#065: A Tool to Heal Your Brokenness and Your Relationship with God | Bob Siemens

If you’re from a broken family, you’ve likely experienced extra barriers in your relationship with God. In fact, you might not even believe in God because of what happened in your family. Wherever you’re at, we’re glad you’re here.

In this episode, you’ll hear how spiritual direction is a tool you can use to overcome those barriers, heal from the trauma you’ve endured, and become spiritually strong. We also discuss:

• Feeling guilty for wanting your parents to get divorced

• Specific challenges when relating to God, such as rejecting God as a way to protect yourself and the question “God, is this how you really treat people who love you?

• Temptation to suicide

• Personal fears, such as “Am I going to be like my abusive dad? Will my marriage end up like my parents’ marriage?

• How deepening your relationship with God helps you heal and feel whole again

If you’ve struggled in your relationship with God and felt far from him, this conversation is for you. 

Join the coaching waitlist for a counselor or spiritual director

Check out Franciscan University’s School of Spiritual Direction

Links & Resources

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• Bob Siemens

  • Email: rsiemens@franciscan.edu

  • Phone Number: (740)-283-6277

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, meaning your parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they have a really dysfunctional marriage. You've likely experienced extra barriers in your relationship with God. In fact, you might not even believe in God. As one young person told me he doesn't even believe in God because of everything that's happened in his family and wherever you're at.

We're glad you're here with us. And in this episode, my guest teaches us about a tool called spiritual direction that you can use to overcome those barriers heal from the trauma you've endured on a deeper level and becomes spiritually strong. My guest also shares how he struggled with the questions. Am I going to be just like my dad will my marriage end up like my parents' marriage.

He also opens up about how he felt guilty for wanting his parents to get divorced because things at home are so bad. He gets real about his own struggles and his relationship with God, such as how he rejected. God. As a way to protect himself and how he really wrestled with the question, God, is this really how you treat people who love you?

And most importantly, he tells us what he's done to heal his relationship with God. He also talks about his temptation to suicide as a young person. And he explains what spiritual direction is and how it helps you heal and grow. Now, if you're someone who has struggled in your relationship with God and you feel far from him, especially because of what's happened in your family.

You're really gonna appreciate this conversation. This is gonna be so helpful for you. So keep listening,

welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separat. Our broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 65. Now, before diving into the episode, I want to give you guys a sneak peek to something we've been working on at restored.

We've built a brand new workshop. The workshop has titled how to heal from the trauma of your broken family tools and tactics to feel whole again, and thrive. And this is a six hour workshop with short. Practical talks and exercises that make healing simple, and we've put together a fantastic team to deliver these workshops.

And we're thrilled to share this with you guys to help you, or maybe the people that you love or lead to heal and grow. And we'll be telling you more about it in the future. Our first one is coming up shortly here. And if you wanna know more about this workshop that we'll be offering and even discuss, perhaps booking an event at your school or church, feel free to contact us at events at resort.

ministry.com again, that's events@restoredministry.com. I'd love to speak with you about it. All right. I'm really excited for this episode because I get to introduce you to my spiritual director, who has played a huge role in my own healing and my own growth. And I'm also excited because one of our goals at ReSTOR is to make healing simple, to make healing simple.

So often healing is made more complicated than it really needs to be. And so we wanna change that. And as I mentioned, one simple tool that you can use to heal. Is spiritual direction, which you'll hear all about in this episode. But first my guest today is Bob Siemens. Bob is the founder and director of Franciscan university's school of spiritual direction.

He was trained in spiritual direction at the Len Terry center for Ignatian spirituality in Denver, Colorado. The program is run by a religious order called the Oblates of the Virgin merit. You may have. Father, Timothy Gallagher. He's his most well known speaker, author and trainer. And Bob graduated from FCAN university with a degree in theology.

Bob's also held various ministry roles, including the director of evangelization at FCAN university. And he is also spoken across the country. Bob is husband de Shannon and the father of their five. Kids. He loves working out gardening, scuba diving, craft beer, and messing with his kids on a personal note Bob's example in the life that he's led have really been inspiring to me.

He's worked so hard to reverse the cycle, especially as a dad. And he's an amazing father. And what, what I've learned from him really is that I can reverse the cycle two in my own life. And that's absolutely true for. As well. So I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation and to learn from Bob.

So let's dive in

Bob. Welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Thank you, Joey. It's good to be here. I've wanted to do this for a long time. Uh, and I wanna get into spiritual direction talking about that, how it's helped you, how it's helped me. But before we get to that, I wanna start with your story. So like, so many people listening, you, you come from a broken family.

And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated in divorce? Yeah, well, um, growing up, my parents separated several times, so that question is kind of a little nebulous. Um, Yeah. From the time I, some of my earliest memories was my dad being kicked out of the house, um, because of having affairs being gone for weeks on end.

Um, so. I would have to say probably the first time my dad and mom separated was when I was probably about four, five years old. And then, uh, it just kind of continued on and then, uh, they separated. When I was about 18 and my dad moved to another state with my brother and my mom stayed in the state that I grew up in, and then they got back together and then they were having affairs.

And basically make a long story short. Um, they separated, which ended up ultimately leading into to their divorce. And, um, I was right around the age of 25 when that happened. Okay. So wow. Very drawn out. I mean, for. Basically 20 years of your life, this kind of back and forth, and then finally getting to that stage of the divorce.

And then of course that brings a whole host of issues. You mentioned a little bit of what happened, uh, as much as you're comfortable sharing, uh, yeah. What, any details that you would add to what you've already said? Um, yeah, details. Hmm. I guess. For myself, um, from the very, very, very young age, I had this conflicting feeling inside of me because, um, I, I was religious, um, in particular because of, of my grandmother.

And, uh, she lived a block away. I would spend majority of my weekends, uh, growing up, uh, Friday, Saturday. With my grandparents and, and, and my grandma in particular, uh, was the one who would take me to church and, and whatnot. But I remember from the youngest age thinking, oh God, like, I don't wanna live like this.

And having guilty feelings of, I wish they would divorce. I, I wish I wish they were divorced. This is even, you know, so at the youngest age, I just knew something wasn't working out and it always left a haunting, uh, feeling inside of me too. Like, am I gonna turn out? Like my dad, uh, is my marriage gonna turn out?

Like my parents' marriage? Um, am I destined to have affairs? Yeah. So. It just brought up, uh, a lot of really conflicting feelings inside of me. Um, and, and again, one in particular was like, how can I be religious? How can I be, uh, good virtuous if I actually want my parents to get a divorce? How, uh, how sick is that?

And then I, I, I kept that to myself too. Uh, kind of like a, a buried, uh, something deep and buried. That I never felt really comfortable sharing with either that I, I actually wanted my parents to get divorce. Yeah. And that's actually not uncommon from everything that I've learned. I know when things at home are so tumultuous, so many of us, we just want it to end and.

Especially because the popularity of divorce in our culture, it seems like a solution to a really messy, bad situation. And I think most of us when we reflect kind of back on it, especially as we get older, we kind of realize like, well, the ideal would've been for, you know, my parents or parents to. Heal their marriage and to bring stability into the home.

Um, now, you know, sometimes that's not possible, but that's what I wish every couple would strive for. So, no, I, I, I think it makes sense like that you feel guilty to that you wanted all that to end and before seem like the, the way to do that. Um, we, we, we hear that often. Yeah, you bring up something interesting there too, about just like, you know, what good person doesn't want, you know, their, their, their family to be restored and to be healed, uh, right outta high school.

Well, maybe let me just back up a moment. BA basically my mindset growing up was like, I want to be everything. That's the opposite of my parents. Um, in particular, my dad. So I strove for that. Didn't drink. Didn't do drugs, didn't have sex, all those good kind of things thinking, oh, I've. Got my stuff together, uh, right outta high school.

I, I did a year of ministry and, um, was very involved, uh, with that found a lot of purpose and a lot of meaning, although, uh, I would definitely say I was doing it to, to be loved. It wasn't, uh, a total pure motive. I was thinking, well, I will prove myself to God. I will prove myself to others that I am a, a good human being.

And so I joined this ministry and, um, one of the, kind of the mantras you would say, maybe of the ministry was like, Hey, the more you share, the more God's gonna work in your life. So for the first time in my life, I had these brothers and sisters around me, uh, who were encouraging me to share my life and.

It, it proved to be too much for them. My dad was physically abusive, so I shared that, um, I shared the affairs, um, et cetera, et cetera. And at the end of the day, um, because these were all fairly young people, uh, no therapists in the crowd there, uh, good hearted people, but it was ill advised for me to just share.

Um, so openly, so vulnerably. Without them having kind of any expertise of what to do with all that sharing. Um, I was signed up to go on a, a second year of this, this mission. And, um, at the end of the year banquet, one of the administrators pulled me aside and said, Hey. You can't go on a second year. You have to go back home and, um, get family counseling, get family counseling, which is something you just brought up, you know, who wouldn't want that, who wouldn't want to see their family succeed.

Um, but the funny thing was here, here. I was a, at that point in time, a 19 year old, uh, kid, um, still trying to make his way in the world. This guy had no clue. Um, I looked at him and, uh, you know, bold his bros. I was like, Do you really think that if I couldn't have gotten my family to therapy before now, I, I wouldn't have, it was just ludicrous.

He, he basically, they basically just didn't know what to do with my baggage. And so they thought, well, you know, a nice approach would be for me to go home and tell my mom and dad, they needed to get therapy. And we'd. Go together to therapy as a family, I ended up telling the guy to F off to be really honest with you.

um, it was a pretty bold move on my part. Uh, obviously I didn't do the ministry ever again, after that, you know, again, there was that sense of guilt too. Here was here was the ministry. I equated with God with doing the right thing and he's telling me to do something that will. I can't do mm-hmm I can't get my mom and dad to therapy.

And that led to, uh, to a lot of confusion too. Like, who do I share this with? Who can hold the tension of my life and what I've been through? Uh, who, yeah. Who can hold the tension of, of who I am and want to be and have been through. And that was a very confusing time. Yeah. Very confusing time. No, absolutely.

I would have felt the, the same way and. There's a few things there that you said that I just wanted to touch on. Um, one is just the idea that maybe it was your job to fix your family. Like that's such a harmful idea. And of course, I'm not saying that we, as people come from broken families, we have no hand in helping our family.

It's not true, but we're certainly not responsible for fixing our parents' marriage. Like that's their job. Sure we can influence them maybe in little ways, but it is much less to do with us than I think, uh, as said is talked about. And somehow for one reason or another, we feel so responsible for maybe helping them in fixing their marriage.

But that, that's just a really harmful idea. So even the fact that someone else was telling you, like, Hey, go fix your family and then come back. It's like, well, uh, that might not happen. And nor. My role. So I think it is wise of you to kind of shoot that down. The, the second point I just wanted to make was you were just so alone.

And so you were left on your own to deal with life and left on your own to, and we've talked about this before, but it's just so often people like us just feel like, okay, it's me against the world. Nobody's got my back. Uh, I have to figure this out myself. And so I bet that situation where those people who you're confiding.

They didn't know how to handle what you were saying. I bet that made you feel even more alone. Yeah. Yeah. It was a strange feeling of, uh, actually Hm. I felt very empowered in that moment, because like I told you, I told the guy to F off. And I think that was the first time in my life. I actually stood up for myself and was like, you know, this guy was older than I was, but I could see how ludicrous it was that he would tell me to go and get them help when at the end of the day, I mean, my goodness, the only person we can actually help in, in, in this, I I've come to believe in this world as our.

Period. Uh, we can do little things for other people, but the only person we can really help is ourselves. And we typically do a pretty crummy job of that anyway. So why should we not saying that we shouldn't be there for other people? That's not what I'm saying, but it was an empowering moment for me, but the loneliness came afterwards.

Uh, the loneliness came when I went back home and, uh, was with my mom. My dad had been, was gone by that point in time. And I just remember feeling. So incredibly alone, uh, to the point actually, where I, I became extremely suicidal. Um, it was the first time I actually got therapy myself was because I was driving.

I had contemplated, uh, committing suicide, uh, while at work. and I was driving home, um, after work and, and thought something's gotta change. And if it wasn't for, uh, this little counseling place that had this Jesus fish on their, their little advertisement board outside the place, uh, I probably. Well, I may have committed suicide.

I, I don't know, but I pulled in there unannounced and said, I need to talk to somebody. And that was my first time with a therapist was a, a, a gentleman, um, who was very kind and very loving and very supportive and began to help me make sense out of myself. Um, with all that I had been through. He began to give me words to things that I had never had words to before and to, uh, really help me, um, to understand that the way I was feeling was not the feelings of a crazy person, but my feelings were normal for what I had been through.

And that was. Very refreshing the first time I began to not feel so alone in my mind, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And it, I think often that is overlooked. Like just hearing that you're not crazy, like yeah. Actually given what you've been through, this is an appropriate response. It's so freeing.

It's extremely faint. And I know I felt the same way. I know we hear that feedback a lot. When people listen to this podcast or work with our ministry in any capacity, it's like, wow, that's no one, no one said that to me before. And so it's amazing that you, you know, at least had that at that point in your life.

I mean, I bet you wish you would've had it earlier, but. I thank God that it came at that 0.1 tool. Obviously you said that you used to heal and to deal with all this pain and all these problems in your life was counseling. But another tool eventually I became a spiritual direction, both on the receiving and the giving end.

I, I suppose, on. Your healing story was on the receiving end, obviously, but eventually you became a spiritual director. So I'd like to kind of shift gears and talk about that. I'd love to just go and share a story for the next hour, but, um, but I really wanna focus on spiritual direction. So yeah, let's talk about how that in particular helped you to heal and to grow.

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a great, great segue there for me. Um, spiritual direction. Was the ability to have, um, somebody walk alongside of me, not just in a therapeutic role, but, or I'm sorry, the spiritual direction was not therapy at all. This was began to help me make sense out of God, because for the longest time for me, although I had a great love and, and, and respect for God.

I didn't understand him and truth be told, I still wrestle with this. Um, I still wrestle with a thought of how could a good kind loving God really put me in the family that he did. But again, I didn't have the freedom to talk about that. I was scared to talk about that because that's not what a good holy person talks about.

Right. They don't talk about, um, this thought that that God could have screwed. That's that's what I felt. And so I shoved that for the longest time. Um, for me, I mean, even my, my first introduction to, to pornography Joey was from my father. I was 7, 8, 9 years old, and he was pissed at my mom. He threw a Playboy magazine at me, um, said, okay, Hey, it's time for you to grow up and become a man.

I just to piss my mom off, you know? And, um, that, that, that just, just started me on a journey of, of, uh, confusion of, of lost, trying to fill those wounds. And so even in that place there, I was like, God, really? Like, what the hell? Um, is this how you really treat those who love you? So there were all these things.

And I just couldn't make sense out of them. And, you know, in therapy, typically you're dealing with your own thoughts, your own emotions and stuff like that. But in spiritual direction, there, there began to be a, a, a dealing, not only with my, my thoughts and my feelings and my emotions, but also with the concept of, of who God is of who a good loving God is.

Or could be. And I noticed for the first time in my life, a real shift, a shift from saying why God, why God to, where were you? Where were you when I was, uh, You know, four or five and, and, and, and, and, and my mom told me my dad was having an affair and kicked him outta the house. You know, where, where were you?

Uh, when I'd wake up at night and my parents were throwing dishes at one another and screaming, and then it would be two weeks of complete silence, um, in the house because they weren't talking to one another. Where were you? When my dad threw that Playboy magazine at me? And it was for the first time in spiritual direction that I began to, to, to, to hear him clearly say I was, I was right there in the midst of it all.

Um, I wasn't void. I wasn't just sitting back. I didn't just wind you up to let all these things happen to you. And it was the first time in my life. I actually. It felt like the Lord was crying over me as that little boy who was exposed to all these things. God spoke to me. I never meant that to happen to you.

And that was really freeing. And I don't think that that would've happened on my own. If it wasn't. Through spiritual direction. If it wasn't having somebody sit besides me and, and, and, and companion me there, just walk with me, hang with me and the tension of my life and gave me, um, the freedom to, to let God, um, speak to me clear some of the clutter.

Um, that I had in my life, through my wounds, my brokenness, and through my own free will to be able to hear the voice of God, just a tad bit differently. And I think that's really the gift of spiritual direction, uh, is to be able to weed out. What I would say are three voices that are always worrying for our hearts, ours.

Satans and gods and for whatever reason, cuz I, I can't explain it. Gods always seems to be the, the small quiet voice. And so a lot of times we, we tend to not listen to that voice or listen to that voice last, um, spiritual direction has helped me to listen more, uh, attentively to the small, quiet voice that actually speaks truth, um, compared to the other voices.

Wow, thank you for sharing. So vulnerably, and I'm glad you're bringing this topic up because I think so many people listening right now can relate to, to you. And one of the things that bugs me, and I know it bugs you too, is when, um, you know, religious people kind of skip over this. It's the same, like, well, God knows best, God knows best.

It's like, well, this is a deep question that deserves an answer that deserves wrestling with. And there is an answer I'm convinced of that, but. It's not something you should just skip over. And if you know someone listening right now, if you've totally rejected, God, uh, this is something you need to wrestle with.

Like you owe it to yourself to at least give this some thought and just to talk to God, even if you're angry, like let him have your anger. He knows what you're feeling. Anyway. Give it to him, show him. And for those of you, who've maybe. Lived very pious devout lives. Uh, maybe you've never gone here and it might seem kind of scary to you and I get that, but in, in really in order to heal and grow and have a, a better relationship with God, you need to dig into this.

And that's where obviously having the help of a spiritual doctor is so helpful, which we're gonna get into a little bit more. Yeah, I think it is important to say that, like, we need to go to these dark places. We can't just kind of put on this mask, put on this facade and be like, God knows best we're good.

And you know, all that dark stuff that you, you had been through, which is just so, uh, traumatic that needs to be talked about. Yeah, absolutely. I, I, yeah, I really like what you said there about, God's not afraid of our darkness, you know, we are, and, uh, I think that's beautiful. And even just your comment there about maybe, you know, listeners who have rejected God, Hey, Bravo to you that might even sound scandalous, but man, does it ever make sense?

Like it makes sense why people would reject God when they've gone through some of the things that they have gone through. And I think. To me, the rejection of God in that aspect is, is, is actually just a protection. I don't want one more person in my life. Who's actually gonna let me down. So I will reject this individual.

I will reject this person that could indicate. Life, but is really confusing. And again, I think that's another beautiful thing in spiritual direction is, is, um, because you even addressed the real pious listeners who I, I think in some ways have really rejected God or, uh, yeah, rejected God in some ways too, because we cover up actually relationship with God with, with pie.

So there's a certain rejection of, of God in, in, in saying you're actually really not the God that I thought you were gonna be. Um, but I'm not gonna say that I'm gonna ignore that because the Pius, the good thing to do. And I would say that that was me for the longest time, uh, was to ignore all that, because this, this, this doesn't reconcile with a good kind loving God.

But we have to wrestle with it. It's like Jacob wrestling with the angel. We have to wrestle cuz if not, the only thing that's really left is our, is our own just self perseverance. And that, that can again be extremely lonely, always having to take care of ourselves, thinking nobody has got our back.

Nobody really wants our good, um, we're the only ones that can do that and facilitate that and be. So I think you bring up some really good things there. Joey. Really good. Yeah. Likewise. And I'm glad we're kind of diving into this. And one of the things I think's true for everyone is that we have this distorted image of God.

We don't really know often what, who God truly is. And we kind of project our image of him, especially because of what we experienced with our parents. And I know you and I have talked about this in the past, but. I think for those of us who come from broken families, it's like extra true. It's even more distorted.

And so one of the benefits of spiritual direction for me working with you in particular and spiritual duction or spiritual directors I had before you was, UNDSS sorting that image of gotten, trying to see him for who he truly is. And it's still something I'm working on. I've made a lot of ground. Yeah, I, I think that's one of the huge benefits, but I also wanna go back to something you said before that sometimes, you know, it seems like the only way that God communicates is in just a small, gentle, quiet voice, which is kind of frustrating.

it'll be nice if it was more obvious. And, uh, and it reminds me of what CS Lewis said, you correct me if I get this quote wrong, but he said something along on the lines of, in me, Christianity, he said that, you know, God, what is it? He whispers us in our joys. He speaks to us in our conscience and he screams at us in our pain.

Yeah. And I think he says like pain is God's megaphone to Browe a sleeping world, something like that. And, uh, and I, I think man, that, that's such a difficult conversation though, cuz so often we want God to be one way and he's just not. And uh, and that could lead to a lot of frustration, but I do, like you said, have a lot of respect for people who aren't on the fence.

Like they're running in one of the directions. They're either totally rejecting God, which I know a son's kind of scandalous or they're, you know, running after 'em and like trying to wrestle with these things, but the people in the middle. You know, it just kind of, it seems like they get stuck there. And so, um, so I think there is something to be said for people who, you know, are digging into this, either projecting him or, or going after.

Yeah. You know, you bring up something really beautiful about CS Lewis too. And it's so touching to me, if, if for the listeners who, who maybe don't know his life story, he said those beautiful little platitudes about God and about God's voice and. Before he actually, uh, entered into a relationship with his wife joy and, um, again for listeners who maybe don't know it was Joy's, um, dying that caused him to actually have a crisis in faith himself.

And, and, and to really say, Am I actually going to believe these words that I said that, that, that pain really does awaken us, um, to God or, or was it just a nice platitude? I was saying to help, you know, help people just make sense out of their pain, but yet. I haven't lived through it myself. And, um, it's just a really beautiful moment for me too, in, in just realizing that, you know, again, I think you touch upon something else.

How often do we just try to prove to God that we're worthy of love? We, and, and I think through our woundedness, our brokenness, our, our, our, our, yes, through all that we've lived through, um, especially with, uh, divorced, uh, parents and, and, and traumatic experiences and whatnot, that, that, uh, in some ways deep inside of us were constantly saying, I have to prove to God that I'm worth his love because obviously somewhere failed.

And he can't just love me because if he did, he, he wanted to put me in a family like this. And one of the truths that I've, that I am coming to, I shouldn't say that I've come to, but that I'm coming to slowly is that God loves without a, because he doesn't love me because I had good parents or bad parents, or because I was physically abused as a child.

Or not, God loves me, period, but that's something that is super hard. Um, especially through people for people who come through so much adversity, who've experienced so much pain that there's this almost this reward system that we want to set up. to where I I'll earn. God's love. I'll show him that I'm good.

I'll show him or those around me. Maybe your spouse, that I'm not like my mother or I'm not like my father, but in the end it just continues to leave us wanting. But to just sit in that place that God loves me without Acus, he just loves me period. There's something very freeing about that. And that's another one of those places where I think spiritual direction just helps so much to help us understand our image of, of self and our, our image of God.

Uh, the good, the bad, and the ugly of all of it. Um, to come to a place of just understanding who God is. Who I am for God. Mm-hmm, ultimately for me as a spiritual director, that's the first place I go when somebody first comes and sits down with me, tell me, you know, if I was interviewing Jesus Christ on my couch right now.

And I said, you know, Jesus, tell me about who is Joey to you? Joey, what would you say if I were to say, Joey, who is God to you and or Jesus Christ. And he's sitting right here in this room now, what would you say. I always think that's such a beautiful moment of, of, uh, true understanding and clearing away the clutter of who we make God out to be or who we make ourselves out to be.

And then there's this certain place where all the facades just begin to fall between God and us. We are who we are, or as God says, I am who I. wow. A lot to think about a lot to chew on, uh, just in that little bit there. And, you know, we we've mentioned a few benefits of spiritual direction. Is there anything that you would add to kinda what we've already said?

Like something might be thinking like why, why would I go to spiritual direction? But what are those benefits? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I would say the first, um, he's just the, the accompaniment, um, to have somebody walking, uh, with you in the messiness of life. I know that it's just been, uh, something just very, very beautiful for me to have somebody know me and be able to walk with me and the tension of, uh, my, you know, becoming better.

Uh, and, and, and understanding God better to just sit with a trusted individual. Somebody who holds things confidentially, who is non-judgmental. Who can be, um, maybe a spiritual or a spiritual father or a spiritual mother, and I'm not saying replace or make up for, for what our parents have lacked. But that they can just show us, they can just show us love.

Um, sometimes I know when spiritual direct my spiritual direction session is over with my spiritual direction director. All I wanna do is just sit there. I wanna stay there. Um, I kind of feel like the, the, the woman, uh, washing the Lord's feet or, or, uh, you know, Just that sense of like, I just wanna stay at your feet.

I, I can resonate with, uh, Peter, John and James, when they're on the mountain in the transfiguration. And they say, Hey, I let's build some tents and stay here. And I, I, I think that I get that feeling with my spiritual director that I'm held in such high esteem. Um, that I'm, that I'm loved for, for who I am, that I don't have to prove anything.

And there's such freedom there. Um, there's freedom just to be me. Um, there's freedom that God can just be who he is. And, uh, I love that freedom. I love that freedom. One of the biggest benefits for me, um, again, working with you in other spiritual directors I've had, but especially with you, is that just the loving, the affirmation that you receive?

And like you said, so often in our lives, we're deprived of that. And so it's just so freeing to. You know, in a way receive, God's love through your spiritual director, through someone who's there to, to guide you in your spiritual life. And I know in some situations even can become more of like a just life mentorship, which I think is, is so useful as well.

Uh, as we're talking, I'm realizing that it'd probably be helpful for everyone, uh, to kind of define spiritual direction because you know, maybe this is the first time they're hearing it. Uh, so yeah. What would you say to someone who maybe has never really heard of this term spiritual direction? Uh, what exactly.

That's a really good question. What I would like to say, uh, about spiritual direction is that it's, it's a heart encountering a heart. And if you have a really good spiritual director, it's not the directee encountering the director's heart. It's the directee encountering the heart of God. And for me, that would sum it up.

That even though I wanna spend time with my director, I want to like, okay, you know, maybe stay at his feet because I feel loved and affirmed. It's not actually his love or affirmation. I mean, he's a conduit of God's love and affirmation. Yes. I feel it through him. So I have deep respect and love and admiration for him.

But for me, the director is the one who just opens up a door and maybe, maybe it's. Pushing it open just a little bit at first or helping the director. You do that. And sometimes maybe it's just kicking it down. to allow the Direct's heart to finally speak to God again for me, you know, I'll go back to that example of, for so many years of my life, I wrestled with this deep dark, in my opinion, dirty secret of saying God, why.

why, why this, why that? And I was so afraid to be honest with anybody about that, because I had so much anger towards God mm-hmm and it was there finally, where my director was like, Hey, let's kick that door down together. You don't need to worry about saying why. And then he offered me the opportunity, this perspective of maybe changing that.

Why word to, to where. And that was like, that was a floodgate for me. That was healing for me. That was me encountering the heart of God in all of its purity that I longed for all of my life. But I don't think I would've been able to do without a spiritual director. So spiritual direction for me is actually the director getting out of the way of God.

But being a conduit for God being, and having and helping a direct D open a door for God to come in for a heart to speak to a heart. Um, for me, the imagery in scripture is the prodigal son. The father is waiting there for him. The father is seeking him out. The prodigal son comes home. The father doesn't even hesitate.

He embraces him. He doesn't say, Hey, let's first clear the air, nothing. He simply embraces and allow, allows the sun to come back period. And there's something beautiful about that. So that's a, that's just a really beautiful imagery there. One way I've heard you talk about spiritual direction too, is the spiritual lecture is somewhat of an interpreter.

They help you kind of discern God's plan for your life, kind of what God's communicating to you. Uh, but also kind of like you said, poking at those maybe sensitive parts of, of your soul to encourage you to kind of dive into that, to dive in. And it's almost in a way. It's like a doctor for they're like a doctor for the soul.

It's like, okay, you, you know, have some issue here. Let's, let's work on it. Let's heal that. Let's bring that to God. Um, who's the ultimate physician. So I, I know I've found that particularly helpful because so often we're not equipped or maybe not. Brave enough, if that's the right way of saying it to go there on our own, we really need someone to walk with us, especially someone who's trained.

And so I wanna, I wanted to get into kind of training and talk about that for a second. But on the practical side of spiritual reduction, I wanted to mention a few things and of course, love to hear a, you would add anything to it, but typically spiritual reduction looks like, you know, an hour long meeting.

Um, what typically once a month, With your spiritual director and, uh, you know, it can begin with the time of prayer. It can end with the time of prayer and that's just a conversation and, you know, questions are asked and, uh, things are discussed and so on. Um, is there anything you would add on like the practical side of someone who's like, I don't know how this works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very much. So, first off, just one point of clarification that I just wanna say there, you, you kind of talked about that doctor, doctor, physician kind of thing with spiritual direction. One thing I do want to caution people about though, because. A lot of times we can, we can project this onto a spiritual director is that they're gonna diagnose us.

They're gonna look at us and oh, yep. Here's this issue that you need to work on in prayer with God, here's this issue? Here's this a spiritual director should never diagnose you. Because at the end of the day, there, there is, there is no, uh, there's no set plan because each person that, that, that comes to spiritual direction is, is unique and, and, and beautiful.

It's just a journey or in many ways, I like to call it a dance. Um, that might be a little too intimate for people and that's understandable, but I, I find it this beautiful dance where a director is dancing with their directee. Um, but the directee is always the one who is leading because. That leading just points and goes, goes back to God.

I, so I think that's very, very important to, to make sure that your director is never diagnosing you and then saying, you need to do this that's therapy, or that is like a physician who says you have this health problem and you need to take this medication again. The director. Um, approaches to open up a door, uh, to help that individual listen to the voice of God, to ignore shut down, close off Satan's voice that wants to tell us that we're no good, uh, that, that, that, uh, that we deserve these things, et cetera.

And probably the majority of the time to close down our own voices too. Cuz we can tend to be our own worst enemies too. So, so that's one thing there. Um, I would also just say with the practicals, you know, uh, although there's, there's a se there's kind of a, um, with the word spiritual director, it makes, it sounds like the director is going to direct you and tell you this and tell you that the approach of, of, of.

Uh, spiritual director direction that I espouses is, is one of a called a contemplative evocative. So I to ask extremely open ended questions that that gets the individual to do some real soul searching. Um, and why. So that there's a greater self-awareness, but not just for self-awareness, because self-awareness for self-awareness sake, doesn't really lead us a whole, a long ways.

It's always so that it leads to a greater understanding. And then from that, Self-awareness and that understanding to a greater action that we can actually have action in our, in our spiritual lives. Um, you know, and I'm sure this resonates with many of your listeners right there who have gone through even kind of therapeutic healing.

Uh, nothing is worse than going to a, uh, a therapist and, and all it is is, is talk therapy. With, with no real, uh, maybe, shall we say some understanding now, sometimes there's things that happen to us that are completely and totally out of our understanding, you know, tragedies in our lives. There's really no understanding.

That's that point that I was saying earlier about why God, why, but instead of saying where, and then that leads us to that place of action. When we can finally start to be empowered. To, uh, to take control of the things in our lives that we want to take control of, uh, to realize, um, there are certain things that are just out of our control.

And I think a spiritual director does that in the spiritual life as well, creates a place of self-awareness that leads to a greater understanding that helps individual take steps, uh, in action to become, shall we say the best version of themselves or the holiest person that they can. I'm glad you clarified that maybe the doctor analogy isn't quite appropriate for spiritual reduction.

And, uh, that makes sense what you said that one of the ways that I say it is the spiritual director is not a spiritual commander. They're not there to tell you kind of what to do or what God's telling you to do. And so, uh, thanks for clarifying that, uh, one thing that is so important when you're looking for a spiritual director, Is to find someone who's trained in spiritual direction.

You don't just want anyone directing you. So a few questions for you, one, uh, who trained you and, uh, why, why is that important to find someone who's trained in spiritual direction? Yeah, that's a great question. So first off, um, I was trained by the Oates of the version, Mary in Denver, Colorado at the land Terry center.

Great, great place. Um, and they trained me in this method called the contemplative evocative method. Uh, which really changed my life. The reason why it's so important to have somebody who's trained is because we would never want to actually go to a therapist unless they were trained. Why would we entrust somebody with our spiritual lives unless they knew what they were doing?

Uh, we can have all kinds of good intentions, but at the end of the day, uh, especially a spiritual director is entrusted with a. And the intricacies of that soul and the wrestling of that soul with themselves as well as with God. And that has to be treated with as sacred ground. Um, in many ways, you know, I just think of those, you know, would take off their shoes before they entered into the temple.

And, you know, what would our churches look like? Actually, if we did that kind of thing nowadays with, with taking off our feet, as we entered into holy ground, because we knew it was holy ground. In, in many ways, I envision that when I enter into spiritual direction with an individual that I need to take off my shoes, not them, but me because I am entering into holy ground, which is them and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

And you know, when somebody comes to that vulnerably, we, we need to have people who are trained to handle that kind of vulnerability and not exploit it. Now. So many of your listeners have already been through. Why would we want to put them through anything more by not going to somebody who's trained, who just kind of says, you know, Hey, you know, suck it up, buttercup.

Um, get over your, your, your P PTSD, your whatever it may be, because they just don't know. So I would say having somebody who can really practice that evocative method, who can be non-judgemental and this is what good spiritual direction training programs do. They equip a director to handle the intricacies of the human heart.

To companion them to let them know that they're not alone, but that they are, uh, an individual who is always pointing to God. And that sometimes that directee might want to look at the director more because of that again, that love and that affirmation we were talking about before. But a trained director will always point them back to God because they know in the end, it's never about them.

They're on the exact same journey as their directee they're they're alongside of them. They're not in front. They're not behind they're right alongside just trying to get to heaven. And again, I think that's why it's so important to have a training director who has that humility, who has that training, who has that understanding, uh, who can walk with an individual in that way?

That's helpful. And I know we have some people listening who especially wanna help the people that we're trying to help at restored people who come from broken families and becoming a spiritual director is one way you can do that. And thankfully you have a program at FCAN and university that you, uh, where you train spiritual director.

So tell us a little bit about that. If someone were to, uh, go through. What, what does that look like? What's good to know about your program. Yeah. Um, thank you for asking about that. For many of the listeners may know who Rick Warren is. He was, uh, was, or maybe still is a pastor at Saddleback mountain church in, in the orange county, LA area.

Uh, he has this beautiful quote. He says, you know, you know, um, people are gonna. Um, find some of their greatest healing, uh, through your root brokenness and woundedness. And, um, I would have to honestly say that the spiritual direction program here at Franciscan started from that from my brokenness and my woundedness and, and God pointing that out through me, going through, uh, spiritual direction training and being, uh, being directed and.

My director basically handling the wounds of my heart and saying, Hey. Go and help other people heal now through your wounds. And, um, the program here, uh, was founded about four years ago to train people in a three year process, uh, to actually in many ways, use their own brokenness and woundedness to go out and heal the world to bring people closer to Christ.

So, um, our program. Uh, we have two different options. Uh, the most popular is, is a two week intensive for three summers. Um, so we have our first one coming up or, uh, a new one coming up May 22nd to June 4th. And that'll commence, uh, right around that same time for the next three years. And at the end of it, um, an individual could expect to be trained.

One is a spiritual director and two to lead somebody through the exercises of S Ignatius of loyal. Uh, but in particular, what they could expect by going through our program is that they would be trained to be, uh, a director who could lead somebody in the contemplative evocative method, uh, which is basically.

Opening up space for God to get into an individual's life. We've had two graduating classes. It's been very successful. We'll have a third graduating class coming up, uh, this summer. And I really feel like it's the Lord raising up an army of people to just go walk in and with individuals to, to someday, uh, get to heaven.

God. so good. Uh, I'm glad that you're doing this. There's such a need and I applaud the work that you guys are doing there at Franciscan university. If someone wants to sign up or connect with you, how do they do that? Yeah. Great. Um, so one they can, uh, email me, uh, directly, uh, R Siemens, franciscan.edu. It's R S I E M E N s@franciscan.edu.

Uh, you can call me seven four zero two eight three. 6, 2 77. I sound like an infomercial now. or you can just, uh, Google, uh, Franciscan university school of spiritual direction. And there's a lot more information on there as well. Um, with the application general info, any, anything from there, uh, would love to talk to anybody who's interested in, in becoming a spiritual.

