out the form of that page and then we'll connect you with a counselor and, or a spiritual director, whatever you request again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 65.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who really is struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

How to Get Over Someone

3 minute read.

You know what’s fun?

Breakups.

You know why?

Because even after the pain of ending a meaningful relationship subsides, the memories you made, the experiences you shared, the intimacy you had . . . still linger for a while.

Wait. Did I say fun?

Terrible. I meant terrible.

There’s simply no way around the fact that breakups are incredibly painful, especially since the relationship can’t be undone. You can’t forget the person overnight; the feelings you have for them don’t disappear into thin air.

The people we meet, the people we get to know, and most especially the people we love, change our lives.

We did love them. We are different because of that—and often, even if the relationship itself was a fiasco, we are typically better off because of it. We grew, we learned, we loved.

Having said all of that, here are some things that have helped me get over an ex and heal from a breakup.

TRY NEW THINGS

Kickboxing, swimming, tennis, a new bar or restaurant, a different show, a new recipe, writing, drawing, a haircut . . . Whether it’s something you’ve never tried before or something you just haven’t done in a while, it helps to bring some freshness into your life and switch gears. In any case, it is always healthy to have something that is “yours,” an outlet that is independent of anyone else.

TRAVEL

It doesn’t have to be across the world or even across the country. Shortly after the breakup, I visited some friends who lived a couple of hours away and members of my family who also were somewhat close by. If you can go somewhere you’ve never been before, even better. Nothing quite gets you out of your head and provides you with a breath of fresh air like a new place. The world is big; sometimes we need to be reminded of that.

RE-EVALUATE YOUR LIFE

This may sound dramatic, but really it’s just taking stock of where you are and where you want to go. A breakup may throw your life plan for a loop, so now is a good time to consider how you’re doing in regard to the kind of person you want to be and what you would like to accomplish in the near and distant future. This could be as simple as taking some time to write down one hundred things you want to accomplish over the course of your life and picking one to start on today. You could divide your life into various areas—physical, emotional, financial, spiritual—and set goals in each of these areas. You could recall your greatest accomplishments so far this year and take a moment to feel grateful and proud.

This kind of process reminds you that, while you cannot control other people, you do have a say in the way you live your life and the kind of person you become. A broken heart is a fresh start, an opportunity to look difficulty in the eye and come out a stronger person.

GET PERSPECTIVE

This isn’t the worst thing that’s ever happened to a person. We all experience pain and difficulty in our lives. We may not understand it (and much less desire it), but it is inevitable and often helps us become more compassionate people. Think of all those before you who have experienced their own share of heartbreak, some in rather horrid ways. Whether you find yourself at the end of a relationship, in a broken marriage, or worse (dealing with war, death, poverty), sometimes it helps to remember that the human spirit is incredibly resilient. If we are suffering, we’re in good company, and our sufferings may not be quite as extreme as we originally thought or felt.

BE PATIENT

It may take longer than you expect to stop thinking about him or her often, to stop wondering if they’ll ever change their mind, to stop wishing things had gone differently. This doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It is an indication of the depth with which you loved and how much you cared for the person. The fact that you loved well and deeply means that you have the capacity to love well and deeply. What a great gift to be able to offer the world.

Through it all, remember this: more than anything, getting over someone requires acceptance—accepting that they are no longer yours, accepting that they really weren’t yours to begin with, and accepting that you will find peace and healing. People don’t belong to us the way a car or a house does. They may walk with us for a while—sometimes even for the rest of our lives—but often it is only for a certain amount of time. After that, we take a deep breath, wish them the best, and let them go.

Breakups are brutal, they really are. I can’t tell you exactly how long it will take you to get over an ex, or even to start feeling okay again. But I can tell you that you will and that this pain is evidence that you loved—the most important thing you’ll ever do.

#064: Your Broken Family and Mistakes Don’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Maggie Kim

One night, Maggie’s mother left her family without any explanation. Naturally, Maggie felt extremely abandoned. Following that night and her parents’ divorce, she hated her mom. All the pain led her to cope by using drugs, drinking, and sex.

Thankfully, her story transformed. In this episode, you’ll hear:

• How all that trauma led her to attempt killing herself

• How she opened up to her mom and dad about the way their broken marriage and divorce affected her

• Why she feared marriage, but after overcoming that fear, she now has a beautiful marriage and four awesome kids

Book a Restored speaking engagement

Buy Blessed Is She’s beautiful products

Share your story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Maggie Kim

  • myee49@gmail.com

  • Saint Quotes for Broken Families

  • Instagram

  • Paul J. Kim Music

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When Maggie was only in middle school, her parents separated and divorced and she didn't know how bad things were in her parents' marriage until they started sleeping in separate rooms. Eventually she learned that the relationship had turned abusive, but before she really knew what was going on, her mom left one night without any explanation, which obviously made Maggie feel super abandoned that led her to hitting her mom to struggling more in her relationship with her dad.

And so many other struggles. Now, thankfully her story doesn't end there in this episode, you'll hear how at such a young age, she had to choose between living with her mom or her dad. She opens up about what she did to cope with her pain and unhealthy ways like drinking drugs, acting out sexually and stealing.

She even shares how all that trauma led her to such a low point where she attempt. To kill herself. You'll hear what happened in the episode, she talks about the conversation she had about everything that had happened with the divorce with her mom and her dad separately. Some really good lessons in this episode and how to talk to your parents about your broken family and how it's affected you.

And finally, she touches on how she really didn't wanna get married. She was afraid of it because of what she experienced in her family. But now she has a really beautiful marriage and four awesome kids. Complete 180. I have so much respect and admiration for Maggie. She's been through so much, really an amazing sword filled with dark times, but also so much hope.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 64. If you're someone who recognizes the pain and problems face by teens and young adults who come from broken families and you wanna help them.

We wanna team up with you. One of the ways that we help those young people from broken families is by offering speaking engagements at your school, church or conference. At this point, we offer three talks. The first one is what I wish someone told me when my parents divorce, how to cope, heal. And build a divorce proof marriage or help someone else.

And this talk is primarily for students, teenagers and young adults who come for broken families, but anyone who loves or leads them will also learn a lot. And in this particular talk, we cover stories and studies on how our broken families and especially our parents' divorce affects people like us. We teach the young people, coping tactics to help them deal with their pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, we give them evidence based healing, tips, and resources to help them feel whole again. And then we offer practical strategies to build healthy relationships and even a great future marriage. That's the first talk. What I wish someone told me when my parents divorce, the second talk is seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research to the church and time tested couples.

This talk is also for students, teenagers young. It also come from broken families and in it, we cover seven really practical tips on how to build a beautiful marriage. It's not just for people who are married or even close to getting married, but really anyone who wants to get married one day, who, who might want to get married one day, all the content is based on psychological research lessons from beautiful couples and the Catholic church is teaching on marriage.

And we can also offer a secular version as well, or even an evangelical version. If you're. Not Catholic one young woman who is actually on newly wed. She heard this particular talk and she actually listened to it three times in a very short period of time because she found it so helpful. Again, this talk is seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage.

And the final talk is 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separated or divorced practical tactics for anyone who loves or leads teens and young adults from broken families. And this suck is for anyone who loves or leads young people from broken families, whether you're a teacher school administration, pastor youth minister, a family friend, significant other.

In this talk, we offer insights into how a broken family and especially divorce affects that person that you love or lead. We offer some practical things that you can do to help them cope, heal, and grow into the person they were meant to be. And then we also give resources, you can offer them so they feel less alone and ultimately can heal and grow.

And we'll be offering more talks in the future as well. Some of our clients so far have been Franciscan university of Steubenville, Avi, Maria university focused the fellowship of Catholic university students. We've spoken for the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the diocese of San Diego.

Now, as you can tell so far, speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics. We serve anyone who wants us. And so if you're interested in scheduling a live or virtual talk, we'd love to hear from you how just go to ReSTOR. Dot com slash speaking again, restored ministry.com/speaking.

You can view our talks on that page and then you can request pricing, or if you're ready, you can book an event by the way, our pricing is a fraction of the cost of what most speakers charge. And so we love to work with you. You will not be disappointed again. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, to learn more and book a talk today.

My guest today is Maggie. Kim. Maggie is a wife and mother to four kiddos. She became a Catholic convert in 2013 after discovering her love for the Eucharist sacred tradition and the powerful intercessory prayers of the saints as a registered nurse, she has a passion for fertility awareness. The pro-life movement and anything else related to mothers and babies in her free time, she likes to read thriller novels, eat desserts and watch movies with a strong cup of coffee.

Her husband, Paul is a Catholic speaker, so she understands the ups and downs of ministry life, but loves being able to serve in this God-given mission alongside her family. Again, great conversation and amazing story with Maggie Kim,

Maggie, thank you so much for being here. It's great to have you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here before recording. We were kind of talking about how yeah. We just kind of go deep quickly. So if it's okay with you, uh, we'll we'll follow that script. I'd like to know how old were you when your parents separated and divorced?

I. Around. I was in middle school, so I was around 13, I wanna say, uh, when they separated and then they got divorced about a year later when I was 14, 15. Okay. So very formative years, uh, definitely a difficult time. And what, what happened that led up to all that and then of course, through the separation divorce itself?

Yeah, sure. Um, well I think my parents had a very difficult marriage from the very beginning, even before my sister and I were born. They had issues all throughout their marriage. Um, my dad, you know, he was verbally and emotionally abusive. We didn't really see that very often. We would kind of get glimpses of it here and there as kids.

But, um, it was way worse with my mom, you know, they would fight, but it was usually behind like closed doors and we weren't really aware of what was going on. I didn't even really understand or. Realized that they had serious issues in their marriage until my mom started sleeping in a separate room. So we had a guest room in the house and she would sleep there.

And, you know, we were kind of just like, that's strange, but, um, right. They never were open about their issues and never really. Like had serious arguments in front of us. And so very suddenly one night my mom is I, I find her packing up her bags, um, she's planning to leave and it was, you know, it was a very traumatic night.

My sister and I, we were, I just remember crying and begging her not to go. Um, and she, like, she couldn't even look at us. She could barely, you know, she couldn't say anything. She just like had a mission to leave . Yeah. And she was, I just remember watching her, like packing up all these suitcases and, you know, my dad was telling my sister and me, like, don't let your mom leave.

Hmm. Like you gotta say anything to keep her here. And, um, so, you know, we're just like begging her not to go. And, you know, eventually she, she packed up her stuff and she left and that was like, so. Jarring for us. Yeah. Um, we were just like, what is going on? Yeah, it was, it was a very difficult night. Like something that I'll never forget.

And then a couple weeks later she came back and then my parents sat us down and we kind of had that discussion, you know, uh, where we have to, like, you know, they're telling us we're, we're getting a divorce. And, um, at that point they wanted us to decide like who we were gonna live with. Um, so at the time we, yeah, at the time, uh, we were living in orange county in, in Southern California.

And my mom had moved to Los Angeles, which was about like a 45 minute or an hour drive away. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, they're like, so are you gonna live with mom or dad? Like you gotta decide. And. At that point or so. So in those two weeks in between my mom leaving and having that family discussion, my dad, like he was really good at manipulating the situation and telling my sister and, and myself that like, mom doesn't care about you.

She, um, she just wants to go and live her life, like, and just kind of filling up, you know, filling our head heads with like all these lies so that we would choose him. And that's exactly what happened. So it was the fact that my mom had left without any explanation. Um, and also the fact that, you know, we were liking, we didn't wanna have to leave our school and our home and all this stuff.

So we decided we were gonna, uh, stay with dad. So that's yeah, that's when things got real for me. yeah. And, you know, we would do, we did the whole thing, like where we would go stay with my mom over the weekend and blah, blah, blah, blah, which I hated, I, I absolutely hated going, you know, like I would go and see her new apartment and she'd have like all this new furniture and all this stuff, and I'm just like, in the corner, like stewing, like you left us and you're living this new life.

And like, you get all these nice new things. And I just, I hated going. I hated her. I remember like one time just straight up saying to her face, like I hate you and I don't ever wanna see you. And at that point, like we had, like, after that, we hadn't spoken for, you know, a really long time. So yeah. Anyways, um, that, that happened.

I, I live with my dad, um, and he got married shortly after, so. Um, I found this out much later on like, as an adult, but, um, my dad had multiple fairs and then, you know, when they were married and he ended up marrying remarrying, the woman that he cheated with. And so he remarried like very quickly after like the divorce was finalized and yeah, at that point, like I just felt so abandoned.

Um, my mom had left, my dad had gotten remarried and was like off living his life with his new wife. And my sister had gone off to college at that point too. So like she, she had just left. So it's like, I just felt like all this abandonment from like all sides, you know? So yeah. I was very, uh, bitter. I was very depressed.

Um, I, I was, I started to rebel like crazy. Like I. I don't know, I was just like anything that I could do to get into trouble I probably did. Or tried at some point, I, it was like, I was constantly like pushing the, the boundary and, and seeing like what I could do, how far I could go before getting caught.

Cause I, I think, you know, in a way, like I was, I was telling myself, like, I'm not gonna get caught because dad doesn't care. Like he, I was living with him and he was doing, you know, he was providing for, for me and everything, doing what he could, but he was so like checked out. He was so like, I don't know, he was just wasn't emotionally.

For me. And so I, I just figured, like he doesn't care if, if I do all these things, um, I started drinking and doing drugs when I was 15, I was stealing, I was, I was addicted to pornography. I was very like sexually promiscuous. Like all these things to see how far I could go before my dad would actually pay attention.

And so I guess in a way, like, I almost wanted to get caught because then that would mean that he was paying enough attention to me to discipline me or, or whatever it is, you know? Um, and so it was, it was just years of that. And at one point I just, I, yeah, I, I, I guess I, I didn't realize how depressed I was until I tried to take my own life or I, I tried to overdose on, on pain medications.

And, um, it was at that point when I was like, I realized I really needed help. . Yeah. So that's the gist of what went down, I guess. Wow. Thank you so much for yeah. Being so vulnerable. I know everyone listening really appreciates it. It's, I'm learning so much, you know, just listening to you and there's so much to say, but wow.

