#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford
Dr. Andrew Swafford came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never got divorced. As a result, he questioned: “Can I be a good husband and father? Or am I destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction?”
Thankfully, he overcame those doubts and built a beautiful marriage and family. In this conversation, he shares what helped him to do just that. Plus, we discuss:
What is virtue and how do you build it?
A three part framework to know if you’ve acquired a virtue
The ultimate measure of a virtuous person
Why virtue offers you happiness and freedom
Practical tips you can use today to build virtue
Buy Dr. Swafford’s book: Spiritual Survival in the Modern World: Insights from C. S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters
Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)
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Dr. Andrew Swafford
The Art of Living: The Cardinal Virtues and the Freedom to Love
Back to Virtue: Traditional Moral Wisdom for Modern Moral Confusion
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
My guest today came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never actually got divorced. And as a result, he seriously wrestled with questions. Like, can I actually be a good husband and a good father, or am I just destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction that I saw in my family now, thankfully he overcame those doubts and he built a really beautiful marriage and family.
And in this conversation he shares what helped him do just that. And I'll give you a hint. It has so much to do with healing. And building virtue. And so in this episode, we discuss what is virtue and how do you build it? He offers a three part framework to know if you've acquired a virtue. We also talk about the ultimate measure of a virtuous person.
We touch on why virtue offers you happiness and freedom. And then we share some more practical tips on how to build virtue today. This is such a valuable conversation. So keep listening.
Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 56. You've probably heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled.
It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown.
And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much. And I experienced these exact problems. I know this firsthand. It shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem.
It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken families, such as. After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?
How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How do I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things? Like my parents' divorce happen. The content in the book is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.
And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tax. Dicks to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.
And if you come from a broken home, this book is for you, but if that's not your background, maybe you don't come from a broken family. This book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home. And so this is a solid resource that you could. Give to them or use to learn how to help them.
And so you can buy the book right now on Amazon. Just click the link in the show notes, or go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can get the first chapters for free on our website. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.
Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. You can do that@restorministry.com slash books. My guest today is Dr. Andrew SWER. Dr. Swofford is the associate professor of theology at Benedictine college. He's the general editor and contributor to the great adventure Catholic Bible published by Ascension press.
And he's the host of the DVD series and author of the companion book, Hebrews the new and eternal covenant, as well as the author and host of Roman. The gospel of salvation, both published by Ascension. Dr. Andrew is the author of nature and grace, John Paul II to Aristotle and back and spiritual survival in the modern world.
He holds a doctorate in sacred theology from university of St. Mary of the lake and a master's degree in old Testament and symmetric languages from Trinity evangelical divinity school. That's a mouthful. He's a member of the society of biblical literature, academy of Catholic theology and a senior fellow at the St.
Paul center for biblical. Theology. He lives with his wife, Sarah and their five children, Atchison, Kansas. And you might remember Sarah from the podcast. She was on an episode 20, which we discussed in the conversation. We spoke about navigating singleness in that episode. I'm so thrilled to share this episode with her husband, Dr.
And Andrew Swafford, such an insightful and valuable convers.
Dr. Swofford it's such an honor to, to have you on the show, I've been looking forward to this for a long. Yeah, such a blessing, Joey. Uh, thanks for having me on, man. I want to, um, talk to you about virtue. Wanna talk about how do you build virtue, things like that. But before we dive into the virtue side of the conversation, I'd like to start with your story.
When Sarah, your wife came on in episode 20, she mentioned pretty vulnerably that there was a lot of brokenness at home growing up. There's some dysfunction. And so. I'm sure. There's a lot. We can talk about there. I wanna hone in specifically on the example of marriage that you saw, what was that example like for you growing up?
Yeah, so my, my parents were married, stayed married, or are still married, but it was one of those kind of, um, unhappy marriages. I mean, lots, and, and from the time I can, as long as I can remember, I mean, I, I just assumed they would eventually get divorced. They just, just never did so lots of volatility. Um, you know, I mean, My dad was not to my knowledge and not with, not with me, uh, ever physically abusive, but, but very, very verbally abusive in terms of, it just didn't take much to set him off, worked really long hours, lots of overtime.
And, and, you know, and, and again, lots of people certainly have had it far worse, worse than I, but you know, lots of tension, lots of you just never know when, when something was gonna kinda set the trigger off. And, uh, yeah, that was, you know, one of the deep fears that I had, you know, kind of coming of age and after having my conversion was.
Could I be a good dad? Could I be a good husband? Because I didn't see the example of it. Absolutely. And because of the example that you saw, I'm just curious, what sort of fears and struggles did you have aside from believing, or maybe not believing yeah. That it was possible for you to be a good husband and be a good father.
I mean, so you, I think you kind of assume, uh, maybe subconsciously at least I, I did for a while that you kind of, you know, you're sort of destined to repeat the patterns you grew up with. And, and I can look back at my, you know, my father's life and, and, you know, he didn't have a great upbringing and there's lots of dysfunction there.