Thank you so much, Bob. And, uh, one thing I, I wanted to go back to for a second here is TIUs we hardly talked about him, but so much of this work and Spiritus reduction in general is based on this Spanish Saint. Yeah. Well maybe another time we can dive into that a little bit more, but, um, yeah, for any of you wondering it's it has a rich history and tradition and it's, uh, very, very beautiful.

And the, uh, what Bob was saying for the spiritual exercises, it's, uh, what a month long or so retreat that you would walk through and. It's very beautiful and very, um, it's such an opportunity to grow and to heal too. And so a lot of good stuff there. We don't have time to get into that as much, but Bob, I just wanted to.

Yeah. Thank you again for coming on the show for sharing what you're doing and sharing your story too. Thank you for. Being so vulnerable. I know I learned a lot as I always do from you. And I know the people listening are better for it as well. In closing out, I wanna just give you the final word. What would you say to, you know, a person listening right now who feels very broken?

Uh, especially because of their parents' broken marriage, their family falling apart, kind of going through all that trauma. What encouragement, what advice would you give to, to someone like that? Who just feel stuck and broken? Yeah, you're not alone. You're not alone. And your brokenness. Is not, uh, you're not so broken that you have no help.

Um, that was a lie that I, I believe for so long was that I was so broken. I was so dysfunctional. Um, I was so wounded that I could never truly be loved for exactly who I am, which is a lie. Um, and I think you, Joey and, and, and the ministry restored is doing so much to help people, uh, come to that. To know that they're not alone, their story is their story, but it can be shared with others finally, and that they can find peace.

They can find healing. Joy and hope and make sense in some ways out of their, their sufferings, their deep, deep sufferings. So my encouragement is to hang in there. Uh, you're not alone. Find somebody clinging to somebody, uh, in, in, in some of this trusted individuals, cuz they can help.

I wanna leave you guys with a question and that. What's one thing that's holding you back from a relationship with God. What's one thing that's holding you back from a relationship with God. And what can you do to find answers to that obstacle? That's my challenge for you. Give that some thought, chew on that a little bit, and then come up with an answer, try to find an answer.

And then most importantly, take action. If you're looking for a counselor or a spiritual director, uh, we wanna help you. We're building a network of spiritual directors and counselors that we trust and we recommend. And so you can tap into that network. And some of the benefits of tapping into the network that we're building is it's gonna save you lots of time and effort in searching for a counselor or for.

A spiritual director. We'll also connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need to heal. So you can feel hold again. And then again, like I mentioned, these are people that we vetted that we trust that we recommend. So if you wanna join the wait list for counselor or spiritual director, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching.

Again, ReSTOR ministry ministry is singular. Dot com slash coaching. Just fill out the form of that page and then we'll connect you with a counselor and, or a spiritual director, whatever you request again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 65.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who really is struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

How to Get Over Someone

3 minute read.

You know what’s fun?

Breakups.

You know why?

Because even after the pain of ending a meaningful relationship subsides, the memories you made, the experiences you shared, the intimacy you had . . . still linger for a while.

Wait. Did I say fun?

Terrible. I meant terrible.

There’s simply no way around the fact that breakups are incredibly painful, especially since the relationship can’t be undone. You can’t forget the person overnight; the feelings you have for them don’t disappear into thin air.

The people we meet, the people we get to know, and most especially the people we love, change our lives.

We did love them. We are different because of that—and often, even if the relationship itself was a fiasco, we are typically better off because of it. We grew, we learned, we loved.

Having said all of that, here are some things that have helped me get over an ex and heal from a breakup.

TRY NEW THINGS

Kickboxing, swimming, tennis, a new bar or restaurant, a different show, a new recipe, writing, drawing, a haircut . . . Whether it’s something you’ve never tried before or something you just haven’t done in a while, it helps to bring some freshness into your life and switch gears. In any case, it is always healthy to have something that is “yours,” an outlet that is independent of anyone else.

TRAVEL

It doesn’t have to be across the world or even across the country. Shortly after the breakup, I visited some friends who lived a couple of hours away and members of my family who also were somewhat close by. If you can go somewhere you’ve never been before, even better. Nothing quite gets you out of your head and provides you with a breath of fresh air like a new place. The world is big; sometimes we need to be reminded of that.

RE-EVALUATE YOUR LIFE

This may sound dramatic, but really it’s just taking stock of where you are and where you want to go. A breakup may throw your life plan for a loop, so now is a good time to consider how you’re doing in regard to the kind of person you want to be and what you would like to accomplish in the near and distant future. This could be as simple as taking some time to write down one hundred things you want to accomplish over the course of your life and picking one to start on today. You could divide your life into various areas—physical, emotional, financial, spiritual—and set goals in each of these areas. You could recall your greatest accomplishments so far this year and take a moment to feel grateful and proud.

This kind of process reminds you that, while you cannot control other people, you do have a say in the way you live your life and the kind of person you become. A broken heart is a fresh start, an opportunity to look difficulty in the eye and come out a stronger person.

GET PERSPECTIVE

This isn’t the worst thing that’s ever happened to a person. We all experience pain and difficulty in our lives. We may not understand it (and much less desire it), but it is inevitable and often helps us become more compassionate people. Think of all those before you who have experienced their own share of heartbreak, some in rather horrid ways. Whether you find yourself at the end of a relationship, in a broken marriage, or worse (dealing with war, death, poverty), sometimes it helps to remember that the human spirit is incredibly resilient. If we are suffering, we’re in good company, and our sufferings may not be quite as extreme as we originally thought or felt.

BE PATIENT

It may take longer than you expect to stop thinking about him or her often, to stop wondering if they’ll ever change their mind, to stop wishing things had gone differently. This doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It is an indication of the depth with which you loved and how much you cared for the person. The fact that you loved well and deeply means that you have the capacity to love well and deeply. What a great gift to be able to offer the world.

Through it all, remember this: more than anything, getting over someone requires acceptance—accepting that they are no longer yours, accepting that they really weren’t yours to begin with, and accepting that you will find peace and healing. People don’t belong to us the way a car or a house does. They may walk with us for a while—sometimes even for the rest of our lives—but often it is only for a certain amount of time. After that, we take a deep breath, wish them the best, and let them go.

Breakups are brutal, they really are. I can’t tell you exactly how long it will take you to get over an ex, or even to start feeling okay again. But I can tell you that you will and that this pain is evidence that you loved—the most important thing you’ll ever do.

#064: Your Broken Family and Mistakes Don’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Maggie Kim

One night, Maggie’s mother left her family without any explanation. Naturally, Maggie felt extremely abandoned. Following that night and her parents’ divorce, she hated her mom. All the pain led her to cope by using drugs, drinking, and sex.

Thankfully, her story transformed. In this episode, you’ll hear:

• How all that trauma led her to attempt killing herself

• How she opened up to her mom and dad about the way their broken marriage and divorce affected her

• Why she feared marriage, but after overcoming that fear, she now has a beautiful marriage and four awesome kids

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When Maggie was only in middle school, her parents separated and divorced and she didn't know how bad things were in her parents' marriage until they started sleeping in separate rooms. Eventually she learned that the relationship had turned abusive, but before she really knew what was going on, her mom left one night without any explanation, which obviously made Maggie feel super abandoned that led her to hitting her mom to struggling more in her relationship with her dad.

And so many other struggles. Now, thankfully her story doesn't end there in this episode, you'll hear how at such a young age, she had to choose between living with her mom or her dad. She opens up about what she did to cope with her pain and unhealthy ways like drinking drugs, acting out sexually and stealing.

She even shares how all that trauma led her to such a low point where she attempt. To kill herself. You'll hear what happened in the episode, she talks about the conversation she had about everything that had happened with the divorce with her mom and her dad separately. Some really good lessons in this episode and how to talk to your parents about your broken family and how it's affected you.

And finally, she touches on how she really didn't wanna get married. She was afraid of it because of what she experienced in her family. But now she has a really beautiful marriage and four awesome kids. Complete 180. I have so much respect and admiration for Maggie. She's been through so much, really an amazing sword filled with dark times, but also so much hope.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 64. If you're someone who recognizes the pain and problems face by teens and young adults who come from broken families and you wanna help them.

We wanna team up with you. One of the ways that we help those young people from broken families is by offering speaking engagements at your school, church or conference. At this point, we offer three talks. The first one is what I wish someone told me when my parents divorce, how to cope, heal. And build a divorce proof marriage or help someone else.

And this talk is primarily for students, teenagers and young adults who come for broken families, but anyone who loves or leads them will also learn a lot. And in this particular talk, we cover stories and studies on how our broken families and especially our parents' divorce affects people like us. We teach the young people, coping tactics to help them deal with their pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, we give them evidence based healing, tips, and resources to help them feel whole again. And then we offer practical strategies to build healthy relationships and even a great future marriage. That's the first talk. What I wish someone told me when my parents divorce, the second talk is seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research to the church and time tested couples.

This talk is also for students, teenagers young. It also come from broken families and in it, we cover seven really practical tips on how to build a beautiful marriage. It's not just for people who are married or even close to getting married, but really anyone who wants to get married one day, who, who might want to get married one day, all the content is based on psychological research lessons from beautiful couples and the Catholic church is teaching on marriage.

And we can also offer a secular version as well, or even an evangelical version. If you're. Not Catholic one young woman who is actually on newly wed. She heard this particular talk and she actually listened to it three times in a very short period of time because she found it so helpful. Again, this talk is seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage.

And the final talk is 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separated or divorced practical tactics for anyone who loves or leads teens and young adults from broken families. And this suck is for anyone who loves or leads young people from broken families, whether you're a teacher school administration, pastor youth minister, a family friend, significant other.

In this talk, we offer insights into how a broken family and especially divorce affects that person that you love or lead. We offer some practical things that you can do to help them cope, heal, and grow into the person they were meant to be. And then we also give resources, you can offer them so they feel less alone and ultimately can heal and grow.

And we'll be offering more talks in the future as well. Some of our clients so far have been Franciscan university of Steubenville, Avi, Maria university focused the fellowship of Catholic university students. We've spoken for the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the diocese of San Diego.

Now, as you can tell so far, speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics. We serve anyone who wants us. And so if you're interested in scheduling a live or virtual talk, we'd love to hear from you how just go to ReSTOR. Dot com slash speaking again, restored ministry.com/speaking.

You can view our talks on that page and then you can request pricing, or if you're ready, you can book an event by the way, our pricing is a fraction of the cost of what most speakers charge. And so we love to work with you. You will not be disappointed again. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, to learn more and book a talk today.

My guest today is Maggie. Kim. Maggie is a wife and mother to four kiddos. She became a Catholic convert in 2013 after discovering her love for the Eucharist sacred tradition and the powerful intercessory prayers of the saints as a registered nurse, she has a passion for fertility awareness. The pro-life movement and anything else related to mothers and babies in her free time, she likes to read thriller novels, eat desserts and watch movies with a strong cup of coffee.

Her husband, Paul is a Catholic speaker, so she understands the ups and downs of ministry life, but loves being able to serve in this God-given mission alongside her family. Again, great conversation and amazing story with Maggie Kim,

Maggie, thank you so much for being here. It's great to have you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here before recording. We were kind of talking about how yeah. We just kind of go deep quickly. So if it's okay with you, uh, we'll we'll follow that script. I'd like to know how old were you when your parents separated and divorced?

I. Around. I was in middle school, so I was around 13, I wanna say, uh, when they separated and then they got divorced about a year later when I was 14, 15. Okay. So very formative years, uh, definitely a difficult time. And what, what happened that led up to all that and then of course, through the separation divorce itself?

Yeah, sure. Um, well I think my parents had a very difficult marriage from the very beginning, even before my sister and I were born. They had issues all throughout their marriage. Um, my dad, you know, he was verbally and emotionally abusive. We didn't really see that very often. We would kind of get glimpses of it here and there as kids.

But, um, it was way worse with my mom, you know, they would fight, but it was usually behind like closed doors and we weren't really aware of what was going on. I didn't even really understand or. Realized that they had serious issues in their marriage until my mom started sleeping in a separate room. So we had a guest room in the house and she would sleep there.

And, you know, we were kind of just like, that's strange, but, um, right. They never were open about their issues and never really. Like had serious arguments in front of us. And so very suddenly one night my mom is I, I find her packing up her bags, um, she's planning to leave and it was, you know, it was a very traumatic night.

My sister and I, we were, I just remember crying and begging her not to go. Um, and she, like, she couldn't even look at us. She could barely, you know, she couldn't say anything. She just like had a mission to leave . Yeah. And she was, I just remember watching her, like packing up all these suitcases and, you know, my dad was telling my sister and me, like, don't let your mom leave.

Hmm. Like you gotta say anything to keep her here. And, um, so, you know, we're just like begging her not to go. And, you know, eventually she, she packed up her stuff and she left and that was like, so. Jarring for us. Yeah. Um, we were just like, what is going on? Yeah, it was, it was a very difficult night. Like something that I'll never forget.

And then a couple weeks later she came back and then my parents sat us down and we kind of had that discussion, you know, uh, where we have to, like, you know, they're telling us we're, we're getting a divorce. And, um, at that point they wanted us to decide like who we were gonna live with. Um, so at the time we, yeah, at the time, uh, we were living in orange county in, in Southern California.

And my mom had moved to Los Angeles, which was about like a 45 minute or an hour drive away. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, they're like, so are you gonna live with mom or dad? Like you gotta decide. And. At that point or so. So in those two weeks in between my mom leaving and having that family discussion, my dad, like he was really good at manipulating the situation and telling my sister and, and myself that like, mom doesn't care about you.

She, um, she just wants to go and live her life, like, and just kind of filling up, you know, filling our head heads with like all these lies so that we would choose him. And that's exactly what happened. So it was the fact that my mom had left without any explanation. Um, and also the fact that, you know, we were liking, we didn't wanna have to leave our school and our home and all this stuff.

So we decided we were gonna, uh, stay with dad. So that's yeah, that's when things got real for me. yeah. And, you know, we would do, we did the whole thing, like where we would go stay with my mom over the weekend and blah, blah, blah, blah, which I hated, I, I absolutely hated going, you know, like I would go and see her new apartment and she'd have like all this new furniture and all this stuff, and I'm just like, in the corner, like stewing, like you left us and you're living this new life.

And like, you get all these nice new things. And I just, I hated going. I hated her. I remember like one time just straight up saying to her face, like I hate you and I don't ever wanna see you. And at that point, like we had, like, after that, we hadn't spoken for, you know, a really long time. So yeah. Anyways, um, that, that happened.

I, I live with my dad, um, and he got married shortly after, so. Um, I found this out much later on like, as an adult, but, um, my dad had multiple fairs and then, you know, when they were married and he ended up marrying remarrying, the woman that he cheated with. And so he remarried like very quickly after like the divorce was finalized and yeah, at that point, like I just felt so abandoned.

Um, my mom had left, my dad had gotten remarried and was like off living his life with his new wife. And my sister had gone off to college at that point too. So like she, she had just left. So it's like, I just felt like all this abandonment from like all sides, you know? So yeah. I was very, uh, bitter. I was very depressed.

Um, I, I was, I started to rebel like crazy. Like I. I don't know, I was just like anything that I could do to get into trouble I probably did. Or tried at some point, I, it was like, I was constantly like pushing the, the boundary and, and seeing like what I could do, how far I could go before getting caught.

Cause I, I think, you know, in a way, like I was, I was telling myself, like, I'm not gonna get caught because dad doesn't care. Like he, I was living with him and he was doing, you know, he was providing for, for me and everything, doing what he could, but he was so like checked out. He was so like, I don't know, he was just wasn't emotionally.

For me. And so I, I just figured, like he doesn't care if, if I do all these things, um, I started drinking and doing drugs when I was 15, I was stealing, I was, I was addicted to pornography. I was very like sexually promiscuous. Like all these things to see how far I could go before my dad would actually pay attention.

And so I guess in a way, like, I almost wanted to get caught because then that would mean that he was paying enough attention to me to discipline me or, or whatever it is, you know? Um, and so it was, it was just years of that. And at one point I just, I, yeah, I, I, I guess I, I didn't realize how depressed I was until I tried to take my own life or I, I tried to overdose on, on pain medications.

And, um, it was at that point when I was like, I realized I really needed help. . Yeah. So that's the gist of what went down, I guess. Wow. Thank you so much for yeah. Being so vulnerable. I know everyone listening really appreciates it. It's, I'm learning so much, you know, just listening to you and there's so much to say, but wow.

What, what a pass? Like what, what a heavy thing for, uh, you know, young woman, a girl to go through mm-hmm , especially during those years that are just so formative. I was 11 when my parents separated and it's a lot of similarities to, to your story. And pornography was kind of my drug of choice and it makes sense to me that you rebel so much, it just makes sense.

And, you know, you alluded to just kind of all that being a cry for. And absolutely I could totally see that, you know, kind of wanting the love and attention, wanting the opposite of the abandonment that you experienced and, you know, really not getting that until you got to the point of trying to kill yourself.

Yeah. And it, it totally, totally makes sense to me. I think so often in our world, we see these individual struggles that kids have, like, you know, drugs, sex, you know, alcohol, all this stuff, like suicide attempts, everything that you said mm-hmm and we treat them kind of symptomatically individually. It's like, we treat the symptom, but we don't get to the root of it.

Yeah. And, and I think it's such a disservice because yeah. Maybe you could treat the symptom and it be okay for a little while, but if you never get to the root of it, it's very likely that it's gonna come up again. You're gonna fall into some unhealthy way of coping, which is just so common as you know, for people like us.

Right. So. It just makes so much sense to me. And I've found that suffering to, to hear people say like, okay, you weren't weird for kind of doing what you did. Like yeah. We're not saying that it was good behavior. That sin is a good thing. Of course not, but it just makes so much sense. Absolutely. And it's, I think like, as a child, when you are traumatized, because like your whole world shatters, like everything that you thought was secure and stable and love, it's the whole, like the meanings of all that, like it shatters.

And so as a child or as like, even like a young adult, like, you don't know how to deal with that. If nobody is teaching you in a healthy way, like how to cope and, and it's. Especially if, if feelings of abandonment are there, which most likely they are, it's like, you you're crying out for attention, even if it's gonna be negative attention.

And as a mom now, like, it totally makes sense to me because even for my kids who are toddlers, like they're throwing tantrums and I'm like, well, why are they making such a big deal out of this thing? And that's wrong with you? and I mean, like, that's essentially what we're doing. Like, as you know, as like teenagers or young adults, it's like, you're crying out for attention, even if it's negative attention, even though, even if it's gonna get you into trouble.

Yeah. So it's like, you're doing anything you can to know that. You're like someone is paying attention to you and someone loves you enough to say something. Yeah. Uh, psychia or psychiatrist, or I think he was a psychologist, uh, Conrad bars. He said that he believed that most people, uh, weren't suffering from suppressed emotion, which is what Freud basically said.

He said most psychological problems. Ford said most psychological problems came about because people were repressing emotion and common BARR. Um, he was a Catholic psychologist. He said that he doesn't believe that to be the case. That certainly can be true in some cases. But he said, in most cases, people are suffering when he coined as emotional deprivation, meaning we basically have this hole in us.

That's just longing for love, for affirmation, for, to be wanted. And it just doesn't get filled. And so, because that isn't filled in a healthy way, we look to anything that might somewhat satisfied in an unhealthy way. Yeah. And. That I, I think describes so much of our culture, even people who aren't from broken families, but especially those of us who come from broken families.

Cause like you said, it's so foundational and we tend to think when our families fall apart, we go through life with this expectation of everything falling apart. Like what won't fall apart. What can I hold onto? Which I know we're gonna get into marriage, um, in this conversation, which I'm really excited about because, uh, that just rocks a marriage to think that, oh, this probably is gonna fail one day.

And what I've realized in my own marriage, my wife and I have been to counseling. We talk pretty openly about this, but there's always that kind of fear, even if it's a small voice in the back of your head that, well, this isn't gonna last, my spouse is probably gonna leave me or cheat on me or something mm-hmm and that expectation kind of that impacts the way that we act, which.

Aid and bringing about that reality that we fear right. So it's like this I know, right? Yeah. Go for it. It's so ironic. it is. Yeah. Yeah. So you're exactly right. I mean, like in all the relationships that I had following my parents' divorce, it's, it's exactly what happened. It's like, I would, first of all, like I would do anything to cling onto that person.

It's like, It's like, whoever I was with at the time was like my savior, because they were helping me to like, forget all the pain and like, I could finally like get a chance to feel happy. And so I would do anything to keep that person in my life and, and stay in that relationship. But then in moments where it got, got tough.

It's inevitable in any relationship, you're gonna have moments of conflict and, and hardship. And it's like, I, I just, I knew they were gonna leave me. And so like, a lot of it was either like me just being desperate to do whatever it, it, um, takes to keep them in my life or I would suddenly just shut them out because, um, I'm like, well, if you're gonna leave me, I'm gonna beat you to the punch and I'm gonna leave you first, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just like all these defense mechanisms that I just learned to adopt, because that was how I, like, I guess in a way, like I was learning to survive because I, yeah, like you said, it's like deep down, you think everybody's gonna leave you. And so you do what it takes like you do what, what, what it takes to keep that relationship alive, or you do what it takes to protect yourself.

And in a way, like if you shut that person out or if you leave first, it's like, you, you get you protecting. Yourself. Um, so yeah, that, that was really, um, it led to a lot of like toxic, unhealthy relationships, as you can imagine, um, like the codependency and all this stuff. And it was, um, right around when I met my husband, I, you know, like, I think after so many years of like trying to like drink and like do drugs and forget all my issues and numb all the pain, like I knew that wasn't gonna be sustainable.

Like I knew at some point I was gonna like crash and, and in a lot of ways, I, I, I did have moments of like reaching my lowest points and I just, I was so tired of it. Like it was so unfulfilling and so empty and I, I knew I needed something more. And so like, I, right around the time I met my husband, I also started going to therapy.

And man that like, it, it changed my life. I, it was like the first time I could actually acknowledge what had happened and, and like acknowledge the gravity of it. Like, I remember my one, I think maybe it was like my first or second therapy session with the, with like the very first therapist I've ever talked to.

And she was like, let's talk about your childhood, your parents and blah, blah, blah. And I started talking about the, the night that my mom left, you know, just like I did a few minutes ago and I started laughing. It was like the strangest thing, like I was sharing about the night and I started laughing and.

The therapist looks at me. She's like, you know, that's a really interesting reaction to the story you're telling, because you're the story you're telling is very sad and very traumatic. And, um, I just, I find it interesting that you're laughing and I was like, what is wrong with me? Like, I must be going crazy.

um, but it, you know, it's like, again, it's like those defense mechanisms or those coping mechanisms where you're trying to you're so like, You can't like face the, the trauma. And so you, you make light of the situation by laughing about it, right? Like a lot. That's why a lot of like comedians, I, I feel like that they learn how to be funny because they have issues or they have trauma in their life and they learn to like, make light of the situation.

Right. But yeah, so in a way, like that's what I was doing. And, and it was like the first time I like looked at how serious it was and how traumatic it was and how that affected me. So going to therapy was so eyeopening. And then finally, like, I, you know, I met my husband and he was the first man in my life, you know, like in a, in a close relationship where, like I knew he was a good man.

Like, I, I didn't have very good, like positive male figures in my life. At least like, not like close enough to really have like a deep relationship. And so there was just like, I just knew in my heart, when I met my husband, that he was a good man. Um, and that was very healing for me because for a long time, I didn't think that was possible.

Like, I didn't think that men were capable of, you know, being trustworthy or being like loving or, you know what I mean? Like it's just a hundred percent. Yeah. It, it was, um, I was like, wow, like good men are out there. . Yeah, yeah. And no, it, it makes sense. Given what you had been through that you would kind of expect every man to, yeah.

Maybe on the surface they would look good or fine, but behind closed doors, as you learned. They wouldn't be good men. So no, that probably was pretty earth shattering for you, which is beautiful and amazing. And mm-hmm yeah. I want to kind of dive deeper into that. I do wanna kind of close the loop on your relationship with your parents as much as you're comfortable sharing.

Cuz I don't wanna leave people hanging on that. They probably yeah. Right. What happened? So yeah. I'm just curious kind of how has that evolved over the years? And then yeah, I, I have another question, but let me let you answer that first. Okay. Yeah. It took a lot of time to heal a lot of work for sure. And a lot of like self-awareness I think in processing, like what had happened and how it had affected me and then finding the courage to talk to my parents about it.

I think that. Changed our relationship for better or for worse, like with my Mo. So I guess I'll kind of like talk about my mom first. So like I said before, sh you know, we had, I, like, I had so much hate in my heart for her, for leaving us. And, oh, at one point I, I went to go live with her because things at home with my dad were just really difficult.

And so I didn't know where else to go. I just, I seriously like called her up. I was, I think I was like halfway through my senior year in, in high school. And, um, I called her up and I was like, I just, I packed a bag and I have nowhere to go, like, can I come stay with you? And I, I hadn't talked to her in a really long time up until that phone call.

And she was like, of course, like, come over right now. Like, you don't need to explain anything, just come. And so then I started living with her and it was awkward at first because I, you know, we still like hadn't resolved anything, but fi like slowly, little by little, like that door opened up. And as I started going to therapy and kind of processing what had happened, I.

I remember sitting down with her one day and just sharing everything, like everything. I felt everything that she did that hurt me, um, like asking her what happened, like what was going on with you and dad, like what happened in the marriage? And we just had this amazing conversation where she was so open and honest and vulnerable and, you know, like we just had like an opportunity to share and to apologize and forgive each other.

And in that conversation she had even like said, you know, I made mistakes. Like she owned up to her own mistakes too. Wow. And she was aware of how much it hurt me. She was even. Aware of how she had hurt my dad in the marriage. And she expressed that she regretted it and, and I think that conversation was so healing for me and it allowed me to move forward and move forward to forgiveness.

And then, and now we have an amazing relationship. Like she, I, I can't imagine life without her. Like right now we live in two different states and I'm like, and she's planning to move over here. And I'm just so excited to, um, you know, be like 20 minutes away from her now. And so yeah, we have a great relationship and.

What also helped a lot with that was when I became Catholic. I, I converted and became Catholic when I was 23. And, um, I started learning about our blessed mother, mother, Mary, and I, I know not everybody who's listening to. This is Catholic, but I just started learning about her and like growing up, I, I didn't know much about her.

I grew up Protestant and any, like any mention of her was very like negative. And so I was finally starting to like, learn about who. The mother of Jesus was, and kind of like starting to have a relationship with her as well. And I think that really helped a lot of, kind of like those mother wounds that had been left in my heart.

And I mean, that's like a whole nother story, but yeah. So I, I think that allowed me to just find a lot of healing when it comes to my dad. Um, it's kind of a little bit of a different story, you know, like I kind of had that same opportunity to share with my dad, like, just like I did with my mom. I, you know, told him everything that I had experienced and how I had been hurtful and all this stuff.

And it was, there was a very different reaction and I went into it knowing like, not expecting. Him to react in any sort of way. I was just kind of open to like whatever he was gonna say. Um, but he's very good at like, he's very good at blaming other people for, for his mistakes and just kind of, he, I, I think he, he was just very caught off guard by that conversation and he was, he wasn't very willing to kind of own up to it.

And, um, yeah, I don't know. It was just not a great reaction, like, and I was fine with that. Like, I, I just, I went into it knowing like, you know, if he doesn't react the way that I'm hoping to, like, that's okay. It doesn't mean that I have to like hate him, but it certainly affected our relationship. Like it, I'm definitely not as close with him as I would like to be.

I, I mean, he's changed so much, like he's. I know he's a good man and he's, he's changed in so many ways for the better, but, um, I still kind of keep my heart guarded when it comes to him. Um, I don't really, um, we, we, you know, interact maybe like a few times a year we'll call or do like text, um check-ins but, um, nowhere near like the kind of relationship I had with my mom and, and that's okay.

Like, I, I, I think like, as I get older, like I, I'm learning to be more okay with that. So anyways, that that's kind of like, I, I guess that's just kind of how ive ended up. Yeah, no, I mean, that's so beautiful with your mom that you were able to find that resolution and build a beautiful relationship. Yeah.

Like you have right now. And what a man, what a road you've been on and I can relate so much with. Dad, your, your relationship with your dad. It's very similar in my case. And one of the struggles there is exactly what you said, you nailed it. Like he has a really difficult time taking ownership. Yeah. And I love my dad, you know, just like you said, you love both your parents and you know, you don't hate them.

I don't hate my dad. But if I'm honest, that unwillingness to take ownership for the problems that he caused has damaged severely. Oh yeah. His relationship with me and all of my siblings. Yeah. Like I, I could go into that for an hour. It's it's so sad. And so any parents listening? Mm-hmm I know we have parents listening, cuz I know you wanna, you love your kids.

You wanna help your kids. You wanna figure out how to help them through this really difficult time that you're going through. You've been through and you know, just like we just learned from Maggie a second ago, take ownership. take ownership. And I think a lot of people who refuse to take ownership maybe are afraid of.

Turning people off or getting disowned in a way. But I, I honestly think Maggie, like the opposite happens when people take ownership. It's like in my life, when people have taken ownership for the bad things, they've done the way they've hurt me, I just have more respect for them. And it tends to heal the relationship, kinda like you said, with your mom.

And so you can always make excuses parents, but I, I think that it takes a lot of courage to just own up to your portion of what happened. And it doesn't mean you have to say that what the other person did was okay or acceptable. That's, that's not the case, but just take, take ownership of what you contributed to it.

And I don't mean to single out my dad, uh, my mom, you know, in similar ways has had a hard time taking ownership. And so mm-hmm, , it's, um, it's certainly been a struggle, I think, to work through a lot about that. But tho those conversations I think have been really good. So I, I did wanna ask you though, would you advise.

Everyone listening, who, you know, comes from a broken family, like you and me, would you advise that they would have that conversation with their parents? Are there any situations where maybe you wouldn't advise. That's a good question. I would hope that for most people they would have an opportunity to have that conversation with their parents.

I just, I think it is so it's so like an important aspect of the healing process to be able to like share and be vulnerable and honest with the people who have hurt you and, and vice versa. Like, like you were saying, they. Taking ownership of your mistakes is, is so essential because it, it allows that that relationship to go deeper because you're, you're making a decision at that point to be vulnerable.

And when you're vulnerable that opens the door to like intimacy and a deeper relationship. And so, and so when they're, when they choose not to do that, it it's very clear, like where they want the relationship to stay. And so I, I would, I hope, and I pray that for listeners who, you know, who are dealing with their parents' divorce, like that, they get to have an opportunity to do that.

There may be situations where that is not healthy. Like if their parents are extremely toxic and, and abusive, or I, I don't know, like if. If it wouldn't, if it would lead to more harm to have that conversation, maybe like, it wouldn't be a good idea, but I think generally speaking for most cases, I think it, I think it would be a, a great place to start for healing.

I agree with that. And I, I think you deserve to know what happened too. It's always a tricky balance and I'm sure we can go into this a lot, but we'll, we'll try to keep moving, but it's always a tricky balance. I think for parents to figure out like how much to share with their kids. I remember my mom when I was 11 sharing a lot of details that looking back I'm like, I don't know if that was the best, to be honest.

I understand. Like, I'm glad I know, but, uh, man, it was earth shattering. And so yeah, at the same time, I think of the alternative like, well, what if she didn't share those things? What would've happened? I probably would. Figured some stuff out or tried to find answers. And so mm-hmm, certainly a, a tricky situation.

Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because that's one of the questions I asked my mom, like, why did you leave without saying anything? Yeah. Like, why didn't you explain anything to us? And, and even like, just tell us how you were feeling. And, and she was, you know, she, and I think I understand her a lot more now as a mom, myself.

And she said, um, that she wanted to protect us. Like, she, she didn't know how, like you said, she didn't know how much to share, because once you kind of opened that can of worms, it's just like everything. Like we would've known everything and that was, it may have been too much, but at the same time, it's like, just even to have like a little explanation like that, would've been so helpful for me to make sense of what was going on.

And even like now I, in our. Current relationship. Like I'm constantly trying to tell my mom to like, just tell me how you're feeling like open up, like, cause she's, it is just kind of her personality. And also like culturally, like it's, it's not very like common to be like emotionally open to your, with your children, um, as a Korean.

And, and so I'm constantly telling her, like, I wanna know like what is going on? Like even the bad stuff, like even the, like the negative feelings, like I wanna know those things, because that allows me to feel closer to you. And so that's just, that's something that we're like always working on in our relationship.

So yeah. It's and when it came, comes to my dad, that there's another thing I wanted to share that came up. Um, it, I think when it comes to my dad, like, like you said, I, I, I love my dad. Like he, um, I, uh, there's still a lot of hurt there, um, that I think like, I, I might always have to deal with, but I still love him.

And I think something that was really helpful for me to like, get to finally get to this point is I remember like one night I was praying and I, uh, I was at this, I think it was at a time in my life where I was just going through a lot, like processing, going to therapy, all this, all these things. Yeah.

And I was just asking God to like, give me some way to heal or like, like let go of all the hate that I had, um, for my dad. And like, I remember kind of in my prayer, I was imagining myself, like at the foot of the cross, you know, I'm like looking up at Jesus, hanging on the cross and I'm on my knees and I'm holding my hands up like this.

And I was like crying and, and just like. Being aware of like the mistakes that I had made cuz I, I, you know, I struggled a lot and I made a lot of mistakes and I'm telling, I was telling God, I'm sorry. And I remember like kind of having this vision where I like looked to my right and my dad was standing right next to me in the same position on his knees with his hands up like this.

And it dawned on me that like the love that God has for me, he has that same amount of love for my dad. He doesn't love me anymore. He doesn't love my dad anymore. It's like, like the SA the amount of love that he has for us is equal. Even though it's like personal and intimate, like for each of us it's he loves my dad and he's forgiven my dad.

Like just as much as he's forgiven me. And so that was just like, so eye-opening, to me that. I, I can be capable of forgiving my dad too. And yeah, I mean, like going back to, you know, sharing details of, of like the divorce, as I learned more of, of what had happened in my parents' marriage, like it would bring up a lot of those feelings again, of like her and abandonment and just like shock at how, like my dad treated my mom, but like I could, I was still able to like, go back to that vision of like, God still loves my dad.

Like he loves him so much. And so I can love him too. Wow. You're making me tear up this beautiful. Oh gosh. yeah, no, it it's really, really beautiful. And I think there's something so heroic in everything you just shared too, because so many of us get so stuck in the hate. Yeah. And it just leaves us stuck in life, frankly.

That's what I've seen and experience. And so I think there's something so freeing about forgiveness and we've done, you know, episodes on forgiveness and yeah. Um, I, I think that's something that is really difficult, but worth going into, I wanted to ask you, what would you say to your parents if they were listening right now?

It's a heavy question. yeah, it is. You know, I, I think I've, I've said like everything I need to say yeah. Like, thankfully, like, I, I did get a chance to do that, so, but yeah, I, I think I would want them to know that, you know, what happened. Was not okay. Like it, it caused a lot of pain and, you know, we're all trying to still heal from that.

And, and maybe we will continue to work on that until we die. But I don't know. I guess I just want them to know that I love them. I think that's ultimately like I am hurt, but I still love them. And I think I have like a better understanding of why it happened and, and why they felt the need to like, make the choices that they made.

Not saying that. It was okay. But yeah, I think I can understand the pain and the turmoil that they were going through. It, it kind of prevented them from seeing anybody outside of themselves. And I can relate to that. Like, I've had moments too, like as a mom and as a wife, like I've had moments like that too, where I, I, I, all I can think about is myself and how I'm feeling and how I'm struggling, and I don't care about anybody else, you know?

And, and those are, you know, those, aren't my proudest moments, but I can understand why my parents had those moments as well. So yeah, I guess I would, that's what I would say. Like, I understand like why you did what you had to do, doesn't make it okay. But I still love you anyway. So good. I wanna shift gears with the time we have left to marriage.

Sure. Okay. So it it's really inspiring. I just first have to say. How beautiful your family is. Um, your marriage is, I'm sure it's not perfect, but none of us are , but it's, it's just really inspiring to see. And, you know, I knew a little bit of your backstory. Um, there's a great article that you were, uh, wrote for blessed Ashi it's, uh, nonprofit ministry, uh, for women, right.

If I'm getting that right? Yes mm-hmm and, uh, and we'll, we'll link to that article in the show notes guys, but, uh, hearing a little bit of your story through that. And then now hearing you share more deeply here, I have so much respect for you and it's just amazing. Just the life you've built, the marriage you've built, the family you've built.