What, what a pass? Like what, what a heavy thing for, uh, you know, young woman, a girl to go through mm-hmm , especially during those years that are just so formative. I was 11 when my parents separated and it's a lot of similarities to, to your story. And pornography was kind of my drug of choice and it makes sense to me that you rebel so much, it just makes sense.

And, you know, you alluded to just kind of all that being a cry for. And absolutely I could totally see that, you know, kind of wanting the love and attention, wanting the opposite of the abandonment that you experienced and, you know, really not getting that until you got to the point of trying to kill yourself.

Yeah. And it, it totally, totally makes sense to me. I think so often in our world, we see these individual struggles that kids have, like, you know, drugs, sex, you know, alcohol, all this stuff, like suicide attempts, everything that you said mm-hmm and we treat them kind of symptomatically individually. It's like, we treat the symptom, but we don't get to the root of it.

Yeah. And, and I think it's such a disservice because yeah. Maybe you could treat the symptom and it be okay for a little while, but if you never get to the root of it, it's very likely that it's gonna come up again. You're gonna fall into some unhealthy way of coping, which is just so common as you know, for people like us.

Right. So. It just makes so much sense to me. And I've found that suffering to, to hear people say like, okay, you weren't weird for kind of doing what you did. Like yeah. We're not saying that it was good behavior. That sin is a good thing. Of course not, but it just makes so much sense. Absolutely. And it's, I think like, as a child, when you are traumatized, because like your whole world shatters, like everything that you thought was secure and stable and love, it's the whole, like the meanings of all that, like it shatters.

And so as a child or as like, even like a young adult, like, you don't know how to deal with that. If nobody is teaching you in a healthy way, like how to cope and, and it's. Especially if, if feelings of abandonment are there, which most likely they are, it's like, you you're crying out for attention, even if it's gonna be negative attention.

And as a mom now, like, it totally makes sense to me because even for my kids who are toddlers, like they're throwing tantrums and I'm like, well, why are they making such a big deal out of this thing? And that's wrong with you? and I mean, like, that's essentially what we're doing. Like, as you know, as like teenagers or young adults, it's like, you're crying out for attention, even if it's negative attention, even though, even if it's gonna get you into trouble.

Yeah. So it's like, you're doing anything you can to know that. You're like someone is paying attention to you and someone loves you enough to say something. Yeah. Uh, psychia or psychiatrist, or I think he was a psychologist, uh, Conrad bars. He said that he believed that most people, uh, weren't suffering from suppressed emotion, which is what Freud basically said.

He said most psychological problems. Ford said most psychological problems came about because people were repressing emotion and common BARR. Um, he was a Catholic psychologist. He said that he doesn't believe that to be the case. That certainly can be true in some cases. But he said, in most cases, people are suffering when he coined as emotional deprivation, meaning we basically have this hole in us.

That's just longing for love, for affirmation, for, to be wanted. And it just doesn't get filled. And so, because that isn't filled in a healthy way, we look to anything that might somewhat satisfied in an unhealthy way. Yeah. And. That I, I think describes so much of our culture, even people who aren't from broken families, but especially those of us who come from broken families.

Cause like you said, it's so foundational and we tend to think when our families fall apart, we go through life with this expectation of everything falling apart. Like what won't fall apart. What can I hold onto? Which I know we're gonna get into marriage, um, in this conversation, which I'm really excited about because, uh, that just rocks a marriage to think that, oh, this probably is gonna fail one day.

And what I've realized in my own marriage, my wife and I have been to counseling. We talk pretty openly about this, but there's always that kind of fear, even if it's a small voice in the back of your head that, well, this isn't gonna last, my spouse is probably gonna leave me or cheat on me or something mm-hmm and that expectation kind of that impacts the way that we act, which.

Aid and bringing about that reality that we fear right. So it's like this I know, right? Yeah. Go for it. It's so ironic. it is. Yeah. Yeah. So you're exactly right. I mean, like in all the relationships that I had following my parents' divorce, it's, it's exactly what happened. It's like, I would, first of all, like I would do anything to cling onto that person.

It's like, It's like, whoever I was with at the time was like my savior, because they were helping me to like, forget all the pain and like, I could finally like get a chance to feel happy. And so I would do anything to keep that person in my life and, and stay in that relationship. But then in moments where it got, got tough.

It's inevitable in any relationship, you're gonna have moments of conflict and, and hardship. And it's like, I, I just, I knew they were gonna leave me. And so like, a lot of it was either like me just being desperate to do whatever it, it, um, takes to keep them in my life or I would suddenly just shut them out because, um, I'm like, well, if you're gonna leave me, I'm gonna beat you to the punch and I'm gonna leave you first, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just like all these defense mechanisms that I just learned to adopt, because that was how I, like, I guess in a way, like I was learning to survive because I, yeah, like you said, it's like deep down, you think everybody's gonna leave you. And so you do what it takes like you do what, what, what it takes to keep that relationship alive, or you do what it takes to protect yourself.

And in a way, like if you shut that person out or if you leave first, it's like, you, you get you protecting. Yourself. Um, so yeah, that, that was really, um, it led to a lot of like toxic, unhealthy relationships, as you can imagine, um, like the codependency and all this stuff. And it was, um, right around when I met my husband, I, you know, like, I think after so many years of like trying to like drink and like do drugs and forget all my issues and numb all the pain, like I knew that wasn't gonna be sustainable.

Like I knew at some point I was gonna like crash and, and in a lot of ways, I, I, I did have moments of like reaching my lowest points and I just, I was so tired of it. Like it was so unfulfilling and so empty and I, I knew I needed something more. And so like, I, right around the time I met my husband, I also started going to therapy.

And man that like, it, it changed my life. I, it was like the first time I could actually acknowledge what had happened and, and like acknowledge the gravity of it. Like, I remember my one, I think maybe it was like my first or second therapy session with the, with like the very first therapist I've ever talked to.

And she was like, let's talk about your childhood, your parents and blah, blah, blah. And I started talking about the, the night that my mom left, you know, just like I did a few minutes ago and I started laughing. It was like the strangest thing, like I was sharing about the night and I started laughing and.

The therapist looks at me. She's like, you know, that's a really interesting reaction to the story you're telling, because you're the story you're telling is very sad and very traumatic. And, um, I just, I find it interesting that you're laughing and I was like, what is wrong with me? Like, I must be going crazy.

um, but it, you know, it's like, again, it's like those defense mechanisms or those coping mechanisms where you're trying to you're so like, You can't like face the, the trauma. And so you, you make light of the situation by laughing about it, right? Like a lot. That's why a lot of like comedians, I, I feel like that they learn how to be funny because they have issues or they have trauma in their life and they learn to like, make light of the situation.

Right. But yeah, so in a way, like that's what I was doing. And, and it was like the first time I like looked at how serious it was and how traumatic it was and how that affected me. So going to therapy was so eyeopening. And then finally, like, I, you know, I met my husband and he was the first man in my life, you know, like in a, in a close relationship where, like I knew he was a good man.

Like, I, I didn't have very good, like positive male figures in my life. At least like, not like close enough to really have like a deep relationship. And so there was just like, I just knew in my heart, when I met my husband, that he was a good man. Um, and that was very healing for me because for a long time, I didn't think that was possible.

Like, I didn't think that men were capable of, you know, being trustworthy or being like loving or, you know what I mean? Like it's just a hundred percent. Yeah. It, it was, um, I was like, wow, like good men are out there. . Yeah, yeah. And no, it, it makes sense. Given what you had been through that you would kind of expect every man to, yeah.

Maybe on the surface they would look good or fine, but behind closed doors, as you learned. They wouldn't be good men. So no, that probably was pretty earth shattering for you, which is beautiful and amazing. And mm-hmm yeah. I want to kind of dive deeper into that. I do wanna kind of close the loop on your relationship with your parents as much as you're comfortable sharing.

Cuz I don't wanna leave people hanging on that. They probably yeah. Right. What happened? So yeah. I'm just curious kind of how has that evolved over the years? And then yeah, I, I have another question, but let me let you answer that first. Okay. Yeah. It took a lot of time to heal a lot of work for sure. And a lot of like self-awareness I think in processing, like what had happened and how it had affected me and then finding the courage to talk to my parents about it.

I think that. Changed our relationship for better or for worse, like with my Mo. So I guess I'll kind of like talk about my mom first. So like I said before, sh you know, we had, I, like, I had so much hate in my heart for her, for leaving us. And, oh, at one point I, I went to go live with her because things at home with my dad were just really difficult.

And so I didn't know where else to go. I just, I seriously like called her up. I was, I think I was like halfway through my senior year in, in high school. And, um, I called her up and I was like, I just, I packed a bag and I have nowhere to go, like, can I come stay with you? And I, I hadn't talked to her in a really long time up until that phone call.

And she was like, of course, like, come over right now. Like, you don't need to explain anything, just come. And so then I started living with her and it was awkward at first because I, you know, we still like hadn't resolved anything, but fi like slowly, little by little, like that door opened up. And as I started going to therapy and kind of processing what had happened, I.

I remember sitting down with her one day and just sharing everything, like everything. I felt everything that she did that hurt me, um, like asking her what happened, like what was going on with you and dad, like what happened in the marriage? And we just had this amazing conversation where she was so open and honest and vulnerable and, you know, like we just had like an opportunity to share and to apologize and forgive each other.

And in that conversation she had even like said, you know, I made mistakes. Like she owned up to her own mistakes too. Wow. And she was aware of how much it hurt me. She was even. Aware of how she had hurt my dad in the marriage. And she expressed that she regretted it and, and I think that conversation was so healing for me and it allowed me to move forward and move forward to forgiveness.

And then, and now we have an amazing relationship. Like she, I, I can't imagine life without her. Like right now we live in two different states and I'm like, and she's planning to move over here. And I'm just so excited to, um, you know, be like 20 minutes away from her now. And so yeah, we have a great relationship and.

What also helped a lot with that was when I became Catholic. I, I converted and became Catholic when I was 23. And, um, I started learning about our blessed mother, mother, Mary, and I, I know not everybody who's listening to. This is Catholic, but I just started learning about her and like growing up, I, I didn't know much about her.

I grew up Protestant and any, like any mention of her was very like negative. And so I was finally starting to like, learn about who. The mother of Jesus was, and kind of like starting to have a relationship with her as well. And I think that really helped a lot of, kind of like those mother wounds that had been left in my heart.

And I mean, that's like a whole nother story, but yeah. So I, I think that allowed me to just find a lot of healing when it comes to my dad. Um, it's kind of a little bit of a different story, you know, like I kind of had that same opportunity to share with my dad, like, just like I did with my mom. I, you know, told him everything that I had experienced and how I had been hurtful and all this stuff.

And it was, there was a very different reaction and I went into it knowing like, not expecting. Him to react in any sort of way. I was just kind of open to like whatever he was gonna say. Um, but he's very good at like, he's very good at blaming other people for, for his mistakes and just kind of, he, I, I think he, he was just very caught off guard by that conversation and he was, he wasn't very willing to kind of own up to it.

And, um, yeah, I don't know. It was just not a great reaction, like, and I was fine with that. Like, I, I just, I went into it knowing like, you know, if he doesn't react the way that I'm hoping to, like, that's okay. It doesn't mean that I have to like hate him, but it certainly affected our relationship. Like it, I'm definitely not as close with him as I would like to be.

I, I mean, he's changed so much, like he's. I know he's a good man and he's, he's changed in so many ways for the better, but, um, I still kind of keep my heart guarded when it comes to him. Um, I don't really, um, we, we, you know, interact maybe like a few times a year we'll call or do like text, um check-ins but, um, nowhere near like the kind of relationship I had with my mom and, and that's okay.

Like, I, I, I think like, as I get older, like I, I'm learning to be more okay with that. So anyways, that that's kind of like, I, I guess that's just kind of how ive ended up. Yeah, no, I mean, that's so beautiful with your mom that you were able to find that resolution and build a beautiful relationship. Yeah.

Like you have right now. And what a man, what a road you've been on and I can relate so much with. Dad, your, your relationship with your dad. It's very similar in my case. And one of the struggles there is exactly what you said, you nailed it. Like he has a really difficult time taking ownership. Yeah. And I love my dad, you know, just like you said, you love both your parents and you know, you don't hate them.

I don't hate my dad. But if I'm honest, that unwillingness to take ownership for the problems that he caused has damaged severely. Oh yeah. His relationship with me and all of my siblings. Yeah. Like I, I could go into that for an hour. It's it's so sad. And so any parents listening? Mm-hmm I know we have parents listening, cuz I know you wanna, you love your kids.

You wanna help your kids. You wanna figure out how to help them through this really difficult time that you're going through. You've been through and you know, just like we just learned from Maggie a second ago, take ownership. take ownership. And I think a lot of people who refuse to take ownership maybe are afraid of.

Turning people off or getting disowned in a way. But I, I honestly think Maggie, like the opposite happens when people take ownership. It's like in my life, when people have taken ownership for the bad things, they've done the way they've hurt me, I just have more respect for them. And it tends to heal the relationship, kinda like you said, with your mom.

And so you can always make excuses parents, but I, I think that it takes a lot of courage to just own up to your portion of what happened. And it doesn't mean you have to say that what the other person did was okay or acceptable. That's, that's not the case, but just take, take ownership of what you contributed to it.

And I don't mean to single out my dad, uh, my mom, you know, in similar ways has had a hard time taking ownership. And so mm-hmm, , it's, um, it's certainly been a struggle, I think, to work through a lot about that. But tho those conversations I think have been really good. So I, I did wanna ask you though, would you advise.

Everyone listening, who, you know, comes from a broken family, like you and me, would you advise that they would have that conversation with their parents? Are there any situations where maybe you wouldn't advise. That's a good question. I would hope that for most people they would have an opportunity to have that conversation with their parents.

I just, I think it is so it's so like an important aspect of the healing process to be able to like share and be vulnerable and honest with the people who have hurt you and, and vice versa. Like, like you were saying, they. Taking ownership of your mistakes is, is so essential because it, it allows that that relationship to go deeper because you're, you're making a decision at that point to be vulnerable.