I, I mean, I bet that if you were to go back to that, what 15 year old self, you probably wouldn't have thought that you could ever have what you have now was that right? Am I oh, absolutely. I didn't. I was like, I'm never getting married. Like, I, I was convinced that like, all marriages were gonna end, you know, like they were all going to fail or that all men would cheat and all this stuff.

So like, yeah, I it's. Thank you so much for those kind words. Um, yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. Like how, um, how I got here and I have four beautiful kids and a very loving husband. It was definitely like, um, marriage is not what I expected to be like in, in good and bad ways, you know? Sure. Like it's so much more beautiful and like profound and sacred.

And it's, it's this beautiful union that, you know, we come into and then we like have children from it. It it's, it's amazing. Like, I, I, marriage is so beautiful, so I don't wanna. I don't want us to forget that, but it is so challenging. It is. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's way more challenging than I thought it would be.

Even from someone like who experienced my parents' divorce and didn't wanna get married. Like I had no idea what I was, what I was getting into, you know? Yeah. But it's, it's good. Like, I, I think, you know, when, when I saw, when I look back at my parents' marriage, I, I think of the way, like they hardly fought in front of us.

They didn't, they, they, weren't very good at teaching me how to resolve conflict and how to like have healthy arguments. And so. You know, when I got married and we started having fights, you know, like, and having arguments, like, of course that's gonna happen. But every time that happened, I was like, oh my gosh, like we're doomed.

Like our marriage is doomed to fail. I'm gonna repeat my parents' mistake, blah, blah, blah. Like all these fears would come up and. I got really good at avoiding conflict. Like I would just, I would just do whatever it took to like, not go there or if it did get there, I would just shut down and like hide in, in my little shell.

yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and so that obviously, like, that was so frustrating for us. Like that was something that would come up repeatedly, like where my husband is. Like, we're trying to like figure something out. We're trying to resolve an issue. And I'm like, I refuse because if we go down, if we, if we try to like talk this out, like we're just gonna keep fighting and then we're gonna, you're gonna leave me, you know?

Um, and that was like the message that, that, like I was given. And I would like tell myself that, like, if we, if we keep fighting, like we're gonna end up in divorce. And so it was, yeah, it was just a really, like, I had to shift the way I, we view conflict, like. Conflict is gonna happen, like regardless, like it's, it's inevitable.

absolutely. Um, yeah, and I mean, it it's just like any two people with their own issues and their own baggage. Like when you come together, like issues are gonna come up, like let's just, let's just accept that. Right. yeah. Amen. But for me, it was like really hard to accept because I, I thought like our marriage had to be perfect.

Like we couldn't ever fight, we couldn't ever argue. Like, and so over the years it's been, it's been just very surprising to me, like how conflict would actually lead to resolution, which would actually lead to me feeling even more loved and like even more intimate with my husband, because like, I could be so vulnerable.

Like I could show him. All the sides of myself, like the good and the bad and the ugly. And he would still love me. And like, I could, I could just be totally raw and open with like all of the issues or like with my past or whatever you wanna call it. And he's just like, IM not gonna leave you. Like I'm , you know, like he, it was like, he would prove to me that he was fighting for me and he was fighting for our marriage, even in those moments where I was so ready to give up.

When we would just have arguments that seemed to like, not get anywhere, I'm like, I'm done, you know, like I was just so ready to like, just give up and he's like, no, I'm not giving up. Like we are gonna figure this out, you know, . And, and that was just so like, it was just not what I expected and. It, it just ended up with me feeling even more loved, you know, like knowing that I could be truly myself and he would love me.

So yeah. that's so I know that's so beautiful and I bet, I bet that just cuts to the core of your heart when you hear him say something like that, because for so long, you just, you know, like you said, you assumed that anyone who ever loved you or maybe said they loved you would eventually leave you and abandon you.

So mm-hmm, so, so beautiful. You touched on the struggle of conflict, uh, you know, you and I both know, and everyone listening knows that when you come from a broken family, relationships can be extra challenging. Yeah. And you know, similar with you, I was trained. It's kind of funny to say it like that, but we really, I think, need to talk about like this.

I was trained very poorly to handle conflict. Yes. And that training came from the school of love that I went through in my family. Right. Um, which sadly was very broken. And so when it came my turn to build my own marriage, oh yeah. I, I was still lost and you know, I'm still, we're still figuring a lot of it out, but yeah, we, it is beautiful.

Those situations, like you said, where you. Have the conflict and then resolve it. Cause the way I saw it growing up was mom and dad would have an argument, usually get loud and then one or both of them would just walk away. Maybe they resolved it later, but us kids never saw it. And so we just kind of got this bread into our DNA that like, well, that's just kind of what couples do is you fight, you go your separate ways and things never get resolved, which is obviously a recipe for disaster in any way.

right, right. Cause you're like, what does it even look like to have like a healthy argument and to come to resolution? Like it's just, it was never modeled for us. Exactly. Yeah. And I think people who don't come from broken families, um, might struggle with that. And anyhow, I, we, we can go into that maybe a little bit later, but I, I was curious like what, what other struggles have you faced in your relationships and in your marriage that maybe we haven't touched on already?

I think just kind of the way we cope with our emotions. Like I. I learned to adapt to my situation with unhealthy coping mechanisms. And so it's very hard for me not to wanna jump back into those things now, like when I have conflict in, in my own marriage or with, within anybody, like it, it doesn't even have to be within marriage.

Like if I'm, if I feel like conflict with my sister or my mom or with God, like it's like, I will immediately like revert to kind of like the way that I coped back, you know, when I was dealing with my parents' divorce. Yeah. Not, and, and not even like actually going through with it, but like wanting to do, wanting to go back there.

It's so attractive in those moments. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, when you're young, when you experience your parents' divorce and you're young, it's. Your, I feel like your brain is just like UN survival mode. Yeah. And so it like it, like I was talking about this with my therapist. It's like, it, you literally, your brain will rewire itself to survive and to protect yourself.

Wow. And so it's like all that work and therapy that I was doing, it, it, it was like rewiring my brain and changing those messages that I had told myself. Like, if you, if you like go and do these things, like you'll feel so much better. You know? And like, obviously they're not healthy ways. So it's just like, I had to learn how to like rewire and then like, figure out what can I actually do?

Like, what are positive and healthy ways to deal with this situation and to cope with, with like my emotions, like think having control of my emotions, or like being able to like regulate my O own emotions was something that wasn't taught to me. And so like now as a mom, it's like, it that's something that like, I struggle with a lot, like with my kids, like learning how to regulate my emotions so that we can help them regulate their emotions.

Like if, yeah. If they see me flying off the handle, like they're gonna, they're not gonna know how to deal with that. And they're gonna also fly off the handle, you know? Sure. So it's just like, yeah, it's just, um, I think. I think the beauty of all of this, like as hard as it was and as painful as it was, it brought up, it, it like brought about so much self-awareness and being aware of the pain that I felt, it helped me to realize, like, I do not want this to happen to my kids.

And, um, and I don't want this to happen to my marriage. And so it's like, I think in a way it was like a, a way to kind of grab the, the power back and be like, I'm not gonna let this happen. I have the power to make choices now to prevent this from happening with my own family. So yeah, that's, that's something that, you know, we're, we're always working on and sure.

I hope, you know, like I know we will continue to work on. Absolutely. And I've seen people, especially who maybe are a little bit further than us along in the path of marriage and family. Um, I've seen them just fight like hell to not repeat the cycle. Yeah. And I hear the same thing in you, and I don't know if anyone will truly ever understand how difficult it can be to like, fight against that.

But, um, yeah, it's so worth it and it is beautiful. And I know we have a baby girl and I just like, love her more than anything in the world. And I, uh, yeah, she's so motivating for me, just like, man, I, I just wanna give her the best of everything and I just don't want her to, you know, have to deal with what my siblings and I had to deal with growing up.

Mm-hmm and so, yeah, I can see how that that's so motivating. Were there any specific lessons or skills that you learned again, you mentioned learning how to handle conflict in a healthy way. Were there any other lessons or skills that were maybe the most valuable in overcoming those struggles that you, you faced?

I think being aware of how I, um, how, how I view, I think for me, like conflict was the biggest thing. Being aware of how I deal with conflict, like gathering tools to kind of go against what my instincts are and to do the healthier thing. Like my husband and I came upon, uh, the Gottman Institute. Have you heard of them before?

Um, John, John Gottman? Yeah. I mean, great work. I don't know if our listeners know, but I love their work. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, just really quick. It's there's um, I believe he's a psychologist. He, he and his wife, I may be wrong. Um, but they have studied married couples for years and years and years and, and studied the way they, um, they argue and how they address conflict.

And they've like somehow have come up with like, A way to like, I, I guess they say that when they, um, like observe how couples argue, they have like this like a 95% accuracy rate where they can tell if they're going to end up in divorce or not. Wow. And it's just like, whoa, like so much. Yeah. Like there's so much that, um, like just the way that you address conflict that can like make such a huge difference.

And, um, and they talk about the four horsemen in, in conflict. So like, these are things that like drive a wedge between you and your spouse and, and can possibly lead to divorce. And, um, do you, do you know, the, the four horsemen are, I, I know one of them is like, um, Can you, can you remind me of that? Yeah, no, no, you're totally fine.

It, it is. Some of them are hard to, to remember. Um, but the, the first one from memory is, um, criticism. Yes. And, and the difference between criticism and maybe critique is that you're attacking a person as opposed to, uh, giving feedback on a situation or something like that. Right. Or their like behavior you're attacking their character and not their behavior.

Exactly. Right. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And then I think one was like defensiveness. Yeah. I think, yeah. I think the second one, um, I think defensiveness is three. If I remember right. You correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, the second one I think is really related to criticism, which is contempt and a Gotman defines it as the, uh, psychological or the intention to psychologically harm.

Your spouse. So it's kind of, Sadis sadistic in a way. It's like we are in a way trying to get back at them for hurting us. Yes. And then, and then defensiveness, like you said, which yeah. Take it away. Yeah. And then the, the last one was, um, stonewalling, which is where you, you build up like those walls around you and you don't let any, you don't let your spouse in, you don't let anybody penetrate that, those walls that you've built around you.

And that was like, that was the one for me. And so I, I think like just being aware and. Having resources, like going out and, and finding resources and get like, gathering like those tools that we could put into our tool belt so that when things come up, we can remember, we can, we can learn, we can grow. So, yeah, that, that was really helpful for us.

I think for my husband too, like, cuz he comes from an intact family and I know you, you said you wanted to talk about this a little bit where please. Yeah. They, you know, they don't, they don't fully understand like what it's like to be a child of divorce and, and they can't like, they will never fully be able to understand because obviously they haven't gone through it.

But absolutely. I think for my husband, if I could speak to anybody who's in that position, my husband's position, I think what's, what's so helpful. He didn't try to like, solve my issues. Like he wasn't there to fix the problem or to be my therapist. Like, like that's not his role. And it, he was simply there to like, just listen.

Like I think for me, like what I needed to do was just to like share and to let, let it out and kind of have it out in the open and he would listen. And yeah. So I, I think if I could speak to anybody in that position, like, you don't need to fix their issues. You don't need to be there to like fix their family situation.

All, I think all your spouse needs is, is like to know that you're there, that you support them, that you're listening. Um, being a good listener is like, is so important. And to know like that. Like their pro their issues and their family history. It's not too much for you. It's like, it's not too like too much work, you know?

Like, I think that was something that was so, um, that was a big fear for me. Like my husband, like he's, he doesn't wanna deal with all of this. Like, this is too much for him, you know? And it is just, he was just like, you know, proving over and over and over again. Like, no, like I'm here to stay. Like, I'm, I'm here with you till the end.

Like it, it doesn't matter like what you did and, and you know, like what the family situation is. It, it does matter, but it's not gonna change my love for you. Beautiful. Maggie. We're running outta time. I don't wanna keep you forever. We could talk forever I'm sure. Sure. And we'll have to have you back another time, but, uh, if people wanna follow you, how could they do.

You can follow me on Instagram. My, um, handle is at Maggie Kim 49, or you can email me. My email address is M Y E E 49, gmail.com. Um, and I'm also, I, um, contribute blogs to blessed to she, um, which is a great, amazing ministry and organization. And so if I, um, you know, write blogs for them. So you could also find some of my writing there too.

Sounds awesome. Was there anything from blessed to she or anything that you've created that you kind of wanted to make people aware of that maybe would, would help them even just grow as a person, even if they don't come from a broken family? Oh, um, nothing personally, like I've, I've written some blogs here and there, there, there is, um, a blog that I wrote about Saint quotes for broken families.

Um, which I think resonated with a lot of people, but yeah, I. So, this is not something I've done personally, but they, you know, have created like devotionals and journals and retreats and mentoring, like programs that are beautiful and amazing and have been so helpful to so many women. So, um, and I mean, it's not just, just cater to women, it's cater to anybody, but I think what most women would like resonate with them.

So anyways, yeah. It's they have really great stuff there. Okay. Guys, make sure to check that out. We'll link to everything Maggie mentioned in the show notes, including her handle her email. Uh, Maggie, thank you so much for being here. I want to just give you the last word I closing out here. Uh, would encouragement.

What advice would you give to someone who comes from a broken family and they feel really broken. They feel really stuck in life. Maybe they're struggling in some serious ways. What advice? What, what, what advice, what encouragement would you give to someone like that? Yeah, I, I think first of all, I, I wanna say.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. Um, it's not fair to you and, and I understand like how, how painful it is and how you can feel stuck. But I also want them to know that it's not their fault. I, I think a lot of children who experience their parents' divorce, like they, they think somehow it, it was because of them like that they they're at fault.

And that is so far from the truth. I think that the devil is really good at filling our heads with those lies. And like, I, I, yeah. I mean, I, I think he wants to like, Keep us in, in that darkness. So I think something that would be really helpful is to just like share your story and to bring it, bring light to it.

Because, because when you do that, the devil has no power over you and he no longer has that power over the situation. So if anything, like, I just want to empower people to know, like they can tell their story, they can share their experience. And I think that would bring a lot of healing. And just to know that you aren't.

You have the power to change your family history. Like you don't need to repeat the cycle of divorce. Um, you can make a decision right now to do things differently, um, to make, you know, different choices and that's gonna change, you know, your family for generations and you have the power to do that. So I just encourage people to just be aware of that and to be empowered.

And, and to also know that I'm praying for, for all of you. And I hope that you're praying for me too, because we're all on this journey of healing together and that's okay. Like I think it it's okay to be healing. It's okay to. Be there at the end of that journey of healing yet, but we can do it together.

You guys, you're not alone.

I love that conversation so much wisdom, so much hope. And for all you parents listening, I actually wanna pose a question to you and I don't mean this harshly at all. In what ways? Can you take ownership for the things that happened in your family like Maggie's mom did. And I'm not saying that you caused everything that happened in the breakdown of your marriage and your family, but it's so helpful for us as the children to hear our parents take ownership.

And this honestly has been a struggling point for me and my siblings. And so how can you take ownership of your piece of the brokenness and communicate that to your kids? And that second part is important, communicating that to your kids. And we'll be coming out with more content on how to do that properly, but it's so important to eventually open the door, talking with your kids about everything that happened.

It can be extremely healing for them. And also for you. I just wanted to quickly mention, if you wanna share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that by going to restored ministry. Dot com slash story. There's a form in that page to help you tell a short version of your story, and then we'll take that, turn it into an anonymous blog article.

So if you wanna do that, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/story, or click on the link in the show notes. Again, if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, you can go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, or click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

Love Is: Patient (A Beginner's Guide)

5 minute read.

“Patient” is the first word used to describe love in one of the all-time most popular definitions of love, which comes from 1 Corinthians 13.

Whether you’re religious or not, I’m sure you’ve heard it at a wedding right there at the top: ‘“Love is patient.” This gives the impression that it’s important; patience matters.

Patience matters because people are annoying and frustrating and painfully disappointing —there’s just no way around it (as someone who is annoying, frustrating, and painfully disappointing, I can attest to this).

When we’re infatuated, we miraculously overlook this fact. It often comes as a rude awakening when the rose-colored glasses fall off and we realize what we’ve done: idealized someone who’s pretty much just like everyone else.

Your loved one can get on your nerves, and you may find that it is actually harder to be patient with them than with other people.

This makes sense as you see your beloved’s flaws up close, day in and day out. Your patience wears thin quickly because it is tested more than with someone you only see every once in a while. Additionally, because of the level of comfort you have with each other, it can be more difficult to hold back a biting comment or otherwise express your annoyance toward them.

Love is patient, we are not.

This is why, as people who hope to love, who want strong relationships and marriages, who have people in our lives we want to love, we must attempt to conform ourselves to love by striving to be patient.

How though?

ACCEPT

Patience is not contingent on the good behavior of others. People are going to screw up, in big ways and small. Things are not going to go as planned, and we will spend a lot of time waiting. Patience demands that we not react harshly to the inevitable instances when our loved ones demonstrate their weaknesses and faults, or when our life together is different from how we imagined it would be.

Furthermore, we must remember that our desires are not demands. In other words, what we want—especially for and from someone else—should not be imposed on them. Your loved one is not an extension of yourself. We have to accept who they are and where they are and embrace their complete otherness.

Basically, we can accept that the person we fell in love with—and possibly idealized a little bit—is not perfect. And out of love, we are invited to not merely tolerate their shortcomings, but to be compassionate toward them.

Again . . . how?

RESPOND

Don’t react. It is entirely normal to feel impatient, annoyed, or frustrated toward your loved one. You don’t have to be cheery about the fact that they did something which disappointed you or hurt you in some way (again). Patience comes in the space between what you’re feeling and how you react.

We have a choice whether to react or to respond. Reacting is the immediate sassy comment, eye roll, frustrated sigh, or burst of anger. It is instinctive and thoughtless.

Responding is a deep breath followed by a thought-out, gentle remark or question—or a decision to “let this slide,” because you realize it’s not a matter worth bringing up.

A reaction doesn’t take into account the long-term consequences of an outburst; it is only concerned with the release of strong emotions being felt in the current moment.

A response is able to order the emotions to the good of the relationship by holding back angry words or other wounding actions.

A reaction does not take into account the other; it is preoccupied with self. A response is an act of love toward the other and self.

A response serves the relationship, a reaction often wounds it.

Every time you find yourself getting annoyed or frustrated with your significant other, make an effort to see it not as an inconvenience but as an opportunity to love them. What that looks like will depend on the situation. Maybe you need to bring the matter up and have an earnest discussion about it. Maybe you can let it go, or maybe you need to wait to decide what the right course of action is. If you do end up talking about it, the conversation can be fruitful and loving and lead to a stronger relationship, instead of a heated and defensive argument.

This could mean leaving the room to take a few deep breaths or saying a quick prayer in silence, the point is to give yourself the space you need to respond instead of reacting. This isn’t burying all your feelings deep down and piling on insincerity toward your loved one. It is finding the best way to handle the matter and not allowing your instincts to sabotage your relationships.

It’s highly unlikely that you will react to something that irks, frustrates, or disappoints you in a loving way. However, you will always have the choice to respond to even the most annoying of instances with love.

PRO TIP: EMPATHY

While you’re taking time to respond, it helps if you step into your loved one’s shoes. Often we can assume the worst intentions because we refuse to simply walk a mile in the other person’s shoes.

Rarely do people do things out of malice. Honestly, most of the times people act out of what they believe to be right, habit, carelessness, or, at worst, woundedness.

If we can understand why our beloved does what they do (especially that which exasperates us), we are much more likely to handle it lovingly when we see that their motive is not to hurt us.

If you’re not sure, ask. In fact, as a general rule, seek understanding from your loved one about their perspective, and do your best to truly see them before you interject your opinions on the matter.

PRACTICE

In traffic, at the grocery store, waiting for your food to be microwaved…there are a thousand small instances for us to practice patience, the challenge is to recognize them and take action.

This week, try looking for those opportunities to practice patience: while you’re on hold, waiting for a text back or a package to arrive. . .

Make the decision to use these small instances of boredom/inconvenience, to put your patience muscle into training. Instant gratification is what we’re used to, but in relationships that habit won’t serve us at all. We need to detox from this unfortunate norm.

TAKE THE LONG WAY

Take this challenge one step further and avoid the shortcuts. Call instead of texting, or even better, send a letter. Handwrite a note instead of putting it in your phone. Let the person in traffic go in front of you. Drive the speed limit. Make a meal instead of ordering takeout. Stop interrupting others.

At first glance, it doesn’t feel like patience needs to be high on my priority list.

But when I think about it in the context of love and how patience really is woven into the greatest virtue of all, I realize that if I have any hope of being in lasting relationships with others and a successful marriage, patience is indeed instrumental.

Love isn’t necessarily something we are just born understanding and able to flawlessly put into practice—far from it. We learn to love slowly, one moment at at time. But we keep trying. The beauty about it is that love not only allows us to be in relationship with others but also makes us to grow as a person.

Improvement is hard-earned, and sometimes the hard part is simply pausing when you feel the familiar rush of irritation welling up inside.

And remember: Patience is a virtue! And, practice makes perfect!
And other annoying axioms.

Differing Values in Marriage and How to Handle Them

6 minute read.

A while ago I went to a storytelling event where the theme was “Romance or Not.” As you might expect, the stories told were largely about relationships and the hilarious, disastrous, wonderful adventures they can be.

One woman, in particular, described her marriage as akin to “packing for a ski trip and landing on the Caribbean.” There were ups and downs, challenges and blessings that she could not have foreseen. Part of that included differences in values between her and her husband.

When the couple met, she was a working woman with an intimidating career history. She and her soon-to-be husband had come to the agreement that she would continue her career well into their marriage. It was what they both wanted. After all, two paychecks are better than one, right?

However, things took a turn the first moment she held her baby boy in her arms less than a year after getting married.

She didn’t want to go back to work anymore, but her husband’s opinion on the matter had not changed.

And so, almost immediately after the birth of their first child, a baby elephant that she named “Elephantina” was also born into their relationship.

Over the years, Elephantina grew. She began to take up more and more space in their relationship, and the strain became increasingly palpable. Marriage counseling was “okay” but didn’t seem to be doing the trick. The woman admitted that they reached a point where, though still together, neither she nor her husband wore their wedding bands. Her husband was gone a lot, and most of their communication took place over text.

Would their marriage survive the enormous presence of Elephantina—the vast space between them resulting from their different values?

You’d be hard put to find someone who agrees with you on everything. But how different is too different?

I mean if you don’t like olives, cool, more for me!

But what about the big things: religion, parenting styles, financial decisions . . . These are things that have the potential to make or break a marriage. These are the things that make Elephantina grow big and tall.

In fact, disagreements on finances are one of the leading causes of stress in a relationship. Other top reasons for marital discord—and even divorce—are sexual differences and different core values or beliefs.

You can imagine why this last one especially complicates long-term relationships: he wants to go to one church, and you want to go to another (or no church). She thinks technology is fine for children, while you’re convinced it’s detrimental to their development. He wants to save as much as possible, she’s more focused on enjoying earnings in the present.

And so on. At first, these sorts of issues may not seem like a big deal. But the longer you’re with someone, and the more your lives become entwined, the more difficult it can be to prevent these different outlooks on life from getting between you.

Does different = disaster?

When you find yourself consistently on a different page from your spouse or significant other, you can try these strategies for confronting the challenge that different values in marriage can provide.

OVER-COMMUNICATE

If you’re not married yet, for goodness’ sake, make sure to talk about important things. And know that not all big things feel like big things.

How you both unwind after a long day for work, for example, may seem like a trivial detail, but when you live together and experience each other day in and day out, one of the best things you can do is allow the other to decompress the way they want.

Why? Because, say your brand-new husband comes home after a long day at work and you can’t wait to tell him everything that happened to you today. He, on the other hand, desperately wants to just sit for a few minutes and think about nothing. Imposing your need on him will frustrate him because he really needs to chill, and you aren’t allowing him to. It will also be disappointing for you because you know he isn’t listening or responding to what you are saying.

The end result is two people who didn’t get their needs met and are angry at each other because of it. Now your precious evening together has been hijacked by simply not knowing what each other needed in that moment. If you understand that he needs to relax for fifteen minutes right when he goes home, then, when he is ready to listen, you can get what you need: a good listener.

Other things such as how you prefer to spend money (going out to dinner, new clothes, gym memberships, travel, etc.), what your stance is on organized religion and why, what chores you like and which you really hate, traditions that are really important to you and why, how many children you would like to have and when, thoughts on private school versus public versus homeschooling . . .

The more you can cover beforehand the better. Not necessarily because you’re on the lookout for dealbreakers—although you should know what those are for you—but so the transition to married life is smoother.

If you’re already married, all is not lost. Maybe you’ve already figured some of this out—maybe the hard way. But if not, now is a great time to broach some of these topics. The more you discuss and really listen to each other’s perspectives, the less you’ll get caught off guard when your loved one doesn’t agree with you, and the better you can respond with love instead of reacting negatively to your disagreement.

DEVELOP A “WE-NESS”

This especially applies if you’re already married: you are a team. You are on the same team. You are not just you anymore, you are “we.”

You are each entrusted with the wondrous task of uplifting and encouraging each other, even when you don’t agree.

And if that’s not clear enough, I don’t know what is!!!

The point is, while you are both complete individuals on your own, you are two individuals who have become a united front. This means that while you can and will have disagreements—even on big things—it’s important to not view each other as the opposition.

You are not trying to “win over” your spouse or significant other to “your side.” It’s not your job to convince them of your argument or to prove them wrong. You can share your perspective and should explain your reasoning, but that’s where the persuading ends and the accepting begins. You can accept that there is room for differences within your “we.”

You can accept that your loved one is not an extension of yourself.

You can accept that you married someone with their own thoughts, experiences, hurts, dreams, and strengths different from your own.

You can accept that you cannot and should not try to change the person you are with.

This is what it means to love unconditionally. You are no longer just you, you are “we”—even when you disagree.

And that rhymes!

Practically speaking, to develop this “we-ness,” it is essential that you practice empathy as often as you can. Part of uniting yourself to your beloved means a continual effort to see them. This means not only doing your best to understand superficially what they believe and why, but also really delving into their experience. To put aside your own thoughts, experiences, opinions, and to put yourself instead in their shoes. Ask questions, listen, and use your imagination to get a glimpse of the inner workings of your loved one.

Imagine what it’s like to be them: What do they feel? Why do they feel it? What experiences have influenced their opinions?

MUTUAL RESPECT VS. COMPROMISE

At the end of the day, through each other’s differing opinions and beliefs, there should be a high level of regard and respect for each other. Never should we condescend our significant other because of what they believe or feel. Nor should we compromise what we believe or feel. You don’t have to sacrifice what you value to make your spouse happy. You can be open to their opinion and the fact that they could be right, but that’s a conclusion you want to arrive at, not be forced into accepting.

There can be disagreement within relationships and marriages as long as there is a healthy respect for each other.

And respect means not asking, “Are you crazy?” or, “How can you think that?” And not saying, “That’s ridiculous.” Respect means having an appropriate reverence toward your beloved as an incredible human being worthy of love and adoration.

In practice, this looks like listening, thinking before you speak, and always using words that uphold the great dignity of your spouse.

In case you’re wondering, the woman at the storytelling event did stay with her husband. They have been married for over fifteen years. He was at the event with their two children listening to her speak, and he kissed her when she sat down after she finished telling her story.

Elephantina is still alive and well—they have disagreements and areas where they don’t see eye to eye. But despite the challenge these differences present, they have chosen to stick together and accept the beauty that is a union of two different people.

And she’s never gone back to work.

What You Need to Know about Intimacy After a Breakup

3 minute read.

It’s hard when you see someone you loved moving on. (To put it mildly). It hurts because you not only loved that person, but you also knew them . . . and that doesn’t just go away.

The reality is that (depending on the length and intensity of the relationship) you knew each other better than most people. You may have known their family, you may have known their greatest fears and their biggest frustrations, their hopes and dreams, their hurts and insecurities. You may have experienced their anger, their impatience, their gentleness, their sweetness, their weakness . . . you knew them.

And they knew you. The two of you were intimate.

This intimacy is what makes the parting of ways (and his moving on) so painful.

Having been through painful breakups myself, it helped me in the aftermath to understand what intimacy really is, and why it’s so important. As you’ll see, we cannot afford to lose the softness of heart that allows others to know us.

INTIMACY: THE BASICS

Often we associate intimacy with the physical aspect of a relationship, but that is only one layer of it. Reflecting the various elements of the human person, intimacy is also emotional, intellectual, and spiritual.

The gift of being in a relationship is the intimacy that you develop with the other person. It is knowing them and being known by them. To know someone does not mean to have sex with them; it means to understand who they are as a unique, integrated being with thoughts, hopes, dreams, fears, history, family, goals, and a body and soul combined.

Friendship, dating, and marriage are a continual unveiling of the other person. It is discovering and being discovered by them over the course of a lifetime. It is this that makes relationships such a beautiful and challenging adventure. Beautiful because intimacy is wonderful and people are good, and challenging because we are all broken and have experienced hurt.

We crave this intimacy. It is embedded in our nature to be seen for who we really are (and not just who our various social media profiles say we are). The challenge with this is that, as much as we ache for this closeness, we are terrified of it in equal measure.

Intimacy, then, is a knowing, an understanding of the other as a person with a body, mind and soul and not merely an extension of yourself. It is this intimacy that allows us to love and be loved fully—and also what can make relationships terrifying.

THE RISK AND REWARD

You see, revealing yourself to others is also making yourself vulnerable to them. You are exposed and therefore susceptible to being hurt—or worst of all, being rejected.

When someone sees your innermost self—both the good and the ugly—it becomes possible for them to see you and say “This isn’t for me.”

So what is the benefit of intimacy? Why bother with it? Why should we even try to delve into relationships if the fallout can be so excruciating?

It occurred to me that maybe this hurt is meant to indicate something. Maybe what you can take away from this pain is the same thing you can learn from the pain of a sore throat or a broken arm: this isn’t how it’s supposed to be . . . something is not right.

What you are meant for is unconditional love. A love that sees you completely and accepts you without ifs or buts. The extent to which you reveal yourself to someone is the extent to which they can love you. They can choose to love in spite of your hurts and struggles and pronounced imperfection. This unveiling of self is a gift to the other that demands to be treasured and cherished. It is not something that should be thrown away or treated carelessly.

The great suffering that can result from the end of an intimate relationship is indicative of its great value. As in my case in relationships before my husband, the intimacy that should have led to an even deeper love instead led to a walking away—and that is not okay. Love doesn’t make moves like that. Unfortunately, our humanity works against us sometimes and prevents us from loving the way we should.

Intimacy, therefore, is a great risk—the fallout can wound deeply, and the payoff can heal immensely. Since the outcome is not guaranteed, we may feel tempted to avoid intimacy altogether. This is a mistake since the reward of intimacy is everything: to love and be loved.

THE CALL

Because of this, intimacy isn’t something to be avoided at all costs, rather it is something to be given great value and so treated with immense care. This is what we were made for: to love and be loved. And deep love requires deep intimacy.

My temptation (and maybe yours) after a relationship ended is to shut down. To lock the door to my heart, close the blinds and place a “no trespassing” sign outside front and center.

But intimacy bid me (and you) to do the opposite.

Our calling to be loved, and therefore to be known, insisted that I mourn, I grieve, and then, in time, slowly crack open the door to let someone in again when they come knocking.

Maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow or even this year. But one day.

Dare I Say Forever? On Overcoming Fear of Commitment

6 minute read.

If I were to ask you what you’re afraid of, you’d probably rattle off things like snakes or spiders or high interest rates (eek).

I’m definitely scared of those things. But the most anxious I’ve ever been wasn’t when I had to kill an enormous spider with my biology textbook (finally put that thing to use), or when I watched my credit card debt increase EVER so slightly . . . again (ugh).

The most anxious I’ve ever been was when I was in a committed relationship with a man I loved.

Not exactly the plot of a horror movie, I know.

Whenever things were casual and I had no expectation of a future together—that was my sweet spot. The moment there was a real possibility of a relationship going somewhere . . . for me it might as well have been another episode of American Horror Story.

So if you were to ask me what I’m scared of and I responded honestly . . . I’d have to say I have a fear of commitment.

And if I were to ask you . . . well, you might say the same thing.

Before we go into it, though, it could be helpful to define commitment. Commitment is simply being dedicated to something or someone. Whether that’s a dedication to one person, dedication to the plans you make or the values you have . . . it’s a choice you make.

While the word commitment may feel daunting and restrictive, it is actually the only way to attain what we want for our lives—especially the important things.

Commitment is the freedom to choose. You see, as long as you don’t commit to anything, you’re really choosing nothing and no one. If you resist committing to anything or anyone over the course of your life, you may try many things, but you will never experience anything deeply—that is to say, in a truly meaningful way.

Instead of harnessing the power of free will, you are completely disregarding it and therefore submitting yourself to a life of coasting. Coasting can be presented as glamorous, but committing is infinitely more rewarding. With commitment comes excellence, growth, and—most importantly—love.

More simply put, if you don’t know—if you don’t decide—where you’re going, you’ll never get there; you’ll never get anywhere.

Without commitment nothing would be mastered, nothing would change, no one would flourish, and we would all be quite lonely. Commitment—in all of its pain and glory—is where real life is. Real beauty, real goodness, real love.

SIGNS OF COMMITMENT ISSUES

• You avoid making concrete plans of any sort.

• You struggle to say “yes” or “no” definitively.

• You date the same person for several years without desiring to discuss marriage.

• You have yet to stay at the same job for longer than a year (if you’re well into your career).

• You fear missing out (whether that be a fun night out or a person who could be a “better fit”).

• You choose to date people you don’t see a future with or know are wrong for you.

• You avoid dating at all and are skeptical of your friends who are in relationships.

• You’ve been wanting to invest but can’t bring yourself to pull the trigger.

• You “ghost” (stop responding) people often.

If you find yourself nodding at several of these items, learning to be comfortable with commitment might be something for you to work on.

Often the best place to start is understanding: why is this difficult for you? Why have millennials especially become so reluctant to interact with anything which necessitates responsibility or obligation?

We gripe about this a lot—millennials and our noncommittal ways. But maybe more than pointing out the obvious, it matters that we go deeper.

WHY DO I HAVE COMMITMENT ISSUES?

The reality is that there is probably more than one reason for each of us and they all will vary. However, I think there are at least a few underlying causes which resonate with many of us to some degree and they are worth noting:

Fear of failure

There are very few things in this life meant to be permanent, marriage being one of them. However, we’ve seen too many of them (often including our parents’) end—or be carried out horrendously. We, therefore, as individuals and as a culture have developed a skepticism toward the institution itself. Anything resembling marriage (such as serious relationships) scares us because we have no faith except in its inevitable and painful demise.

Fear of getting hurt

Broken homes, previous relationships, jobs we’ve been let go from . . . we all have experienced pain and remember it vividly. Pain is—somewhat unfortunately—one of the most effective teachers. Depending on our ability to bounce back and the amount of time that has lapsed since, we may hold on to old wounds and do just about anything to avoid experiencing that sort of hurt again. And so we don’t date (or we date casually), we don’t apply for that new opening or promotion, we don’t put ourselves out there and we certainly don’t put all our eggs in one basket . . . #safetyfirst.

Fear of making the wrong choice

Indecision cripples us regularly. We can’t decide where to go out to eat on a Friday night . . . much less who we should marry. We are terrified of missing out, of making a mistake. Having seen people fail—or experienced it ourselves—and the resulting suffering, we tell ourselves that if we make the “right” choice, we can successfully avoid any sort of fallout that we’ve seen before.

This is delusional—nothing and nobody is “perfect.” When it comes to a lot of the big things in life, it isn’t a decision of right versus wrong, it’s often a decision between two goods. We are given free will and meant to use it. The answer won’t be written in the clouds or on a sticky note. We have to decide, understanding that there will be ramifications—good and bad.

Fear of intimacy or rejection

Fear of commitment often goes hand in hand with fear of being known. Fear that if someone sees us, they will find us to be bad or lacking in some way. This specific fear is incredibly painful and destructive. What often happens to those of us who have this fear is that we keep friends and loved ones at arm’s length—withdrawing when we feel vulnerable. To be loved requires being known for who we are—the more we prevent ourselves from being seen, the less we are able to be loved by others. Where this fear comes from is hard to say, but often it’s related to formative relationships gone awry.