And when you're vulnerable that opens the door to like intimacy and a deeper relationship. And so, and so when they're, when they choose not to do that, it it's very clear, like where they want the relationship to stay. And so I, I would, I hope, and I pray that for listeners who, you know, who are dealing with their parents' divorce, like that, they get to have an opportunity to do that.

There may be situations where that is not healthy. Like if their parents are extremely toxic and, and abusive, or I, I don't know, like if. If it wouldn't, if it would lead to more harm to have that conversation, maybe like, it wouldn't be a good idea, but I think generally speaking for most cases, I think it, I think it would be a, a great place to start for healing.

I agree with that. And I, I think you deserve to know what happened too. It's always a tricky balance and I'm sure we can go into this a lot, but we'll, we'll try to keep moving, but it's always a tricky balance. I think for parents to figure out like how much to share with their kids. I remember my mom when I was 11 sharing a lot of details that looking back I'm like, I don't know if that was the best, to be honest.

I understand. Like, I'm glad I know, but, uh, man, it was earth shattering. And so yeah, at the same time, I think of the alternative like, well, what if she didn't share those things? What would've happened? I probably would. Figured some stuff out or tried to find answers. And so mm-hmm, certainly a, a tricky situation.

Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because that's one of the questions I asked my mom, like, why did you leave without saying anything? Yeah. Like, why didn't you explain anything to us? And, and even like, just tell us how you were feeling. And, and she was, you know, she, and I think I understand her a lot more now as a mom, myself.

And she said, um, that she wanted to protect us. Like, she, she didn't know how, like you said, she didn't know how much to share, because once you kind of opened that can of worms, it's just like everything. Like we would've known everything and that was, it may have been too much, but at the same time, it's like, just even to have like a little explanation like that, would've been so helpful for me to make sense of what was going on.

And even like now I, in our. Current relationship. Like I'm constantly trying to tell my mom to like, just tell me how you're feeling like open up, like, cause she's, it is just kind of her personality. And also like culturally, like it's, it's not very like common to be like emotionally open to your, with your children, um, as a Korean.

And, and so I'm constantly telling her, like, I wanna know like what is going on? Like even the bad stuff, like even the, like the negative feelings, like I wanna know those things, because that allows me to feel closer to you. And so that's just, that's something that we're like always working on in our relationship.

So yeah. It's and when it came, comes to my dad, that there's another thing I wanted to share that came up. Um, it, I think when it comes to my dad, like, like you said, I, I, I love my dad. Like he, um, I, uh, there's still a lot of hurt there, um, that I think like, I, I might always have to deal with, but I still love him.

And I think something that was really helpful for me to like, get to finally get to this point is I remember like one night I was praying and I, uh, I was at this, I think it was at a time in my life where I was just going through a lot, like processing, going to therapy, all this, all these things. Yeah.

And I was just asking God to like, give me some way to heal or like, like let go of all the hate that I had, um, for my dad. And like, I remember kind of in my prayer, I was imagining myself, like at the foot of the cross, you know, I'm like looking up at Jesus, hanging on the cross and I'm on my knees and I'm holding my hands up like this.

And I was like crying and, and just like. Being aware of like the mistakes that I had made cuz I, I, you know, I struggled a lot and I made a lot of mistakes and I'm telling, I was telling God, I'm sorry. And I remember like kind of having this vision where I like looked to my right and my dad was standing right next to me in the same position on his knees with his hands up like this.

And it dawned on me that like the love that God has for me, he has that same amount of love for my dad. He doesn't love me anymore. He doesn't love my dad anymore. It's like, like the SA the amount of love that he has for us is equal. Even though it's like personal and intimate, like for each of us it's he loves my dad and he's forgiven my dad.

Like just as much as he's forgiven me. And so that was just like, so eye-opening, to me that. I, I can be capable of forgiving my dad too. And yeah, I mean, like going back to, you know, sharing details of, of like the divorce, as I learned more of, of what had happened in my parents' marriage, like it would bring up a lot of those feelings again, of like her and abandonment and just like shock at how, like my dad treated my mom, but like I could, I was still able to like, go back to that vision of like, God still loves my dad.

Like he loves him so much. And so I can love him too. Wow. You're making me tear up this beautiful. Oh gosh. yeah, no, it it's really, really beautiful. And I think there's something so heroic in everything you just shared too, because so many of us get so stuck in the hate. Yeah. And it just leaves us stuck in life, frankly.

That's what I've seen and experience. And so I think there's something so freeing about forgiveness and we've done, you know, episodes on forgiveness and yeah. Um, I, I think that's something that is really difficult, but worth going into, I wanted to ask you, what would you say to your parents if they were listening right now?

It's a heavy question. yeah, it is. You know, I, I think I've, I've said like everything I need to say yeah. Like, thankfully, like, I, I did get a chance to do that, so, but yeah, I, I think I would want them to know that, you know, what happened. Was not okay. Like it, it caused a lot of pain and, you know, we're all trying to still heal from that.

And, and maybe we will continue to work on that until we die. But I don't know. I guess I just want them to know that I love them. I think that's ultimately like I am hurt, but I still love them. And I think I have like a better understanding of why it happened and, and why they felt the need to like, make the choices that they made.

Not saying that. It was okay. But yeah, I think I can understand the pain and the turmoil that they were going through. It, it kind of prevented them from seeing anybody outside of themselves. And I can relate to that. Like, I've had moments too, like as a mom and as a wife, like I've had moments like that too, where I, I, I, all I can think about is myself and how I'm feeling and how I'm struggling, and I don't care about anybody else, you know?

And, and those are, you know, those, aren't my proudest moments, but I can understand why my parents had those moments as well. So yeah, I guess I would, that's what I would say. Like, I understand like why you did what you had to do, doesn't make it okay. But I still love you anyway. So good. I wanna shift gears with the time we have left to marriage.

Sure. Okay. So it it's really inspiring. I just first have to say. How beautiful your family is. Um, your marriage is, I'm sure it's not perfect, but none of us are , but it's, it's just really inspiring to see. And, you know, I knew a little bit of your backstory. Um, there's a great article that you were, uh, wrote for blessed Ashi it's, uh, nonprofit ministry, uh, for women, right.

If I'm getting that right? Yes mm-hmm and, uh, and we'll, we'll link to that article in the show notes guys, but, uh, hearing a little bit of your story through that. And then now hearing you share more deeply here, I have so much respect for you and it's just amazing. Just the life you've built, the marriage you've built, the family you've built.

I, I mean, I bet that if you were to go back to that, what 15 year old self, you probably wouldn't have thought that you could ever have what you have now was that right? Am I oh, absolutely. I didn't. I was like, I'm never getting married. Like, I, I was convinced that like, all marriages were gonna end, you know, like they were all going to fail or that all men would cheat and all this stuff.

So like, yeah, I it's. Thank you so much for those kind words. Um, yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. Like how, um, how I got here and I have four beautiful kids and a very loving husband. It was definitely like, um, marriage is not what I expected to be like in, in good and bad ways, you know? Sure. Like it's so much more beautiful and like profound and sacred.

And it's, it's this beautiful union that, you know, we come into and then we like have children from it. It it's, it's amazing. Like, I, I, marriage is so beautiful, so I don't wanna. I don't want us to forget that, but it is so challenging. It is. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's way more challenging than I thought it would be.

Even from someone like who experienced my parents' divorce and didn't wanna get married. Like I had no idea what I was, what I was getting into, you know? Yeah. But it's, it's good. Like, I, I think, you know, when, when I saw, when I look back at my parents' marriage, I, I think of the way, like they hardly fought in front of us.

They didn't, they, they, weren't very good at teaching me how to resolve conflict and how to like have healthy arguments. And so. You know, when I got married and we started having fights, you know, like, and having arguments, like, of course that's gonna happen. But every time that happened, I was like, oh my gosh, like we're doomed.

Like our marriage is doomed to fail. I'm gonna repeat my parents' mistake, blah, blah, blah. Like all these fears would come up and. I got really good at avoiding conflict. Like I would just, I would just do whatever it took to like, not go there or if it did get there, I would just shut down and like hide in, in my little shell.

yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and so that obviously, like, that was so frustrating for us. Like that was something that would come up repeatedly, like where my husband is. Like, we're trying to like figure something out. We're trying to resolve an issue. And I'm like, I refuse because if we go down, if we, if we try to like talk this out, like we're just gonna keep fighting and then we're gonna, you're gonna leave me, you know?

Um, and that was like the message that, that, like I was given. And I would like tell myself that, like, if we, if we keep fighting, like we're gonna end up in divorce. And so it was, yeah, it was just a really, like, I had to shift the way I, we view conflict, like. Conflict is gonna happen, like regardless, like it's, it's inevitable.

absolutely. Um, yeah, and I mean, it it's just like any two people with their own issues and their own baggage. Like when you come together, like issues are gonna come up, like let's just, let's just accept that. Right. yeah. Amen. But for me, it was like really hard to accept because I, I thought like our marriage had to be perfect.

Like we couldn't ever fight, we couldn't ever argue. Like, and so over the years it's been, it's been just very surprising to me, like how conflict would actually lead to resolution, which would actually lead to me feeling even more loved and like even more intimate with my husband, because like, I could be so vulnerable.

Like I could show him. All the sides of myself, like the good and the bad and the ugly. And he would still love me. And like, I could, I could just be totally raw and open with like all of the issues or like with my past or whatever you wanna call it. And he's just like, IM not gonna leave you. Like I'm , you know, like he, it was like, he would prove to me that he was fighting for me and he was fighting for our marriage, even in those moments where I was so ready to give up.

When we would just have arguments that seemed to like, not get anywhere, I'm like, I'm done, you know, like I was just so ready to like, just give up and he's like, no, I'm not giving up. Like we are gonna figure this out, you know, . And, and that was just so like, it was just not what I expected and. It, it just ended up with me feeling even more loved, you know, like knowing that I could be truly myself and he would love me.

So yeah. that's so I know that's so beautiful and I bet, I bet that just cuts to the core of your heart when you hear him say something like that, because for so long, you just, you know, like you said, you assumed that anyone who ever loved you or maybe said they loved you would eventually leave you and abandon you.

So mm-hmm, so, so beautiful. You touched on the struggle of conflict, uh, you know, you and I both know, and everyone listening knows that when you come from a broken family, relationships can be extra challenging. Yeah. And you know, similar with you, I was trained. It's kind of funny to say it like that, but we really, I think, need to talk about like this.

I was trained very poorly to handle conflict. Yes. And that training came from the school of love that I went through in my family. Right. Um, which sadly was very broken. And so when it came my turn to build my own marriage, oh yeah. I, I was still lost and you know, I'm still, we're still figuring a lot of it out, but yeah, we, it is beautiful.

Those situations, like you said, where you. Have the conflict and then resolve it. Cause the way I saw it growing up was mom and dad would have an argument, usually get loud and then one or both of them would just walk away. Maybe they resolved it later, but us kids never saw it. And so we just kind of got this bread into our DNA that like, well, that's just kind of what couples do is you fight, you go your separate ways and things never get resolved, which is obviously a recipe for disaster in any way.

right, right. Cause you're like, what does it even look like to have like a healthy argument and to come to resolution? Like it's just, it was never modeled for us. Exactly. Yeah. And I think people who don't come from broken families, um, might struggle with that. And anyhow, I, we, we can go into that maybe a little bit later, but I, I was curious like what, what other struggles have you faced in your relationships and in your marriage that maybe we haven't touched on already?

I think just kind of the way we cope with our emotions. Like I. I learned to adapt to my situation with unhealthy coping mechanisms. And so it's very hard for me not to wanna jump back into those things now, like when I have conflict in, in my own marriage or with, within anybody, like it, it doesn't even have to be within marriage.

Like if I'm, if I feel like conflict with my sister or my mom or with God, like it's like, I will immediately like revert to kind of like the way that I coped back, you know, when I was dealing with my parents' divorce. Yeah. Not, and, and not even like actually going through with it, but like wanting to do, wanting to go back there.

It's so attractive in those moments. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, when you're young, when you experience your parents' divorce and you're young, it's. Your, I feel like your brain is just like UN survival mode. Yeah. And so it like it, like I was talking about this with my therapist. It's like, it, you literally, your brain will rewire itself to survive and to protect yourself.

Wow. And so it's like all that work and therapy that I was doing, it, it, it was like rewiring my brain and changing those messages that I had told myself. Like, if you, if you like go and do these things, like you'll feel so much better. You know? And like, obviously they're not healthy ways. So it's just like, I had to learn how to like rewire and then like, figure out what can I actually do?

Like, what are positive and healthy ways to deal with this situation and to cope with, with like my emotions, like think having control of my emotions, or like being able to like regulate my O own emotions was something that wasn't taught to me. And so like now as a mom, it's like, it that's something that like, I struggle with a lot, like with my kids, like learning how to regulate my emotions so that we can help them regulate their emotions.

Like if, yeah. If they see me flying off the handle, like they're gonna, they're not gonna know how to deal with that. And they're gonna also fly off the handle, you know? Sure. So it's just like, yeah, it's just, um, I think. I think the beauty of all of this, like as hard as it was and as painful as it was, it brought up, it, it like brought about so much self-awareness and being aware of the pain that I felt, it helped me to realize, like, I do not want this to happen to my kids.

And, um, and I don't want this to happen to my marriage. And so it's like, I think in a way it was like a, a way to kind of grab the, the power back and be like, I'm not gonna let this happen. I have the power to make choices now to prevent this from happening with my own family. So yeah, that's, that's something that, you know, we're, we're always working on and sure.

I hope, you know, like I know we will continue to work on. Absolutely. And I've seen people, especially who maybe are a little bit further than us along in the path of marriage and family. Um, I've seen them just fight like hell to not repeat the cycle. Yeah. And I hear the same thing in you, and I don't know if anyone will truly ever understand how difficult it can be to like, fight against that.

But, um, yeah, it's so worth it and it is beautiful. And I know we have a baby girl and I just like, love her more than anything in the world. And I, uh, yeah, she's so motivating for me, just like, man, I, I just wanna give her the best of everything and I just don't want her to, you know, have to deal with what my siblings and I had to deal with growing up.