CONQUERING FEAR OF COMMITMENT: HOW TO FIX COMMITMENT ISSUES

Firstly, we have to come to the realization that all that is good, noble, beautiful, and life-giving isn’t necessarily comfy. The more we accustom ourselves to being open to difficulty, the more we will be able to rise to the occasion when the opportunity for commitment appears. 

As much as it may be difficult to say “yes,” to be open to someone, to show up when we don’t feel like it . . . a committed life is ultimately much more rewarding than one that is mindless and susceptible to every fear or mood swing. But you can always start small. Try saying a small ‘yes’ or ‘no.’ Whether that’s simply meeting someone for lunch or committing to reading every day, you can practice for big commitments by starting with the small ones.

Something else that has helped me is taking a step back. It’s easy to spread ourselves thin today and do a lot mediocrely instead of just a few things well. I also am learning to say “no” to some things in order to be able to respond “yes” enthusiastically to others. We can’t do it all, give yourself a break and consider how you really want to spend your time.

Finally, as stated earlier, understanding the “why” is crucial. If commitment is something that very much scares you, it may be worth exploring the issue with a therapist. It can be daunting (and pricey), but truly a worthy investment of your time and money. The self-awareness and healing which often result from therapy will allow you to live a more authentic, free, and full life.

Fear of commitment has become so prevalent that often I worry people will no longer view it as a problem. The new “norm” could become one “maybe” after another, relationships going nowhere, and the demise of anything which requires a steadfast spirit.

I hope this isn’t the case. I know in my own life I will continue to wrestle with this fear as long as I need to. Not only because I know the good that lies on the other side, but also because I refuse to live a life run by fear.

What kind of life is that, anyway?

Here’s to saying and meaning the f-word many of us have run away from for so long: forever.

#063: The Antidote to Trauma | Margaret Vasquez

When your parents’ marriage and family break apart, it’s traumatic for you as their son or daughter. 

That trauma is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that last for a long time. As a result, you need to heal. But how? 

Our guest today, a trauma therapist, shares the antidote or opposite of trauma. We discuss:

• The 4 principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma

• One thing you can today, right away, to heal and grow

• Why feeling worthless is a major problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again

If you want peace, freedom, and great relationships, this episode is for you. 

Buy Margaret’s book: FEARLESS: Abundant Life through Infinite Love (affiliate link)

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Margaret Vasquez

  • margaret@sacredhearthealingministries.com

  • Sacred Heart Healing Ministries

  • Episode 37: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage and family falls apart, it's traumatic for you as their son or daughter. That trauma though is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that lasts for a long time. And as a result, you need to heal. But how my guest today, a trauma therapist shares the antidote to trauma, the opposite of trauma, as she says, We discussed the four principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma.

She also shares one thing that you can do today right now to heal and grow. We talk about why feeling worthless is a major sign and problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again. Now, if you want peace, if you want freedom, if you want great relationships, this episode is for you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 63. You've probably heard that my new book is available on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.

And I experienced these issues, these problems firsthand when my parents broke apart and it really shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating in the holidays? And other life events. How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to.

Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems to learn some healing tactics, to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. Now, if you wanna buy the book or if you want to get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash books, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. After over 15 years of treating trauma clients of all ages presenting to a wide variety of groups in person and through guests appearances on E WTN radio shows and podcasts.

Margaret began serving as a consultant for Franciscan university of Steubenville Institute. For diaconal renewal and presenting workshops and retreats to religious priests, deacons, and lay people. She now makes those same retreats and workshops available to you in her new book, fearless and through online retreats and workshops.

And as you might remember, I interviewed Margaret in episode 37 trauma, what it is and how it damages you. And we heard a lot of good feedback about that episode. This episode is equally as good, and I'm thrilled to. With Margaret again. And before we dive into the conversation, I wanna say that we do talk about God somewhat in this episode.

And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad that you're here. This show is for everyone, not just religious people. And my challenge for you is this, listen with an open mind, even if you take the God parts out, I'm super confident that you're still gonna benefit from this conversation. And so here it.

Margaret. It's so good to have you back on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks Joey. It's great to be. I was especially excited to talk with you again, because you're an expert on trauma and what the people that we're serving are dealing with so often is trauma from their broken families. And so I'm excited to speak with you, and I'm excited to tell everyone about this book that you've written because as I understand it, and you correct me if I'm wrong here, the framework that you offer really is an antidote to trauma.

So two questions for you. 1:00 AM I overstating that? And two, is there anything else you would say about the problem that this book solve? I see it as definitely not even just the antidote of trauma, but trauma prevention as well. Like when people are looking to like build their own families. Right. And also like one of the, when I'm, when I'm working with people in, in treatment in my office and I lay out the concept, be behind the book, we use it throughout the week for them to understand the why behind, like, why the things they've gone through.

Are particularly painful, hurtful difficult, because a lot of times people tend to minimize those things and think, well, if I just wasn't a whim or if I just had a thicker skin, or if I just wasn't so sensitive or, or this or that, and or people have been through worse, I hear that a lot. And I think when people can understand why things were painful and hurtful and that it was actually because the situation was not what we're made for, then they're able.

One not minimize it. And then so really be able to experience compassion and be compassionate towards themselves about it. And then also it puts 'em on a better trajectory going forward to be able to understand why those ways are not the ways to relate to others in the future. Right. Cuz they really understand the, the whole picture.

So. beautiful. I love it. It makes me think of, I've heard it said that who's more of the hero, a firefighter who puts out a fire, or maybe a firefighter who puts in a fire prevention system. And in a lot of ways, it's like, well, prevention is, is beautiful. And so either way, if someone's been through trauma, they can benefit from the book.

If they maybe haven't and they. Avoid that, or prevent that from happening, then they can benefit from the book. So really, really beautiful. Mm-hmm what would you say is the outcome or the transformation that you want for each person who, who reads the books and start more than reading it? Who puts it into action?

Who starts living this out? What's that outcome that you want for them simply stated it would be able to, to live, um, in the fullness of, uh, healthy. Connection communion with others and healthy integration with themself, and then hopefully healthy union with God, if for those who are on that track, because it's really like the essence of connection, whether it's to God, ourselves or others, it, it all comes down to the same principles.

So. Beautiful. And let's talk about that a little bit, like abundant life and other words that I would use for that too. And I know you would agree would be thriving or flourishing. Sure. Yeah. What do we mean when we say that? Cause I think for a lot of people, especially who have a really broken background, they may have never tasted that they may have no real concept of flourishing or thriving or some sort of abundant life.

Like, I dunno what that means. What would you say to someone who doesn't really can't relate to. Words. Yeah. Well, I just think, you know, a little bit about my history, right. And I, I grew up in a crazy amount of dysfunction and trauma. And so I, I came by the field honestly. Right. And so, yeah, I never understood that life could really be about something more than trying to like quiet the, the discord and confusion and drama, you know?

So I really like the definition of. Peace. That's more of like Shalom, right? Like, so the definition for that is like wholeness there's sense of completeness and fullness and that kind of thing, as opposed to the absence of discord. So to me, abundant life is such a sense of fullness and, and completeness that then it overflows to the others in your lives as well.

Mm. So good. And I, I would say too, that the byproduct of that is joy, which I think we all want, we want happiness. Oh yeah. Would you agree with. Oh, yeah, absolutely joy. Freedom. Yeah. Yeah. I think both of those words come to mind. beautiful. And I love what you said too. And I think so, so many of us have been there and even the people listening right now might be there right now.

It's just in the survival mode where perhaps even in a victim mode where they've, you know, gone through a lot and they just feel powerless and hopeless. And so I think this is very timely, so many people need, and I'm just really excited to, uh, to dive into this book. So in the book, you'd say that true, authentic.

Healthy connection is the antithesis of trauma. It's the antidote, like we said, why is that? Let's break into that a little bit more. Why is that the antidote? Yeah. Well, I see it like, as, I guess let's say I, I use the word antithesis because I see it as like the opposite of trauma, right? If like trauma is what we are not made for.

And so therefore it does damage to us on all different levels, physically, emotionally, spiritually, cognitively, relationally, you know, and the list goes on. Then, if that's true of trauma, then connection is that for which we're made. And it's really that by which we grow in personal integration, like meaning like our personal sense of self, our really our ability to, to really feel comfortable in our own skin, which is a really big deal.

And to be able to relate to others with a sense of starting with the needle on fall instead of the needle on empty mm-hmm . So we're really able. To relate from a sense of freedom where it's really, I can engage with you from a place of being filled up first. And so then it overflows to you rather than going.

Each interaction, really hoping that this desperate need in me somehow gets filled up by this person. And that's just such a, a setup for crazy making, you know? So I see connection is really, uh, what we're made for, because it's what causes that, that personal integration and that true piece and joy and freedom between people and relationships and that sense of, of growing union with God.

So good. And would you say, let's say someone's listening right now and like, well, I've kind of messed up in my relationships. I've built maybe this unhealthy reliance on another person. Like I feel half empty, you know, all the time, will this book kind of help them course? Correct too. Like, I, I know we're talking about prevention and maybe people in their mind, they might think if I don't use it beforehand.

And then I get in this situation where I'm really broken things. Aren't good. Can this help me course? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can I share, I'll share a story. So I was doing some follow up work for some people who had gone through trauma therapy and this one particular situation. It was a, a 16 year old boy and his mother.

And there was just a lot of conflict in their relationship because a lots of the stuff that he had been through. So just wrote out the framework really simply it's back. And I had a really simple model of it, and I really just on a page, drew a circle and divided into four quadrants and just wrote in those quadrant.

Boundaries valued, known and openness. I mean, it was just super rudimentary way of describing it to them, but I showed it to both of them and, and said, this is what we all need in relating. And when those things are there, like things are great. And when those things aren't there, everything goes sideways really fast, you know?

And so it was so cool. You know, I didn't like anticipate this cuz it was one of the first settings like that, where I was describing this to people after I'd started seeing. Kind of like a way of understanding human and spiritual integration mm-hmm . But by describing it to this mom and this son, and write, just writing it on this piece of paper and sitting it on the table in front of them.

Now, all of a sudden they were sitting like shoulder to shoulder and looking at this piece of paper and it was like, okay, this is what. We both need. And, and so this is what, where we feel like how you related to, you know, your father and I, what the mom would say, wasn't there, you know, it felt like you've crossed our boundaries or, you know, whatever by violating curfew or what, and for him, it was like, okay, I can understand that.

But like, , I didn't feel like you guys really understood how important going to that event was to me, you know? So I really didn't feel known cuz didn't feel like you, you know, listened to and, and so it was so cool, you know, I'm just like I'm watching this. Interaction take place and thinking how beautiful it was that it went from.

Well, you're a bad kid. Well, you're a mean mom into, before they had that framework of understanding, basically like rules of engagement. Right. And once they had that, then suddenly there was a common. A common goal and a common understanding of we want connection with each other. And I was just like, that was so cool.

And then the, the boy, the teen, he was going to his high school. And, uh, so over the next couple of weeks he would come in and I would be able to ask him about his week in terms of like his relationships with his parents, with his girlfriend or with his friends at school mm-hmm in terms of those connection factors.

And by the first week he came in after, you know, the. Just understanding, you know, explanation. He came in, he was able to explain what was working and what wasn't basically in his life, in terms of those four things. By the second week, he was able to do it without any prompting from me. It was like he had already like, Put his life up against the captain crunch, decoder ring.

Right. And like, knew how to talk about it. By the third week he came in saying that he was able to adjust on the fly in relationships with his girlfriend and his friends and his parents, like in his, just in his mind, like having those simple factors and he was relating to somebody and he felt like, okay, like, there's a block here.

There's a wall here. How this person's responding to me. Something doesn't feel smooth in his head. He just went by those. things and was able to like, yeah. Self correct, like in, in real time. And I was like, wow, that. That was like, that felt like a big victory. Amazing. Yeah. Right. 16 year old that's male, you know, that was like, it felt like a big deal.

Yeah. If it would feel a big deal to be able to teach that to a clinician and have him kind of master it in three weeks, but a 16 year old, it was great. Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. And you know, Us men, especially when we're teenagers aren't necessarily known for thriving. Well, you know, in the principles of you teach , what was that?

I wasn't gonna say it, but if you want to, yeah. I could say it . Yeah. Some are more advanced than others, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. I was like relating things that I'm learning for the first time, which I'm learning here is something I know. And it makes me think of like a preflight checklist almost. It's exactly a pre a preflight checklist.

I don't know the whole history, but basically after some accidents happened, because pilots who were taking planes off forgot to do really important things. Wow. They put in place, these checklists and these checklists have saved lives basically. Oh wow. Because they force. The pilots to perform this routine, right.

To make sure everything with the plane is healthy. Everything with the plane is functioning and literally it's saved lives. And so it almost makes me think this is kinda like a preflight preflight checklist for relationships. Yeah. And midflight , you can midflight right. There you go. And like we're losing altitude, right?

Like, right. So good love it. So let's get into the principles. So as you mentioned, there are four principles and, uh, I, yeah, I'm just so excited for people to learn them. So if you would teach us, break down these principles, how they work, we can start with value or however you wanna take it. But I was thinking we would start with value.

Cause I think that is the first actually, if, if it's okay with you, I'll start with boundaries because it just kind of makes the most sense to me. So yeah, go ahead. Um, which, okay, so, so I basically look at it like. Boundaries are the first things that we kind of kind of hit up against each other, uh, or hit up against when we're relating to each other.

Right. Is, um, which I would say like a basic sense of safety and respect and because we're body, mind and spirit, we, we get boundaries in all three of those areas. And even more than, than get boundaries, we as a kind of, as a. But like, we have them as a responsibility too. Right. We have a responsibility to set boundaries because those things are, are good self care.

And they enabled me to be able to bring my, a game to a situation. So I think a lot of times we don't get. Taught about boundaries or we get sent, you know, most often people tell me that they got sent a negative message about boundaries, like the boundaries weren't allowed. And I know for myself, got the message, like, who do you think you are if you're setting a, you know, if you're setting a boundary or something.

Hmm. But boundaries are really that first thing that we encounter when we're encountering the other. And, but I think when, when we have a basic sense of safety and respect from that person, then we naturally open. A little bit, you know, okay. I, I feel general sense of safety with this person, but we kind of see what they're about.

Right. And so then that door opens a little bit and I think the next, um, kind of chamber within that, that we reach is value. And I'd say value is if this person's respectful of my boundaries and they continue to relate to me in a way that shows me that they regard me with value based on my dignity as a human person.

or, you know, dignity as a child of God, then, then, okay. Then I feel a little bit safer and I'll even open that door a little bit. You know, it's a very different story when we are relating to somebody and we have a sense that they respect our boundaries. And so we open a little and then all of a sudden we start getting the message.

It's all about what I can get from you. You know what I mean? Right. Or it's based on like your looks or your money or your status or performance or your productivity, you know, there's. there's something in there that I'm trying to get outta you rather than just like, regarding you with dignity because you, you are.

And so then when that door opens a little, then I think what happens next is then we really like, let me let this person like really see and hear a little bit about who I really am. Right. And if they take the time to do that, then there's that sense of feeling known, right? If, if I'd say if. if we experience being seen and heard as an individual, who's very good.

Just very good. Like in our, in our essence, right? Like just again, because we are, it's not something we have to earn. And when that happens, then there's, there's this natural connection, you know, originally when I was seeing it as. Boundaries valued, known, and openness. I had an experience that taught me like, oh, you can't make an end run for openness.

Like, okay, all those things are nice, but I want this person to open. So I'm just gonna try to get my battering Ram out and bash that, that door down. Well, you can't, but when you relate to people, In a way that respects their boundaries and values them inherently. And you take the time to see and hear them as an individual.

Who's very good. That openness naturally happens because it's what we're made for. We're made for connection. I would, I throw chosen in there too, like really at the core, because sometimes the chosen being chosen is more of a it's more time limited, you know, it's not a forever kind of thing. Like really simple example would.

Being in a restaurant and wait staff is coming over and they're throwing the coasters on the table and they're like, hi, how's everybody doing today? You know? And like, good, good, good. If you don't look up, you know, or anything, and everything goes along, you know, just fine. But if you look up and you're like, oh, I'm doing well.

How are you doing? A lot of times they're like, oh, they're kind of taken back. And they're like, oh, I'm doing well. Thanks for asking, you know, it's almost like they kind of stammer like, oh my gosh, you're talking to me, like, I'm a human and not just what's between you and your stake, you know, or something like that, you know?

Yeah. Fair. So that's just being chosen in that moment. You know, it's not, you're gonna send a Christmas card necessarily to this person who waited on you and some relationships are a lot more, they last longer family relationships or friend relationships or things like that. And, and certainly when it.

Talking about it from a spiritual standpoint, it's at the core of our relationship with the Lord. He chose us first. And I think that same way that boundaries are the things we, we meet first with others and then being valued and then being known and then being chosen. I think it's really like when we talk about it from a spiritual perspective, God actually starts on the inside.

Right? Like he chose you out of all the possibilities of people he could possibly. Choose to create and redeem and sanctify and call intimacy with himself. He chose to create you. And then, you know, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, right? And then his value for us and pouring himself out for us and, and giving himself to us daily.

And then looking at his boundaries, I'd say is protection and provision would be kind of how I look at boundaries that seeing, looking at that from the Lord as, as morality, Really. And so it's like, because I choose, I chose to create you and I know you and I've poured myself out for you. Then I sat before you life and death, please, please, please use life.

It's gonna be so much easier if you do, you know, and in that way, being able to see boundaries from the Lord as. that's what he has for us instead of what he wants from us. Hmm. Because it makes a really big difference in how we receive it. You know, I, for myself, I went through a pretty significant period of time in my life where morality felt much more like what God wanted from me mm-hmm instead of it.

So ended up kind of much more like the older brother and the prodigal son where it's like, you. why is this guy get a fatted calf? And like, I'm over here busting my hump. And I don't even have, you know, a party with my friend, you know, kind of thing, you know, you get bitter and that kind of thing. Totally.

Instead of being able to receive the boundaries as, as gift, you know, primarily as God's protection and, and that kind of thing. So, so yeah, so I think it, it starts at the core. It starts on the inside, cuz God's on the inside, right? Not on the. wow. There's so much there. I know when my parents were going through their divorce and you know, I, I know they probably didn't intend this.

So often I felt like the only time I was involved in maybe their lives on a deep levels when they needed something from me, mm-hmm . And I think so often we see that with the people that we work with is that we almost, we feel used in a way by our parents. And I think just what you said at the end there about God, we just tend to project that image onto God thinking he's the same as our parents.

And so, you know, I, I think that's why a lot of people have an aversion to a relationship with God. It's like. I don't wanna be treated like that. I don't wanna be used. I don't think that he's worth my time, because if he's like my parents then, well, that's not something I'm wanna be a part of. So yeah.

There's a lot there. Anything you would say to that? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I feel like you logged, lobbed it right over the plate on that. So. When I went through trauma therapy, I came back from, from going through, you know, it was like intensive treatment and I came back home and I, I went to pray and I went to the, up to the chapel and I was sitting there and.

God took me like through that in my head showed me like how my father was, but like how he is and how my mom is. So to each one of those takeaway messages about how they parented me to the difference in how he is. And so just this past week with a person I was working with, we ended up with a whole sheet at the end of.

The week of something that, you know, the truth about God, and it was like, dad did this, but God does this, you know, mom did this, but God does that, you know, or that kind of thing. So parents are meant to image God for us. But unfortunately, sometimes that image isn't, it's not very favorable and so very sorted go back.

Yeah. And like rework. no. So true. Yeah, no, I've had to do, you know, a lot of work myself with kind of storing that it's something, right. To be honest, I'm wrestling with a bit right now. Um, just kind of going back to the basics in a way of seeing like, okay, you know, God, do you really want me, or are you just trying to get something out of me?

It's a very honest place to be, I think, especially to take that to prayer. Um, and I realize a lot of people listening might be opposed to that, but I would challenge you if you're listening right now. And you're just very opposed to a relationship with God. Why is that, you know, give us some thought. I think it's, it's worth thinking about it's worth kind of digging into a bit.

And I know it's been very fruitful when I've done that and just ask those honest questions and just wait, listen, see what happens. You know, you probably won't hear an audible voice, but there might be something that happens in your life, whether it's someone. Saying something to you. Some, I don't know a song you hear, it can be something as simple as that, a realization you have, those are sorts of things.

God uses to communicate to me. It's never audible, but it's often through one of those means of a realization or a relationship or something that just kind of comes up in my life. Yeah. It's, uh, it cuts to the heart of so much. I think of our issues with God when we, yeah. You hit the now in the head talking about kind of this problem that we have with seeing God like our parents.

Yeah. Or authority, authority, other people in authority can do that as well. You know, coaches or teachers, they can do the same. Kind of thing, you know, can image God for us in a way that's not necessarily the biggest compliment to God , you know? Yeah. And so then we kind of take that on and go, uh, no, not doing that, you know, at the bottom line, like God disagrees with that every bit, as much as we do , you know, if not more.

Right. And I think that's been something that's given me. Encouragement to like dig into those areas when I just didn't wanna have anything to do with him. Yeah. No, beautiful. That's hard work. Um, it's not something he, it's not something that happens overnight, but that's beautiful. I wanna go back to just this whole framer.

I think it's genius because so often when we talk about these things, it's really kind of like the whole picture of a relationship. It's all the points that you need. To live out a beautiful relationship relationship, a meaningful relationship, a fulfilling relationship. So often I think we maybe just focus on one of these pieces, whether it's boundaries or value or openness, or as we can say, vulnerability, I know it's a big thing that a lot of people talk about.

And so I love that you've kind of put them all together because I, I think they fit together so well. And so going back to. Value. I think this is a big struggling point for a lot of people. We feel worthless. Like, and, and I think that low opinion of ourselves often leads us to even hate ourselves. Mm-hmm um, I know in the past I've had to wrestle with that myself.

And so people might hear this and be like, oh, value, whatever. But I, I think it becomes very practical when you. Kind of dig into it as you explained really well of like, okay, I feel worthless. I feel like I have no value. I feel like I'm not worth loving. I feel like my value only comes from my work or from succeeding in school or sports or mm-hmm , you know, whatever situation like that.

So I think a lot of people listening right now are there right now, they feel worthless. And because of that, All of this other stuff just breaks down. Yeah. And so that's kind why I intuitively I don't know if it was from a past conversation or not, or from the book I intuitively went to value cuz I was thinking, man, that's so foundational, but I, I think it's wise that you started with boundaries.

So yeah, I, growing up, I kind of got that instill in me that your value comes from more of a utilitarian point of view of. The value provided in your job, or like I said, school or sports, things like that, or even money, you know, how big is your bank account? Mm-hmm so when we're talking about value though, you, you hit on it before, but I wanna go a little bit deeper into this.

What do we mean by that? How can we say that people have inherent value? Is that really something that, um, People might disagree with that a little bit. I, I don't, but I, I think, uh, I think it's important to kind of explain a little bit more, so yeah. If you would, yeah. About that, the, yeah, I'd say the meaning of it is that we have an inherent dignity.

That's not contingent on any external factor at all. You know, and even if our, I think for females, a lot of times it's looks, you know, it's based on looks for guys. I think it's more on performance, you know? As in real general sweeping statement. Right. And, but when you take all of that away, there's still like a beauty to the human person, just because we're made in the image and likeness of God.

And so it doesn't matter if, when the wrinkles start to come and, and when you get slower, Running the marathon or, you know, or whatever it is, mm-hmm , then it doesn't matter. There's still a beauty there to, to the, the soul that's like that can't be seen and can't, doesn't have a price tag, you know? And so, and it's actually like, to me, like one of the things that proves the truth of it is actually because when people operate out of that belief and that truth, everything goes well.

And when they operate as though it's not true. Everything breaks down. Right. So, wow. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So to me, like it, it is its own proof. You know, this is, it is its own proof of truth. Like, because when people hinge their, their value on some arbitrary metric that's outside of themselves, then they usually either full of anxiety because now I have I'm self-reliant for my own value or.

Like overextending themselves and then super impatient with people who get in their way, because they have so much to accomplish because they're fighting for their own sense of right to be on the planet. And yet when people start from that place of that, they have inherent value. There's just, there's a freedom and a joy, you know, it goes back to those freedom and joy.

That really flows outwards and it, it's not self consumed, you know? And it's yeah. So it, it proves the truth of it to me, you know, within itself. Yeah. And I've seen that in action. Um, I'm thinking of someone right now who just puts so much received so much of their worth or value from their job. Mm-hmm and I remember this particular person was outta work for a long time and it just destroyed.

It just destroyed them. And once they got back into work, it was like they had life again, which mm-hmm I guess it was a good thing. I don't know how to think about that, cuz it wasn't good before that, but I wish there was this alternative, like why, you know, couldn't they see themselves as a valuable human, even if.

They didn't couldn't work. Didn't work, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And I think that better, we get that worked out before we retire. Right. Or we're gonna be pretty miserable, retired people. Gosh. Amen. Yeah. And one of the things, when you were speaking that came to mind is I think so many people doubt their value because of.

The mistakes that they've made. It's like, well, I've messed up so much in my life. I've mistreated people. I've heard people I've, you know, I have this addiction in my past or, you know, whatever had broken down in their past. I think so much. They, they look at that and they see. Well, I'm not really that valuable.

In fact, I pretty much just deserve to be punished and that's about it. But we're saying here, your value doesn't change based on even your own mistakes. Is that right? Or it might get into murky water there. Oh yeah, no, no, no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Our values, of course, I come in from a Christian perspective.

So I'd say, you know, I look at it like when somebody's wearing a, a crucifix or a cross or whatever, like that's their price tag. Like, that's what they're worth, you know what I mean? And that doesn't change. Their price has been set, set and paid and it's not on them to, to pay it. And the price doesn't, it's not, somebody's going around and res stickering the price on them.

No beautiful. And that makes sense. And the book obviously goes into this a lot more, so we'll keep moving. One of the things I wanted to say, one of the most beautiful things about being a dad now is just that I can, you know, attempt to offer my daughter, uh, what I really wish I would've had. And one of the things that.

You know, I've seen a lot just in my life, especially in ministry, working with people, opening up to me is just that. So often there's so many lives we believe, and I think this would be one of them like we're talking about is like, I'm not valuable. I'm not worth anything. I'm not worth loving. Mm-hmm so one of the things I've tried to do, and I encourage parents listening right now, especially new parents to do this is like, I just.

I have this whole litany. I kind of like say to my daughter, I'm like, okay. And I won't go through all of it right now, but one of the things I tell her, I'm like, Lucy, like, you're so worth loving. Like you're so worth loving. Like you're so lovable and you're so worth loving. And my hope it gets me kind of emotional.

But my, my hope is that that just like seeps into her so deep, like down to her bones, like down to her core that. When she, you know, goes through life, like when she's no longer with us, when she's struggling as a teenager, like she will believe that at her core. And maybe there'll be struggles there. I don't doubt that, but I, but I hope that she has like such that foundation that she just goes through life with such peace, with such confidence, with such freedom and joy and all the things that I think so much of us, so many of us want.

So anyway, I wanted to mention that. Cause I think as, as parents, those of us listening, our parents, we can. Um, speak into those places. Almost preemptively kind of like this whole framework is meant to prevent trauma. We can speak into those places into the lives of our children. Yeah. So real quick story.

So I'm not, I don't know if I shared about it in the book, but a friend of mine when her son was 12 he's 18 now, but when he was 12, I was at one of his football games. He was in middle school. And I'll spare you the story to just kind of condense this, but he was playing football and I was at his game. He did something that was like really outstanding, not a football play.

It was a very human interaction with another person. It was like exceedingly, compassionate and good sportsmanship and just like. yeah, really kind of stand out. And so I text his mom who was sitting in the stands and I'm like, do you see him? And she's like, oh my gosh, I love that boy. You know? And so later it, I was at their house because I needed her to show me something on my computer, cuz she was more tech savvy than me.

And, um, he was heading into his room and she went, she was sitting on the arm of the couch, you know, I'm sitting on the couch and she's like leaning down over it showing me, oh, you need to do this and this. And, um, when he goes walking by, she went, oh, you know, just like to herself, like, oh yeah. I wanted to say something to him after, you know, he'd come home and got in a shower and eaten and all that.

So she, she calls him, you know, she's like Zach and he goes, yeah, mom. And she says, I like who you are. Hmm. I'm like, by the time she gets back to the couch, I'm like ugly crying. You know what I mean? and she's like, oh my gosh, are you okay? And I'm like, that's so beautiful. Like how many, how many people never hear?

I like who you are. Yeah. You know, and, and it's, and it's not to villainize saying good job to somebody. Sure. But that's so much the natural. And so then we can take away, like I have good news because I did a good job and like, that's. That's not it. And it's, it's not to say that's necessarily like inherently, mentally unhealthy or something.

Sure. But, but I think there really is something to focusing on applauding somebody for who they are over and above what they did. You know, the courage that it took to do this or that, or the dedication that it took to do this or that, or the integrity, or, you know, whatever, as opposed to the, the job, you know, make it about their being instead of their doing.

Right. So good. I love that. Yeah. And I think even being particular with your language is important there. And instead of just saying good job, like you said, saying, I like, you know how you are. I, I love how you did that. Or even when it comes to kids, I don't mean to make this such a parenting thing for anyone who's like younger, and who's not a parent, not even thinking about a parent, you can kind of put yourself on the opposite end of this.

And, and I can do that with myself too. And thinking like mm-hmm yeah. I would've loved to hear that. That, that would been awesome. Right. It. Thinking back to how, yeah, so many of us just crave that and, and we want that, but you know, we can say someone did a good job and then, but at the same time distinguish, and again, I've my wife and I are kind of working on this right now, but we wanna do that with our daughter.

We wanna applaud her for, um, her efforts. saying, you know, good job like you did really well. You're trying so hard. Like you've grown so much in this area. Mm-hmm but Mo more importantly, just like applaud her for just the person that she is. Right. And not, you know, even using different languages. Like she's really well behaved.

That's about her actions, but she's so good. That's about her right. Inherent value. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it might seem kind of insignificant, but I think it does, especially after years and years of compounding, if we can speak that into the people in our lives. I think you can have a really, really big impact.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I see it on a yeah. Daily basis when I'm working with people, just the, you can tell. Their, their value of themself is formed based off of whether they, you know, whether it was for getting good grades in school or for being star athlete or being super helpful around the house or being the peacemaker or whatever, you know?

Sure. As opposed to that, there was this unshakeable value that they had, that that was unchanging. And that's, I think that that sense of security is the stuff that like yeah. That peace is made of. Yeah. So good. I love that. That sense of security, cuz so often we talk about insecurities, but the opposite would be yeah, just that deep sense of security.

Mm-hmm I know who I am. I know I'm good. I know I'm worth loving. I know that. Yeah. I have a lot to offer to, to people in my life. Not just for what I can do, but just who I am and so good love this. Can someone who's not religious benefit from this framework. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was where I saw it first was, you know, I was, had been practicing trauma therapy for a very long number of years and started noticing this pattern and, but noticed it, and, you know, in terms of human dynamics, wait, these connection is what people bring up to me.

If they come for a week of intensive. Trauma therapy and bring up anything beautiful. Like it always has to do with connection, you know, to God's self for others. And so realized that first and then, oh yeah. It's about boundaries, valued, known, and openness. Like those were always the things. And so it was, I noticed it in, uh, human to human, like relationship first.

It was only like going back, working that backwards. Like wait, when we relate to ourselves that. Then that fosters like integrity and that sense of like human integration. Right. And then like, wait, this is how God relates to us too. So it was only going backwards that, that I found that that was like really, to me, like the higher authority.

that besides just Margaret saying these things are important, but like, wait, this is the way the Lord relates to us. So there must be something solid about this. . Yeah, like I said, you know, I noticed it in human relationships and it, so it, yeah, it gets us just on the, and you know, human relationships with others.

But again, you know, with ourselves as well, so good. Yeah. And no, I, I think that what you said, it's just, it's a human thing. So even if you know, you're not in a place right now where you feel like God could. Kind of in the equation, then it's just a human thing. It'll improve your relationships and it'll improve.

Mm-hmm , you know, the way you feel about yourself, which is so good. You mentioned the story before of the mom and the son, you know, who kind of learned this framework and he started using it. Oh yeah. Did you have any other stories about people who just really benefited from learning these principles and then starting to live them in their own.

Yeah. Yeah. A couple of people come to mind in particular people I've worked with in treatment and a couple of 'em have I continue to have contact with. and then being able to say how their in their living situations, the people they're relating to that are able to just let go of being so annoyed by things that used to annoy them like on a daily basis, uh, you know, feeling disregarded or not listened to, or overlooked or, you know, whatever it was in different community situations.

And so, because of recognizing what was going on and digging back into. Sense of, you know, if I'm, if I don't feel known out here by this other person and that's really grading on me then, oh, I do. I feel known by myself. Yeah. Okay. I, I am regarding myself as someone who's very good. And yet I still feel the need to, to experience that.

Okay. So I can drop anchor so to speak, like in God, like to get that filled up, if I'm feeling like it's some, you know, like an area that's really lacking and as this person's done that. This, you know, kind of more tendency to complain about that and really kind of let that get him down then. Like it's just not there anymore.

And so he just operates with like this degree of peace and. Man. We just keep coming back to that word. Don't we? But yeah. Yeah. Like it's like, it's almost like not even on the radar, you know, so much so. Hmm. So that's so that's cool. Yeah. Also seen it be, uh, become like the rules of engagement, you know, so to speak in relationships like, okay.

Somebody I worked with quite recently, this was a, a woman and she was able to re. Her own behavior is why she had responded the way she did in the situation to her husband. And then also like to take the same thing and apply it to him and go, oh, these are the things he needs as well. Wow. And then, um, so it didn't just lead to, this is how we need to relate, but it actually led her from a place of feeling hurt about something to actually a place of compassion for him.

And so I was. Wow. There's a lot. Once people kind of, once you see it, you can't not see it, you know, as the necessary ingredients. And when you realize, you know, I think there's that first level of, okay, this is what I need and okay. I can get how this applies to me and how this affects me. But when you go, uh, this is what this person needs to.

And then, then you really got it, you know? And then you're, it's not just about yourself and you really understand more of. Why things happen and you're able to not personalize things when hurts happen, you know, not internalize them as personal. so good. Love it. Yeah. And I'm sure you have a million other stories, which we don't have time for, but do I'm the book has more of those stories.

Yeah. There's I, I'm pretty sure there's good bit of stories in there. Kind of how, how the framework came to, to my mind in particular first and yeah. There's different things in there. And a few words, I'm just curious, how have you benefited from it? Cuz this is obviously something you discovered put language to, but yeah.

I'm curious how this has kind of played out in your own. Gosh. So I'm, I'm the kid from the time I was little, I was always why, why, why, why I was that kid, right? so it's helped me understand why to like so many things, like so many things. Well, there's this line in Batman begins. Okay. Which is a highly philosophical movie.

It's a fantastic, that's my favorite movie. That's my favorite. Oh really? Yeah. I Julia, like you even more natural you too. so, you know, he says like, we always fear what we don't understand. And I just think that's you remember the, the who's a, the drug, the mafia guy basically like, right that under Lord guy and yeah, I.

Relationships can just be so confounding, you know, because people can be so complex and we're all also different from each other, as much as we really have more in common. But when there can just be this kind of like swirl of like, why is a person doing this? Or why is this happen? Or why is this bothering me so much?

Or lots and lots and lots of whys. And so to me, it always goes back to, to two multiple choice questions. It's like, okay, is it a breakdown in connection to God's self or others? okay. And then the next question would be, is it about boundaries, value being known or openness? Boom. So like two questions and I'm able to get to the crux of what's going on in a situation and kind of like write the ship, you know, internally when I feel like I'm losing my piece or something.

And so, yeah, so it's, it's been very, it's been a blessing to me, so good. It almost makes me think of like an analogy of. You know, relating to another person is John Paul. The second would talk about like throwing a bridge. It's like we're walking across a bridge to an island that is another person. And it almost makes me think of this framework is the bridge.

Yeah. That, that bridge is the connection. And if you want the connection, you need these four. Pieces in place mm-hmm right, right. Yeah. What we're, it's what we're made for. Right. So if I go up, you know, if we're in the same place and we're having a conversation and, and I like cover your mouth and nose and then expect you to be able to, to be able to survive and be able to carry on the conversation, like that's.

That's silly. It's not gonna work. Yeah. You know, but we do the same thing on this invisible level in terms of, you know, de depriving each other of what, just what we need in order to relate healthily. Yeah. No, so good. I think that we focus so much on the physical and what's before our eyes and our world and our very materialistic world.

So it's. A good reminder, that there's so much more happening below the surface that can't be seen. So good. Uh, aside from buying the book, what's one thing that you would say someone listening right now who wants to live these principles out, what what's maybe one thing that they can do today to begin living out these principles.

I always think it starts with self-compassion when I'm working with somebody and, and they get to that point where they're able to, to really have compassion for themself in whatever painful things they've gone through. It's a game changer. You can't do that based on just, you know, you're not brimming over with warm, fuzzy feelings towards yourself.

Then, you know, if you have a relationship with the Lord, then that's. You can kind of dig into that, right? His compassion for yourself, you know, for you and for your suffering and stuff. And that's, you know, somebody had asked me once, like, self-compassion, isn't that the same as like narcissism? I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Self-compassion is imitation of Christ. Right? Because he has compassion for us, you know, and I really think being able to. To have that and kind of, even if it's a fake until you make it, you know, kind of at first. Sure. And, and just really growing in that, you know, it's the whole idea. You can't give what you don't have, you know, so you have compassion for yourself.

Really your compassion for others is gonna be on shaky ground. But when you're able to be understanding and accepting and compassionate towards yourself, then you're able to more readily give that instead of always looking to like, to get that need met by others. Oh, that makes so much sense. And I think that's something we, we all can grow in, which is such a good challenge, which I love kind of leaving it at that.

But I did wanna just ask you, I know you're starting a, a new ministry. Tell us about that. Tell us what you offer, if you would. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Um, it's just, I've learned so many principles over the last six, 16 years of doing intensive trauma therapy and so really wanna make those available.

I've started doing retreats for, I've done some for, you know, for priests, for deacons, deacons and their wives. And then, um, most recently I did two for, for lay people and just taking basically the same, because these are the principles. Where health and wholeness happen. They're also the same areas where pain happens.

And so taking the same things and making them available in a retreat format. So we can really kind of access those areas where woundedness happens and I've seen. I've seen amazing stuff happen in a very short amount of time that I just never really thought could happen that quickly. And that's really exciting for me because you know, the kind of work I've, done's been one week with the same person, like for the whole week.

And so to be able to reach more than one person, you know, in the retreat format, Through the course of the retreat has been, has been great. So, so retreats, um, father David, ticker, hoof, who's one of the Tor friers and I recorded an online retreat. That's up on my website doing workshops. We're actually like teaching people, the principles and some actual tools to be able to address.

Pain from wounds they've incurred in the past, but also to be able to relate to themselves and the people in their life, more healthily. So workshop, format, retreat format, online retreats kind of thing. Beautiful speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Excited. Yeah. I'm so excited to see how this grows and just the people it helps.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Did, uh, was there anything else you wanted say. No, no, no, just excited. Just excited. You know, it's been like a dream come true for, it's been a long, it's been a long haul and I love trauma therapy, but I don't know. There's something about rounding the corner as you get older and going wait, like even if I live to be a hundred, there's only a certain number of people I could reach.

So just wanting to be able to reach more people so good. And if someone wants to bring in to do a workshop or retreat, uh, speaking engagement or anything else that you offer, uh, how can they. Yeah. If they just contact me through my website, then we can get the ball rolling. So sacred heart healing, ministries.com, or email me at Margaret sacred heart healing, ministries dot.

Sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes guys. So you have easy access to that, but Margaret, thank you so much. You're great. I, uh, always love, uh, talking with you and I'm excited to, to work with you more in the future. And, uh, yeah, I just wanna give you kind of the last word, any final wisdom you'd like to impart to everyone listening when it comes to connection, when it comes to trauma, when it comes to anything related to that, what encouragement would you give to, to everyone?

Wow. Yeah, I would just really say hope because, you know, I mean, I can talk about all this. Like it's, you know, like, like it's so natural to me, but man, if, gosh, as recently as 2003, which I guess is getting 19 years ago at this point, but in some ways it seems like only yesterday when I was. You know, suicidal for 18 months and hospitalized twice and on so many medications and nobody could figure out what was going on.

So, um, so I would just really say hope because I never thought the degree of, of peace and contentment, joy that I live with. Like I never thought was. Possible this side of heaven. so I just say, hang in there. There's more to life than surviving for sure.

Which of the four principles that Margaret taught us is lacking the most in your life. . And in addition to that, what's one thing that you can do today or this week to grow in that area. Give that some thought it doesn't have to be long. It can be a five or 10 minute exercise, but give it some thought, which of the four principles that Margaret taught is lacking the most in your life.

What's one thing you can do to grow in that area. If you enjoyed my conversation with Margaret, you wanna learn more about her connection framework? Just buy Margaret's book fearless. You can get that on Amazon, wherever you buy books, you can click on the link in the show notes as well. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restorministry.com slash 63.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole. And become the person that you were born to be.

Considering Divorce? Why It's Not the Answer

3 minute read.

I hear people say they “fell out of love.”

Couples lament that it “didn’t work out.”

Some realized they were “only staying together for the kids.”

Most often, “we just weren’t happy anymore.”

How awful that must be. To be in a marriage that no longer brings you joy—to feel that the love you once had is no longer enough.

From where I’m standing, lifelong marriage looks like a heroic challenge—nothing short of a miracle.

I’m not exactly what you would call an expert in relationships, especially when it comes to marriage. I’m a newlywed twenty-seven-year-old with a rickety relationship history and not much to offer when it comes to marital advice.

On the other hand, if you are looking for help with using the word“literally” incorrectly, spending too much money on craft beer, or getting on your husband’s nerves, I’m your girl.

Regarding marital challenges, I can imagine what it must be like to not feel in love with your spouse anymore. How painful it must be to slowly become more distant, to feel as though the person you married is a stranger. How difficult it must be to love someone for a lifetime—someone who is inevitably broken and who has undoubtedly hurt you.

If you have made it this far in the great Odyssey that is lifelong commitment, I commend you, honestly. And there is one thing I would like to tell you (married couples); one thing I hope you know (and fear many don’t); one thing many of us seem to forget, or never learned in the first place; one thing that scares me from taking marriage too lightly or a Hollywood romance too seriously.

I say this not as someone with great insight or noteworthy experience, but as someone who has experienced the ramifications of a love that was lost, vows that were broken.

LOVE IS ENOUGH.

It may not always feel like it, but love is enough. It’s not what our culture tells us, but love is enough. You may have never been taught it, but love is enough. It may not be what you want to hear, but love is enough.

It’s enough because it’s a choice you make.

I know. How trite, how tired, how predictable of me to say that—not to mention a little “much” coming from a girl who has been married exactly fourteen months.

But I learned, I felt it, I saw it: what happens when couples treat their marriage as something less than permanent, an empty promise. I can say that it was devastating. I can assure you the effects are long-lasting. I can attest to the grief that comes when “love isn’t enough.”

But it is. Feelings aren’t enough, money isn’t enough, children aren’t enough, jobs aren’t enough, time isn’t enough . . . but love is.

The decision to love is the only thing that is enough. That is why marriage is a commitment. Because when nothing else is keeping you there, the decision to love—the vow you made—demands that you stay.

I can’t pretend to fully understand the difficulty of marriage. I’m sure that to some of you, this is borderline laughable coming from me. What do I know?

I just know what happens when you leave.

As much as divorce has been trivialized and rationalized beyond belief, I can tell you from experience: Your kids don’t just “want you to be happy”—we want our family. We aren’t “resilient”—although we will survive, because we have no other choice. Two homes are not better than one.

Nothing will be the same.

No one will be “better off.”

It can be tempting to see divorce as a cure-all, as the only answer, as the solution to our problems and the way to happiness. However, after the dust settles, research shows that most adults who divorce have lower levels of happiness and higher levels of stress than married couples.

I understand there are circumstances beyond your control. I know that marriage is unexpectedly difficult.

I also know that there are couples who do it. There are people who make it. Marriages that survive countless hardships, changes, and a lifetime of messiness. It is possible. And truly, it isn’t because they got lucky or because it was somehow easy for them. It was their decision; their steadfastness in the face of all the garbage life threw at them and in spite of the brokenness they saw in each other.

They chose to love and kept on choosing—there is never a time when you can’t choose love anymore.

I won’t pretend that I am remotely qualified to give you advice on these matters. But I do want to encourage you, to urge, that if you are struggling, if it has been difficult (maybe for a while) . . . you don’t give up.

Do one thing today to love your spouse: write them a letter, make a mental list of what you admire about them, take a minute to recall the day you met . . . just one thing.

Love doesn’t run out on us, and divorce is rarely the answer. Choose love. Choose your marriage. Choose your spouse, just like you did that day of celebration in front of your friends and family.

There are a plethora of people out there who are better suited than me to tell you how to make your marriage work. I can’t. I can only tell you that love is enough.

And I can ask of you what I asked of my own parents at the age of twelve.

Stay.

My Saving Grace: Marriage Advice after Twenty Years from a Child of Divorce

4 minute read

This is a guest post by Sandra Howlett, she has given us permission to share her work on the blog.

For most of my life as an adult child of divorce, I could never imagine being married. I was terrified of divorce and always wanted to know why marriages didn’t last. But also, deep down, I didn’t think I was the marrying type. Those feelings were not unique to me but something many children of divorce feel because of our wounds. I have now been married 20 years and if it was possible for us, two very broken people, it’s possible for you.

In the Catholic faith, we talk a lot about vocations, the primary way you live your life in connection to others, whether it be as a single person, married, or in religious life. Marriage is a vocation and a sacrament in the church and leads to holiness by nurturing the virtues of love, patience, selflessness, perseverance, and forgiveness. Treating marriage as a vocation was my saving grace.

Don’t Settle for a Mediocre Marriage

My fear of divorce helped early on but later became an obstacle to having a better marriage. When I was freed from those fears by contemplating what divorce might look like and choosing to stay married, I was able to live my marriage more intentionally, setting the bar higher than simply not getting divorced. 

Speak the Truth With Love

Like many children of divorce, I had a hard time with conflict. When a Catholic friend told me our job as married couples is to bring our spouses to holiness it struck a chord with me. I summoned the courage to speak the truth with love, and for the first time felt my husband really heard me without getting defensive or casting blame. It was hard to feel that love in the middle of conflict. It required faith and trust in God, faith and trust in my husband, forgiveness for past behaviors, hopefulness, and the belief that our troubled marriage could be saved.

Don’t Let Resentments Build Up

The little resentments we allow to build up over time kill marriages faster than fighting. Even though we fear conflict and rejection which can make us avoid fights or difficult discussions, suppressing our feelings is even more damaging and dishonest. Resentments build up when we don’t express our needs or truly forgive our spouses.

Resentment Kills Sex

Sometimes we want to forgive our spouse (or think we have) but our hearts tell us otherwise. Whatever the root of resentment—pride, power, fear of rejection—it’s important to identify it. One of the ways to measure it is by your willingness and desire for intimacy. Sex is an important part of the marriage bond and is very difficult to do if you are harboring resentment. That’s not to say that all sex issues in marriage are due to resentment. There are very real differences in men and women’s sexual desires that couples have to navigate which takes meeting each other in the middle and respecting each other’s sexuality.

Forgiveness

Learning how to fully forgive your spouse is a virtue that is not only important to the health of your marriage but will make you a better person. When I had trouble with this, I read multiple books on forgiveness. One of them was Seventy Times Seven by Johann Arnold, in which he wrote, “Nothing withers the soul more than an unforgiving spirit—the poisonous product of pain and pride that craves revenge under the guise of justice.” We need to forgive our spouses on a daily basis, multiple times a day for the little hurts in order to have a healthy marriage and to be at peace with ourselves.

Eliminate Anger 

Many children of divorce have anger problems whether they are aware of them or not. Everyone knew me to be a cheerful, fun-loving, and happy person. But when I was struggling in my marriage, I started to realize the depth of my anger, some of it from unresolved conflicts in our relationship and some from my parents’ divorce. Only I knew how dark my thoughts were. Watch for excessive anger in your life and in your marriage by being mindful of your thoughts and separating your past hurts from the current situation. Though anger sometimes makes us feel powerful and righteous, it is ultimately destructive in our lives and marriages, and usually hurts us more than the person we are angry at.

Never Count the Cost of Love

True love the way Christ loves is radical, never counting the cost or expecting anything in return. Our society is always concerned with not appearing foolish, and asking “what’s in it for me?” Love doesn’t operate that way. You must be a fool in love, loving when it seems hopeless, loving beyond all human reason, loving the way God loves. Never give up on love.

Give Your Spouse the Benefit of the Doubt

When there is ongoing conflict in our relationships, we tend to view every offensive behavior as a willful attack against us. Since we can’t fully know people’s motives or thoughts, we must give them the benefit of the doubt. Assume they have the best intentions unless proven otherwise. 

Focus on the Good

It’s natural and easy to focus on what we don’t like about our spouses but takes discipline to focus on the good. Focusing on the bad can lead to a loss of love, a victim mentality, and resentment. Give thanks daily for all the good in your spouse and your marriage, even finding the good in their less desirable traits. Marriage leads us to holiness, so when you are experiencing hard times in your marriage, thank God for the opportunity he is providing you to grow in virtue.

Be More Concerned with Holiness than Happiness

Our society places a lot of emphasis on personal happiness, and that carries over into our marriages. Marriage is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It can be joyful, satisfying, and rewarding—and also extremely frustrating. We certainly should have moments of happiness in our marriages, but happiness is overrated and is based on emotions that are ever-changing. Pursue holiness and true love seeking the good of the other, over happiness, and be assured that some of our greatest joys are born from our deepest grief.

God Will Never Leave or Forsake You

2 minute read

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 15 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 8 years old. She gave permission for his story to be shared.

HER STORY

I don’t really know an exact answer; as a child, I have always tried to figure this out. When my parents did live together I could tell as a child it wasn’t a healthy marriage. They would always argue though I feel as I get older my memory of when they were married is sketchy and hard to recall.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

It’s hard to figure out how/what I am feeling. When they were married I wanted them to separate because their marriage wasn’t healthy and they would always be arguing. They never communicated well and would always argue. My mom took me to church growing up and still does and I would blame her for not having a Godly dad.

HOW HER PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HER

Yes, I believe having the family I do has impacted me and shaped me into who I am today. My parents’ divorce doesn’t define me but it has shaped me into who I am today.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

Seek after God; know that God will never leave or forsake you. Find someone you trust to talk to about how you are feeling. Don’t be scared to talk to someone. It’s healthy to talk to someone about how you feel. Holding in your emotions and feelings is not healthy.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#062: The Best of 2021: Restored Podcast Highlights

In this episode, you'll hear 7 short clips from the podcast in 2021.

This episode, and the podcast as a whole, will help you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and thrive.

If you’re new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content and learn how it will help you. If you’re a veteran listener, this is the perfect episode to share with someone you know who needs to hear it.

Thanks for listening! We do it for you.

Book a Restored talk

Featured Episodes

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford

#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Our broken marriage. So can Phil ho again, I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 62 and as a way to reflect on the gear, my team, and I wanted to share some of the best moments on the restored podcast.

So you're about to hear seven short clips from episodes published last year. If you're new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content, to see how we can help you. And if you're a veteran listener, I wanna just thank you. Thank you for listening for so long. I hope this has been so.

Helpful useful. And most importantly, practical for you. And I wanted to say to you, this is a perfect episode to share with someone that you know, who really needs to hear this content. The clips are not necessarily in a particular order when we were choosing which clips include. I honestly wanted to choose all of the episodes from last year because they're all really good, but we obviously had to narrow it down.

So we chose seven clips and basically we based it on popularity feedback from you guys and some episodes that just stood. To us, by the way, if after hearing the clip, you wanna listen to a particular episode in its entirety, but maybe you forgot the episode number. Just go to the show notes, to find it@restorministry.com slash 62.

I'll remind you of that link at the end. Our first episode is episode 39, the anatomy of a wound, and how to heal with Dr. Bob shoot. Now, Dr. Baba says psychologist, he's an author, and he spent really his professional life helping people to heal their wounds in this clip. He explains really the anatomy of a wound, how a.

Works.

I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about the anatomy of a wound. You write about this, uh, in your book, be healed. You write that, you know, there's various pieces and parts to wound, and I think it's really helpful if we wanna heal to understand that. And so if you would please teach us about that, break that down for us.

Yeah. And, and let me put it in the relation to the, to the divorce, because it'll become much more alive in this way, but. And, and be healed and, and other material. I talk about three circles. There's like three levels of the heart or three layers of the heart. And on the inside is just the pain from the wound.

So it's, it's trauma. And as we're finding more and more about trauma, trauma stays in your body until it's released and it stays in your mind and it affects the way your brain's organized and it affects the way every cell of your body. And. You know, it, it affects our physical, emotional, spiritual health.

And typically trauma is too much for us to bear in the moment. That's why it takes us a while to work through trauma. But it's not that the trauma's in the past, it's, it's the trauma remains with us until it's released. And so it's released. Through the experience of, of releasing the pain or the anger or the rage or the powerlessness or the fear or whatever manifestation that has.

But, but our bodies and our minds and our souls pulled on to trauma. One of the ways we do that is through our beliefs. And that's the next band. If you will, the next circle in its the beliefs are of two, two types. It's the things that we believe about ourselves, which affect our identity. The way we see ourselves, that's the beliefs we have about other people and about God and about life, which are we call judgements.

You know, they, they're the ways that filter our perception of reality, both about ourselves and about other people. And so in, you know, in the case of, you know, my, my experience of a trauma of abandonment of my dad, And for you two, and there's a rejection in it. Those are different wounds. There's a powerlessness there's fear.

So what we call the seven deadly wounds, all have beliefs associated with them. And so, you know, one of the beliefs and these aren't just beliefs as at an intellectual level, there's deep, deeply held beliefs of the heart, which is I'm alone. I'm not loved. I can't trust anybody. And there's a hopelessness that things aren't gonna get any better.

All those get, if you will lodged into the heart at a deep level, even if our mind knows a different truth or understanding knows a different truth, those, those things kind of hold. We hold onto them and they hold onto us and we actually hold onto them. As a way of protecting against the trauma, believe it or not, even though they keep the trauma in place and keep us in the trauma.

They're, they're in some ways a barrier to that trauma. Hm. And then the judgements we have to other people, you know, it's like the judgements that I made towards my dad or about marriage are about God or about the church or about women, you know, or about drinking, you know, all those things that, that form perceptions that then play themselves out.

When you get involved in relationships. You know, a lot of those judgements have unforgiveness related to them. Uh, and so we work through a process of forgiveness, but also of really recognizing and releasing the judgements because they filter everything. They're like putting on glasses that color, everything that you see.

And then the final outside circle is what we call inner vows or resolutions of the will of ways we're gonna protect ourselves. So one of mine was, I will never divorce. Like my parents, because I'll never want to hurt my children. Like I was hurt and we were hurt or I'll never want to hurt my wife. Like my dad hurt my mother.

And you say, well, that's a really good vow, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it was good when I made it in marriage with the holy spirit. And that's really what I promise and I'm gonna love my wife for better or for worse and sickness and in health. And that vow actually kept us together. But this inner vow wasn't even C.

It was made out of fear and judgment. And in that it, it creates this self-protection that actually almost brought me into a place that was a very thing that I feared. And it's, it's hard to describe that, but it's, it's like I was so in fear of hurting my wife and hurting my children, that I didn't deal with the pain, or even with the conflicts that came up, you know, I was afraid of being afraid of rejecting or afraid.

Being alone or, and so those vows actually led me to insulate and protect and to control, uh, because that's what we do out of fear is we tend to control things rather than trust mm-hmm . And so it creates this whole vicious cycle of destruction that you're not even aware of until you're face to face with it.

And that that really began my deeper healing process. 10 years into my marriage, 10 to 12 years into my marriage.

The key to healing is truly understanding your wounds, truly understanding your brokenness. And you can think of a doctor who can only treat a disease once he diagnoses that disease, once he understands it. And the same is true for emotional. Wounds, you can't heal without first diagnosing without first understanding your brokenness.

And so if you want more check out that episode, that was our most popular episode of the year with Dr. Bob Schutz again, though was episode 39. Next is episode 37. Trauma what it is and how it damages you with Margaret Vasquez. Margaret is a trauma therapist she's been in practice for over 15 years, truly an expert on trauma.

And she's helped so many people heal from trauma, especially people who thought. Healing wasn't even possible, maybe that's to you right now. And so I especially invite you to listen to this clip and then hopefully listen to the full episode with Margaret in this clip we discussed what trauma is and how it affects you.

I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma. the simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope. And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right.

Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because. If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me.

And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by. By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see.

I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma. What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that?

Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It, it, it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't it have been worse? You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting.

Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of could have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason. You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma.

I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood, you know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering. Right. And kind of say, I should have been worth thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me.

And it's really not a matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut. One of the. Biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest. Meaning one of the ones that that's the most effect most affects people is bullying.

And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kind of rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life. Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it.

A great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something. Uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on. Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in the early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and he had been through a lot of verbal abuse from.

His father. And he said to me, worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me. But I just, you know, I just asked him to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you.

Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know, mm-hmm. And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know,

that episode is so eye-opening, there's so much more in it about trauma, about how to heal from it. I highly highly recommend it again. That's episode 30. Episode 58 is next forgiveness. The secret to healing and freedom with father John Burns. And we all know that forgiveness is not easy, but is it worth it?

Father John Burns. Who's an expert on healing through forgiveness shares. Why forgiveness is good for you and why unforgiveness is bad for you. And this is not strictly a religious. Conversation, but rather a human one. And so listen with an open mind, especially if you don't believe in God,

unforgiveness is classically defined as a form of hatred. It, it falls under the category of hatred and, and hatred never leads to anything. Good. Hatred is a vice and it's destructive. It's consumptive. So. Even though we may not immediately think of the places where we have unforgiveness as places of hate.

Unforgiveness is a type of hatred. It's where we're, we're throttling our enemy and demanding repayment. And again, especially sometimes an exorbitant repayment or a type of repayment that can't be had. So it's a kind of a futile posture in which we're very often stuck. I think it was Corey 10. Boom, who said to forgive is to, to let a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner's.

So, so it's liberating because we discover we're clenched up toward our enemies and self-defense posture, survival mechanism, mode, and forgiveness is like a letting go of that, that posture of, of tension and, and a bound up heart putting down the weapons, you know, like not being just like on guard for the next encounter so we can go to battle.

And that all leads us to a certain. Lightness of heart at ease of breathing. I mean like a, a lot of the people I've walked with in, in forgiveness will talk about being able to breathe again after they've forgiven and this living under a constriction prior to that, that they didn't even know about. So it's just liberating aside from increasing our excellence and making our, our lives more like Christ's life, because he's perfectly merciful.

It also frees us up from all kinds of bondage, emotional bondage that has, as you named even a neurological impact. The best way to think about healing is always integration or communion or union and wounding sin, uh, as division separation, fragmentation, our minds even are stories they're fragmented by these painful places is where we shut down or black things out or tried to skip over.

Healing reintegrates or reifies, reifies the, the, the narrative, our own story. Reifies our life into God's life. Reintegrates us into God. Reintegrates our own hearts ends the, the, the war within us thinking, you know, like St. Paul says, like, I. I do the things I do not want to do. And I do not do the things I want to do.

Healing just makes it easier to do the good things and avoid the evil things. And when we notice the other going on it's cuz there's some sin, not only our own, but that which has been inflicted upon us. So forgiveness is just this. I would argue essential and central pathway out of the, the death trap of our wounds.

We, we default to living there, but, but when we discover there's a way out, not only is it hopeful, but it's also totally liberating. And so it's gonna end the hatred. It's gonna end the binding force on our hearts. It's also gonna end all kinds of neurological complexity and physiological complexity.

That episode is. Notch. And if there's someone in your life that you need to forgive, give that a listen for most of us who come from broken families, there's so much hurt. There's so much need for forgiveness. And so if you want grab a pen and paper, open up your notes app and take some notes. There's so much to learn from father John, as he walks through the steps to forgive someone in that episode.

Again, that's episode 58. On deck is episode 56, how virtue results and happiness and freedom with Dr. Andrew Swafford virtue is a habitual disposition to do the good that's the definition that the Greeks use. And it looks like good habits typically, but there's much more than just that it truly does lead to happiness and to freedom, which Dr.

SWER touches on so much more. In this clip,

what exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue ? Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with DRS. And I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says this church is this can't do that.

And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more. So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor.

Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence. That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man role am I becoming?

And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be? Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down.

I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down. I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic.

The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years. And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to you'll be in five years because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person.

And so at virtue, does it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability. To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing.

It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be. We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right?

So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat. And does that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete.

So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like. You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence.

It's about the art of living and living well. I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight.

And I think that's a good reminder. One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, Ashe. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.

Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. I aerosols got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.

It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.

It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous, life's all about.

Dr. Swafford is the man such good episode. I learned so much from him. And if you wanna know more, listen to episode 56 onto the next episode, which is episode 48, fear became reality. I'm just like my father. Bart shoots and Bart shoots is the brother of Dr. Bob shoots, who you heard at the beginning of the episode.

And his story is just amazing. He was at rock bottom. So. So alone and then his life radically changed. And you'll hear a little bit about that in this clip.

After, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist. You know, love doesn't exist. And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned, I just gave up on love and it was in that season and I would just feel guilty and I was alone in my room and full of shame and, and self hatred.

All this stuff. And I was like, I gotta change. And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me, you know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think.

We each, we each have our own journeys, you know, and the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything, honestly. I tried. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude.

And it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed. I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, all relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know, and then I would go right back.

To my vomit, you know, by my vomit is, you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living, just totally lost from who I really was. And just, just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was.

Senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country. And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great.

And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season, I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey, but this one just feels like the last straw.

And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you. I'm like, what, whoa, what are you talking about?

I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates. I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I it's still painful. And she says, you know, she mentions three girls.

She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that? was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father, you know, I made that vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother.

And I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk. And uh, and then this girl says to me, beautiful girl. She says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what?

Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a Virgin. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea. No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again.

Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible? This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope.

Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father. Maybe, maybe things can be different. And, and that began a process.

One of the things I learned from Bart. No matter how bad things get, no matter how hopeless life feels, never give up, never give up. You're never out of the fight. And his story really proves that there is always hope, especially when things feel hopeless. If you wanna hear the rest of his story, listen to episode 40.

Episode 54 is next. How to stop damaging yourself with your words with Chris. And Chris is a very popular speaker and author. And in this clip, he talks about how the words we say to ourselves have a much bigger impact than you might think.

I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war. Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life.

We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed or some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I, the real victory is when we experience a, a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our. Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives.

You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pans out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face. So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level.

In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, a fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother. We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong.

And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them when they look tired and heavy it's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris, but once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because.

So often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there. And so unless you really take time to go through your, I am book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am.

You know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it. They don't show up for it. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads.

On the surface. It might seem like the way that you see yourself, the way that you talk to yourself really isn't that big of a deal. But like Chris said, it literally dictates how your life. We'll turn out. If you wanna hear more from that episode, just listen to episode 50. Our final episode is episode 44 practical tips for becoming a great parent with Mike and Alicia.

Heran. If you wanna become a mom or a dad, one day, you need to know about Mike and Alicia Heran they're parents and parenting experts, and they give really great guidance on how to become a great mom. Or dad. And you're gonna hear a sample of that in this clip.

Uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like, as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah. What are a couple of things that you'd say the main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before before the first, the first thing that comes to mind is chill.

Uh, yeah, we're we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival.

Mm-hmm they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't. You're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, Which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but also, um, there are good moments which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house.

They do kids do grow up so fast. So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that. No, um, but I would, I would say that, that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect area. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Studies showed this. So this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant, as far as like sleep schedules and feeding, and you know, how you respond to them. And you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work.

And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new. so don't worry about getting it all right. And also just enjoy your children more.

That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that you just enjoy our grandchildren and I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10 . I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them and them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling.

You're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that, loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system.

Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes. You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I Don. I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage.

Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good. We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and say, get a better habit of date nights.

Yeah. On a regular for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult, but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs. Um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, it looked a common theme, a common theme. Was, they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids on like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cuz I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered. Um, in our parenting,

one of the struggles for those of us who come from broken families is that we believe that we maybe can't become a great mom or a great dad, and I get it. I've been there, but I'm here to tell you that you can't, you are capable of becoming a mom or a dad, a great mom or a great dad. And even if you didn't see that growing up, even if you didn't experience that, even if you didn't.

Receive that you can give to your kids, whether you have kids now, or sometime in the future, you can give to them what you didn't receive growing up and to do. So check out that episode, you can learn some tips and tactics on how to become the parent that maybe you wish you had, or that you want to be.

Again, that's episode 44. That's a wrap. And before we close out the show, if you're someone who recognizes the pain and the problems faced by teenagers and young adults who come from broken families and you want to help them, we wanna team up with you. A speaking engagement at your school at your church or conference could be exactly what those young people.

Need to hear. And our talks are geared toward helping young people from broken families to do a few things first, to navigate their pain and problems in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, they're also gonna learn simple tactics to heal their brokenness so they can feel whole again, they'll also learn tips on how to build healthy relationships, which can really be a struggle for people like us and so much more.

And some of our speaking engagements have been done. Organizations like Franciscan university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university focus the fellowship of Catholic university students, the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the diocese of San Diego. And as you can tell so far, our speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics.

And so if you're interested in scheduling a live virtual talk, we'd love to talk with you. Just go to restored ministry.com/speaking again, restored ministry. singular.com/speaking. You can view the talks that we offer, and then you can request pricing and more info. And, uh, perhaps if you're ready, we could even get an event booked.

I'd love to serve you. We'd love to serve you again, go to ReSTOR ministry. Dot com slash speaking. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 62. Again, all the episode numbers from the clips that you heard are on that page. If you wanna listen to those whole episodes, thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, Share this podcast with them guys. We really appreciate your support for the podcast in our ministry this year. So many of you have shared the podcast with others or told people about restoring me just can't.

Thank you enough. Thank you so much for everything you've done to support us and to spread this work far and wide from our team at ReSTOR, we're just honored to serve you, and we wish you the best in this new year. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

A Marital Chill Pill: Why Some Countries are Forcing Couples to Wait before Divorce

2 minute read

I think we can all agree that marriage is hard. Even if you aren’t married yourself, it’s easy to imagine how living with someone day in and day out, for years and years, could get dicey. We all have quirks, some of which are harmless, but over time can become annoying. And some which are straight sinful—since we are all imperfect and have a tendency toward vice. People are human, after all.

This alone is enough to cause difficulty—and definitely does—in any close relationship, especially one as intimate as marriage. Add to that the external difficulties people go through—financial hardship, stressful jobs, parenting struggles, etc.—and it’s easy to understand why the decision to just call it quits can be so tempting at times.

That being said, it has become increasingly evident that divorce is harmful to the children involved—and often doesn’t bring the former couple the happiness they hoped for either. 

For these reasons, some countries are attempting to force couples into reconsidering their decision to separate. They are doing this by implementing a period of time that the couple has to stay together after making the decision to divorce but before they can legally do so—a marital “chill pill” if you will. For example, at the beginning of last year, China passed a law that requires couples who are seeking a divorce to postpone for 30 days before formalizing it. As of 2019 in Denmark, parents seeking a divorce are required to take a course and wait three months before they can separate. 

As you can imagine, there has been a lot of controversy surrounding these laws. Many see these restrictions as simply roadblocks to men and women finding happiness again. And though these laws are not supposed to apply in extreme cases such as abuse, some question whether individuals in bad situations are actually being given exemptions or not. Still others believe it is not the role of the government to interfere with marital relationships in this way, regardless of the outcome.

Whether or not you can agree with laws such as these, the reported results of these laws certainly give us something to think about. According to the Chinese ministry of civil affairs. Only 296,000 divorces were registered in the first three months of 2021, as opposed to the 1.06 million the same quarter a year before.

In Denmark, the course was tested between 2015 and 2018 on 2,500 volunteers and the results were “staggering,” according to Dr. Martin Hald from the University of Copenhagen, one of the course creators. 

It seems this time for reflection is serving as a breather of sorts for these strained couples, giving them an opportunity to regroup and get back on track. 

While marriage can be extremely trying, and there is rarely such a thing as a ‘quick fix,’ the findings from these laws challenge the widely held belief that divorce is always the answer to a hard or bad marriage. In fact, in other areas of life we see that this logic doesn’t hold. For example, if a workout routine is exceedingly difficult, you’ll rarely hear someone tell you: “just quit.” If work has become more stressful, you probably won’t simply quit to avoid the difficulty. When your car breaks down you don’t just throw it away without trying your best to fix it first.

Hard things take hard work, and often the most difficult things are also the most worthwhile. These laws remind us that while marital struggles will happen over the course of the years, often difficulties are temporary and almost always can be worked through. Maybe many more marriages can be saved if couples wait just a little longer before pulling the trigger on divorce. 

#061: Will I Always Feel Stuck? | Alexandra M

When Alexandra was in 7th grade, her parents divorced. Almost immediately, she went to counseling, which led her to believe that the effects of her parents’ divorce were in her past. She thought she was healed.

But in college, poor decisions and failed relationships showed her that perhaps it wasn’t resolved like she thought. She woke up on her birthday feeling sad and stuck, asking the question: Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life? 

In this episode, she shares the rest of her story and more:

• How working on herself has now led her to a really beautiful, healthy relationship

• How a memento from her past made her realize how much her parents’ divorce was still affecting her

• The answer to “Do you hate your parents?”

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Alexandra was in seventh grade when her parents divorced and almost immediately, her parents sent her to counseling for some time, which led her to believe that the effects from her parents' divorce were in her past. She thought she was fine. She thought she was healed, but in college, poor decisions that she made and failed relationships showed her that perhaps it wasn't resolved the way that she had thought.

And it all finally caught up to her. It hit her on her birthday. She woke up on her birthday and she felt really sad. She felt like she hit a dead end in life and those feelings. Caused her to ask some really tough questions. She asked, am I gonna be in the same spot for the rest of my life? What is it in my life?

That's preventing me from having a family of my own. And in this episode, she shares the rest of her story. She explains how working on herself has now led her to really beautiful, healthy relationship. She touches on how. Silence has given her a better understanding of her own brokenness and how it's even helped her heal.

She talks about how a memento from her past made her realize how much her parents' divorce was still affecting her. She answers the question. Do you hate your parents? And she also shares how restored has helped her in her healing journey. Really good conversation. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' support, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listen. This is episode 61. If you're someone who recognizes the pain and problems faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families and you wanna help them, we wanna team up with you.

A speaking engagement at your school at your church or conference could be exactly what those young people need. And our talks are geared toward helping young people from broken families to navigate their pain and problems in healthy ways to learn simple tactics that they can use to heal their brokenness so they can feel whole.

Learn how to build healthy relationships and so much more. And some of our clients, first speaking engagements have been FCAN university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university focused the fellowship of Catholic university students. We've also worked with the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco, the diocese of San Diego.

And we'd love to work with you. And as you can tell so far, our speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics. And if you're interested in scheduling a live or virtual talk, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to restored ministry.com/speaking again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/speaking.

You can view the talks that we offer there. You can request pricing, and if you're ready, you can even book an event. So go ahead to restored ministry.com/speak. My guest today is Alexandra. Madrin originally from South Dakota. Alexandra has lived and worked in Denver for the past five years. After hearing about the ReSTOR podcast from her friend, Alexandra began working through the long term effects that her parents divorce left in her life.

Alexandria is enthusiastic about helping others to discover the freedom that comes through personal development and growth, and is an advocate of strong friendships with others who have experienced divorce and the practice of therapy. To heal and grow. She's found that there is hope and goodness after one's parent's divorce and it all comes down to a personal choice to begin again, find healing and trust that your life will be one containing lasting love.