Mm-hmm and so, yeah, I can see how that that's so motivating. Were there any specific lessons or skills that you learned again, you mentioned learning how to handle conflict in a healthy way. Were there any other lessons or skills that were maybe the most valuable in overcoming those struggles that you, you faced?

I think being aware of how I, um, how, how I view, I think for me, like conflict was the biggest thing. Being aware of how I deal with conflict, like gathering tools to kind of go against what my instincts are and to do the healthier thing. Like my husband and I came upon, uh, the Gottman Institute. Have you heard of them before?

Um, John, John Gottman? Yeah. I mean, great work. I don't know if our listeners know, but I love their work. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, just really quick. It's there's um, I believe he's a psychologist. He, he and his wife, I may be wrong. Um, but they have studied married couples for years and years and years and, and studied the way they, um, they argue and how they address conflict.

And they've like somehow have come up with like, A way to like, I, I guess they say that when they, um, like observe how couples argue, they have like this like a 95% accuracy rate where they can tell if they're going to end up in divorce or not. Wow. And it's just like, whoa, like so much. Yeah. Like there's so much that, um, like just the way that you address conflict that can like make such a huge difference.

And, um, and they talk about the four horsemen in, in conflict. So like, these are things that like drive a wedge between you and your spouse and, and can possibly lead to divorce. And, um, do you, do you know, the, the four horsemen are, I, I know one of them is like, um, Can you, can you remind me of that? Yeah, no, no, you're totally fine.

It, it is. Some of them are hard to, to remember. Um, but the, the first one from memory is, um, criticism. Yes. And, and the difference between criticism and maybe critique is that you're attacking a person as opposed to, uh, giving feedback on a situation or something like that. Right. Or their like behavior you're attacking their character and not their behavior.

Exactly. Right. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And then I think one was like defensiveness. Yeah. I think, yeah. I think the second one, um, I think defensiveness is three. If I remember right. You correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, the second one I think is really related to criticism, which is contempt and a Gotman defines it as the, uh, psychological or the intention to psychologically harm.

Your spouse. So it's kind of, Sadis sadistic in a way. It's like we are in a way trying to get back at them for hurting us. Yes. And then, and then defensiveness, like you said, which yeah. Take it away. Yeah. And then the, the last one was, um, stonewalling, which is where you, you build up like those walls around you and you don't let any, you don't let your spouse in, you don't let anybody penetrate that, those walls that you've built around you.

And that was like, that was the one for me. And so I, I think like just being aware and. Having resources, like going out and, and finding resources and get like, gathering like those tools that we could put into our tool belt so that when things come up, we can remember, we can, we can learn, we can grow. So, yeah, that, that was really helpful for us.

I think for my husband too, like, cuz he comes from an intact family and I know you, you said you wanted to talk about this a little bit where please. Yeah. They, you know, they don't, they don't fully understand like what it's like to be a child of divorce and, and they can't like, they will never fully be able to understand because obviously they haven't gone through it.

But absolutely. I think for my husband, if I could speak to anybody who's in that position, my husband's position, I think what's, what's so helpful. He didn't try to like, solve my issues. Like he wasn't there to fix the problem or to be my therapist. Like, like that's not his role. And it, he was simply there to like, just listen.

Like I think for me, like what I needed to do was just to like share and to let, let it out and kind of have it out in the open and he would listen. And yeah. So I, I think if I could speak to anybody in that position, like, you don't need to fix their issues. You don't need to be there to like fix their family situation.

All, I think all your spouse needs is, is like to know that you're there, that you support them, that you're listening. Um, being a good listener is like, is so important. And to know like that. Like their pro their issues and their family history. It's not too much for you. It's like, it's not too like too much work, you know?

Like, I think that was something that was so, um, that was a big fear for me. Like my husband, like he's, he doesn't wanna deal with all of this. Like, this is too much for him, you know? And it is just, he was just like, you know, proving over and over and over again. Like, no, like I'm here to stay. Like, I'm, I'm here with you till the end.

Like it, it doesn't matter like what you did and, and you know, like what the family situation is. It, it does matter, but it's not gonna change my love for you. Beautiful. Maggie. We're running outta time. I don't wanna keep you forever. We could talk forever I'm sure. Sure. And we'll have to have you back another time, but, uh, if people wanna follow you, how could they do.

You can follow me on Instagram. My, um, handle is at Maggie Kim 49, or you can email me. My email address is M Y E E 49, gmail.com. Um, and I'm also, I, um, contribute blogs to blessed to she, um, which is a great, amazing ministry and organization. And so if I, um, you know, write blogs for them. So you could also find some of my writing there too.

Sounds awesome. Was there anything from blessed to she or anything that you've created that you kind of wanted to make people aware of that maybe would, would help them even just grow as a person, even if they don't come from a broken family? Oh, um, nothing personally, like I've, I've written some blogs here and there, there, there is, um, a blog that I wrote about Saint quotes for broken families.

Um, which I think resonated with a lot of people, but yeah, I. So, this is not something I've done personally, but they, you know, have created like devotionals and journals and retreats and mentoring, like programs that are beautiful and amazing and have been so helpful to so many women. So, um, and I mean, it's not just, just cater to women, it's cater to anybody, but I think what most women would like resonate with them.

So anyways, yeah. It's they have really great stuff there. Okay. Guys, make sure to check that out. We'll link to everything Maggie mentioned in the show notes, including her handle her email. Uh, Maggie, thank you so much for being here. I want to just give you the last word I closing out here. Uh, would encouragement.

What advice would you give to someone who comes from a broken family and they feel really broken. They feel really stuck in life. Maybe they're struggling in some serious ways. What advice? What, what, what advice, what encouragement would you give to someone like that? Yeah, I, I think first of all, I, I wanna say.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. Um, it's not fair to you and, and I understand like how, how painful it is and how you can feel stuck. But I also want them to know that it's not their fault. I, I think a lot of children who experience their parents' divorce, like they, they think somehow it, it was because of them like that they they're at fault.

And that is so far from the truth. I think that the devil is really good at filling our heads with those lies. And like, I, I, yeah. I mean, I, I think he wants to like, Keep us in, in that darkness. So I think something that would be really helpful is to just like share your story and to bring it, bring light to it.

Because, because when you do that, the devil has no power over you and he no longer has that power over the situation. So if anything, like, I just want to empower people to know, like they can tell their story, they can share their experience. And I think that would bring a lot of healing. And just to know that you aren't.

You have the power to change your family history. Like you don't need to repeat the cycle of divorce. Um, you can make a decision right now to do things differently, um, to make, you know, different choices and that's gonna change, you know, your family for generations and you have the power to do that. So I just encourage people to just be aware of that and to be empowered.

And, and to also know that I'm praying for, for all of you. And I hope that you're praying for me too, because we're all on this journey of healing together and that's okay. Like I think it it's okay to be healing. It's okay to. Be there at the end of that journey of healing yet, but we can do it together.

You guys, you're not alone.

I love that conversation so much wisdom, so much hope. And for all you parents listening, I actually wanna pose a question to you and I don't mean this harshly at all. In what ways? Can you take ownership for the things that happened in your family like Maggie's mom did. And I'm not saying that you caused everything that happened in the breakdown of your marriage and your family, but it's so helpful for us as the children to hear our parents take ownership.

And this honestly has been a struggling point for me and my siblings. And so how can you take ownership of your piece of the brokenness and communicate that to your kids? And that second part is important, communicating that to your kids. And we'll be coming out with more content on how to do that properly, but it's so important to eventually open the door, talking with your kids about everything that happened.

It can be extremely healing for them. And also for you. I just wanted to quickly mention, if you wanna share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that by going to restored ministry. Dot com slash story. There's a form in that page to help you tell a short version of your story, and then we'll take that, turn it into an anonymous blog article.

So if you wanna do that, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/story, or click on the link in the show notes. Again, if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, you can go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, or click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

Love Is: Patient (A Beginner's Guide)

5 minute read.

“Patient” is the first word used to describe love in one of the all-time most popular definitions of love, which comes from 1 Corinthians 13.

Whether you’re religious or not, I’m sure you’ve heard it at a wedding right there at the top: ‘“Love is patient.” This gives the impression that it’s important; patience matters.

Patience matters because people are annoying and frustrating and painfully disappointing —there’s just no way around it (as someone who is annoying, frustrating, and painfully disappointing, I can attest to this).

When we’re infatuated, we miraculously overlook this fact. It often comes as a rude awakening when the rose-colored glasses fall off and we realize what we’ve done: idealized someone who’s pretty much just like everyone else.

Your loved one can get on your nerves, and you may find that it is actually harder to be patient with them than with other people.

This makes sense as you see your beloved’s flaws up close, day in and day out. Your patience wears thin quickly because it is tested more than with someone you only see every once in a while. Additionally, because of the level of comfort you have with each other, it can be more difficult to hold back a biting comment or otherwise express your annoyance toward them.

Love is patient, we are not.

This is why, as people who hope to love, who want strong relationships and marriages, who have people in our lives we want to love, we must attempt to conform ourselves to love by striving to be patient.

How though?

ACCEPT

Patience is not contingent on the good behavior of others. People are going to screw up, in big ways and small. Things are not going to go as planned, and we will spend a lot of time waiting. Patience demands that we not react harshly to the inevitable instances when our loved ones demonstrate their weaknesses and faults, or when our life together is different from how we imagined it would be.

Furthermore, we must remember that our desires are not demands. In other words, what we want—especially for and from someone else—should not be imposed on them. Your loved one is not an extension of yourself. We have to accept who they are and where they are and embrace their complete otherness.

Basically, we can accept that the person we fell in love with—and possibly idealized a little bit—is not perfect. And out of love, we are invited to not merely tolerate their shortcomings, but to be compassionate toward them.

Again . . . how?

RESPOND

Don’t react. It is entirely normal to feel impatient, annoyed, or frustrated toward your loved one. You don’t have to be cheery about the fact that they did something which disappointed you or hurt you in some way (again). Patience comes in the space between what you’re feeling and how you react.

We have a choice whether to react or to respond. Reacting is the immediate sassy comment, eye roll, frustrated sigh, or burst of anger. It is instinctive and thoughtless.

Responding is a deep breath followed by a thought-out, gentle remark or question—or a decision to “let this slide,” because you realize it’s not a matter worth bringing up.

A reaction doesn’t take into account the long-term consequences of an outburst; it is only concerned with the release of strong emotions being felt in the current moment.

A response is able to order the emotions to the good of the relationship by holding back angry words or other wounding actions.

A reaction does not take into account the other; it is preoccupied with self. A response is an act of love toward the other and self.

A response serves the relationship, a reaction often wounds it.

Every time you find yourself getting annoyed or frustrated with your significant other, make an effort to see it not as an inconvenience but as an opportunity to love them. What that looks like will depend on the situation. Maybe you need to bring the matter up and have an earnest discussion about it. Maybe you can let it go, or maybe you need to wait to decide what the right course of action is. If you do end up talking about it, the conversation can be fruitful and loving and lead to a stronger relationship, instead of a heated and defensive argument.

This could mean leaving the room to take a few deep breaths or saying a quick prayer in silence, the point is to give yourself the space you need to respond instead of reacting. This isn’t burying all your feelings deep down and piling on insincerity toward your loved one. It is finding the best way to handle the matter and not allowing your instincts to sabotage your relationships.

It’s highly unlikely that you will react to something that irks, frustrates, or disappoints you in a loving way. However, you will always have the choice to respond to even the most annoying of instances with love.

PRO TIP: EMPATHY

While you’re taking time to respond, it helps if you step into your loved one’s shoes. Often we can assume the worst intentions because we refuse to simply walk a mile in the other person’s shoes.

Rarely do people do things out of malice. Honestly, most of the times people act out of what they believe to be right, habit, carelessness, or, at worst, woundedness.

If we can understand why our beloved does what they do (especially that which exasperates us), we are much more likely to handle it lovingly when we see that their motive is not to hurt us.

If you’re not sure, ask. In fact, as a general rule, seek understanding from your loved one about their perspective, and do your best to truly see them before you interject your opinions on the matter.

PRACTICE

In traffic, at the grocery store, waiting for your food to be microwaved…there are a thousand small instances for us to practice patience, the challenge is to recognize them and take action.

This week, try looking for those opportunities to practice patience: while you’re on hold, waiting for a text back or a package to arrive. . .

Make the decision to use these small instances of boredom/inconvenience, to put your patience muscle into training. Instant gratification is what we’re used to, but in relationships that habit won’t serve us at all. We need to detox from this unfortunate norm.

TAKE THE LONG WAY

Take this challenge one step further and avoid the shortcuts. Call instead of texting, or even better, send a letter. Handwrite a note instead of putting it in your phone. Let the person in traffic go in front of you. Drive the speed limit. Make a meal instead of ordering takeout. Stop interrupting others.

At first glance, it doesn’t feel like patience needs to be high on my priority list.

But when I think about it in the context of love and how patience really is woven into the greatest virtue of all, I realize that if I have any hope of being in lasting relationships with others and a successful marriage, patience is indeed instrumental.

Love isn’t necessarily something we are just born understanding and able to flawlessly put into practice—far from it. We learn to love slowly, one moment at at time. But we keep trying. The beauty about it is that love not only allows us to be in relationship with others but also makes us to grow as a person.

Improvement is hard-earned, and sometimes the hard part is simply pausing when you feel the familiar rush of irritation welling up inside.

And remember: Patience is a virtue! And, practice makes perfect!
And other annoying axioms.

Differing Values in Marriage and How to Handle Them

6 minute read.

A while ago I went to a storytelling event where the theme was “Romance or Not.” As you might expect, the stories told were largely about relationships and the hilarious, disastrous, wonderful adventures they can be.

One woman, in particular, described her marriage as akin to “packing for a ski trip and landing on the Caribbean.” There were ups and downs, challenges and blessings that she could not have foreseen. Part of that included differences in values between her and her husband.

When the couple met, she was a working woman with an intimidating career history. She and her soon-to-be husband had come to the agreement that she would continue her career well into their marriage. It was what they both wanted. After all, two paychecks are better than one, right?

However, things took a turn the first moment she held her baby boy in her arms less than a year after getting married.

She didn’t want to go back to work anymore, but her husband’s opinion on the matter had not changed.