I really loved this conversation with Alexandra. I'm so excited to share it with you,

Alex. It's great to have your friend. Thank you, Joey. It's good to be here. Yeah, we, what we met went earlier this year. It hasn't been too long. We haven't even known each other, I guess what a full year yet, but yeah. Yeah. You've um, you've been through a lot in this last year and we we'll talk about some of that.

I'm sure. But let's go back in time. Let's go back to when. Your parents separated divorce. Mm-hmm . How old were you first of all? When they separated divorce mm-hmm yeah, so they were never really, um, separated. Um, it was kind of a gradual lead up to just divorce and I was in the seventh grade. Okay. Yeah. So you were young mm-hmm

Okay. And that's, that's such a sensitive part of life. Do you remember how old you were at that age? That's like what? 11, 12? Yeah, I think it was like. A lot of it. I don't, I don't really remember, but yeah, in junior high, junior high. Yeah. So however old you are in junior high. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I'm just thinking of like the international people we have.

And so that just such a young tender age mm-hmm what, what happened as much as you're comfortable sharing what happens? Yeah, for sure. So, um, growing up my parents, they fought a. And, and it kind of just got to the point gradually over time, where a lot of, you know, addiction, alcohol addiction, and just some struggles that they were having just got worse and worse and, um, some financial struggles and kind of just reached a tipping point.

I think it was in 2007 or eight where yeah, they're just. One parent had enough and, and filed for divorce. So that's, , that's kind of the gist of the story. There's nothing else really, to it, aside from there was just a, a gradual buildup of, of struggle. Totally. Mm-hmm and that's one of the things I think, and it's important to point that out because.

I think a, one of the misunderstandings that people have when I talk to them about resort and what we try to do mm-hmm is that they think maybe we're solely focused on the event of the divorce mm-hmm , but so often, and this is what I typically say. It's like, it's not like a, an atomic bomb randomly went off.

It's like, there's been problems in the marriage for years and years, usually. Mm-hmm and all that lead up is part of the trauma. It's part of the difficulty it's part of what really affects us. It's not just the event of the divorce, so that in and of itself, it's not worthy to say that that does affect us in a unique way.

Mm-hmm , but everything that led up to a. Is part of it as well. Mm-hmm so I think, yeah, it makes sense that mm-hmm it was gradual, I would say it's probably most people's experience, but how did you see that affect you? How did your parents broken marriage? Mm-hmm their struggles, their divorce. How did that affect you?

Yeah. Um, well, when it was going on, um, I did actually go to a therapist or a counselor at the time, so I was in junior high and then, you know, after they filed, I kept going just during. This time of all of this happening. Um, yeah. So at the time I thought, you know, this is really great. I'm getting the help I need.

And, and then I went off to college and I thought. I thought that I was good to go. I was like, yeah, I I've healed from this. I, you know, my parents aren't necessarily in the super great place, but at least things are kind of settled down now. Mm-hmm and this is the, the new normal, I thought phrase, but , it's the new normal.

Um, and so, yeah, I, I thought I was fine, but in college looking back and I didn't really realize this in the time, but in college I was making a lot of really, really dumb decision. Kind of, a lot of people would consider this pretty normal for college behavior, but, um, for the kind of person that I am and the per the people who raised me, it was not normal for me to act that way.

And so just a lot of partying and getting into things that, that I shouldn't have been getting into. And I look back now and I really, I really see that that was, that was a coping mechanism. I was really trying to, yeah, I'd run away from, from some pain. At that time. Totally. What did that look like day to day?

Like mm-hmm , you know, were you aware that you were coping in unhealthy ways or was it kind of just like, this is my life and mm-hmm then you later realized. Maybe this isn't the best way to live? Absolutely not. Yeah. I would fill my day from like three jobs in college and I would work. Wow. Like one job from at the student center from like 10 to two, so I could study and then I would get up and I'd be the barista at the student center from eight to 11, and then I'd go to class and then I'd teach wow.

Ballet from three to five. And then you. Sleep wow. In, in between. So I was really, yeah. Outside of just making like bad decisions, as far as like drinking, uh, excessively, I was also really just every minute of my day I was doing something mm-hmm, trying to find a place kind of trying to find like, okay, what's, you know, what's my purpose?

Where, where am I supposed to be? And at what time am I supposed to be there? Just kind of every. Filling it up. Were you afraid of solitude? Were you afraid of kind of facing yourself in mm-hmm a lack of busyness, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I still struggle with that. I really, yeah. I just, I I'm like such a productive person, but it's, it is hard to just sit and be.

And I think a lot of that is because I know when I'm sitting, um, in silence or yeah, I'm a Christian. So sitting in prayer. Yeah. I tend to navigate towards, you know, the areas of my life, where it's like, okay, I'm struggling in this. So a lot of that navigation goes towards yeah. My parents divorce. So of course it makes sense to just fill that time.

So you don't have to think about it. It's easier. I know, gosh, for so many years I just saw it an escape and I'm still tempted to that. Right. It's like, It's so much easier at times, just to drown out your pain or your problems and not face them and not deal with them. And so totally relate to that. I, uh, speaking of solitude, it, it can be scary.

It's like the scariest person to face, I think is yourself. Mm-hmm . And I remember, uh, at one point I was driving in the mountains alone. So for everyone listening, we Alexandra and I both live in Denver, Colorado. And so we have the beautiful Rocky mountains out here and. You know, I know you love the mountains.

Mm-hmm, , we've been skiing together. We, um, yeah, I I've been at times taking drives and mountains by myself. Um, and, uh, I remember I was meeting up with some friends and I was getting late at night and there was just like, no one in the car with me and I was alone and I was like, so uncomfortable. mm-hmm this is, this is like a few years back.

I'm like, this is like horrible. Like I really need to, I felt that loneliness that I really hadn't felt for a long time. Partly because like, you know, I've filled my life with friends and with my own marriage and now with Lucy, but, uh, yeah, I think it is good to go there even though it is scary. Mm-hmm yeah.

And, and the silence is when you really, you really start to understand what what's missing. I think, uh, for me, when I would go into that silence, I, I would go into kind of the memories too at times, so totally. Never never fun, but yeah, there's, there's work to be done. And, and I think any, yeah, anybody who's gone through a, a divorce or a parent's divorce, I think they can attest to that.

That, um, there's always gonna be work to be done. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's not like. yeah, you reach the, the summit and then you check it off your list and never deal with that. Again, mm-hmm, one thing a that struck me when I met you just getting to know you and like what you were up to in life and like your work situation is like, I did, I could tell you were a hard worker mm-hmm like, I could tell you were like structured, have a structured life you, you know, get after it.

And I admire that. And even hearing that about you in college, like three jobs. So you mentioned how it was kind of a way to fill the time and to kinda keep you busy. If you were comfortable talking about this was the financial side, a struggle too, cuz you mentioned. That that was for your parents. Mm-hmm and I know for a lot of us, um, that was the reality.

Like I know my parents like handled money very, very poorly mm-hmm and, um, so my siblings and I have just, you know, I, I don't like pay my parents for it or anything. I think there's been a lot of good lessons in just trying to like, find our own way. Yeah. It's a lot of us like, deal with that. So I'm just curious, was that part of the motivation to work so many jobs or did you just wanna get out and do stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was entering college at a time where both of my parents couldn't really help a ton with, you know, they couldn't provide full tuition. so sure had to figure that out as some, some capacity, so definitely needed to work the capacity of which I was working in college. Was not necessary.

And, you know, the partying lifestyle obviously comes with expensives. So, okay. A lot of that had to do with, you know, okay. I wanna pay to go to this sorority event or mm-hmm, go to Sioux falls and South Dakota where I, I went to college and yeah. And, and get a new dress for this event or whatever it was.

There was a lot of, um, A lot of unnecessary kind of spending too, so. Totally. Yeah. No. And that makes sense. And one of the things, um, That John Eldridge writes about. He, you know, he's so insightful, John Eldridge. I dunno if you've read anything about him, but he, uh, he wrote wild at heart. Mm. And he talks about it a lot about men mm-hmm

And one of the things he says in his one book fathered by God, is that a lot of times, and I don't know if this is true in your case too, but this is what I've observed in people I've known who come from broken families. Mm-hmm a lot of times guys, especially will. Grow up, get a real job, you know, start making real money.

Mm-hmm and then they start buying themselves like toys mm-hmm and his insight is that part of the reason they do that often is because they weren't like delighted in as kids mm-hmm like they didn't receive the love, the affirmation, the attention that they craved. And so when they get into a position where they can afford it, they start kind of doting themselves, like.

You know, putting, bringing all these gadgets in their life or cars or doing expensive trips and things like that, which in and of themselves, like not bad things mm-hmm , but, um, but there there's a deeper need there and that, that was his insight. So is that something that you can relate to? I'm curious on the feminine side of it, cuz it's different for a guy I think.

Yeah. I don't, I don't think so. A lot of just, yeah, working in college and, and getting nice things was maybe to fill void, but, but mostly just to fill the time. Totally. Yeah. Makes a ton of sense. Dating relationships. Mm-hmm so I know this is like one of the main themes for your story. Yeah. Is there, were there were struggles there?

Yeah. Talk to me about that. How has, you know, everything you went through with your family affected your dating relationships? Mm-hmm yeah, I would say it is the main theme. It's kind of what's brought me to this podcast. I would say. So in college was in some relationships, just super unhealthy, again, coping pain, all that stuff.

And then when I got outta college, I didn't date for a while, but Billy didn't know like what healthy was. Yeah. What , what is healthy? Um, I had, I had friends and family and healthy relationships, but when it came to mine, I was just doing something wrong. So I got out of our relationship late last year and woke.

It was kind of like two weeks before, uh, my birthday or three weeks before my birthday. And I get O I get up in, in the morning of my birthday and I'm just, I'm so sad. And I'm like, why am I so sad? it's my birthday. And I, I just started thinking and I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I'm ever gonna not be in the place that I am.

On my birthday, if I don't kind of seriously change something in my life, um, I really desired a family, but, but not to the extent of like changing my relationships to get there. And that was kind of the, the turning point for me is, is that birthday. And that week of kind of like unpacking what is. In my life, that's preventing me from, from eventually having a family of my own and, um, I would just date not with serious intention.

A lot of 'em went the same, just not towards marriage. And that's something that I desired, but I was like, why can't I get there? Yeah. So. I, I just took a step back and I was like, okay, something's missing here. And then a couple months later, just some events happened. And I found a picture of, of my family when I was a really little girl.

And that, that picture just caused me to, just to stop. I just broke down and I. I just sobbed. And I was like, this is not really a normal reaction of finding a picture of, of your family together. Right. And I started, yeah. I started thinking like, maybe there's something that I thought had been, uh, completed in therapy when I was in the seventh grade.

That is maybe still lingering . Yeah. And decided. Yeah, just with a lot of conversations with my friends that maybe I should go back to therapy and start thinking about relationships and, and what, what I could work on to eventually someday have a family of my own. Yeah. Wow. And that that's a big step. We were talking before we were recording.

We were having dinner actually. And, um, you were saying how. Yeah, that, that takes a lot of courage to just kind of like take those first steps down that path. And, but you did it and you're on the path. Mm-hmm and that's, I think that's such a victory in and of itself because there's so many people who just aren't, you know, they, they feel stuck, like you said, mm-hmm they feel the sadness.

They struggle with, you know, excessive drinking and they struggle with other unhealthy ways of coping mm-hmm , but they never take those steps to kind of, to overcome that, to heal what's at the root of all that. And so, yeah, I just admired you for getting after it and walking down that path, but it took some time, right.

Mm-hmm to get there. Yeah. And I think it's something that a lot of people need to come, uh, to terms with on their own, where they kind of get to this place where they're like, okay, I'm at a dead end again and again, and again, with the things that are important to me in my life. And so, yeah, it takes a ton of courage and I.

I really encourage anyone who's there who maybe today is your birthday or, you know, your birthday's next week and you're waking up and you're saying, gosh, am I gonna be this? Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life? Because I, I can't deal with, you know, what happened when I was younger.

You can, you can. And, and I know cuz I did and you're, you're so strong. It's so. But nothing is gonna change unless you deal with it. Dang. Wow. sorry. You're good at this. No, that that's me to drop a, a truth, Bob, but there it is. There it is. Wow. No, that's so, and that's so hopeful too, because I think those of us who've been in those really dark places.

I think sometimes we can forget what it's like to be there. Mm-hmm and there there's people listening right now who are right there right now. and so everything you just said, it's like, yes, like that's so, so hopeful. Like you can't, you don't need to have that life. You can have something better, which is just mm-hmm.

so beautiful. Switching gears a little. So often for those of us who come from broken families, there were certain things that we needed from our parents that they never provided for us often, not through malicious intent. Mm-hmm, , it's just, they were so busy with their own pain in their own lives that they just didn't give us what we needed.

Mm-hmm what did you need from your parents that, you know, they weren't aware of or didn't provide for you? Yeah, I'd say probably emotional stability, something that. It's really hard to come to terms with is that, you know, when parents are getting divorced, it's a very unnatural thing. So, uh, no one usually gets married with the intention of divorcing.

And so when. when parents get divorced, um, their emotions, they're dealing with those, you know, all over the place. And yeah, a kid at, at any age really needs, um, yeah, emotional stability from a parent. And so really throughout my life, I've had to learn how to set boundaries with, you know, emotional relationships.

I think I, I have a, a deep mercy for my parents because I know that. I know that they, they probably did the best they could, but as a, as a adult, now I look back and I'm like, yeah, I, I, wasn't given the, the emotional maturity that a parent needed to provide. Totally. And I totally can relate to that too. I, I think a lot of our parents were dealt a bad hand, not to say our generation is perfect, cuz we're not, we have own flaws for.

And not to say that we'll all be perfect parents. We won't we'll screw our kids off in some ways. I'm sure. But I, I think there is like, at least we have something to look back on and see, like our parents grew up through pretty crazy times. Mm-hmm like what? Sixties? Seventies, eighties, like all that. Yeah.

I think now we're starting to look back and unpack like, yeah. The way that a lot of us were parented, just wasn't adequate mm-hmm and you know, like you said, a lot of us say they did the best they can, but objectively we can look back and say it could have been better. Mm-hmm and, um, and that's not, you know, us saying that we hate our parents.

In fact, I wanna ask you, do you hate your parents? Absolutely not. Okay. , that's, that's one of misconception that I think a lot of people have about resort is that they're like, oh, you're trying to get people to hate their parents. And like, no, no, we actually wanna like kill those relationships. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a definite reality that your family can be good again. Hmm. There's a grief that, you know, anybody whose parents are divorced, uh, lives with for the rest of their life. it is it's. yeah, it's sad. And with that sadness is yeah. Grief. And, but the, but on the other, on the other end, there is a light that, that people can change and heal.

And I think that parents can love their kids better throughout their lives, you know? So totally. I, yeah. I love, I love both my parents dearly we have great relationships with both of them, so that's beautiful. Definitely. Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure there's struggles, but we all have those struggles. And I know, yeah.

Lately my parents have been more cordial to each other. Mm-hmm the, the divorce was tough. It was, they were just, it was a three year process and a long divorce mm-hmm is two years mm-hmm and it was like three. So it was just so ugly and messy and full of drama. Thankfully, a lot of that has kind of died out.

There's still struggles though, but, but I could say too, Typically get along with my parents much, much better now mm-hmm than I did in the past. And that's one of the things for any parents listening right now. Uh, we love you guys. We're just often dealing with our own stuff and, uh, we might not totally know how to handle every situation.

It can, it can be hard and. Uh, there can be situations that almost feel impossible to us. It's like, I don't know what to do in this situation. It's, mm-hmm, like a lose, lose situation. I know I've dealt with that, but to any parents watch are listening, you play such a major role in helping us deal with the trauma, with the brokenness in our own lives.

You might not be able to be the one that's there for us through all of it. Um, we might need that space. At least the research I've seen has said that the parents play a huge role in helping us to, to navigate life, um, after the fact. And so, uh, I, I think it, it's good for you as a parent to understand that you are needed, you are important, both parents, mom, and dad.

And so, um, you have an important role to play. So with that, let's get into. coping and healing. So you gave an example of kind of unhealthy coping mm-hmm . How about on the flip side, what were some things that you did maybe two or three things that helped you cope in healthy ways and then ultimately helped you begin to heal as well?

Mm-hmm so the first decision that I had to make to get there was just to do it to acknowledge. Yeah, this is gonna be hard. I might turn into an unpleasant person while this is happening. so, yeah. Did you warn all your friends? And I, I did. I talked to my roommates and I was like, Hey, listen, I'm thinking about, you know, going to therapy to revisit some of the childhood things that happened in my life.

So they knew, and they were super supportive, but. Good for you, by the way, most people wouldn't do that. I was kind of joking, but oh, wow. That's amazing though. That's really good. Yeah. I was like, I better warn them if I'm like gonna be crabby. I don't know. So um, yeah, so I, I actually that's the first thing is I, I sought out a therapist and found somebody I really liked and she's been wonderful and that has been unbelievably difficult, but so worth it.

Um, so if you're even. Considering it, I hope you do go forward with it. Aside from therapy. Um, really finding, I think it's important to have friends who have been in the same situation for me personally, it can be very difficult to have a friend group of. Of friends with perfect families. And I know not every family's perfect, but there's some that are pretty darn close yeah.

Especially comparatively, like, yeah, I know I've looked at my family and then friends of mine, like mm-hmm you have a really good family. Yeah. And I, I'm definitely not advising you to go out and, you know, find a bunch of. Of friends only from divorced parents, but it is helpful to have, um, some friends that really do understand because they've been there.

I have a couple friends that I call upon, um, and that call upon me and we, we really support each other around difficult times. Like the holidays, if there's weddings or whatever, the, the family events are coming up. It's really helpful to have people who understand because they know themselves because they've gone through it.

Totally. Yeah. That's been really helpful for me too. Yeah. Cause a lot of times I think we feel like freaks. We feel alone. We feel like, why am I so bothered by this? Everyone else seems to be fine. Everyone else says it's for the best. Everyone else says my parents, you know, your parents are happier. You should be happy to mm-hmm.

But then we feel this hurt. We feel this emptiness, we feel stuck in life and we know like, no, something's not right. So if you have people who say mm-hmm, actually, that's an appropriate response for what you've been through. You're not weird at all. Mm-hmm , that's suffering. Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and kind of going off of what you just said, there are scars left behind.

So even if it is the, you know, the best or whatever, the situation or whatever anybody's telling you about your parents' divorce, um, there's still a scar left on everyone that was involved and that scar does not go away. And sometimes that scar is more visible around certain times of the year or certain events like, uh, weddings or funerals, whatever it is that brings up those family gatherings, those scars are, are out to, and everyone can see them.

And so, yeah. Yeah. Something to remember. Yeah. It can be hard to deal with. It's like, you know, you fall and cut yourself. Mm-hmm , it's like you can heal the wound. Or, you know, men, the moon a bit mm-hmm but the scar's still gonna be there. Mm-hmm , it's a good reminder. Aside from therapy and friends. Was there anything else that was helpful?

Yeah, I mean, uh, I think as hard as it is spending a lot of time alone, as much as you can, to just really be honest with yourself. So if you see, you know, in different areas of your life, where you are, you're backing away. you're avoiding talking to somebody and your family, or you are you're struggling in relationships, really take, I would recommend.

And this is what I did is I just really took a step back, spent a lot of time alone, reflecting and even outside of therapy. So you do a lot of reflecting in therapy, but a lot of time, you know, just taking some time to be alone and work on yourself. Yeah. It's. Yeah. It's the hardest work you'll ever do, right?

Mm-hmm yeah. Coming from someone who you work hard, right? Yeah. I know you, gosh, you put so much time for studying for the LSAT and now looking at law school and just the jobs mm-hmm , you know, the jobs you've done the job you're in right now. So it is hard work mm-hmm and I'd much rather do a lot of other things than that.

We're always a work in progress. Mm-hmm I know you would say you're working on it still, but mm-hmm, , how's life different for you. How have you seen yourself grow and improve even in, you know, I know you've said this is relatively recent for you. Mm-hmm but yeah, you, you, I could tell you've grown. How have, have you grown?

Yeah. Um, there's such a freedom and, and first acknowledging like, Hey, I need help. I'm, I'm struggling with these, these, um, these memories and, and this grief, um, I think I've changed specifically because I've, I've really been able to learn how to love better around me. And, and I think healing really comes from.

accepting love from others as well. So, um, I'm in a, in a relationship right now and it's, it's going really well. Yeah. Um, and I think that, um, I've learned a lot through this relationship about, yeah. Just how to love someone better. And that's, that's a huge for me, a huge win it's. It's a. , it's a really hard thing to do.

Um, you have to dig with great courage, look at your life honestly, and say, I'm struggling. I need change. But when you do that, the fruit that comes after that is so, so good. You said you were able to learn to love better mm-hmm but that didn't just happen right away. Mm-hmm was there some sort of progression where you, I know you, you know, woke up and saw, man, I have all these failed relationships.

Like they're not going where I want them to go, which ultimately is to marriage and family life. Mm-hmm which, by the way, I know, you know, this mm-hmm that's normal for people like us. We typically have more failed relationships. Mm-hmm which sucks. but it's just part of the deal. Mm. . Yeah. I mean, I'm guessing your friendships played a role in that, but was there anything else in terms of like learning to love mm-hmm that helped you turn a corner or get to a point where you can love the way that you're loving right now in your mm-hmm dating relationship.

Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I think, um, there's this, this analogy is like the, um, Adam and Eve. Analogy that I've heard, uh, from a couple different people, but it's basically, um, when you think of the sin that, that you've committed, it really has all comes down to the fact that she was grasping for that apple. Um, it wasn't like freely given to her, you know, it wasn't an act.

It wasn't, it wasn't a gift. Um, it was, it was grasping for something there. And I think when. Adult children are divorced kind of step back and they're like, okay, I'm gonna receive this gift of like, of healing, but also I'm gonna stop grasping for what I think a relationship is. And I'm just gonna pause.

And work on myself until I'm given that gift and that healing, I think that's a really good place to be. So for anybody out there, that's maybe either struggling in relationships or is wondering, like how do I change? Just pause and, um, really work on yourself first mm-hmm because I know I was really grasping for just for things that were not there, which is not loving someone at all.

So when you stop grasping, you're really able to be free to love. that's beautiful. That takes a lot of patience and. courage, like you said before to just kind of be still and not grasp. I think American culture especially is all about grasping mm-hmm right. Where the ambitious culture in a lot of ways, not that others aren't, but in a lot of ways, that's like very signature of American culture.

So that is, that is such a different approach and that's hard, but that's beautiful. They've learned that, uh, I love the point you made about working on your. I think a lot of times, all of us, almost all of us, we really, we want really beautiful relationships. We want happiness. We want love, we want all those good things, but we don't really make the connection that you just made, that your personal condition typically is reflected in your relationships.

Mm-hmm so if you're a mess, your relationships are probably gonna be a mess too. . And so taking that time to begin working on yourselves and mm-hmm or on yourself, and like you said, it's always a work in progress. Mm-hmm , but it is something you can make substantial progress on. And then when you enter in a, a relationship, you're at a point where you can continue that work in the relationship mm-hmm and that's something that you alluded to too.

It sounds like the relationship you're in right now has been healing in itself, which is really beautiful. Did you wanna talk about that at all? Yeah, for sure. so yeah, I was actually, uh, the first person I brought home. Since, you know, early college. So it's kind of a big deal. Yeah. It is a bigger deal. I think for adult children of divorce or, or teens or young adult children of divorce to bring significant others home, because it can be a very messy thing to see.

So it's very vulnerable to put somebody in that atmosphere of, yeah. Hey, this is our family, even though our family's. If somebody's not really privy to that, it can be, yeah, it can be scary. So a very healing experience in my relationship has, yeah, just been able to, to, uh, bring them home and, and reveal reveal our family.

Um, and have that completely accepted. Wow. But there's obviously there's conversations that have to happen before that happens. So working on myself has led to me, realizing those conversations have to happen before, you know, you jump right into, Hey, come. Come meet my family. So it's like a preliminary work to the preliminary work.

Okay. To the event. Nice. Okay. So lots of steps, but yes, it's good. You gotta go through it if it's okay. What were some of those conversations that you had that maybe can give people listening right now who, um, are a little bit behind you on the path? Uh, and a guide to maybe talk about this, talk about that before you get to that point, what were some of those conversations?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So , for me, it, it looked a lot like sitting them down and kind of explaining to the level of comfort that you feel mm-hmm , there are some things about my family that I would like you to know before you meet them. Mm-hmm like literally those words. Exactly. I love my family. We are a close family, or we are not a close family.

Whatever your situation is. here's some context as to what it might be like to prepare you for this visit. I, I feel this way around my family and I may act this way around my family because of these reasons. Hmm. At the end of the day, I love my family, but we are all still a work in progress because of what happened.

Yeah. Okay. I'm sure you had other conversations too, but that like that alone is, yeah, that's powerful. It's really helpful. How did he react to that? Not to put him on the spot yeah, no, he was super understanding and honestly, very much more understanding that I thought so for a while it was kind of like, does he come, does he.

And at the end of the day, it was like, this is, you know, when you're seriously dating someone, it's, it's a reality that they're gonna have to meet your family eventually. Yeah. If you're gonna move forward and grow. So it was, for me, at least it was kind of like this has to happen eventually. Mm-hmm and I've been doing the work.

So now is the time I love that. courage. Yeah. Dig deep, you know? awesome. You're getting me pumped up. good. Um, how did it go at home? Great. So much better than I ever thought. Honestly, complete piece. It was a really great situation. So I think it's. It's also a great conversation to have, you know, and maybe think about first, um, before you have that conversation of, okay.

What is, what's a good timeline to bring someone home or what what's too long. mm-hmm yeah. How much time should you spend with certain people? You know, people who maybe. Um, are very triggering or, or cause you a lot of anxiety, maybe don't spend the whole time with them. So just kind of common sense like that.

Yeah. But think about those things ahead of time. And I I'd say it's never a bad idea to just prepare as much as you can. Mm-hmm . But in my experience, it went a lot better than I thought it would. So kind of going back to the, you know, have courage and be brave because it could go really bad, but it could also, it could go really well.

And if, and if that person. is, is the person. And they're gonna understand, and they'll love you through it. Mm-hmm and one of the things you said before struck me just how you kind of warned him, that you may be a little bit of a different person. I dunno if you put it in those words. Exactly. But I know for me, a lot of times, like I kind of go back to my old self when I'm with my family.

I think that's a pretty typical experience. Mm-hmm you go home you're with your siblings. You're with your mom, your dad, whatever the scenario is. And. yeah, you kind of revert to maybe an older version of yourself. So I think it is wise to warn someone be like, I might be a little bit more this way. Mm-hmm than you might know me.

Yeah. That that's really, really good. And you mentioned peace mm-hmm this relationship you told me is, but there's been a lot of peace. Mm-hmm I'm sure there's been. Struggles and things along the way, but for the most part am I, did I hear you right? That there's, there's been a lot of peace, a lot of peace.

Yes. That's beautiful. Contrast that with the past, like, what were your, what did you feel in your relationships in the past? Mm-hmm , you know, I think it's, it's difficult to nothing in life is gonna be peaceful if you haven't kind of done the work for that piece to arrive. So yeah. Had I maybe worked on myself and, and these issues that I was having personally.

Before meeting past boyfriends, maybe they have would've gotten differently. But I think the lack of peace was really, honestly, I think it was a lot on me. Hmm. Because I didn't really know what I wanted because I didn't really believe in marriage I didn't really think that. And that's maybe dramatic, but I didn't believe in marriage for me.

I should say didn't really know what, what could that look like in my life? what, what would it look like to really share my days with someone and have that work out? What decisions would I have to make to, to have that happen? So all of those questions weren't being asked, so it was more of a hobby than a vocation.

Dang. There's a quote. that's beautiful. Yeah. And I think a lot of people approach dating like that, where it's kind of like a, sport's like recreation. It's like something to, like you said, a hobby, something to do. Yeah. As opposed to like a means to an end, which would be figuring out if you're meant to spend your life with this person.

Mm-hmm . Yeah. So that's beautiful. You, you made that switch, uh, you didn't believe that marriage could work for you. Why was that? Why not? You? Yeah, I, I thought that honestly, I just wasn't ready and I didn't think I was ever gonna be ready. I had lost a lot of faith because I had had dated a lot. Mm-hmm and again, if I would've just started doing the work earlier, I wouldn't have dated so much probably, but I don't know.

Maybe not fair. You never know. You could always go back, but you just never know you are where you're supposed to be. I. yeah, that, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. And you were kind of worn out and mm-hmm, kind of ready to throw the towel in and was part of it too. Were you just skeptical about the idea of marriage lasting cuz you saw your parents fall apart?

Yeah. I had been in weddings for, for friends and those weddings. I totally believed that they and still do believe. That they will work and that their strong marriages, there was just something, I think when it came down to me that because growing up didn't have the example in the home of what a marriage is, is supposed to be.

Like, I never, I wasn't constantly thinking of like on my wedding day or when I have kids. Or my marriage, because when you're not around that all, all the time, you don't think about it for yourself, you know? Yeah. Kind of think of it as like, okay. The senior class, um, in high school, everyone's talking to each other, you're around it all the time.

Who's gonna go on and do what with their lives. We're all talking about it. Right. Mm-hmm but when you grow up with a family, um, is not without a good a marriage. And that ends in divorce. It's not as much talked about as like, what is your, your future marriage gonna look like? You just don't talk about it.

No, no, you don't and yeah, man, there's so much there. A lot of times, I think there's a temptation to, yeah. Either run for men. Just think like that's not really an option for me. Mm-hmm . Or what I've seen on the other end of the spectrum is kind of idolizing it and making it into this thing. That's like, oh, it's gonna be so much better than what my parents had.

And it just becomes this like unrealistic thing that I'm working towards that once I get to it or get in it, it is going to be disappointing because it's not a fairy tale. It's not something that you can make the complete inverse of what your parents had. So there there's a lot there. That makes so much sense.

And it sounds like, um, and I think a lot of people like us deal with this, uh, marriage kind of becomes unattractive. Mm-hmm , it's like, well, why would I do that? I mean, it just seems, you know, looking around at the people in my life or at my parents, it just seems like it just ends in a lot of pain and dysfunction and unhappiness and misery, and like all that stuff.

It's like, mm-hmm who would want that if that's all you've been exposed to. Right. Mm-hmm yeah. And, and would someone ever. Me with all this baggage. Hmm. That's a big lie that I think a lot of, of, um, children of divorce experiences, this who are dating his experience, this lie of, of, you know, I, I just can't give them what they need because I have this part of me that's really broken, but it is, is a lie entirely.

Going back to what you said, you know, the person. That's meant for you that you hopefully marry someday will accept you in, in all of your brokenness. So that's something that I really had to, to call out as a lie and start remembering that, that that's just not true. Dang. That sounds like a long and painful process, but mm-hmm, , you've done so much and I'm sure we could talk forever about that.

Mm-hmm I did wanna ask you. If your parents were listening right now, mm-hmm what would you want them to know? What would you say to them? I think I would tell them that we all experienced in our family, this tragedy and, and at first and foremost would want them to know that I loved them. even though, um, it was really hard for us.

I'd also want them to know that. That the tragedy of their divorce has actually given me kind of a messed up way has given me a lot of freedom to understand myself and to love better. So, and not that I would thank definitely. I would definitely tell them I'm working on myself. I'd really like you to go do the same.

Be. We could just leave it at that, but I do want to, yeah. Let's keep going. yeah, no, I do wanna ask, um, if people wanted to reach out to you mm-hmm how do they, how can they do that? Mm-hmm yeah. I am always free to talk and, and listen, I'm on Instagram. You can email me. Um, my Instagram is, is Alexandra.

Underscore mad, M a T T E R N. Feel free to reach out otherwise. Uh, shoot me an email. Alexandra GMA, Gmail dot. You can also get my information through Joey, if you'd, if you'd like to gimme a call or text, happy to, to be a, a source of encouragement and, um, a friend to walk with you because this is not an easy journey to walk through.

So we gotta stick together. Amen. Not at all. It's not easy, but I do wanna ask you, how has restored helped. Yeah. Not, not to tutor on horn, but just to see, like what's been helpful. What, what is, what have we done that has been useful and helpful to you? Cuz we wanna do more of that. Mm-hmm so what, yeah, what's been helpful.

Yeah. So this podcast, actually, somebody sent this podcast to me on the same week that I found that, that picture of my family. So providential in that way, but yeah, um, this podcast has been unbelievably helpful for me just to realize that there's a lot that I think, you know, growing up, you don't realize that you went through that other people also experienced, so it kind of, it gives you a community.

It also. I, I mean, I would really recommend listening to this podcast with a pen and a paper piece of paper, writing down things that, um, stood out to you and then really sitting with those things afterwards. So I would do that a lot as I would jot something down. Um, I think on a past podcast I wrote down, somebody said it hurts to remember, but it'd be worse to forget.

So. I wrote that down. And I think about that a lot. So it'd be, it'd be worse to forget. So sometimes it's, it's just worth it to remember, you know, so good. Yeah. I wanna give you the last word, first of all, thank you so much for coming on. It takes gots. It takes courage. Like you've been talking about a lot to do something like this to share your story in such a vulnerable way, uh, with people you don't know.

So thank you seriously. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm what words of encourage. Would you give to someone listening right now, especially a young person who just feels so broken in life who feels stuck like you did, especially in their relationships because of what happened in their family because of their parents' broken marriage.

What encouragement, what advice would you give to them? I think I'd want any child, a divorce to know that every day that you decide to start the process of unpacking and adjusting and really dealing with, um, the events that happened. And the reality that is now, you know, your parents' divorce. That is a gift that you're not just giving yourself, but you're also giving to those around you.

So it is not selfish to work on yourself. It is a gift and it is loving the people around you when you choose to, to, um, work on yourself and to deal with these things. And, and you can do it.

One question I loved from the show is when Alexandra. Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life. And I, I love that question cuz it's such an honest question. I think all of us need to ask that, especially when we feel stuck, we need to look up and really face the reality of where we're at in life.

And I think it's only by doing that, that we'll be able to get unstuck and move ahead in life. Move forward in. Heal any brokenness in our life. That's holding us back. And so how about you? Are, are you gonna always be in the same spot for the rest of your life? And if you want something different, how are you gonna go about healing?

How are you gonna go about growing? Give this some thought this is certainly worth a little bit of time. Like I mentioned at the beginning, if you wanna hire. Stored, if you wanna hire me to come in and do a live or virtual event, just go to restored ministry.com/speaking. We'd love to work with you. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 61.

Thanks so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling because of their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe even just their broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again. And become the person that you were born to be.

A Fresh Start: Five Simple Tips to Set and Keep New Year's Resolutions

3 minute read

2022 is just over twenty-four hours away. Are you ready? Whether you are or not, the new year is coming for all of us. And as we all know, this is a great time for some self-reflection. Coming up with New Year’s resolutions is something that requires thought. What worked this year? What didn’t? What needs to change? A big part of our mission here at Restored is to help you heal and grow, so you can be whole again and thrive. As cliché as it may sound, New Year’s resolutions can help you to do this. 

New Year’s resolutions get a bad rep because of how often people drop them only a few weeks after setting them. The truth is that change is hard. Even those of us who go into a new habit with the best of intentions and the utmost determination often still give up when an obstacle presents itself. 

So what’s the solution? Before you throw in the towel and dismiss New Year’s resolutions entirely, try approaching them a little differently this year and see what happens. Here are some tips to help you along the way.

1. Examine the four major areas of your life: physical, spiritual, emotional and mental/psychological. Rate on a scale of 1-10 how you are doing in each of these areas. Are you praying every day? Are you exercising regularly? Are you keeping your mind engaged?

   One helpful exercise is to imagine your ideal day/schedule—does it include room for growth in each of these areas? Where are you falling short? 

2. Get specific. One of the first precepts of S.M.A.R.T goals is to be specific. This is because when people set resolutions, they are often unhelpfully vague. They might say something such as: “to get in shape,” or “to eat better.” These types of statements are not conducive to habit change. Motivation is fickle and often short-lived, but habit change requires time and being very intentional, otherwise it is too easy to fall back into our M.O. The more specific you can be with your goals, the better.

   For example, if you want to get in shape, pick a time and place to work out every week. Decide what kind of workout it will be. What do you want the outcome to be? Do you want to be able to run five miles in a specific amount of time? Or lift a certain amount of weight? When do you want to have reached this goal? Why do you want to attain this goal or make this change? Write the answer to these questions down, so you can remind yourself when you aren’t feeling motivated anymore.

3. Make it fun and easy. Eliminate as many obstacles as you can. Continuing with the exercise example, you can take out your workout clothes and lay them out beforehand, or keep a gym bag in your car, place your running shoes right by your bed, have a water bottle filled and ready to go, etc. This concept applies to whatever goal you have, think about what might stop you from your new habit, and do whatever you can to overcome that beforehand. Time tends to be a big challenge in taking on a new activity or implementing change, so schedule your new habit when you’re planning your day/week.

   Make the activity as accessible and enjoyable as possible. One tactic is called ‘temptation bundling.’ Essentially, you pick one thing you enjoy already and attach it to your new habit. For example, if you want to journal more, journal while you drink a glass of wine. If you want to learn a new skill, attach it to a soundtrack you enjoy or podcast you like. If you’re trying to get organized, watch a funny show while you do so. If you want to run more, do so with a friend or group of friends.

4. Reward and reevaluate. Make up your own milestones. Did you work out three times this week? Enjoy a sweet or splurge on dinner out as your reward. The more you associate your habit with positive things, the more likely you are to keep doing it. It’s important to not just plan the change, but how you are going to encourage it with positive reinforcement. If you find yourself failing, ask yourself why.

   Did you really not want that habit change all that much to begin with? Is the schedule you made too intensive and not restful enough? Are you burned out? Do you need someone to hold you accountable? Habit change is often trial and error. As much as we’d like to get it done as quickly as possible, we have to embrace the process and allow room for failure—as long as we get back up after.

5. Be patient. In our age of instant gratification, patience can be hard to come by. We want things, and we want them now. Unfortunately, that’s not usually how habit change works. If you think about it, our bad habits didn’t happen overnight. Maybe it was easier to fall into them, but it took time for one bad decision to become a ritual. The same thing goes for the positive change we want to make in our lives. Often we fail at our resolutions because we get frustrated with how long it takes to form the habit, or see change. So we quit. But change is a long game, so take a deep breath and keep going. As someone once sang, “it just takes some time.”

So there you have it, five simple tips to set and keep your New Year’s resolutions. We hope the beginning of your year is full of hope and joy. 

“We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.”

–Aristotle

#060: Divorced Parents is All I’ve Ever Known | Sydney & Daniel Binette

Since she was 2 or 3, Sydney’s parents have been divorced. It’s all she’s ever known. As a result, she spent most of her childhood living out of a suitcase between Mom and Dad’s house.

While Sydney has navigated her parents’ divorce fairly well, there have certainly been challenges. In this interview, we discuss those challenges and more:

• How Sydney has kept a good relationship with her parents and stepparents

• As someone from an intact home, her husband Dan talks about how the divorce has affected her and their relationship

• Real and raw talk about love and marriage, especially feeling at times like it is “too hard”

Email Joey@RestoredMinistry.com to schedule a meeting

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Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Sydney Binette

  • sydneybinette@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Sydney was only two or three when her parents divorced. So it's really all she's ever known. And for so much of her life as a child, she lived out of a suitcase going back and forth between mom and dad, which can be so difficult. But I've always been impressed with Sydney for a lot of reasons, but one of them being, she seems like she's learned to navigate her parents' divorce pretty well.

However, as you're gonna hear in the interview, there's certainly been some challenges. So in this interview, we talk about how Sydney has a good relationship with her parents and her stepparents, her husband, Dan joins the interview to talk about how Sydney's parents divorce has affected their relationship and how he's observed it affecting.

Personally, it's really neat to get his perspective, cuz he comes from an intact family while Sydney and I come from broken families. We also touch on how challenging it is to split time between family during the holidays. And we talk about legal separation and divorce in cases of abuse as well. And overall, just a very real conversation about love about marriage, especially when you feel like marriage.

It's just too hard.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 60. If you're interested in helping us grow in helping us reach 1 million young people from broken families, helping them to heal and grow.

I'd love to speak with you personally. I'd love to meet with you on a video call or on a phone call personally, just email me@joeyrestoredministry.com. Again, that's Joey J O E Y. Restored ministry ministry, singular. Dot com I'd be honor to share the vision that my team and I have for the future. Our financial goes to make that vision a reality and the incredible results that we've seen so far, even though we feel like we've barely scratched the surface.

And if you don't have time to meet with me, but you would like to make a year end donation to restore, you can do that. A restored ministry. Dot com slash donate again, ReSTOR ministry.com/donate. If you donate by the end of the year, your gift will be matched up to $15,000. That generous donor has pledged $15,000 to ReSTOR really believes in what we're doing and your special gift.

A one time gift let's say will be doubled. So if you donate a hundred dollars, that will become $200. If you start a monthly gift in December, that will be tripled. So $100 a month goes to $300 a month, for example. So email me to schedule a time@joeyrestorministrydotcomorifyouwannadonatenowgotorestorministry.com slash donate.

So my main guest today is Sidney bonnet, and I wanna introduce her, but I do wanna say that Dan, her husband is kind of in and out of the interview at different parts. So I'll give him in a little bit of an intro too, but Sydney is the wife of Dan and mother to three young children, four year old Rosemary.

Two year old Benjamin and newborn max million Sydney was born in Baltimore, Maryland, where she was raised by her four parents from a young age. She moved to Denver, Colorado after graduating from FCAN university of Steubenville with her bachelor's degree in chemistry and has worked with students and youth of all ages as a lab manager for a graduate level, academic research lab, a high school and middle school cross country coach, as well as a nature outreach coordinator.

For elementary age students, Sydney is a devout Catholic and helped to establish the young adult group at her home parish in Denver, in her free time. She enjoys long distance running, hiking, camping, snoring, snowboarding, and traveling with her husband and children. Now, like I said, Sydney's the main guest, but I also wanna give Dan a little shout out.

Daniel bonnet is an ICU nurse and an air force reserve airman. Dan loves a good time volleyball and traveling the world. Dan, there's a lot more I could say about you, Dan and I have been friends a while Sydney and I have been friends a while as well. But, uh, without further ado, here's my conversation with Dan and Sidney,

Dan and Sidney. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, Dan, uh, right now, just to paint a picture in everyone's minds, he's holding his son, Dan and Sydney's son. Max max is a little fussy, but he's doing okay right now. So you might hear him. He might chime in into the interview, but it's really, it's good to have you guys here.

We wanted to do actually a four way interview with my wife, Bridget, but it was just too much with all the kids. So this is awesome that both of you are here. Sid. You've always kind of intrigued me. You seem, you know, I've known your story for a while. We've been friends for a while, but it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems like you've adjusted pretty well to everything in your family. Like you seem to be doing really well in life. And I'm sure there's struggles and things, but I've always wanted to talk to you more about this because of that. And so I'm excited to, to dive in, but let's start with the basics. So how old were you when your parents got divorced?

Yeah, I was about three years old, two and a half three. I actually don't truthfully know too much of my parents' story and their divorce just cuz I was so young and I never. I never asked too many questions. They never told me much, but I was really young. And then I was also really young when my parents remarried.

They both remarried when I was about six, but they had both met their, uh, respective spouses when, you know, shortly after they divorced. Okay. So to me, you know, my parents divorced was all I ever knew the, the situation as it was with, you know, my remarried parents with my stepmom and my step was just all I ever knew and all I ever grew up with.

Totally. Okay. So there's kind of a, a blank space there. You don't really know, like you said, what went down, but did, do you have any sort of insight into that? Like over the years, have you. Learned much. I have, you know, that was probably one of the hardest parts of my childhood was I didn't know. And then there were slight comments that would be made through my childhood.

And, you know, I think it was, it was hard. It was definitely not an easy situation for them. My parents were both really young when they got married. Mm-hmm they had me and my sister really young. I, I wanna say they were in their early twenties, 20 years old, maybe 21, I think. Okay. But in their divorce, in their separation, it was, I think just a, a pretty bad relationship between the two of them.

It just, you know, kind of was something where they got married young and they just weren't ready yet. But yeah, there was definitely comments that were made through my childhood, from my grandparents and from my mom about my dad or vice versa. So I picked up on a few small things, but I just, I never asked cuz I never wanted to know.

I didn't want that to be my business or my awareness of who my parents were. Sure. It would probably change the way you thought of them or looked at them. That that makes sense. Yeah. And yeah, it's so interesting to talk to people who were really young when it happened or much older when it happened such different experiences.

And I think that's something worth mentioning that not everyone's affected the same way. It really varies. You have some people who are affected, you know, in some ways and other people who are affected in other ways, some people who are deeply affected and really struggle with all that trauma and then other people who are more well adjusted and there's different factors that go into that.

And parents that parents actually play a big role in mitigating a lot of those negative effects. So, um, I'm curious to kind of hear all of that. So growing up that was just normal for you. It's what you knew. How, um, how did you react to the dynamic in your family where. You know, you had your biological mom step biological dad, stepmom.

How was that for you growing up? Both as in your childhood and then into your teens and twenties? Yeah, thankfully I was just really blessed by the situation with my parents. I have an incredible stepmom, an incredible step. They're both an integral part of my life. My stepdad is one of my greatest role models.

He's an incredible man. And, and so I'm really thankful for the way that things unfolded over the years. Mm-hmm um, it's definitely, I, I don't wanna say that by any means to say that it was easy because there's definitely deep seated, you know, emotions, obviously with all of it. And, and I think one of the hardest things, to be honest is that.

I feel so blessed. And so it makes it feel like I shouldn't have the emotions that I have around my parents' divorce, because they really did a good job. Yeah. I mean, they set it up. Well, they never even went through a court system. They just had joint custody and it was just, they had a good enough relationship between my mom and dad that they, they didn't wanna involve a third party.

They just said, you know, we will fairly split your time. So for me, that meant as a kid that I was, I lived out of a suitcase, my entire childhood. I went back and forth. If my dad was off on a Wednesday, I was at my dad's house. If my mom was off on a Thursday, I went to my, so, I mean, I was the kid going to school with literally a suitcase in my hands.

And it was just where I was going after school every day. So I just, I never felt like I had a, a one set place mm-hmm but that being said, I had four amazing parents. And so it just, yeah, it's kind of that dual of, I, I have these emotions. It's still really hard to live this life, but. I love everyone involved, you know, I love my four parents, so yeah.

Yeah. So that was, you know, the good and the bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it can sometimes be hard for us to distinguish between those two, like hold the good and the bad in our hands at the same time, because you can, on one hand, admit like this has been really good in terms of, I have these people in my life, these parents who have, you know, sacrificed for me, they've given me so much, they've helped me in a lot of ways, but at the same time, acknowledging, yeah.

I've been harmed too. And it's okay to say both of those. And I think a lot of times we have this, we're like defensive of our parents against ourselves. So I know it's, it's hard for us to even admit that, you know yeah. They, that wasn't right. Yeah. It it's almost like we have this knee jerk reaction to just say, well, they did the best they can.

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Which, which is okay to say, but just because someone did the best they can doesn't mean that's the way it should have been. And we're not saying that to. Be mean to parents. Do you hate your parents? No, not at all. Okay. I was asked that question because, uh, there's a big misconception, especially with this ministry that maybe we're trying to, so seeds of hate and try to divide the parents from the kids.

And that's not at all. We wanna help heal those relationships. And a lot of times it does require. Uh, digging into these wounds, having difficult conversations and so on. So I'm glad we're talking. So over the years, I'm just curious, were there any, um, as much as you're comfortable sharing, were there any ways that you kind of dealt with the challenges that came up maybe in unhealthy ways?

Like I know for me, um, one of my parents separated when I was 11 years old, it just completely shattered my world. So a different experience and I just did all sorts of things to numb the pain. I acted out. I was very angry, very bitter gun to pornography after a buddy of mine showed it. And that just kind of was a distraction and escape from all the pain and problems in my life.

So I'm just curious for you as much as you're comfortable sharing. Was there anything like. Yeah, truthfully, I don't have very exciting one answer because you know, my mom has said this over the recent years as an adult, now that I'm an internalize and I never thought that of myself until she has recently said that a lot.

And I'm like, yeah, I guess I really am. So, I mean, that's, it, I'm a, I'm a thinker, I'm an internalized, but I really, I didn't, I didn't find any way to cope because I didn't feel like I needed it. Yeah. And I, and so. Emotionally, it came out in different ways, you know, and we'll, I'm sure get into that, how it's come out in my marriage emotionally and, and in that way, but truthfully, I didn't, I, I didn't ever feel like I was harmed in any way to the point where I needed to do something about it.

And maybe it would've helped me, honestly, maybe it would've helped the emotions I feel about it today, but I just kind of went all my life thinking like, okay, this is how it is. And if I feel emotional about it, then I'll just cry to myself. And that's kind of just how I have to cope. Yeah. Cause this is how my life is and it's what I gotta do.

Yeah. Yeah. And you you've always been that type of person as long as I've known you. It's just kind of like, all right, this is, this is life. We just gotta do it. Like , there's no use like crying over it or, you know, or maybe letting other people know, even if you're crying in your room or out of the site, but no, that makes a lot of sense.

And kind of going back to what I said before, parents play a huge role, um, if parents do their best to, um, and, and by best, I mean like an adequate job of loving their children and helping them deal with that, it can really, really help. Like there's studies that show that if a child who comes from a broken family has a, a good relationship with one or both parents, they're statistically much less likely to struggle with loneliness, depression, anxiety.

And so it's really helpful. And sounds like you benefited from some of that, which is, which is awesome. Dan, I wanted to ask you a question because you know, you have known Sydney since you guys were. What you guys were in high school or was it even before high school? Yeah, I think we met when we were 15.

I think it was like 2009 spring of 2009. We met. Okay. So you guys were young and, uh, Let's go into that story just a little bit, and then we can kind of backtrack to effect. Sure. Just, uh, the short and sweet of it is. So we met at a restaurant. It was my first job I was working as a bus boy and Sydney had already had like 10 jobs by then, cuz she's hardworking and comes from a very hardworking family.

So German. Yeah, exactly. She's very German and they're hardworking. And I think that goes back to kind of how she internalized a lot of this where it's like, yeah, this is how it is. This is how we deal with it. We don't complain. You get what you get, you know, pitch a fit. And that's pretty much kind of how city roles.

So going back to how we met. So we met when we were younger and I mean too young to date in my parents' mind, but yeah, it's kinda like the old fashioned story, like, oh, you don't know what love is. It's too young. And like, yeah, we probably were super young, but we learned to love each other. And so we started dating in 2010.

Okay. And then. Got married in 2016. Cool. So yeah, started dating in high school, went to college and then got married a year outta college, a year and a half for Sydney. Yeah. And that's kind of the short and sweet story. Cool. I remember, uh, we were studying abroad in Austria. You guys remember this story?

This was really before I knew you guys at all. I knew you separately, I guess. Uh, I think Dan, I knew you a little bit better cuz we lived in a similar spot and in our dorm and uh, you guys were like in my room with my roommates, we were all hanging out and I saw like the way you were interacting. And I told one of my roommates later, I think.

I think Dan likes Sydney or Sydney likes Dan, one of the two . I was like, so insightful. Joey's way behind the ball. No, let alone. You've been getting foot we've dating for years. Yeah. I always love that story that cracks me up. And it's also, you know, a good point to make, because I feel like just in my personality too, when we, so I, I transferred to Franciscan university.

I studied for a year at the university of South Carolina first. Okay. Um, and I was a year ahead of Daniel, so he, you know, I, I transferred the year that he started his freshman year. Okay. Yeah. And it's funny because I remember when I was transferring and I said, okay, well, here's how it's gonna be. If we're gonna go to the same school, I'm gonna have my friends.

You're gonna have your friends. We're not gonna be like at each other's hip all the time. I want us to live our own lives. And so, yeah, it, it's kind of funny cuz that's just my personality a little bit, but you know, it's a little bit of a good segue because I think that a lot of that is probably rooted in mind, not wanting to be dependent on anyone because it was always frightening.

What was frightening about it? just that it didn't seem guaranteed. Like you can fall in love with somebody, but it might come and go, you know, you never know. So at that point we had been dating for two or three years, but, you know, and, and at that point, Daniel had already kind of communicated to me in high school that like, I'm gonna marry you one day.

And, you know, it was kind of a, it seemed like a joking thing when he said that as a little high schooler , but I, uh, I, I just, you know, it didn't really hold weight to me necessarily, cuz I was like, okay, well when we go to college, things could be different. We might be different people. So let's not hold onto this.

Like it's steadfast. Yeah. And maybe that is, you know, I never really thought about it until our marriage, but maybe it is rooted in the way I grew. Yeah. And I, I think that's, um, a lot of, for a lot of us deal with that, we just have that fear of repeating what happened in our parents' marriage. That kind of realizing that well, at any point, my spouse could leave me and that's a fear I still have to this day.

It's something that I've like worked through a lot and it's very minimal now, but it's still in the back of my head, which is hard, but yeah, a lot of us feel that and we'd rather, you know, not it too attached to involved. Yeah. When I had met Sidney, I mean, she pretty much told me she's like, I'm not gonna get married.

Tell me the least 27 until I've lived and done a lot of things that I want to do because that's kind of, yeah, exactly. I, a little bit afraid. I don't wanna say afraid of commitment, but definitely hesitant. I was definitely the one pulling the like, Hey, we should, I really wanna stay toge you know, definitely pulling whenever there were hard times.

Definitely grew up in a little bit of a different situation in my family. I was like very anchored in terms of like, you make a decision and you stay with somebody and there is that, is it? Yeah. Like, so in the same way that Sydney kind of lives her life. Matter of fact, in so many other ways, one of the only ways I live my life matter of fact, was like, if you commit to somebody, if you date somebody, then you think about marrying them.

And if you marry them, you bet you, you are not going to get separated from them. Yeah. So it was kind of a, and Cindy and I have talked about this, but just kind of a divorce or separation really wasn't in the vocabulary when I was growing up. Now, a lot of times I still saw my, you know, and my, my parents fought a lot and just like any other couple, but mm-hmm , it was always at the end of every fight.

I can almost remember my parents. Coming up to me seeing that I was upset if they fought or were in a they're like, listen, you know, that we love each other and you know, that we would never leave each other. Mm-hmm . And so that was kind of like very, I remember that like a specific that was very young. I can remember my parents saying that, so, wow.

I think you talk about the seeds. And so like, that was definitely just in the back of my mind, like, yeah, there is no second chance. There's no, Separation, like we're going all the way pretty much, no matter what happens. Wow. So, no, that's beautiful. So that's a very, very different background and your parents are still married to this day and you know, like you said, not a perfect marriage, but a beautiful example of, of what you yeah.

What you grew up with. Yeah. And I was just gonna chime in there, you know, from my side of things, you know, I, I hate to admit it, but I'll, I'll be the first to admit that like, even in our arguments, as a married couple, I'm kind of, I hate that my mind, the first place it goes is this is just too hard. Like mm-hmm we should just get out of this.

Yeah. You know, and Daniel, Daniel knows that well of me, but, but that that's just to me where he said divorce is not in his vocabulary. Like to me, it's, it's very much a Mo vocabulary, not even just in my parents and in my childhood, but there is one relationship in my whole extended family that has stayed together.

Wow. And it's my mom's mom, but every other grandparent, everyone is divorced. Aunts, uncles, uncles, aunts. Yeah. Everyone. And even, you know, The vocabulary. My parents use is very much like when I've seen other relationships in my family that have struggled, my parents are the first to say like, oh, they're really struggling.

I don't know if they're gonna make it. And so that's just, what I've always grown up with was, was that vocabulary was very prominent. Yeah. It's like, there's this off ramp that you can take. And it's like always available. And that's, I think one of the problems in our culture right now is that we, we see the divorce as a solution to problems in marriage.

And often like one of the first solutions, it shocks people to say that, but it that's absolutely true. Like so many people, a knee jerk reaction is like, You should probably get divorced. It's not gonna work out like, oh, you know, you got in an argument, you should probably get divorced. It's not gonna work out.

Your reaction is actually really normal. I, I, you probably know that, but it's really normal for people like us. Cuz sometimes we have these feelings or reactions to things and we think we're like freaks, but that's not actually the case. It's like given what we've been through, it's an appropriate response.

And uh, that's freeing, I've found that freeing and a lot of the people I've talked through through this nonprofit, through this ministry have found that freeing as well. So, but yeah, that whole idea of divorce being contagious, being something that, um, it's like a model that's set for you and it's like you said, always an option.

So I could see how you would be more sensitive to that and afraid of that. That makes so much sense. I want to go back to Dan, how did you see. The family dynamic with Sydney through the high school years and the college, and even, you know, in your twenties, how did you see all of that affect her, her parents' divorce and everything?

Yeah. So, I mean, first off when I met Sydney, in terms of, she wasn't kidding with like packing out of her, you know, living out of a suitcase or living out of a bag and yeah, this is probably terrible to say, but right now it comes in great handy, cuz she is so hyper efficient with packing and you better believe that when we took this trip here, when we're going anywhere, she's like everyone's packed already.

Got it done. And I'm like, thank you. Meanwhile, I'm literally struggling to pack my own single bag an hour before we're leaving. And she is the difference between an Italian and a German. Oh yeah. And exactly that as well. Yeah. Organization versus free spirit. And anyway, So, yeah, just kind of growing up and seeing like, with Sydney's case again, like her parents were always got along so well and they were always, so it was different because she, she, yeah.

And like everything she said, her parents got along and since they got divorced so young, but when I met her, no, yeah, she was mostly just back and forth. Definitely. Afraid of commitment. That was probably the biggest thing in terms of like, but we were young, you know, I could understand that. Sure. But definitely I think, I remember we got into an argument like early on when we first started dating and it was like very kind of scary how she was like, that's it.

And I was like, wait, this is just kind one argument. She's like, I don't wanna get hurt. I've seen what this ha I've seen what happens here. I don't want this to happen to me as well. It's happened to everyone in my family. I'm gonna get out before we get too deep into this. And that was definitely something that kind of hurt me, cuz I was like, wow, she's very, kind of got a wall up.

And like I get it. She doesn't wanna be hurt. And the only way that I can kind of combat that is just showing UN unwavering commitment and unwavering. Just kind of like, Nope, we're gonna stay together. It's okay. We'll get through this. Totally. Um, obviously that gets harder and harder. The longer you date, the longer you stay together.

And then once you get married, that's like that we've we will, tomorrow is our five year anniversary. So we will have been married for five years tomorrow. Wow. I remember the wedding. It was a, it was a fun wedding. Yeah. Best party ever. so, um, shout out to everyone at the wedding. Yeah. Anybody, but it was awesome.

So just kind of that day, it was honestly, it was a beautiful and incredible day, but I remember being like, definitely like, this is it. This is the biggest test. Like if Sydney and I go through this, that is going, this is gonna be the ultimate commitment and unwavering tests. So for me, what I saw to answer your question though, overall was just like that very hesitant, like, Nope, not gonna get married till I'm 27.

It's happened to everyone else in my family. And I'm like, well, my grandparents stayed together. I, I had a very like opposite, like, yeah, I've got some aunts and uncles that got divorced, but nearly everyone stayed together. So I was like, if you see me through this, we'll make it through like, just trust me.

Yeah. And she was kind of like on the other side of like, I really am hesitant to trust you. Mm-hmm so it was a trust thing, a commitment thing, but. Once Sydney makes her mind up with so many other things. When she sticks her mind to something, she gets it done. Mm-hmm . So I knew that that would overtake some of those commitment and anxieties with all that.

Totally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. There's this one researcher who says that, um, when it comes to relationships in marriage, everyone has some level of fear. Everyone faces challenges, but people who come from intact families where they've seen, you know, at least a good example of what marriage should be like.

Uh, they have that example to fall back on and it gives them confidence. It gives them courage to push on people like us who come from broken families. We feel those similar, maybe more intense fears, emotions, challenges, but we don't have anything to fall back on. We've seen a really broken model, which leaves us feeling more anxious and afraid.

Typically, you know, everyone's experience is perhaps different, but. That's why I can totally see what you guys are saying. Like you came from one background, so you came from another background. Yeah. It sounds super interesting and challenging to kind of mesh those together. I wanna keep going down this path unless you had anything you wanted to say to that.

Yeah. So I wanna keep going down this path of relationships and transition into talking about your marriage as much as you're comfortable. You know what I need to tell us everything unless you want to I'm, I'm an open book, you know, me, Joey. I'm pretty much an open book. Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah. What have been some of the challenges that you would likely attribute to, you know, coming from a broken family or, or not?

What, what are some of the challenges that you guys have faced? Yeah, I think the biggest one is, you know, as we were just discussing. Every marriage has arguments. Many of them, I'm not saying don't get married, but there's always gonna be arguments in marriage. So we definitely fight a good bit. And it always to me comes to, you know, like, like I had previously said, just this is too hard.

Like maybe this wasn't wasn't right. So I think my thought process is, is definitely the most challenging thing that we face in our marriage. The next, just cuz it's on the forefront for me would be, you know, as it's early December, right now we're approaching Christmas mm-hmm and holidays are really, really hard for me.

Mm. Um, they always were growing up. It was always, you know, a back and forth kind of thing. Like we were here for these hours here for these hours. And it was just so divvied up. Mm-hmm . And so now you add not only, you know, most marriages would have two families mixed in now we have three cuz we have my mom's side, my dad's side and his parents' side.

Yeah. So trying to navigate that has been not only challenging, but to me it's like, this is even worse than it was when I was a kid. You know, I, it was enough for me to split it between two. I thought I was gonna get married and have my own family and now splitting it between three is, is really hard. And it honestly makes a lot of arguments between Daniel and I during the holidays.

Yeah. It brings tension, brings drama. It can totally relate. But yeah. Dan, if you had any thoughts on that love day. Yeah. I mean, you talk about in terms of. Trying to get family together and trying to be giving everyone equal time, um, you know, marrying into a family that has two families already, you know?

Yeah. My side of the family kind of sees it as, okay, you've got it's 50, 50 it's our family gets 50% and then Sydney's two families. They get 25 and 25. Mm. And it is tough because I'm almost immediately like, that's not, it's, it's a third, a third, a third. It's gotta be. And they're like, well, we're not the ones who got separated.

Why are we getting punished for that? I was like, mom and dad, I chose to marry Sydney because I love her more than anything in the world. And I chose to go into a family that has two families. So at that point we need to separate it into a third, a third, a third, and try to make it as equal as possible.

But at the end of the day, I mean, even Sydney and I have been married for five years and it's like, at the end of the day, we are still the bonnets and there will come a time when it's just gonna be. In turn it's, it's tough with holidays. Yes. Just like we are the only ones and we're gonna spend time with our family.

Yeah. Wow. I never, yeah. I never heard that ratio like of the 25, 20 or 25, 25 50 versus the a third each. Um, but that makes someone sense. And we've, we've experienced that too. When we typically go home to Chicago, it's, we're visiting typically staying with my mom. And so my dad, we don't see him as much, but now that we have a baby, now that we have Lucy, our time is even more valuable to them.

Like they wanna spend time with their grandchild, which totally makes sense. And I'm sure you guys see that too. Yeah. So, you know, whereas in the past, maybe it wasn't as big of a deal if we didn't spend equal time with mom and dad, um, now it's becoming a bigger deal and even the first trip we took there, people were unhappy.

yeah. So it's hard. It's really hard to, to navigate that. Has there on kind of the positive side, has there been anything that you've learned that has made navigating those holidays easier, better? I wish I could say yes. No, that's okay. Yeah. We're still, we're still figuring it out five years married. Yeah.

This will be our, I guess, fifth Christmas together. Okay. As a married couple. And um, and yeah, no, it's still really hard. Recently got into a conversation actually with my mom. We we're kind of jumping around a lot right now. We're in the midst of a, a big move for Daniel joining the air force and trying to navigate that.

But that being said, we've been living with my mom for the past two months. And then, um, recently just moved back up to my dad's house. Okay. Yep. And got into a conversation with my mom where she expressed how offended she was with the way that we've split up our time. Mm-hmm and it. Really shocking to me to have her say that I, you know, she was really justified in saying that because of the way we have divvied up, it's been a challenge, like we just said, but yeah, I was pretty taken aback to hear that mostly because, you know, my thought was, I didn't, I didn't wish this.

Like, I don't want to have to be the one to choose where I'm divvying up my time. So in answer to your question, no, we haven't figured out an easy way to navigate that at all. We're still working on it and that's definitely a really big challenge in our marriage right now. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes sense.

And thanks to your honesty, cuz I think that's where a lot of people are at and what I've observed in my life and the lives of the people that I talk to is that. Some years are better, other years are worse. And so, yeah, I wish I could say some years are better. I've hated it every year. So far.

increasingly worse. It's been increasingly worse. Yeah. And you know, not to say there's no hope cuz we're, we're gonna work on it. We're gonna figure it out. And like Daniel said, we're gonna establish ourselves as our own little family. Now with three kids, you know, eventually it'll come to a point where we are just our own entity.

And so that's really what I think we have to hold steadfast to is, is who we are as a young couple and as a, you know, growing couple together. Yeah. I think balancing any holiday or. Birthday or celebration graduation when Sydney walked down the aisle, her mom and her dad. Um, so our biological mom and dad were on either in, in both of her hands on her.

Right. And her left hand. Okay. Yeah. And her stepparents were actually just behind them. And I think it was a good symbolization of how well they get along and how well, like Sydney said, they were able to cooperate with each other and super nice. And they've hung out multiple times at graduations and things like that.

There's still some hesitancy when it comes to, you know, nobody wants to spend a lot of time with the person that they divorced. Obviously I can understand that, but I think just going back to the holidays and birthdays, and it's been. It it's been a learn. I mean, I don't wanna say tough cuz I could never understand what Sydney's gone through, but a lot of it is a learning experience for me the day that I married Sydney and her mom and dad walked down the aisle and there were two extra people mm-hmm who I thought it was a very symbolic kind of passage into, we are all family now.

Exactly. Like I was talking about with the percentages and we were all family now. And so yeah, when it's Rosemary's fourth birthday, she's gonna get three birthday parties. She's gonna get my mom and dad. She's gonna, and there was a point, I think Sidney was gonna say something like, I need to watch what I say in certain.

Scenarios. Hmm. Yeah. So we just celebrated Rosemary's fourth birthday last week. So that just happened. And that conversation just happened where Daniel said something to my dad about, oh gosh, she's already had so many birthday parties and gotten so many presents. We've done this with every parent so far.

And I didn't, I didn't say with every parent who are, but I, I definitely was like, geez, another birthday party. And like, it was totally insensitive because yeah, but it's kind of funny cuz you. Like I said, and like I talked about my childhood growing up, I'm an internalized and I just like, I, I just handled things and I just did what I was told.

And it was like, okay, we just opened Christmas presents all morning long, but now we're at another house opening Christmas presents again. And for a kid, that's a dream. Yeah. You know, two Christmases, but you know, it's funny now seeing Daniel kind of go through that process of growing into that reality now as an adult, whereas I experienced it as a kid.

And so to me, I have filters where I'm like, you just don't say certain things. Mm. And maybe you do, maybe you should say certain things, but I just I'm like, Nope, this that's not appropriate in, in this context. But yeah, it is funny cuz I, I just grew up with two of everything, always two birthday parties, two Christmases, two, um, you know, whatever it was, it was.

You just did you did double. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And that there's totally some positive aspects to that, but, um, I know what I typically hear is people will throw that around is like, see the divorce isn't that bad. Like everyone's happier. Yeah. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I think it's just worth mentioning for everyone listening, just so they don't misunderstand us.

But, um, yeah, for a kid that is, uh, I remember when my parents first separated like that Christmas, um, I think my dad was trying to like overcompensate and he just like bought us. Like at that time it was like PS two and just like all these games. And it was that aspect of, it was like, okay, this is kind of fun.

This is cool. But then deeper down. And I was like, this sucks. Like, this is really not the way I wish it was. But like you said, it's just the hand that we're dealt and we have to deal with it. So I want to go to, yeah, you brought up the kids, so let's just go there for a second. Have you thought about. Kind of Rosie's perspective on, and I mean, all your kids, but on her grandparents.

And have you had any conversations? I know she's so young now at four, but have you had any conversations like that or have you thought ahead to what you might say? Yeah. So to the first part of that, We actually recently, Rosemary, you know, we're, since we're bouncing around living with various family for now, she recently, you know, she's starting to learn like who is whose mom, you know, to her.

I am her mom. So to think of me having a mom is very like what . Yeah. Um, but so she's starting to ask those questions and it's, it's really sweet. You know, recently she asked that about my stepmom. She said, wait, but if only is your mom, then who are you? And so. She's definitely starting to understand that a little better and yeah.

And ask those questions and yeah, we do have to start thinking about how we're gonna answer those questions for her. Thankfully. So far, it's been just an over abundance of love because she has so many grandparents and family members that all love her. And, and so she's, you know, really sweet about just enjoying all of that time with everyone and, and who everyone means to, you know, what they mean to her.

Mm-hmm but in terms of answering those questions, it it's gonna be tough because, you know, especially for me, when, when Dan and I do get in those fights and we have those, those conversations, you know, for me, of course, my first thought is my kids. , you know, I guess my prayer for everyone who's experienced divorce is that that'll be the same for them because you think of your kids and you think of what it's done to you emotionally.

Mm-hmm , you know what it's done to me and what I don't wanna do to my kids ever. Yeah. So I think that's, they are a huge factor in what is gonna like keep our marriage moving forward, always because I don't wish this upon anyone. Yeah. Well, I think Joey probably has mentioned this in his other podcast as well, but just in terms of the fine line of staying together, if you're in a relationship that's struggling really badly and you have kids and just, yeah.

Staying together for the kids. Right. Is that like a blink 180 2 song or something? something , it's like about like, I think there's a, a line, you know, when of unhealthiness, like arguments and difficulties and then like, you obviously don't want to stay in an abusive relationship together if you have kids just to keep them, because that would do even more damage.

Yeah. To see mom and dad being abusive to each other. Mm-hmm , that's way worse than them being separated. Right. But in terms of just are, you know, there's there's and obviously, although I got a degree in psychology, I'm no psychologist, but when I learn and think about childhood development and just what a divorce does to, to the child's mind and to a kid, uh, growing up, like there is that fine line where I'm myself.

Sometimes even now, if things get bad enough, are we gonna stay together just for the kids? And where is that line for? I know I'm going off on a different track. No, no, this is very relevant. Keep going. Right. It's like, are we staying together for the kids? If Rosie and we're fighting in the car and Rosie's like, stop, stop, stop.

And I'm like, oh, it just kills me. Like we're raising our voices at each other. And my three year old in the back is like, mom and dad, stop. I hate it when you fight. And I was like, oh man, like, yeah. So, you know, there is that, that fine line, but it's also okay. If your kids see you fight. Yeah. You know, that's a normal thing.

I saw my parents fight and lots of people do, but it's that line of like, where things get harmful when kids can really get scarred. Mm-hmm . If they see you guys fighting in a. Super abusive way or anything like that. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's a great point. And this is a hard thing to talk about.

This is a very nuanced conversation when, with the topic that you just brought up, like, yeah, you should fight for your marriage, but where's the line where you need to like protect yourself for your kids. So what we talk about and what the, you know, for any Catholics listening, what the catechism says in can law that's church law.

If you're not familiar, basically it, that divorce is traumatic. It's brings disorder into the world. It's a very bad thing, especially for the kids, but there might be situations where it's a necessity because of abuse or threat of death or violence, something like that. And so in that situ. it should be looked at as a means as a legal maneuver to offer protection.

And it should never be used as like, well, I just wanna quit. It should be used only as like, I need to protect myself and my kids. And so that's and the church law, Ken law says that you separation might actually be a step in the direction of healing, the marriage. It's not ideal that you would go through that, especially for the sake of your kids, because that could be the separation itself can be traumatic, but sometimes it's necessary.

And so the hope and the goal is always to heal the marriage and bring the family back together. Now, is that always realistic? No, but then we get into the much bigger topic of, is marriage, just a contract? Is it a piece of paper or is there something more deep on a human level, on even a spiritual level where you make this vow and you're bonded to this person for life?

I. And if that's the case, which I believe it is, then marriage is more than just a civil contract. And so even if that civil contract were to be broken as a legal maneuver to offer protection, there's still the vows that you promised to your spouse, which it's a tough thing to talk about. It really is, but that, that's the way that we look at it.