And so, almost immediately after the birth of their first child, a baby elephant that she named “Elephantina” was also born into their relationship.

Over the years, Elephantina grew. She began to take up more and more space in their relationship, and the strain became increasingly palpable. Marriage counseling was “okay” but didn’t seem to be doing the trick. The woman admitted that they reached a point where, though still together, neither she nor her husband wore their wedding bands. Her husband was gone a lot, and most of their communication took place over text.

Would their marriage survive the enormous presence of Elephantina—the vast space between them resulting from their different values?

You’d be hard put to find someone who agrees with you on everything. But how different is too different?

I mean if you don’t like olives, cool, more for me!

But what about the big things: religion, parenting styles, financial decisions . . . These are things that have the potential to make or break a marriage. These are the things that make Elephantina grow big and tall.

In fact, disagreements on finances are one of the leading causes of stress in a relationship. Other top reasons for marital discord—and even divorce—are sexual differences and different core values or beliefs.

You can imagine why this last one especially complicates long-term relationships: he wants to go to one church, and you want to go to another (or no church). She thinks technology is fine for children, while you’re convinced it’s detrimental to their development. He wants to save as much as possible, she’s more focused on enjoying earnings in the present.

And so on. At first, these sorts of issues may not seem like a big deal. But the longer you’re with someone, and the more your lives become entwined, the more difficult it can be to prevent these different outlooks on life from getting between you.

Does different = disaster?

When you find yourself consistently on a different page from your spouse or significant other, you can try these strategies for confronting the challenge that different values in marriage can provide.

OVER-COMMUNICATE

If you’re not married yet, for goodness’ sake, make sure to talk about important things. And know that not all big things feel like big things.

How you both unwind after a long day for work, for example, may seem like a trivial detail, but when you live together and experience each other day in and day out, one of the best things you can do is allow the other to decompress the way they want.

Why? Because, say your brand-new husband comes home after a long day at work and you can’t wait to tell him everything that happened to you today. He, on the other hand, desperately wants to just sit for a few minutes and think about nothing. Imposing your need on him will frustrate him because he really needs to chill, and you aren’t allowing him to. It will also be disappointing for you because you know he isn’t listening or responding to what you are saying.

The end result is two people who didn’t get their needs met and are angry at each other because of it. Now your precious evening together has been hijacked by simply not knowing what each other needed in that moment. If you understand that he needs to relax for fifteen minutes right when he goes home, then, when he is ready to listen, you can get what you need: a good listener.

Other things such as how you prefer to spend money (going out to dinner, new clothes, gym memberships, travel, etc.), what your stance is on organized religion and why, what chores you like and which you really hate, traditions that are really important to you and why, how many children you would like to have and when, thoughts on private school versus public versus homeschooling . . .

The more you can cover beforehand the better. Not necessarily because you’re on the lookout for dealbreakers—although you should know what those are for you—but so the transition to married life is smoother.

If you’re already married, all is not lost. Maybe you’ve already figured some of this out—maybe the hard way. But if not, now is a great time to broach some of these topics. The more you discuss and really listen to each other’s perspectives, the less you’ll get caught off guard when your loved one doesn’t agree with you, and the better you can respond with love instead of reacting negatively to your disagreement.

DEVELOP A “WE-NESS”

This especially applies if you’re already married: you are a team. You are on the same team. You are not just you anymore, you are “we.”

You are each entrusted with the wondrous task of uplifting and encouraging each other, even when you don’t agree.

And if that’s not clear enough, I don’t know what is!!!

The point is, while you are both complete individuals on your own, you are two individuals who have become a united front. This means that while you can and will have disagreements—even on big things—it’s important to not view each other as the opposition.

You are not trying to “win over” your spouse or significant other to “your side.” It’s not your job to convince them of your argument or to prove them wrong. You can share your perspective and should explain your reasoning, but that’s where the persuading ends and the accepting begins. You can accept that there is room for differences within your “we.”

You can accept that your loved one is not an extension of yourself.

You can accept that you married someone with their own thoughts, experiences, hurts, dreams, and strengths different from your own.

You can accept that you cannot and should not try to change the person you are with.

This is what it means to love unconditionally. You are no longer just you, you are “we”—even when you disagree.

And that rhymes!

Practically speaking, to develop this “we-ness,” it is essential that you practice empathy as often as you can. Part of uniting yourself to your beloved means a continual effort to see them. This means not only doing your best to understand superficially what they believe and why, but also really delving into their experience. To put aside your own thoughts, experiences, opinions, and to put yourself instead in their shoes. Ask questions, listen, and use your imagination to get a glimpse of the inner workings of your loved one.

Imagine what it’s like to be them: What do they feel? Why do they feel it? What experiences have influenced their opinions?

MUTUAL RESPECT VS. COMPROMISE

At the end of the day, through each other’s differing opinions and beliefs, there should be a high level of regard and respect for each other. Never should we condescend our significant other because of what they believe or feel. Nor should we compromise what we believe or feel. You don’t have to sacrifice what you value to make your spouse happy. You can be open to their opinion and the fact that they could be right, but that’s a conclusion you want to arrive at, not be forced into accepting.

There can be disagreement within relationships and marriages as long as there is a healthy respect for each other.

And respect means not asking, “Are you crazy?” or, “How can you think that?” And not saying, “That’s ridiculous.” Respect means having an appropriate reverence toward your beloved as an incredible human being worthy of love and adoration.

In practice, this looks like listening, thinking before you speak, and always using words that uphold the great dignity of your spouse.

In case you’re wondering, the woman at the storytelling event did stay with her husband. They have been married for over fifteen years. He was at the event with their two children listening to her speak, and he kissed her when she sat down after she finished telling her story.

Elephantina is still alive and well—they have disagreements and areas where they don’t see eye to eye. But despite the challenge these differences present, they have chosen to stick together and accept the beauty that is a union of two different people.

And she’s never gone back to work.

What You Need to Know about Intimacy After a Breakup

3 minute read.

It’s hard when you see someone you loved moving on. (To put it mildly). It hurts because you not only loved that person, but you also knew them . . . and that doesn’t just go away.

The reality is that (depending on the length and intensity of the relationship) you knew each other better than most people. You may have known their family, you may have known their greatest fears and their biggest frustrations, their hopes and dreams, their hurts and insecurities. You may have experienced their anger, their impatience, their gentleness, their sweetness, their weakness . . . you knew them.

And they knew you. The two of you were intimate.

This intimacy is what makes the parting of ways (and his moving on) so painful.

Having been through painful breakups myself, it helped me in the aftermath to understand what intimacy really is, and why it’s so important. As you’ll see, we cannot afford to lose the softness of heart that allows others to know us.

INTIMACY: THE BASICS

Often we associate intimacy with the physical aspect of a relationship, but that is only one layer of it. Reflecting the various elements of the human person, intimacy is also emotional, intellectual, and spiritual.

The gift of being in a relationship is the intimacy that you develop with the other person. It is knowing them and being known by them. To know someone does not mean to have sex with them; it means to understand who they are as a unique, integrated being with thoughts, hopes, dreams, fears, history, family, goals, and a body and soul combined.

Friendship, dating, and marriage are a continual unveiling of the other person. It is discovering and being discovered by them over the course of a lifetime. It is this that makes relationships such a beautiful and challenging adventure. Beautiful because intimacy is wonderful and people are good, and challenging because we are all broken and have experienced hurt.

We crave this intimacy. It is embedded in our nature to be seen for who we really are (and not just who our various social media profiles say we are). The challenge with this is that, as much as we ache for this closeness, we are terrified of it in equal measure.

Intimacy, then, is a knowing, an understanding of the other as a person with a body, mind and soul and not merely an extension of yourself. It is this intimacy that allows us to love and be loved fully—and also what can make relationships terrifying.

THE RISK AND REWARD

You see, revealing yourself to others is also making yourself vulnerable to them. You are exposed and therefore susceptible to being hurt—or worst of all, being rejected.

When someone sees your innermost self—both the good and the ugly—it becomes possible for them to see you and say “This isn’t for me.”

So what is the benefit of intimacy? Why bother with it? Why should we even try to delve into relationships if the fallout can be so excruciating?

It occurred to me that maybe this hurt is meant to indicate something. Maybe what you can take away from this pain is the same thing you can learn from the pain of a sore throat or a broken arm: this isn’t how it’s supposed to be . . . something is not right.

What you are meant for is unconditional love. A love that sees you completely and accepts you without ifs or buts. The extent to which you reveal yourself to someone is the extent to which they can love you. They can choose to love in spite of your hurts and struggles and pronounced imperfection. This unveiling of self is a gift to the other that demands to be treasured and cherished. It is not something that should be thrown away or treated carelessly.

The great suffering that can result from the end of an intimate relationship is indicative of its great value. As in my case in relationships before my husband, the intimacy that should have led to an even deeper love instead led to a walking away—and that is not okay. Love doesn’t make moves like that. Unfortunately, our humanity works against us sometimes and prevents us from loving the way we should.

Intimacy, therefore, is a great risk—the fallout can wound deeply, and the payoff can heal immensely. Since the outcome is not guaranteed, we may feel tempted to avoid intimacy altogether. This is a mistake since the reward of intimacy is everything: to love and be loved.

THE CALL

Because of this, intimacy isn’t something to be avoided at all costs, rather it is something to be given great value and so treated with immense care. This is what we were made for: to love and be loved. And deep love requires deep intimacy.

My temptation (and maybe yours) after a relationship ended is to shut down. To lock the door to my heart, close the blinds and place a “no trespassing” sign outside front and center.

But intimacy bid me (and you) to do the opposite.

Our calling to be loved, and therefore to be known, insisted that I mourn, I grieve, and then, in time, slowly crack open the door to let someone in again when they come knocking.

Maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow or even this year. But one day.

Dare I Say Forever? On Overcoming Fear of Commitment

6 minute read.

If I were to ask you what you’re afraid of, you’d probably rattle off things like snakes or spiders or high interest rates (eek).

I’m definitely scared of those things. But the most anxious I’ve ever been wasn’t when I had to kill an enormous spider with my biology textbook (finally put that thing to use), or when I watched my credit card debt increase EVER so slightly . . . again (ugh).

The most anxious I’ve ever been was when I was in a committed relationship with a man I loved.

Not exactly the plot of a horror movie, I know.

Whenever things were casual and I had no expectation of a future together—that was my sweet spot. The moment there was a real possibility of a relationship going somewhere . . . for me it might as well have been another episode of American Horror Story.

So if you were to ask me what I’m scared of and I responded honestly . . . I’d have to say I have a fear of commitment.

And if I were to ask you . . . well, you might say the same thing.

Before we go into it, though, it could be helpful to define commitment. Commitment is simply being dedicated to something or someone. Whether that’s a dedication to one person, dedication to the plans you make or the values you have . . . it’s a choice you make.

While the word commitment may feel daunting and restrictive, it is actually the only way to attain what we want for our lives—especially the important things.

Commitment is the freedom to choose. You see, as long as you don’t commit to anything, you’re really choosing nothing and no one. If you resist committing to anything or anyone over the course of your life, you may try many things, but you will never experience anything deeply—that is to say, in a truly meaningful way.

Instead of harnessing the power of free will, you are completely disregarding it and therefore submitting yourself to a life of coasting. Coasting can be presented as glamorous, but committing is infinitely more rewarding. With commitment comes excellence, growth, and—most importantly—love.

More simply put, if you don’t know—if you don’t decide—where you’re going, you’ll never get there; you’ll never get anywhere.

Without commitment nothing would be mastered, nothing would change, no one would flourish, and we would all be quite lonely. Commitment—in all of its pain and glory—is where real life is. Real beauty, real goodness, real love.

SIGNS OF COMMITMENT ISSUES

• You avoid making concrete plans of any sort.

• You struggle to say “yes” or “no” definitively.

• You date the same person for several years without desiring to discuss marriage.

• You have yet to stay at the same job for longer than a year (if you’re well into your career).

• You fear missing out (whether that be a fun night out or a person who could be a “better fit”).

• You choose to date people you don’t see a future with or know are wrong for you.

• You avoid dating at all and are skeptical of your friends who are in relationships.

• You’ve been wanting to invest but can’t bring yourself to pull the trigger.

• You “ghost” (stop responding) people often.

If you find yourself nodding at several of these items, learning to be comfortable with commitment might be something for you to work on.

Often the best place to start is understanding: why is this difficult for you? Why have millennials especially become so reluctant to interact with anything which necessitates responsibility or obligation?

We gripe about this a lot—millennials and our noncommittal ways. But maybe more than pointing out the obvious, it matters that we go deeper.

WHY DO I HAVE COMMITMENT ISSUES?

The reality is that there is probably more than one reason for each of us and they all will vary. However, I think there are at least a few underlying causes which resonate with many of us to some degree and they are worth noting:

Fear of failure

There are very few things in this life meant to be permanent, marriage being one of them. However, we’ve seen too many of them (often including our parents’) end—or be carried out horrendously. We, therefore, as individuals and as a culture have developed a skepticism toward the institution itself. Anything resembling marriage (such as serious relationships) scares us because we have no faith except in its inevitable and painful demise.

Fear of getting hurt

Broken homes, previous relationships, jobs we’ve been let go from . . . we all have experienced pain and remember it vividly. Pain is—somewhat unfortunately—one of the most effective teachers. Depending on our ability to bounce back and the amount of time that has lapsed since, we may hold on to old wounds and do just about anything to avoid experiencing that sort of hurt again. And so we don’t date (or we date casually), we don’t apply for that new opening or promotion, we don’t put ourselves out there and we certainly don’t put all our eggs in one basket . . . #safetyfirst.

Fear of making the wrong choice

Indecision cripples us regularly. We can’t decide where to go out to eat on a Friday night . . . much less who we should marry. We are terrified of missing out, of making a mistake. Having seen people fail—or experienced it ourselves—and the resulting suffering, we tell ourselves that if we make the “right” choice, we can successfully avoid any sort of fallout that we’ve seen before.