So to anyone listening right now who maybe, you know, someone, or perhaps you are in an abusive situation, what we would always say is like, get to safety, get to safety, and that if that involves leaving your spouse, you do that. But thankfully just to offer a little more insight, cuz this often comes up, especially with this ministry, just offer a little more insight into that.

One of the leading researchers on the effects of divorce on the children, uh, has said that roughly 30% of divorces are actually, and this was years ago, 30% of divorces are actually those high conflict situations. So it might have gone up a little bit, but 70% are low conflict. Meaning there wasn't abuse.

There wasn't like a ton of, you know, overt fighting, just lots of violence or. Drama at home, 70% is situations where, you know, the couple has problems, but they could work through them if they chose and not to say, it's not hard, it's absolutely hard. But about 70% of, of those divorces, uh, could, could be worked through.

And that number might have gone up quite a bit because we've normalized divorce, uh, so much in our culture that, uh, it's a much easier thing to do now. And for the people who are in abusive situations, that's a helpful thing for people who need. Encouragement to stick with their wedding vows, to stick with their marriage, to work through the issues, to do whatever's necessary to get through that.

That's a bad thing. So it's very nuanced. There's like a lot to talk about here. So yeah. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. A couple comments on that, you know, first for us, when you talk about our vows and our wedding day, something that I frequently think back to, and Daniel's heard me say this a lot, but I really hold tight to what our, the priest who married us said in his homily during our wedding.

And he actually. You know, for those of you who aren't familiar with the Catholic church, usually priests can't get married, but there is a certain case where there are some priests, very few priests, but there are some priests who have been married. And so our priest was actually one of them. And so hearing it from his perspective is really interesting cuz he, you know, he stands for, you know, as a father of the Catholic church, but also as a father to his biological children.

Yeah. And, and he said in his homily to us, you know, today you are getting married because you love each other. But from now on love each other because you are married mm-hmm . And so I hold to that a lot. You know, when you talk about those, those cases of marriage where it's just low conflict or, you know, they've fallen outta love or the fights have TA overtaken their love, you know, I think that's one thing that's really important to hold tight.

Two mm-hmm mm-hmm is, you know what you stood. The day you made those vows and, and I definitely can't speak too much to the cases of high conflict sure. Situations, because it's just not something that I've ever experienced or am familiar with. Thanks to God for that. Yeah. And I'm sure that that's very challenging to maneuver, um, and to, to face for many but one thing to add to that is I, I think one way that I have kind of grown to cope with, you know, as we go back to the definition of, you know, bringing up the, the word divorce in your marriage.

One thing that I have really tried to separate out is the difference of separation and divorce. Yeah. You know, as a faithful Catholic, I, I really don't wish to stand for divorce. Mm-hmm um, except for in certain situations like we talked about, but, you know, I. The old saying separation makes the heart grow fonder, whether it's true or not, maybe not always, but you know, and Daniel and I have thankfully never faced this, but I try and just separate those two words out where maybe sometimes there's situations, if it is high conflict, where separation is essential, it's necessary to recover the situation.

And then the, the prayer moving forward was be that you still get back together, your divorce, your marriage hasn't, hasn't been broken, you know, you're still married, but maybe that, that time is necessary to be a part. So mm-hmm yeah, that's just kind of, I think a way of coping for me is I don't want to bring divorce into our marriage ever, but if it ever did come up, separation might be important first.

Sure. And I think that's something that our society really overlooks a lot. Yeah. And kind of skip that step no, a hundred percent. And the, the intention behind a divorce is very telling to some people, you know, like in the case of abuse, like we're talking about, they're doing it as a mean to protection.

Right. And, and there's kind of, there's two legal ways. You could go, at least in the United States, it might be different around the world, but there's, um, a divorce or there's a legal separation. And I, I couldn't tell you no lawyer. Couldn't tell you all the legal differences there, but one is more, the divorce is more final.

The legal separation is more of like an intermediate step. Yeah. It's, uh, it can be a step in the right direction to hopefully heal the marriage. Like I know of one couple right now, the husband's an alcoholic and he's just gotten down really bad path. And the wife is like, just genuinely wants to him to heal, get his act together, them to be a family.

Again, they have kids. It's really sad situation. Um, but he hasn't done that. And so she had to go the route of a legal separation. She didn't want to do the divorce because she believes in the, in marriage and it being lifelong. Um, but she can't be in that situation. So sometimes you have to make those hard decisions.

Yeah. Contrasting that with someone who, you know, might say, well, I've just fallen out of love. And I just want to get out of this and start over again. Those are ver two very different things. And that's the first case it's like, yes, that's understandable. The second case. It's, that's where we would push back and say, no, like fight for your marriage.

There's there's so much good that can come out of it, even if you have to fight for years to, to bring that good into your marriage. So yeah. Does that make sense with the two differences? Yeah, definitely. And you know, not to compare and contrast two marriages, but when I look at my parents versus my own marriage, thankfully, you know, I guess my response to some would be just that marriage is always gonna be hard.

I think, you know, I haven't talked with too many people about their encounters with marriage and their, you know, what they, what they deal with. But to me, I guess that's my perspective is that it's always gonna be hard. And for Daniel and I, we, there was nothing. In our dating life that would've indicated that our marriage wouldn't be great.

Yeah. Um, you know, we had a really great relationship dating. We were best friends. We still are in many ways beautiful, but it's, it's taken a, you know, it's different than it was when we were dating. Sure. Um, there's a lot more pressure. There's a lot more discussions to be had. And so it takes your best friend relationship to a, a different kind of level.

But yeah, for us, like we had a great intro into our wedding day. Um, so that being said. You know, having had that, versus when I look at my parents' relationship and how they didn't really have that, they were young, you know, for them, to my knowledge, they got married because they both wanted to be outta their parents' house.

They both wanted to be independent on their own. And the only way to really do that at their age was let's just get married, independent on each other. Sure. They didn't know each other too long. They were kind of a, an unexpected couple in college, very, or in high school, they were very different. And so looking at them and seeing how, how the, their marriage, you know, went about and ended mm-hmm is just kind of a Testament to me that it's always gonna be hard.

So, you know, even if you're best friends first, even if you have everything is rock solid going in, it's gonna be hard. And, and so, yeah, I think that's just something that I try to keep in perspective is okay. You know, even if I say that I wanna just start a new with somebody else, it's gonna be hard again.

Yep. Especially because. You know, Dan and I have the history that we have together that is such a rock for us. And, you know, you look at what your life could be like, and, you know, you have to ask yourself, is it really better? You know, is, is what that does to your children is what that does to yourself and your, your emotions.

Um, having a, especially having already grown up with divorce mm-hmm and then having to experience the emotions of that in a much more even personal level on your own. So again, of course, this is only for those cases where it's, it seems like an easy out versus it being a, a much more. High conflict situation.

Yeah. A necessity to protect people. Yeah. Max, you could hear max in the back. Hey, Hey buddy. No. So that makes so much sense. And, uh, there's this quote, I, I can't remember the whole thing, but it basically goes like, choose your heart. Marriage is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard. And it goes through like this whole litany of different things that are hard and you just have to choose which, which hard do you want to go with.

And so, uh, it, I, I think it's a good reminder. And one of the essential ingredients of having a really healthy marriage is, uh, good expectations. And if you go into it thinking it's gonna be a fairytale, you're gonna be very shocked to notice that it's not and you're gonna have conflict. And if you think you're never gonna fight, um, you're gonna be shocked and that's gonna lead you to doubt, like, man, maybe I married the wrong person, or, you know, maybe I shouldn't have even gone down this marriage path at all with anyone.

So, no, I think it's a great reminder. And the fact that, uh, when you get divorced and get remarried, your divorce rate is much higher because I think people are fooled by that thinking like, no, it'll be so much different. And not to say there's some people who have a second marriage, that's like very happy.

They're faithful and things go well. Um, so there are those cases, but statistically, the majority of people, it just repeats itself, which is I think very telling of what could happen. Mm-hmm so going to kind of, some of the struggles we've, uh, had, cuz I don't want you to be the only one sharing. Uh, it's certainly been, even in our dating relationship, it's been a.

Difficult because I was always really afraid of love and marriage and vulnerability. Like even when we were in Austria and you know, I was starting a relationship there, I was just terrified of that. I didn't really know how to go about it all, to be honest with you. And, uh, there's so much fear, so much fear, so much anxiety I wrestled with so much before I would even get to the point of like asking her to be in a relationship with me.

And no one could tell that unless I told them it was, you know, I kept a good exterior kind of like you and just dealt with it. But, um, man, it was so hard and then fast forwarding to met my now wife bridged in our dating relationship. It was always difficult for me to just be vulnerable and trust. I like you and pretty fiercely independent.

And a lot of that I think is just a protection mechanism. Just like, well, what if you leave me? I need to, you know, make sure to keep my autonomy. To an unhealthy level. And, um, and it certainly is a balance, you know, there are other people on the other end of the spectrum who have an over reliance on each other to where it becomes this enmeshed unhealthy relationship.

But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, you have people who are so fiercely independent, it's almost like they do nothing for each other. So we've tried to hit that balance, but it's been hard. And so, uh, another fear of mine, like I mentioned before is just that maybe one day bridge would just leave me cuz to me as a kid, that's kind of what happened with my parents.

It was just like, I, my parents didn't have a perfect marriage. They certainly fought, there were problems there. And we kind of knew that I was kids, but they were together and that was good. And then out of the blue, it seemed to me, I later have learned more of the details. Um, they just. Broke apart. And I was like, what?

Like, how could that happen? And as an 11 year old boy, uh, that just like imprinted this idea in me that at any point, anything could fall apart. And that's a difficult thing to bring into a marriage because what I've learned too is we almost had this subconscious expectation that our spouse will leave us or that the marriage will end.

And we act off of that expectation, which then contributes to it actually becoming a reality mm-hmm so you have this like cycle that we have to fight through. So it definitely complicated, but, uh, for us it's been, it's been challenging. And I think at times that can just be emotionally distant in my marriage, whether it's all, you know, related to what happened to my family or not, that can be talked about and debated certainly a lot of it is.

And, uh, I've had to be very conscious and work through that and we go to counseling and do all that good stuff. So, yeah. Um, you guys aren't alone and, uh, we certainly have our arguments and sometimes they're handled very well resolved. Well, other times they're not other times it ticks days or, you know, longer to really, uh, resolve a situation.

But one of the things we've always tried to do, especially now that we have our daughter, Lucy, Is to resolve it. And she's like you said before, the kids are so much more motivating. It's like, I remember I was interviewing Jason Everett and we were talking about people who, you know, just feel tempted to cheat on their spouse.

Cause that's a real thing. And um, one of the things he said is like, yeah, once you have kids, you know, you might feel like, gosh, like, you know, really angry at your spouse. Like I could cheat on you right now, but I can never cheat on my kid. And so I think it's really beautiful and it kind of shows what family life is meant to look like.

Not that everyone could have kids, but I think there is that it's more permanence once you have the kids in the family in an extra level of motivation. Yeah. That's really sweet story. And I was gonna go back, you know, to what Daniel said about Rosemary, has she makes comments about, you know, please don't fight or she'll say sweet things.

Like, you know, you just have to say, sorry, and dad, you have to forgive her. And you know, she kind of coaches us also on the things that we coach her on. So it's practice what you preach. You know, I think the question that that poses is like you just shared with your childhood, you know, you don't wanna set a facade for your children.

I recently read about blessed Jerome LA June is someone that I really love. I hope that he becomes a Saint one day. We just named our, our third son after him and was a French doctor. He was a French doctor. He, uh, discovered the, the cause of down syndrome, which is why we named our son after him. Cuz our second son has down syndrome.

That's right. But anyways, he, he was an awesome guy. He has a, a book about him that I was reading and his daughter wrote it. And she says that she never saw her parents fight, you know, mm-hmm which maybe they had a really blessed marriage where they just, they didn't very often, but maybe that's naive to say maybe they did.

And they just didn't expose their kids to that. So I think the question it poses, you know, like I was saying is you don't wanna lead your kids on to think that arguments don't happen. Mm-hmm I think more importantly, you wanna teach them that they do and that they can be overcome. Mm. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, I think a big thing for us, and I'm not very good at those.

You can say that too, but is, is showing your kids both sides because my love language is by no means physical touch , you know, the German in me, I guess, is very, just put up a wall and stand straight um, just kidding. Germans are great. I love them. she's right. but, but to me, you know, when you fight, you know, Daniel is the first to always end it in.

Let's just hug. and, and I think that's important for your kids to see too is affection. And is you showing them that it's okay to fight, but you have to overcome and you have to forgive each other. And, you know, I think it kind of circles me not to go on a totally different topic, but it circles me to one of the big things that I've always said to Daniel to try and teach him or show him, you know, how it really feels to be a child of, of divorced parents.

But it really hit me, I think the first time being exposed to his parents when I walked in the door one day and I just saw them, you know, his dad walked home from work and gave his mom a hug and a kiss. Hmm. And I think that's the first time it really hit me was when I saw that. And I was like, I have never seen that in my life.

Mm-hmm , I've never seen my parents walk in the door and hug and kiss each other. Mm. And so that's really hard, you know, I've seen that with my stepparents, which again, beautiful relationships, beautiful people, but just that it kind of just hit me like a jab when I was like, I have, I would. I would love to just see my parents walk in the door and hug and kiss each other.

And so for, for those who have kids and, you know, for those who maybe aren't married, you know, if you're in high school or whatever, you aspire to be a, a mom or dad and have kids and, you know, be a spouse is just keep the affection, you know, show your kids that it's okay to have arguments, but you have to love each other still.

Mm, wow. That's beautiful. And I love that desire that you had for that. I think that's what we all ultimately want. And I think part of the reason this whole thing is so painful is that it's a desire that's often Mo most often not gonna be fulfilled. Like I remember my siblings and I saying something like that, and there was some drama going on at home.

And, uh, one of us said, like, we just want our family to be together to be whole, I forget which siblings said that, but it just like destroyed me, like, and I, wasn't a really emotional guy and. High school beginning of college, but that, that was like a stung. It was like, yeah, that would be really great. So I definitely know that experience, so many good things.

Kind of switching gears maybe a little bit. What did you maybe need from your parents that they weren't aware of all those years? Uh, or maybe just didn't provide? Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. I think maybe just more awareness of the situation, you know, as we've touched on, they were really good at, you know, and this is, like you said, the defensive side where you wanna defend your parents.

Mm-hmm they were really good at handling it. They were really good at showing us that we had two sets of parents who were very involved in our life, who loved us very much. And, you know, basically creating it as if it were a. Unbroken relationship. But I think with that, you know, what that did with me was made me feel like I couldn't feel emotions about it, or I couldn't feel like it was, you know, a situation to be sad about because they just, not that they masked it, but it just wasn't talked about.

Sure. It was just, you know, like I said, this is the way it is. You get what you get mm-hmm and, you know, especially, you know, as I touched on the conversation I recently had with my mom and my sister, and I have only occasionally talked about how we feel mm-hmm , but it was just, you know, maybe just having them say, I know this is hard on you.

Like that was just never verbalized. Yeah. It was more put on me of. , I don't wanna pressure you, you know, I don't want you, I don't wanna pressure you to come for home for Christmas or, you know, whatever the conversation was, but it was just put on me to make the decision, whereas, you know, I wanna throw it right back and say, this isn't on me.

Yeah. And so I think just that would've been really, really impactful. Mm-hmm to have my parents be the ones to say, you know, it's really touching to sit here with you, Joey. And have you say like, you know, you're not at fault or it's okay. That you feel this way. Many people feel this way. That's, that's really touching to hear.

But I think hearing that from your parents is even more impactful to just hear them say this isn't your fault. And I know this is hard cause I was never said a hundred percent. Yeah, I would, man, that would be really nice. I think like you said, you nailed it when you said a lot of parents are just unaware, like your parents using them as an example.

But, uh, but that seems to be pretty normal. There seems to be three types of parents just in this work. This is like, what we've learned. One type of parent is just a parent. Who's totally. They just like really don't have an idea or at least not a good idea of like what you're going through, what I'm going through.

The second type of parent is someone that they're aware. They have some insight into it. Maybe they went through their parents' divorce. Um, but they just don't know what to do about it. So they kind of, maybe they act like they aren't aware or they just feel pretty lost. So they just don't do anything.

And the third type of parent, which I have met, they're rare. They're the ones who have the awareness and then take like steps to help their kids deal with it and apologize and own up to the mistakes that they've made. And it's really beautiful. There's this one, couple Barb and Joe I've had the honor of meeting with and talking to, and, um, they just really beautiful.

They're like going to their kids and talking about how they're so sorry for what happened. They both were divorced. Got married. And then, um, 20 years later, they're starting to wake up to this reality. So a lot there, uh, just in closing out. if your parents were here right now, I know some of what you just said would apply.

What would you say to them? it's a tough, probably the toughest question I've asked so far. Yeah, definitely. Cuz you know, I wanna say, I'd say nothing. I'd say don't listen, don't, you know, don't hear my emotions, but you know, I think I would, I would say thank you for loving us and handling it the way you did and giving us, you know, showing us still what it means to love somebody mm-hmm because you know, they did that really well in their second marriage, both of them.

So I'd, I'd say thank you for that, but I'd also say, please hear me, you know, please know that this is hurt. Wow. Just closing out. I wanna give you last word first. Thanks for coming on. Um, for any of you listening, you might be wondering where's Dan , he's kind of been popping in and out taking care of the kids.

Yeah. Just curious to anyone who comes from the background that we come from. Dan, I'd love to hear your thoughts too. What, what advice would you give to someone like that, especially who wants to be married one day, um, who maybe, you know, Dan, from your perspective, advice to someone like you, who's marrying someone from a broken family, what would you say to them?

And then said, I wanna throw it to you as well to say, what advice would you give to, um, someone who does come from a broken family? Who's marrying someone from an intact family. Yeah. Just that stay strong, you know, no matter what I liked what you said at the beginning, Joey, when you talked about like, these feelings are normal, like not a lot of people, I feel like get told that like, it's okay to have these feelings about, you know, either blaming yourself and I know your book, it's not your fault.

like, that's a huge part of like, just being able to not blame yourself. And when you do have those feelings towards your parents, like, and then having that guilt as well, all of this is a normal process in a very similar way. Um, when we learn about the stages of grieving, like all normal things. Just because they're like, it's terrible.

They're awful things that have to, you have to go through, but those are normal feelings to have. And then just telling people who, uh, wanna get married or who are in a relationship like that, just like, yeah, exactly. Stay strong. And like, except for those things that we talked about, um, in terms of like staying together for the kids for certain other reasons, like if 70% of marriages get 70% of those divorces are because of like, I don't wanna say smaller issues, but what was the term you used?

Uh, low conflict. Yeah. Low conflict. Like, I feel that that is so true. So yeah, if you put your heart and soul into your spouse and into your marriage, you can make it work. Beautiful. Sid. Would you add anything for, you know, especially a couple like you guys, one comes from an intact family. One comes from a divorced family, any advice for navigating marriage and life together?

You know, as we've talked about, we're both Catholic. I actually wasn't Catholic growing up. I wasn't Catholic until I met Daniel for that matter. Um, and I know some listeners may or may not be, but whatever your beliefs are. I think that something that really hits home for me is when Daniel used to tell me that he would pray every night with his mom for his future spouse.

Hmm. And I was like, whoa, you know, having grown up, not even somebody who was praying at all, um, just the thought of like, there was this woman who sat with her son, however old, he was two years old in the bedroom praying for me and she didn't even know me. So I think my, you know, my biggest thing is whatever age you are, whatever stage you are in your life, pray for your future spouse, pray for your, the kids, your kids, future spouses.

Yeah. You know, I, I pray that that is what has brought us together. That that's what will keep us together. Mm-hmm um, the power of prayer is, is really important.

Love that conversation. If you wanna reach out to Sydney, you can find our contact information in the show notes. Again, if you'd like to meet with me personally, to talk about ReSTOR vision, I'd love to do that. Just email me@joeyrestorministry.com. Again, that's Joey ReSTOR ministry.com will schedule a time to get together.

If you'd like to make a donation to ReSTOR, just go to restored ministry.com/donate. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 60. Thank you so much for listening, and this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or separation broken marriage, go ahead and share this podcast with them.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

Holidays 101: How to Handle Probing Questions

2 minute read

You’re standing in a crowded living room, sipping on some eggnog and minding your own business, when suddenly, somehow, that one person you were hoping to avoid corners you. Before you know it, you’re reluctantly engaged in conversation and the thing you were dreading happens: he or she asks a probing question that you very much don’t want to answer (and really shouldn’t have to). Suddenly the conversation becomes highly uncomfortable and you find yourself in a very awkward situation. Help, please.

This is not an uncommon scenario. Especially during the holidays when we’re often confronted with those difficult relatives who are just a little too inquisitive—whether they mean to be nosy or not. Before you down an entire jug of eggnog to numb the discomfort of awkward conversations, try these tips to handle probing questions:

1. Avoid

   While normally I wouldn’t advocate running away from your problems, this is one of the few instances where avoiding is okay. If you know a certain friend, family member, or acquaintance is going to cross boundaries, try to stay out of earshot. Move to the other side of the room, strike up a conversation with someone else, excuse yourself to go to the bathroom, or even consider not going to an event where you know they are going to be—depending on how stressful or painful the situation could be to you.

2. Brief Answer

   If you’re unable to avoid the conversation, keep it short and sweet. When they ask a question you don’t want to answer, say something vague and succinct. Then you can ask them a question that will hopefully steer the conversation in a different, less uncomfortable, direction.

3. Call them Out

   Without being rude, you can kindly and gently say: “I don’t feel comfortable talking about this right now,” or “Is it okay if we talk about something else?” Although saying this is a little more confrontational, it will likely be more effective at preventing future incidents of unwanted inquisitiveness from this person.

4. Deflect

   Humor is your friend. Try to turn the question into an instance for laughter instead of something serious. This is especially handy when you don’t feel comfortable calling the person out. After a joke or two, you then have the opportunity to change the subject or even say you need to get food/a drink.

5. Stay Busy

   Play with at the kids’ table (everyone knows they have more fun anyway), wash dishes, offer the host some help . . . find something that will prevent the person you are trying to avoid from striking up a conversation with you. 

6. Plan Ahead

   If you are familiar with this person, you can potentially ask them in advance not to ask questions about a specific topic you don’t want to discuss with them. Again, this can be done in a way that is gentle as opposed to accusatory: “I’m really not ready to talk about x,” or “I’m trying not to think about x during the holidays .” If you are unable to have this type of preventative conversation, anticipate what they might ask and how you want to respond. Consider even practicing what you want to say a couple of times. This will ensure that when the time comes, you don’t feel flustered and caught off guard.

   
   The holidays should be a fun, joyful season. Unfortunately, as children of divorce this can often be a difficult time instead. But there are things we can do to help manage some of the stressful parts. We hope these tips help you handle probing questions with grace, and to have a more enjoyable, stress-free Christmas

#059: From a Broken Family? 9 Tactics to Navigate the Holidays

Are you from a broken family? If so, you know how challenging the holidays can be. Not only is it difficult to balance time between mom and dad, but we also have to deal with any family drama. Instead of enjoying the holidays, many of us just can’t wait till they’re over.

But there is good news: it doesn’t always have to be that way. In this episode, you’ll hear 9 tactics that you can use to navigate the holidays and hopefully, enjoy them again. It won’t make them perfect, but it will make them better.

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, I don't have to tell you how challenging the holidays can be. Not only do we have to balance the logistics of spending time with mom and dad, but we also have to deal with any family drama intention, and it can truly make the holidays painful instead of enjoying them.

So many of us just can't wait until they're over. And I get it. I've experienced this myself many times, but there is good. It doesn't always have to be that way. In this episode, you'll get nine tactics that you can use to navigate the holidays and hopefully enjoy them again. Now, I can't promise you that if you do these things, that your holidays will be perfect, but they will be better.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 59. I wanna jump right into the content. The content you're about to hear is from my new book.

It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And at the end of the episode, I'll tell you how you can get the book if you want it. And I even have a free offer for you by the. There's mention of God in this episode, if you don't believe in God, you can just ignore that part.

I promise that you'll still benefit from this episode, even if you take that part away. So my challenge for you is to listen with an open mind

question 15. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life event? During the holidays coming from a broken family is even more difficult. It's a stark reminder that your parents aren't together and your family is broken. It's common to feel alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all logistically it is challenging to balance time between each parent and twice as many festivities, especially if they don't live in the same area, it's easy to feel pressure to choose sides and pick between parents while you try to make everyone happy.

It becomes overwhelming to balance everyone's desires and expectations. If the divorce was relatively recent, the drama intention might be especially high, which makes it all the more challenging instead of enjoying the holidays. You dread them. But my hope is that the advice below will be handled the season and even experience some holiday joy.

Again. First, remember that it's not your responsibility to make everyone happy. It's not your job to fix your parents. It's not your job to clean up the mess inside your family. Although you love your parents, you have to remember that your parents got themselves in this situation. Now they need to deal with the consequences.

You can't change them. You can't change your family. Sure. You can positively influence them. But within limits, don't feel ashamed about spending time with one parent during the holidays. You're not portraying the other parent. You deserve a relationship with both parents around this time of year, especially your parents and other people might expect you to put on a good face and be happy.

That's not right. You should never have to pretend to be happy in the midst of a difficult situation. Remember that you can't make everyone happy, nor should you try when you try to make everyone happy, you'll end up making no one happy and yourself miserable. Second set and enforce healthy boundaries.

Boundaries. Define what you like and dislike what you're willing and unwilling to do the rules that inform people how to treat you in a way they're like the out of bounds markers on the sports field. When it comes to the holidays. It's okay to lay down those rules with your parents. Boundaries, give people the option to self-select out from a relationship with you.

If they are not follow. So think through what you will allow and not allow. For example, you can tell dad that you won't talk to him about mom, or you can set rules about how much time you'll spend with each parent. This holiday season boundaries are especially important to protect you from manipulative people who want to control you for their own benefit by using fear, guilt, or sense of obligation.

If you're faced with someone like that. Back out of the situation or confront them and be clear that you won't allow this to happen. It takes courage, but in the long run, it is worth the discomfort. As part of your preparation, be prepared for the predictable circumstances that will arise a conflict with a specific relative dad or mom bringing their new partner to the party or whatever else.

Prepare for what you'll say and how you'll handle those situations. One option is to avoid the situation altogether. Another is to prepare polite yet from talking points. So you're not taken by surprise. It doesn't have to be complicated. It just takes some forethought. Lastly, boundaries need to be enforced.

If you tell someone this is the boundary and they break it, there need to be consequences without them. They'll ignore your boundaries next time. Be ready to enforce any boundaries. You. Third communicate ahead of time. Make a plan for the holidays and tell your parents avoid spending time with both parents on the same day on Thanksgiving.

Perhaps you spend it with your dad on Christmas. Perhaps you spend it with your mom, but the day following each holiday, you can have us. Second celebration with the other parent. This prevents you from becoming emotionally exhausted, which you have a duty to avoid. Similarly, you have every right to express your feelings to your parents.

Be honest and tell them your needs. You can say, I love you, but it can be really hard around the holidays to please you both and not offend you. I need you to understand my decisions, my boundaries, and understand that the tension in our family makes it difficult to enjoy the holiday. Set expectations well in advance.

So nothing comes as a surprise. Tell both parents when you'll see them and for how long, if you live at home, this can be extra difficult. You might not be able to leave a party, but even in that case, communicate what you are and are not comfortable with. Do what's within your power to enforce those boundaries.

Even if they won't respect them. In some cases, you may even need to take a break from visiting certain family members during the holiday. And may benefit from being around other families to remind you that there can be stability that you long for. And so deserve fourth, take owner. While you didn't cause the situation, you can choose how to handle it.

Well, even amidst the drama intention, you can choose your response, do what you can with what you're given, avoid being the victim who blames and never takes responsibility for what's in their control. One way to take ownership is to plan distractions from the drama, such as watching a movie, spending time with friends, playing games or another wholesome activity that relieves some of the tension and.

Avoid isolating yourself for extended periods of time. As much as you can taking a walk to get a breather is okay. Locking yourself in your room for hours at a time is not fifth. Be virtuous in each situation. Do your best to respond well. Be diplomatic, be the better person. Apologize when you make mistakes.

Keep in mind that your parents are learning to navigate the holidays too. So give them some grace, do your best to be kind loving and polite, but don't be a door. If someone mistreats, you stand up for yourself, play your role in keeping the peace. But remember that you can only play a part you're not solely responsible for keeping the peace.

Most of all, do your best. Not to allow other people to determine your peace and happiness, make the decision to keep your calm, whatever the circumstances in difficult moments, or remember to take a breath. Pause to think and detach from the intensity of the emotions before you act by doing that, you'll make better decisions about what to do and say next sixth, make a plan to take care of yourself.

The holidays are emotionally exhausting. If you don't take care of yourself, you might end up doing something you'll regret and in an attempt. To fill your needs. Think ahead. About the difficult emotions you might feel, have one or two ways to calm yourself if you're anxious or to experience some joy. If you feel down and depressed, see question 14 about coping in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, having a plan goes a long way. When you feel out of sorts because of the tension, drama, or sadness around the holidays, in the middle of parties or gatherings, don't hesitate to step away for a breather. If you need to leave, then do. Whatever you do allow yourself to feel your feelings work through them, pay attention to them and learn from them, ignoring them or stuffing them away only makes things worse.

The only way to heal and grow is by moving through those negative and messy emotions. Ask someone to be there for you during the holidays. So you can talk about it all. Don't do this alone. Seventh focus on the celebration, focus on the meaning of the holidays. For example, on Thanksgiving, reflect on what you are grateful for.

Even in the worst situations, you can always find something you are grateful for. It's so easy to lose the meaning of the holiday in the midst of the drama intention, but refocus when needed. Appreciate the little things, especially the food, your siblings, or your pets, keep in mind that you might need to lower your expectations for the holidays.

Unfortunately, you might not feel the same joy, safety and security with your parents anymore. In the midst of that, try to focus on the celebration and the meaning of the holiday eighth, ask God for help. Again, don't do it alone. God sees your pain. He wants to be there for you. Let him during that family party, when you feel.

Tell Jesus about it, know that he doesn't want it to be this way. Either trust that he is not finished with you or your family while the divorce or separation is devastating, God can bring good even out of evil. Perhaps you'll never see that in your family, but you can see it in your own life trust that he isn't finished with you lean on him when things are difficult during the holidays.

Ninth learned from it. All, whatever happens in life, there are always lessons to learn. See it as an opportunity to become a better, stronger person. Think about the lessons you can use in the future, especially to build your own family holiday traditions in your family might die because of the divorce.

That's hard to swallow. But remember that you can start your own traditions, especially if you have your own family or soon will a new tradition might look like spending time with another family or friend. If your family is toxic, be intentional about who you choose to spend time with. Ideally choose a family that models what it means to be a true and good family, the kind you want for your future and making your own traditions think back on what you loved or what you missed out on, make a list of things you wanna do for your own kids.

If you simply drift through the holidays without a plan or preparation, then it's likely the drama tension and dysfunction will overwhelm you. Given that it's completely understandable to dread the holidays, but there is a better way. Use the tips above to reduce the drama and enjoy the holidays. Again, have hoped that you're not doomed to experience holiday distress forever.

You can experience the peace and joy you desire during the holiday season. For more tips on navigating the holidays. Listen to episode 32 of the resort podcast at ReSTOR. Dot com slash 32. If you'd like a private place to talk about the challenges that you face during the holidays, join our private and free online community.

It's built for people like us. It'll help you feel less lonely. Get advice from people who've been through your experiences and challenge you to grow into a better. Stronger person join in three easy steps at restore ministry.com/community.

One question that you can think on is what can you do today? To prepare for the holidays. Think back through the tactics that you heard in the episode, and then make a simple plan to put them into action. As I mentioned, the content you just heard is from my new book, which is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken families, The most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationships, struggles, and so much more.

And I experience these problems firsthand. I know what it's like. It shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges. By teens and young and adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. After reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. To buy the book or get the first chapters free. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 59. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' separation, divorced, broken marriage, share this podcast with them, especially if they're struggling at this time of the year with all the holidays, go ahead and share this podcast with them.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel hold again and become the person that you were born to be.

Radio Show with Reach of 237 Million People Interviews Restored's Founder, Joey Pontarelli

Our founder and CEO, Joey Pontarelli, joined The Drew Mariani Show to discuss his new book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce.

You can listen to the recording by clicking play below or choosing your favorite podcast app. If you choose the podcast app method, fast forward to minute mark 28:00.

The Drew Mariani Show is the most listened-to program on Relevant Radio. Heard on 184 stations nationwide in afternoon drive, this Gabriel Award-winning, current event-driven show reaches a potential audience over terrestrial radio of 237 million, including the largest markets in the country: New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Philadelphia, as well as numerous affiliates throughout the country.

We also have 700,000+ downloaded smartphone apps around the world and more than 2 million online accesses for The Drew Mariani Show in 2020 alone.

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Two Years (When Healing Takes a Little Longer)

3 minute read.

I guess I assumed that time would bring about the change I wanted.

“Time heals all things.”

Isn’t that a thing?

“It just takes time.”

Maybe it does–maybe it’s just a lot longer than I expected.

It is painfully frustrating to live the same unwelcome thing over and over again: the anxiety, anger, and distrust that I couldn’t shake two years ago.

Somehow I thought knowing I had these tendencies—awareness—would be enough to keep it all at bay. Especially considering the bitter consequences it all has led to before.

It’s not.

And two years has done little to improve this.

So how am I supposed to find healing? When will I get better? Will I get better?

God heals. He is the source of healing. Although I think He can—and often does—use other people to facilitate healing. But for some reason it doesn’t always happen right away—or even after two years.

I’m not sure where the line is between ‘He allows it for a reason’ and ‘we get in our own way/have free will’.

Maybe I could be doing more to expedite the process.

There is a strange comfort in holding on to your wounds. It’s an excuse to act out, to hide away, to not give up bad habits that are hard to break.

It’s a little safer. It’s easier. Because opening yourself up to healing requires a receptivity and trust which we often would rather avoid.

There’s also the misconception that you can’t be hurt more than you already have been. So if you hold on to your hurt, it becomes a sort of barrier against further damage.

Not the most logical thing in the world, but humans rarely are.

The whole thing is just so risky. And it amazes me how people fail to understand that.

“It’ll be fine.” “Things will work out.” “Either way you’ll be okay.”

What, what.

That has not been my experience. And to me, thinking that way is naive bordering insane.

“You just have to trust God.”

If it were that easy don’t you think I would have done it already?

It’s like standing on the precipice of a cliff, looking down into the waters far, far below and people are urging you to just jump. Meanwhile you are covered in bruises and your arm remains mangled from the last time you tried the shenanigan.

No thanks.

It’s a terrible feeling. Trapped in fear–unable to distinguish between reality and what could be/has been.

Everything becomes a sign of danger, red flags appear everywhere I look, and deafening alarms are blaring–meanwhile everyone else is oblivious, urging me along and I have no idea if they are crazy or I am.

And I had hoped that this was past me now. I guess it was naive to think that a couple of years would have erased something so deeply rooted.

It’s discouraging, because I really don’t know if I will ever change. I don’t know if I will ever be capable of what I want to be capable of.

“I didn’t ask for the painful memories of my past–I don’t know why it’s the damn darkest ones that last.”

This week I was reminded to trust God’s healing process.

I’m not sure what other choice I have. I just worry about the damage I do in the meantime. I guess He must have accounted for that already; my overwhelming weakness and inability to fight this battle on my own.

He must know.

So I’m waiting. Because I can’t fix this. I can pray, I can learn, I can put forth effort (which is largely pitiable), but I cannot be the source of my own healing.

So I’ll stand on the precipice for now. Whether or not I’ll jump remains to be seen. But I know that if I am left to my own devices I will most likely walk away. Because it’s too hard. And it’s too scary. And the reality of past hurts are too much.

Therefore the only thing I can commit to at the moment is trying my best not to run away from the precarious edge of which I am almost unbearably terrified—and wait.

“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.”

CS Lewis, The Four Loves

I guess two years really isn’t that long, when you think about it.

This article was written by Restored team member, Miranda Henkel. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.