This is delusional—nothing and nobody is “perfect.” When it comes to a lot of the big things in life, it isn’t a decision of right versus wrong, it’s often a decision between two goods. We are given free will and meant to use it. The answer won’t be written in the clouds or on a sticky note. We have to decide, understanding that there will be ramifications—good and bad.

Fear of intimacy or rejection

Fear of commitment often goes hand in hand with fear of being known. Fear that if someone sees us, they will find us to be bad or lacking in some way. This specific fear is incredibly painful and destructive. What often happens to those of us who have this fear is that we keep friends and loved ones at arm’s length—withdrawing when we feel vulnerable. To be loved requires being known for who we are—the more we prevent ourselves from being seen, the less we are able to be loved by others. Where this fear comes from is hard to say, but often it’s related to formative relationships gone awry.

CONQUERING FEAR OF COMMITMENT: HOW TO FIX COMMITMENT ISSUES

Firstly, we have to come to the realization that all that is good, noble, beautiful, and life-giving isn’t necessarily comfy. The more we accustom ourselves to being open to difficulty, the more we will be able to rise to the occasion when the opportunity for commitment appears. 

As much as it may be difficult to say “yes,” to be open to someone, to show up when we don’t feel like it . . . a committed life is ultimately much more rewarding than one that is mindless and susceptible to every fear or mood swing. But you can always start small. Try saying a small ‘yes’ or ‘no.’ Whether that’s simply meeting someone for lunch or committing to reading every day, you can practice for big commitments by starting with the small ones.

Something else that has helped me is taking a step back. It’s easy to spread ourselves thin today and do a lot mediocrely instead of just a few things well. I also am learning to say “no” to some things in order to be able to respond “yes” enthusiastically to others. We can’t do it all, give yourself a break and consider how you really want to spend your time.

Finally, as stated earlier, understanding the “why” is crucial. If commitment is something that very much scares you, it may be worth exploring the issue with a therapist. It can be daunting (and pricey), but truly a worthy investment of your time and money. The self-awareness and healing which often result from therapy will allow you to live a more authentic, free, and full life.

Fear of commitment has become so prevalent that often I worry people will no longer view it as a problem. The new “norm” could become one “maybe” after another, relationships going nowhere, and the demise of anything which requires a steadfast spirit.

I hope this isn’t the case. I know in my own life I will continue to wrestle with this fear as long as I need to. Not only because I know the good that lies on the other side, but also because I refuse to live a life run by fear.

What kind of life is that, anyway?

Here’s to saying and meaning the f-word many of us have run away from for so long: forever.

#063: The Antidote to Trauma | Margaret Vasquez

When your parents’ marriage and family break apart, it’s traumatic for you as their son or daughter. 

That trauma is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that last for a long time. As a result, you need to heal. But how? 

Our guest today, a trauma therapist, shares the antidote or opposite of trauma. We discuss:

• The 4 principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma

• One thing you can today, right away, to heal and grow

• Why feeling worthless is a major problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again

If you want peace, freedom, and great relationships, this episode is for you. 

Buy Margaret’s book: FEARLESS: Abundant Life through Infinite Love (affiliate link)

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Margaret Vasquez

  • margaret@sacredhearthealingministries.com

  • Sacred Heart Healing Ministries

  • Episode 37: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage and family falls apart, it's traumatic for you as their son or daughter. That trauma though is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that lasts for a long time. And as a result, you need to heal. But how my guest today, a trauma therapist shares the antidote to trauma, the opposite of trauma, as she says, We discussed the four principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma.

She also shares one thing that you can do today right now to heal and grow. We talk about why feeling worthless is a major sign and problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again. Now, if you want peace, if you want freedom, if you want great relationships, this episode is for you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 63. You've probably heard that my new book is available on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.

And I experienced these issues, these problems firsthand when my parents broke apart and it really shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating in the holidays? And other life events. How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to.

Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems to learn some healing tactics, to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. Now, if you wanna buy the book or if you want to get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash books, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. After over 15 years of treating trauma clients of all ages presenting to a wide variety of groups in person and through guests appearances on E WTN radio shows and podcasts.

Margaret began serving as a consultant for Franciscan university of Steubenville Institute. For diaconal renewal and presenting workshops and retreats to religious priests, deacons, and lay people. She now makes those same retreats and workshops available to you in her new book, fearless and through online retreats and workshops.

And as you might remember, I interviewed Margaret in episode 37 trauma, what it is and how it damages you. And we heard a lot of good feedback about that episode. This episode is equally as good, and I'm thrilled to. With Margaret again. And before we dive into the conversation, I wanna say that we do talk about God somewhat in this episode.

And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad that you're here. This show is for everyone, not just religious people. And my challenge for you is this, listen with an open mind, even if you take the God parts out, I'm super confident that you're still gonna benefit from this conversation. And so here it.

Margaret. It's so good to have you back on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks Joey. It's great to be. I was especially excited to talk with you again, because you're an expert on trauma and what the people that we're serving are dealing with so often is trauma from their broken families. And so I'm excited to speak with you, and I'm excited to tell everyone about this book that you've written because as I understand it, and you correct me if I'm wrong here, the framework that you offer really is an antidote to trauma.

So two questions for you. 1:00 AM I overstating that? And two, is there anything else you would say about the problem that this book solve? I see it as definitely not even just the antidote of trauma, but trauma prevention as well. Like when people are looking to like build their own families. Right. And also like one of the, when I'm, when I'm working with people in, in treatment in my office and I lay out the concept, be behind the book, we use it throughout the week for them to understand the why behind, like, why the things they've gone through.

Are particularly painful, hurtful difficult, because a lot of times people tend to minimize those things and think, well, if I just wasn't a whim or if I just had a thicker skin, or if I just wasn't so sensitive or, or this or that, and or people have been through worse, I hear that a lot. And I think when people can understand why things were painful and hurtful and that it was actually because the situation was not what we're made for, then they're able.

One not minimize it. And then so really be able to experience compassion and be compassionate towards themselves about it. And then also it puts 'em on a better trajectory going forward to be able to understand why those ways are not the ways to relate to others in the future. Right. Cuz they really understand the, the whole picture.

So. beautiful. I love it. It makes me think of, I've heard it said that who's more of the hero, a firefighter who puts out a fire, or maybe a firefighter who puts in a fire prevention system. And in a lot of ways, it's like, well, prevention is, is beautiful. And so either way, if someone's been through trauma, they can benefit from the book.

If they maybe haven't and they. Avoid that, or prevent that from happening, then they can benefit from the book. So really, really beautiful. Mm-hmm what would you say is the outcome or the transformation that you want for each person who, who reads the books and start more than reading it? Who puts it into action?

Who starts living this out? What's that outcome that you want for them simply stated it would be able to, to live, um, in the fullness of, uh, healthy. Connection communion with others and healthy integration with themself, and then hopefully healthy union with God, if for those who are on that track, because it's really like the essence of connection, whether it's to God, ourselves or others, it, it all comes down to the same principles.

So. Beautiful. And let's talk about that a little bit, like abundant life and other words that I would use for that too. And I know you would agree would be thriving or flourishing. Sure. Yeah. What do we mean when we say that? Cause I think for a lot of people, especially who have a really broken background, they may have never tasted that they may have no real concept of flourishing or thriving or some sort of abundant life.

Like, I dunno what that means. What would you say to someone who doesn't really can't relate to. Words. Yeah. Well, I just think, you know, a little bit about my history, right. And I, I grew up in a crazy amount of dysfunction and trauma. And so I, I came by the field honestly. Right. And so, yeah, I never understood that life could really be about something more than trying to like quiet the, the discord and confusion and drama, you know?

So I really like the definition of. Peace. That's more of like Shalom, right? Like, so the definition for that is like wholeness there's sense of completeness and fullness and that kind of thing, as opposed to the absence of discord. So to me, abundant life is such a sense of fullness and, and completeness that then it overflows to the others in your lives as well.

Mm. So good. And I, I would say too, that the byproduct of that is joy, which I think we all want, we want happiness. Oh yeah. Would you agree with. Oh, yeah, absolutely joy. Freedom. Yeah. Yeah. I think both of those words come to mind. beautiful. And I love what you said too. And I think so, so many of us have been there and even the people listening right now might be there right now.

It's just in the survival mode where perhaps even in a victim mode where they've, you know, gone through a lot and they just feel powerless and hopeless. And so I think this is very timely, so many people need, and I'm just really excited to, uh, to dive into this book. So in the book, you'd say that true, authentic.

Healthy connection is the antithesis of trauma. It's the antidote, like we said, why is that? Let's break into that a little bit more. Why is that the antidote? Yeah. Well, I see it like, as, I guess let's say I, I use the word antithesis because I see it as like the opposite of trauma, right? If like trauma is what we are not made for.

And so therefore it does damage to us on all different levels, physically, emotionally, spiritually, cognitively, relationally, you know, and the list goes on. Then, if that's true of trauma, then connection is that for which we're made. And it's really that by which we grow in personal integration, like meaning like our personal sense of self, our really our ability to, to really feel comfortable in our own skin, which is a really big deal.

And to be able to relate to others with a sense of starting with the needle on fall instead of the needle on empty mm-hmm . So we're really able. To relate from a sense of freedom where it's really, I can engage with you from a place of being filled up first. And so then it overflows to you rather than going.

Each interaction, really hoping that this desperate need in me somehow gets filled up by this person. And that's just such a, a setup for crazy making, you know? So I see connection is really, uh, what we're made for, because it's what causes that, that personal integration and that true piece and joy and freedom between people and relationships and that sense of, of growing union with God.

So good. And would you say, let's say someone's listening right now and like, well, I've kind of messed up in my relationships. I've built maybe this unhealthy reliance on another person. Like I feel half empty, you know, all the time, will this book kind of help them course? Correct too. Like, I, I know we're talking about prevention and maybe people in their mind, they might think if I don't use it beforehand.

And then I get in this situation where I'm really broken things. Aren't good. Can this help me course? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can I share, I'll share a story. So I was doing some follow up work for some people who had gone through trauma therapy and this one particular situation. It was a, a 16 year old boy and his mother.

And there was just a lot of conflict in their relationship because a lots of the stuff that he had been through. So just wrote out the framework really simply it's back. And I had a really simple model of it, and I really just on a page, drew a circle and divided into four quadrants and just wrote in those quadrant.

Boundaries valued, known and openness. I mean, it was just super rudimentary way of describing it to them, but I showed it to both of them and, and said, this is what we all need in relating. And when those things are there, like things are great. And when those things aren't there, everything goes sideways really fast, you know?

And so it was so cool. You know, I didn't like anticipate this cuz it was one of the first settings like that, where I was describing this to people after I'd started seeing. Kind of like a way of understanding human and spiritual integration mm-hmm . But by describing it to this mom and this son, and write, just writing it on this piece of paper and sitting it on the table in front of them.

Now, all of a sudden they were sitting like shoulder to shoulder and looking at this piece of paper and it was like, okay, this is what. We both need. And, and so this is what, where we feel like how you related to, you know, your father and I, what the mom would say, wasn't there, you know, it felt like you've crossed our boundaries or, you know, whatever by violating curfew or what, and for him, it was like, okay, I can understand that.

But like, , I didn't feel like you guys really understood how important going to that event was to me, you know? So I really didn't feel known cuz didn't feel like you, you know, listened to and, and so it was so cool, you know, I'm just like I'm watching this. Interaction take place and thinking how beautiful it was that it went from.

Well, you're a bad kid. Well, you're a mean mom into, before they had that framework of understanding, basically like rules of engagement. Right. And once they had that, then suddenly there was a common. A common goal and a common understanding of we want connection with each other. And I was just like, that was so cool.

And then the, the boy, the teen, he was going to his high school. And, uh, so over the next couple of weeks he would come in and I would be able to ask him about his week in terms of like his relationships with his parents, with his girlfriend or with his friends at school mm-hmm in terms of those connection factors.

And by the first week he came in after, you know, the. Just understanding, you know, explanation. He came in, he was able to explain what was working and what wasn't basically in his life, in terms of those four things. By the second week, he was able to do it without any prompting from me. It was like he had already like, Put his life up against the captain crunch, decoder ring.

Right. And like, knew how to talk about it. By the third week he came in saying that he was able to adjust on the fly in relationships with his girlfriend and his friends and his parents, like in his, just in his mind, like having those simple factors and he was relating to somebody and he felt like, okay, like, there's a block here.

There's a wall here. How this person's responding to me. Something doesn't feel smooth in his head. He just went by those. things and was able to like, yeah. Self correct, like in, in real time. And I was like, wow, that. That was like, that felt like a big victory. Amazing. Yeah. Right. 16 year old that's male, you know, that was like, it felt like a big deal.

Yeah. If it would feel a big deal to be able to teach that to a clinician and have him kind of master it in three weeks, but a 16 year old, it was great. Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. And you know, Us men, especially when we're teenagers aren't necessarily known for thriving. Well, you know, in the principles of you teach , what was that?

I wasn't gonna say it, but if you want to, yeah. I could say it . Yeah. Some are more advanced than others, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. I was like relating things that I'm learning for the first time, which I'm learning here is something I know. And it makes me think of like a preflight checklist almost. It's exactly a pre a preflight checklist.

I don't know the whole history, but basically after some accidents happened, because pilots who were taking planes off forgot to do really important things. Wow. They put in place, these checklists and these checklists have saved lives basically. Oh wow. Because they force. The pilots to perform this routine, right.

To make sure everything with the plane is healthy. Everything with the plane is functioning and literally it's saved lives. And so it almost makes me think this is kinda like a preflight preflight checklist for relationships. Yeah. And midflight , you can midflight right. There you go. And like we're losing altitude, right?

Like, right. So good love it. So let's get into the principles. So as you mentioned, there are four principles and, uh, I, yeah, I'm just so excited for people to learn them. So if you would teach us, break down these principles, how they work, we can start with value or however you wanna take it. But I was thinking we would start with value.

Cause I think that is the first actually, if, if it's okay with you, I'll start with boundaries because it just kind of makes the most sense to me. So yeah, go ahead. Um, which, okay, so, so I basically look at it like. Boundaries are the first things that we kind of kind of hit up against each other, uh, or hit up against when we're relating to each other.

Right. Is, um, which I would say like a basic sense of safety and respect and because we're body, mind and spirit, we, we get boundaries in all three of those areas. And even more than, than get boundaries, we as a kind of, as a. But like, we have them as a responsibility too. Right. We have a responsibility to set boundaries because those things are, are good self care.

And they enabled me to be able to bring my, a game to a situation. So I think a lot of times we don't get. Taught about boundaries or we get sent, you know, most often people tell me that they got sent a negative message about boundaries, like the boundaries weren't allowed. And I know for myself, got the message, like, who do you think you are if you're setting a, you know, if you're setting a boundary or something.

Hmm. But boundaries are really that first thing that we encounter when we're encountering the other. And, but I think when, when we have a basic sense of safety and respect from that person, then we naturally open. A little bit, you know, okay. I, I feel general sense of safety with this person, but we kind of see what they're about.

Right. And so then that door opens a little bit and I think the next, um, kind of chamber within that, that we reach is value. And I'd say value is if this person's respectful of my boundaries and they continue to relate to me in a way that shows me that they regard me with value based on my dignity as a human person.

or, you know, dignity as a child of God, then, then, okay. Then I feel a little bit safer and I'll even open that door a little bit. You know, it's a very different story when we are relating to somebody and we have a sense that they respect our boundaries. And so we open a little and then all of a sudden we start getting the message.

It's all about what I can get from you. You know what I mean? Right. Or it's based on like your looks or your money or your status or performance or your productivity, you know, there's. there's something in there that I'm trying to get outta you rather than just like, regarding you with dignity because you, you are.

And so then when that door opens a little, then I think what happens next is then we really like, let me let this person like really see and hear a little bit about who I really am. Right. And if they take the time to do that, then there's that sense of feeling known, right? If, if I'd say if. if we experience being seen and heard as an individual, who's very good.

Just very good. Like in our, in our essence, right? Like just again, because we are, it's not something we have to earn. And when that happens, then there's, there's this natural connection, you know, originally when I was seeing it as. Boundaries valued, known, and openness. I had an experience that taught me like, oh, you can't make an end run for openness.

Like, okay, all those things are nice, but I want this person to open. So I'm just gonna try to get my battering Ram out and bash that, that door down. Well, you can't, but when you relate to people, In a way that respects their boundaries and values them inherently. And you take the time to see and hear them as an individual.

Who's very good. That openness naturally happens because it's what we're made for. We're made for connection. I would, I throw chosen in there too, like really at the core, because sometimes the chosen being chosen is more of a it's more time limited, you know, it's not a forever kind of thing. Like really simple example would.

Being in a restaurant and wait staff is coming over and they're throwing the coasters on the table and they're like, hi, how's everybody doing today? You know? And like, good, good, good. If you don't look up, you know, or anything, and everything goes along, you know, just fine. But if you look up and you're like, oh, I'm doing well.

How are you doing? A lot of times they're like, oh, they're kind of taken back. And they're like, oh, I'm doing well. Thanks for asking, you know, it's almost like they kind of stammer like, oh my gosh, you're talking to me, like, I'm a human and not just what's between you and your stake, you know, or something like that, you know?

Yeah. Fair. So that's just being chosen in that moment. You know, it's not, you're gonna send a Christmas card necessarily to this person who waited on you and some relationships are a lot more, they last longer family relationships or friend relationships or things like that. And, and certainly when it.

Talking about it from a spiritual standpoint, it's at the core of our relationship with the Lord. He chose us first. And I think that same way that boundaries are the things we, we meet first with others and then being valued and then being known and then being chosen. I think it's really like when we talk about it from a spiritual perspective, God actually starts on the inside.

Right? Like he chose you out of all the possibilities of people he could possibly. Choose to create and redeem and sanctify and call intimacy with himself. He chose to create you. And then, you know, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, right? And then his value for us and pouring himself out for us and, and giving himself to us daily.

And then looking at his boundaries, I'd say is protection and provision would be kind of how I look at boundaries that seeing, looking at that from the Lord as, as morality, Really. And so it's like, because I choose, I chose to create you and I know you and I've poured myself out for you. Then I sat before you life and death, please, please, please use life.

It's gonna be so much easier if you do, you know, and in that way, being able to see boundaries from the Lord as. that's what he has for us instead of what he wants from us. Hmm. Because it makes a really big difference in how we receive it. You know, I, for myself, I went through a pretty significant period of time in my life where morality felt much more like what God wanted from me mm-hmm instead of it.

So ended up kind of much more like the older brother and the prodigal son where it's like, you. why is this guy get a fatted calf? And like, I'm over here busting my hump. And I don't even have, you know, a party with my friend, you know, kind of thing, you know, you get bitter and that kind of thing. Totally.

Instead of being able to receive the boundaries as, as gift, you know, primarily as God's protection and, and that kind of thing. So, so yeah, so I think it, it starts at the core. It starts on the inside, cuz God's on the inside, right? Not on the. wow. There's so much there. I know when my parents were going through their divorce and you know, I, I know they probably didn't intend this.

So often I felt like the only time I was involved in maybe their lives on a deep levels when they needed something from me, mm-hmm . And I think so often we see that with the people that we work with is that we almost, we feel used in a way by our parents. And I think just what you said at the end there about God, we just tend to project that image onto God thinking he's the same as our parents.

And so, you know, I, I think that's why a lot of people have an aversion to a relationship with God. It's like. I don't wanna be treated like that. I don't wanna be used. I don't think that he's worth my time, because if he's like my parents then, well, that's not something I'm wanna be a part of. So yeah.

There's a lot there. Anything you would say to that? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I feel like you logged, lobbed it right over the plate on that. So. When I went through trauma therapy, I came back from, from going through, you know, it was like intensive treatment and I came back home and I, I went to pray and I went to the, up to the chapel and I was sitting there and.

God took me like through that in my head showed me like how my father was, but like how he is and how my mom is. So to each one of those takeaway messages about how they parented me to the difference in how he is. And so just this past week with a person I was working with, we ended up with a whole sheet at the end of.

The week of something that, you know, the truth about God, and it was like, dad did this, but God does this, you know, mom did this, but God does that, you know, or that kind of thing. So parents are meant to image God for us. But unfortunately, sometimes that image isn't, it's not very favorable and so very sorted go back.

Yeah. And like rework. no. So true. Yeah, no, I've had to do, you know, a lot of work myself with kind of storing that it's something, right. To be honest, I'm wrestling with a bit right now. Um, just kind of going back to the basics in a way of seeing like, okay, you know, God, do you really want me, or are you just trying to get something out of me?

It's a very honest place to be, I think, especially to take that to prayer. Um, and I realize a lot of people listening might be opposed to that, but I would challenge you if you're listening right now. And you're just very opposed to a relationship with God. Why is that, you know, give us some thought. I think it's, it's worth thinking about it's worth kind of digging into a bit.

And I know it's been very fruitful when I've done that and just ask those honest questions and just wait, listen, see what happens. You know, you probably won't hear an audible voice, but there might be something that happens in your life, whether it's someone. Saying something to you. Some, I don't know a song you hear, it can be something as simple as that, a realization you have, those are sorts of things.

God uses to communicate to me. It's never audible, but it's often through one of those means of a realization or a relationship or something that just kind of comes up in my life. Yeah. It's, uh, it cuts to the heart of so much. I think of our issues with God when we, yeah. You hit the now in the head talking about kind of this problem that we have with seeing God like our parents.

Yeah. Or authority, authority, other people in authority can do that as well. You know, coaches or teachers, they can do the same. Kind of thing, you know, can image God for us in a way that's not necessarily the biggest compliment to God , you know? Yeah. And so then we kind of take that on and go, uh, no, not doing that, you know, at the bottom line, like God disagrees with that every bit, as much as we do , you know, if not more.

Right. And I think that's been something that's given me. Encouragement to like dig into those areas when I just didn't wanna have anything to do with him. Yeah. No, beautiful. That's hard work. Um, it's not something he, it's not something that happens overnight, but that's beautiful. I wanna go back to just this whole framer.

I think it's genius because so often when we talk about these things, it's really kind of like the whole picture of a relationship. It's all the points that you need. To live out a beautiful relationship relationship, a meaningful relationship, a fulfilling relationship. So often I think we maybe just focus on one of these pieces, whether it's boundaries or value or openness, or as we can say, vulnerability, I know it's a big thing that a lot of people talk about.

And so I love that you've kind of put them all together because I, I think they fit together so well. And so going back to. Value. I think this is a big struggling point for a lot of people. We feel worthless. Like, and, and I think that low opinion of ourselves often leads us to even hate ourselves. Mm-hmm um, I know in the past I've had to wrestle with that myself.

And so people might hear this and be like, oh, value, whatever. But I, I think it becomes very practical when you. Kind of dig into it as you explained really well of like, okay, I feel worthless. I feel like I have no value. I feel like I'm not worth loving. I feel like my value only comes from my work or from succeeding in school or sports or mm-hmm , you know, whatever situation like that.

So I think a lot of people listening right now are there right now, they feel worthless. And because of that, All of this other stuff just breaks down. Yeah. And so that's kind why I intuitively I don't know if it was from a past conversation or not, or from the book I intuitively went to value cuz I was thinking, man, that's so foundational, but I, I think it's wise that you started with boundaries.

So yeah, I, growing up, I kind of got that instill in me that your value comes from more of a utilitarian point of view of. The value provided in your job, or like I said, school or sports, things like that, or even money, you know, how big is your bank account? Mm-hmm so when we're talking about value though, you, you hit on it before, but I wanna go a little bit deeper into this.

What do we mean by that? How can we say that people have inherent value? Is that really something that, um, People might disagree with that a little bit. I, I don't, but I, I think, uh, I think it's important to kind of explain a little bit more, so yeah. If you would, yeah. About that, the, yeah, I'd say the meaning of it is that we have an inherent dignity.

That's not contingent on any external factor at all. You know, and even if our, I think for females, a lot of times it's looks, you know, it's based on looks for guys. I think it's more on performance, you know? As in real general sweeping statement. Right. And, but when you take all of that away, there's still like a beauty to the human person, just because we're made in the image and likeness of God.

And so it doesn't matter if, when the wrinkles start to come and, and when you get slower, Running the marathon or, you know, or whatever it is, mm-hmm , then it doesn't matter. There's still a beauty there to, to the, the soul that's like that can't be seen and can't, doesn't have a price tag, you know? And so, and it's actually like, to me, like one of the things that proves the truth of it is actually because when people operate out of that belief and that truth, everything goes well.

And when they operate as though it's not true. Everything breaks down. Right. So, wow. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So to me, like it, it is its own proof. You know, this is, it is its own proof of truth. Like, because when people hinge their, their value on some arbitrary metric that's outside of themselves, then they usually either full of anxiety because now I have I'm self-reliant for my own value or.

Like overextending themselves and then super impatient with people who get in their way, because they have so much to accomplish because they're fighting for their own sense of right to be on the planet. And yet when people start from that place of that, they have inherent value. There's just, there's a freedom and a joy, you know, it goes back to those freedom and joy.

That really flows outwards and it, it's not self consumed, you know? And it's yeah. So it, it proves the truth of it to me, you know, within itself. Yeah. And I've seen that in action. Um, I'm thinking of someone right now who just puts so much received so much of their worth or value from their job. Mm-hmm and I remember this particular person was outta work for a long time and it just destroyed.

It just destroyed them. And once they got back into work, it was like they had life again, which mm-hmm I guess it was a good thing. I don't know how to think about that, cuz it wasn't good before that, but I wish there was this alternative, like why, you know, couldn't they see themselves as a valuable human, even if.

They didn't couldn't work. Didn't work, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And I think that better, we get that worked out before we retire. Right. Or we're gonna be pretty miserable, retired people. Gosh. Amen. Yeah. And one of the things, when you were speaking that came to mind is I think so many people doubt their value because of.

The mistakes that they've made. It's like, well, I've messed up so much in my life. I've mistreated people. I've heard people I've, you know, I have this addiction in my past or, you know, whatever had broken down in their past. I think so much. They, they look at that and they see. Well, I'm not really that valuable.

In fact, I pretty much just deserve to be punished and that's about it. But we're saying here, your value doesn't change based on even your own mistakes. Is that right? Or it might get into murky water there. Oh yeah, no, no, no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Our values, of course, I come in from a Christian perspective.

So I'd say, you know, I look at it like when somebody's wearing a, a crucifix or a cross or whatever, like that's their price tag. Like, that's what they're worth, you know what I mean? And that doesn't change. Their price has been set, set and paid and it's not on them to, to pay it. And the price doesn't, it's not, somebody's going around and res stickering the price on them.

No beautiful. And that makes sense. And the book obviously goes into this a lot more, so we'll keep moving. One of the things I wanted to say, one of the most beautiful things about being a dad now is just that I can, you know, attempt to offer my daughter, uh, what I really wish I would've had. And one of the things that.

You know, I've seen a lot just in my life, especially in ministry, working with people, opening up to me is just that. So often there's so many lives we believe, and I think this would be one of them like we're talking about is like, I'm not valuable. I'm not worth anything. I'm not worth loving. Mm-hmm so one of the things I've tried to do, and I encourage parents listening right now, especially new parents to do this is like, I just.

I have this whole litany. I kind of like say to my daughter, I'm like, okay. And I won't go through all of it right now, but one of the things I tell her, I'm like, Lucy, like, you're so worth loving. Like you're so worth loving. Like you're so lovable and you're so worth loving. And my hope it gets me kind of emotional.

But my, my hope is that that just like seeps into her so deep, like down to her bones, like down to her core that. When she, you know, goes through life, like when she's no longer with us, when she's struggling as a teenager, like she will believe that at her core. And maybe there'll be struggles there. I don't doubt that, but I, but I hope that she has like such that foundation that she just goes through life with such peace, with such confidence, with such freedom and joy and all the things that I think so much of us, so many of us want.

So anyway, I wanted to mention that. Cause I think as, as parents, those of us listening, our parents, we can. Um, speak into those places. Almost preemptively kind of like this whole framework is meant to prevent trauma. We can speak into those places into the lives of our children. Yeah. So real quick story.

So I'm not, I don't know if I shared about it in the book, but a friend of mine when her son was 12 he's 18 now, but when he was 12, I was at one of his football games. He was in middle school. And I'll spare you the story to just kind of condense this, but he was playing football and I was at his game. He did something that was like really outstanding, not a football play.

It was a very human interaction with another person. It was like exceedingly, compassionate and good sportsmanship and just like. yeah, really kind of stand out. And so I text his mom who was sitting in the stands and I'm like, do you see him? And she's like, oh my gosh, I love that boy. You know? And so later it, I was at their house because I needed her to show me something on my computer, cuz she was more tech savvy than me.

And, um, he was heading into his room and she went, she was sitting on the arm of the couch, you know, I'm sitting on the couch and she's like leaning down over it showing me, oh, you need to do this and this. And, um, when he goes walking by, she went, oh, you know, just like to herself, like, oh yeah. I wanted to say something to him after, you know, he'd come home and got in a shower and eaten and all that.

So she, she calls him, you know, she's like Zach and he goes, yeah, mom. And she says, I like who you are. Hmm. I'm like, by the time she gets back to the couch, I'm like ugly crying. You know what I mean? and she's like, oh my gosh, are you okay? And I'm like, that's so beautiful. Like how many, how many people never hear?

I like who you are. Yeah. You know, and, and it's, and it's not to villainize saying good job to somebody. Sure. But that's so much the natural. And so then we can take away, like I have good news because I did a good job and like, that's. That's not it. And it's, it's not to say that's necessarily like inherently, mentally unhealthy or something.

Sure. But, but I think there really is something to focusing on applauding somebody for who they are over and above what they did. You know, the courage that it took to do this or that, or the dedication that it took to do this or that, or the integrity, or, you know, whatever, as opposed to the, the job, you know, make it about their being instead of their doing.

Right. So good. I love that. Yeah. And I think even being particular with your language is important there. And instead of just saying good job, like you said, saying, I like, you know how you are. I, I love how you did that. Or even when it comes to kids, I don't mean to make this such a parenting thing for anyone who's like younger, and who's not a parent, not even thinking about a parent, you can kind of put yourself on the opposite end of this.

And, and I can do that with myself too. And thinking like mm-hmm yeah. I would've loved to hear that. That, that would been awesome. Right. It. Thinking back to how, yeah, so many of us just crave that and, and we want that, but you know, we can say someone did a good job and then, but at the same time distinguish, and again, I've my wife and I are kind of working on this right now, but we wanna do that with our daughter.

We wanna applaud her for, um, her efforts. saying, you know, good job like you did really well. You're trying so hard. Like you've grown so much in this area. Mm-hmm but Mo more importantly, just like applaud her for just the person that she is. Right. And not, you know, even using different languages. Like she's really well behaved.

That's about her actions, but she's so good. That's about her right. Inherent value. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it might seem kind of insignificant, but I think it does, especially after years and years of compounding, if we can speak that into the people in our lives. I think you can have a really, really big impact.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I see it on a yeah. Daily basis when I'm working with people, just the, you can tell. Their, their value of themself is formed based off of whether they, you know, whether it was for getting good grades in school or for being star athlete or being super helpful around the house or being the peacemaker or whatever, you know?

Sure. As opposed to that, there was this unshakeable value that they had, that that was unchanging. And that's, I think that that sense of security is the stuff that like yeah. That peace is made of. Yeah. So good. I love that. That sense of security, cuz so often we talk about insecurities, but the opposite would be yeah, just that deep sense of security.

Mm-hmm I know who I am. I know I'm good. I know I'm worth loving. I know that. Yeah. I have a lot to offer to, to people in my life. Not just for what I can do, but just who I am and so good love this. Can someone who's not religious benefit from this framework. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was where I saw it first was, you know, I was, had been practicing trauma therapy for a very long number of years and started noticing this pattern and, but noticed it, and, you know, in terms of human dynamics, wait, these connection is what people bring up to me.

If they come for a week of intensive. Trauma therapy and bring up anything beautiful. Like it always has to do with connection, you know, to God's self for others. And so realized that first and then, oh yeah. It's about boundaries, valued, known, and openness. Like those were always the things. And so it was, I noticed it in, uh, human to human, like relationship first.

It was only like going back, working that backwards. Like wait, when we relate to ourselves that. Then that fosters like integrity and that sense of like human integration. Right. And then like, wait, this is how God relates to us too. So it was only going backwards that, that I found that that was like really, to me, like the higher authority.

that besides just Margaret saying these things are important, but like, wait, this is the way the Lord relates to us. So there must be something solid about this. . Yeah, like I said, you know, I noticed it in human relationships and it, so it, yeah, it gets us just on the, and you know, human relationships with others.

But again, you know, with ourselves as well, so good. Yeah. And no, I, I think that what you said, it's just, it's a human thing. So even if you know, you're not in a place right now where you feel like God could. Kind of in the equation, then it's just a human thing. It'll improve your relationships and it'll improve.

Mm-hmm , you know, the way you feel about yourself, which is so good. You mentioned the story before of the mom and the son, you know, who kind of learned this framework and he started using it. Oh yeah. Did you have any other stories about people who just really benefited from learning these principles and then starting to live them in their own.

Yeah. Yeah. A couple of people come to mind in particular people I've worked with in treatment and a couple of 'em have I continue to have contact with. and then being able to say how their in their living situations, the people they're relating to that are able to just let go of being so annoyed by things that used to annoy them like on a daily basis, uh, you know, feeling disregarded or not listened to, or overlooked or, you know, whatever it was in different community situations.

And so, because of recognizing what was going on and digging back into. Sense of, you know, if I'm, if I don't feel known out here by this other person and that's really grading on me then, oh, I do. I feel known by myself. Yeah. Okay. I, I am regarding myself as someone who's very good. And yet I still feel the need to, to experience that.

Okay. So I can drop anchor so to speak, like in God, like to get that filled up, if I'm feeling like it's some, you know, like an area that's really lacking and as this person's done that. This, you know, kind of more tendency to complain about that and really kind of let that get him down then. Like it's just not there anymore.

And so he just operates with like this degree of peace and. Man. We just keep coming back to that word. Don't we? But yeah. Yeah. Like it's like, it's almost like not even on the radar, you know, so much so. Hmm. So that's so that's cool. Yeah. Also seen it be, uh, become like the rules of engagement, you know, so to speak in relationships like, okay.

Somebody I worked with quite recently, this was a, a woman and she was able to re. Her own behavior is why she had responded the way she did in the situation to her husband. And then also like to take the same thing and apply it to him and go, oh, these are the things he needs as well. Wow. And then, um, so it didn't just lead to, this is how we need to relate, but it actually led her from a place of feeling hurt about something to actually a place of compassion for him.

And so I was. Wow. There's a lot. Once people kind of, once you see it, you can't not see it, you know, as the necessary ingredients. And when you realize, you know, I think there's that first level of, okay, this is what I need and okay. I can get how this applies to me and how this affects me. But when you go, uh, this is what this person needs to.

And then, then you really got it, you know? And then you're, it's not just about yourself and you really understand more of. Why things happen and you're able to not personalize things when hurts happen, you know, not internalize them as personal. so good. Love it. Yeah. And I'm sure you have a million other stories, which we don't have time for, but do I'm the book has more of those stories.

Yeah. There's I, I'm pretty sure there's good bit of stories in there. Kind of how, how the framework came to, to my mind in particular first and yeah. There's different things in there. And a few words, I'm just curious, how have you benefited from it? Cuz this is obviously something you discovered put language to, but yeah.

I'm curious how this has kind of played out in your own. Gosh. So I'm, I'm the kid from the time I was little, I was always why, why, why, why I was that kid, right? so it's helped me understand why to like so many things, like so many things. Well, there's this line in Batman begins. Okay. Which is a highly philosophical movie.

It's a fantastic, that's my favorite movie. That's my favorite. Oh really? Yeah. I Julia, like you even more natural you too. so, you know, he says like, we always fear what we don't understand. And I just think that's you remember the, the who's a, the drug, the mafia guy basically like, right that under Lord guy and yeah, I.

Relationships can just be so confounding, you know, because people can be so complex and we're all also different from each other, as much as we really have more in common. But when there can just be this kind of like swirl of like, why is a person doing this? Or why is this happen? Or why is this bothering me so much?

Or lots and lots and lots of whys. And so to me, it always goes back to, to two multiple choice questions. It's like, okay, is it a breakdown in connection to God's self or others? okay. And then the next question would be, is it about boundaries, value being known or openness? Boom. So like two questions and I'm able to get to the crux of what's going on in a situation and kind of like write the ship, you know, internally when I feel like I'm losing my piece or something.

And so, yeah, so it's, it's been very, it's been a blessing to me, so good. It almost makes me think of like an analogy of. You know, relating to another person is John Paul. The second would talk about like throwing a bridge. It's like we're walking across a bridge to an island that is another person. And it almost makes me think of this framework is the bridge.

Yeah. That, that bridge is the connection. And if you want the connection, you need these four. Pieces in place mm-hmm right, right. Yeah. What we're, it's what we're made for. Right. So if I go up, you know, if we're in the same place and we're having a conversation and, and I like cover your mouth and nose and then expect you to be able to, to be able to survive and be able to carry on the conversation, like that's.

That's silly. It's not gonna work. Yeah. You know, but we do the same thing on this invisible level in terms of, you know, de depriving each other of what, just what we need in order to relate healthily. Yeah. No, so good. I think that we focus so much on the physical and what's before our eyes and our world and our very materialistic world.

So it's. A good reminder, that there's so much more happening below the surface that can't be seen. So good. Uh, aside from buying the book, what's one thing that you would say someone listening right now who wants to live these principles out, what what's maybe one thing that they can do today to begin living out these principles.

I always think it starts with self-compassion when I'm working with somebody and, and they get to that point where they're able to, to really have compassion for themself in whatever painful things they've gone through. It's a game changer. You can't do that based on just, you know, you're not brimming over with warm, fuzzy feelings towards yourself.

Then, you know, if you have a relationship with the Lord, then that's. You can kind of dig into that, right? His compassion for yourself, you know, for you and for your suffering and stuff. And that's, you know, somebody had asked me once, like, self-compassion, isn't that the same as like narcissism? I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Self-compassion is imitation of Christ. Right? Because he has compassion for us, you know, and I really think being able to. To have that and kind of, even if it's a fake until you make it, you know, kind of at first. Sure. And, and just really growing in that, you know, it's the whole idea. You can't give what you don't have, you know, so you have compassion for yourself.

Really your compassion for others is gonna be on shaky ground. But when you're able to be understanding and accepting and compassionate towards yourself, then you're able to more readily give that instead of always looking to like, to get that need met by others. Oh, that makes so much sense. And I think that's something we, we all can grow in, which is such a good challenge, which I love kind of leaving it at that.

But I did wanna just ask you, I know you're starting a, a new ministry. Tell us about that. Tell us what you offer, if you would. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Um, it's just, I've learned so many principles over the last six, 16 years of doing intensive trauma therapy and so really wanna make those available.

I've started doing retreats for, I've done some for, you know, for priests, for deacons, deacons and their wives. And then, um, most recently I did two for, for lay people and just taking basically the same, because these are the principles. Where health and wholeness happen. They're also the same areas where pain happens.

And so taking the same things and making them available in a retreat format. So we can really kind of access those areas where woundedness happens and I've seen. I've seen amazing stuff happen in a very short amount of time that I just never really thought could happen that quickly. And that's really exciting for me because you know, the kind of work I've, done's been one week with the same person, like for the whole week.

And so to be able to reach more than one person, you know, in the retreat format, Through the course of the retreat has been, has been great. So, so retreats, um, father David, ticker, hoof, who's one of the Tor friers and I recorded an online retreat. That's up on my website doing workshops. We're actually like teaching people, the principles and some actual tools to be able to address.

Pain from wounds they've incurred in the past, but also to be able to relate to themselves and the people in their life, more healthily. So workshop, format, retreat format, online retreats kind of thing. Beautiful speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Excited. Yeah. I'm so excited to see how this grows and just the people it helps.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Did, uh, was there anything else you wanted say. No, no, no, just excited. Just excited. You know, it's been like a dream come true for, it's been a long, it's been a long haul and I love trauma therapy, but I don't know. There's something about rounding the corner as you get older and going wait, like even if I live to be a hundred, there's only a certain number of people I could reach.

So just wanting to be able to reach more people so good. And if someone wants to bring in to do a workshop or retreat, uh, speaking engagement or anything else that you offer, uh, how can they. Yeah. If they just contact me through my website, then we can get the ball rolling. So sacred heart healing, ministries.com, or email me at Margaret sacred heart healing, ministries dot.

Sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes guys. So you have easy access to that, but Margaret, thank you so much. You're great. I, uh, always love, uh, talking with you and I'm excited to, to work with you more in the future. And, uh, yeah, I just wanna give you kind of the last word, any final wisdom you'd like to impart to everyone listening when it comes to connection, when it comes to trauma, when it comes to anything related to that, what encouragement would you give to, to everyone?

Wow. Yeah, I would just really say hope because, you know, I mean, I can talk about all this. Like it's, you know, like, like it's so natural to me, but man, if, gosh, as recently as 2003, which I guess is getting 19 years ago at this point, but in some ways it seems like only yesterday when I was. You know, suicidal for 18 months and hospitalized twice and on so many medications and nobody could figure out what was going on.

So, um, so I would just really say hope because I never thought the degree of, of peace and contentment, joy that I live with. Like I never thought was. Possible this side of heaven. so I just say, hang in there. There's more to life than surviving for sure.

Which of the four principles that Margaret taught us is lacking the most in your life. . And in addition to that, what's one thing that you can do today or this week to grow in that area. Give that some thought it doesn't have to be long. It can be a five or 10 minute exercise, but give it some thought, which of the four principles that Margaret taught is lacking the most in your life.

What's one thing you can do to grow in that area. If you enjoyed my conversation with Margaret, you wanna learn more about her connection framework? Just buy Margaret's book fearless. You can get that on Amazon, wherever you buy books, you can click on the link in the show notes as well. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restorministry.com slash 63.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole. And become the person that you were born to be.