And so it's easy to kind of be almost fatalistic about that. And, and what. I, when I came to realize, and in some ways it, it didn't happen fully until after I was married, after I started living, it was, and that's why I love to tell college guys all the time. Like brother, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to be.
I think we do repeat the trends that we grew up with. If there's nothing to buck the trend, but if there's something. Bucks the trend, a convers experience, a firm resolved to be the dad. You didn't have that can move mountain. So I just wanna say to everybody, listening to everybody, I, I said this all the time to guys that come across fear, not man.
Uh, you are not a prisoner to your past. I don't care what what's there. You're gonna, we're all gonna have wounds, but you're not a prisoner. You can be, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to. So good. That's so encouraging. Cuz I think a lot of people, I know the people that we work with through our ministry feel exactly that fear that you mentioned of repeating the mistakes that they saw in their parents' marriage.
And like you said, so often it does happen from generation to generation. There's just divorce. Like one of my friends, I was talking to this couple that we hang out with, uh, frequently and close friends of ours and they can only think of one couple. That has stayed married in their extended and her extended family of everyone that's been married.
Yeah. Just shocking and, and scary too. And I know they feel that fear, uh, in a very real way, but I think it's good for you to say that you're not destined to go down that road. And I think one of the things that, uh, I think of two aside from the firm resolve, which is absolutely necessary is building someone of a system, a, a community around you.
Yeah. To support you because. If you go at it alone. I mean, so often you're just gonna end up going back to what you saw. It's just what you know. Right. It's what you know. And, um, I think you're, you're, you're you're so right. And you can't do this alone. But even, I mean like, so something like half of marriage is in a divorce, but how many are joyless?
How many are like unhappy? And we all know that number is devastatingly high. The key that I think I've come to, not alone with the community, uh, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. After I had my conversion with him and. You can't just cover up even very, very good people, even devout people, they can fall into this.
So don't so on the one hand you can be as good of a debt or husband as you want to be. And then the don't be kind of naive to think it couldn't happen to you. Couldn't happen to me because once you get in sort of like dysfunctional patterns and ruts, it's like ruts in the grass, like the rain falls down and it goes right down that path.
And once those patterns get set up, they're really easy to fall into again and again. So I, I think, and part of where we're gonna get to with virtue is that kind. Human formation. Like not when the lights are on when no one's looking, where is the real game of our lives played? And, and man, I would say civilizations are one and lost right there in the school of a family, like right there when nobody's watched, not when you're given a talk, not when you're on the stage, not when all those things, when lights are on it's like what kind of man or woman are you behind the scenes?
And that's where your medal is really tested. And on the one hand you gotta have that resolved. But you gotta have that community to build you up, as you said, and, uh, you know, to speak from my full experience, man, it's not a natural thing by itself, man. I mean, grace builds upon nature, presupposes nature.
And if there's, if there's kinks in the natural human formation, it's gonna affect how grace can transform that. But in my experience, meeting Jesus and meeting him in a profound way in my Catholic faith, they changed. Everything. And it set me on a path. It wasn't overnight. It wa you know, you can't just take some Jesus frost and put it on some old, bad habits and old wounds and expect it to go away.
But over time, uh, it it's, he created the new man and me, and I'm still working progress, but nothing was ever the same after that point. Likewise. Along those lines. So obviously your relationship with Jesus, the people you had in your life, the community, the firm resolve that really helped to heal and start to reverse that cycle of dysfunction and divorce that ran in the family.
Was there anything else that really helped you to heal and to go at your own route? Yeah. I mean, so it's, I guess it's part of a whole, I mean, one. So I came to, I came to, I teach at Benton college now in, at Kansas. Uh, but I came here as a student. Initially I came here by football and, um, you know, grew up Catholic kind of a name only, but never met much to me.
Uh, didn't really go to mass and had this big conversion. Beginning at the end of my freshman year, but really came to a head in the fall semester, my sophomore year. And it's it. Wasn't just Anar call. I mean, it was, it was a, a brewing life changing conversion. I had to let go of some things and I, I met a new group of friends and, you know, the key thing frankly, was a, you know, as I was really be drawn in, drawn into the way of life drawn into the fellowship, the, the virtue, the, just the kind of purposefulness in life.
I mean, so many people. Life, like it's a story with no plot. And that's where this just sadness comes in. And, and all of a sudden, you know, football, wasn't, everything. It became a metaphor for life and not the other way around. And so, but I guess what I'm getting at is it was a relationship with a girlfriend back in Ohio university that eventually had to, that was the last thing holding me back, had to walk away from that for her second from mine, but this conversion process and the mentors that stepped into my.
You know, one of whom was, uh, Dr. SRE, uh, he and his wife, Beth were just instrumental in my life and in my wife's life. They're the godparents of oldest son. It wasn't just a one moment. Okay. Now you accept Jesus. Now he's your personal Lord and savior it. Conversion, as we know is ongoing, and this was a ever deepening journey.
Uh, that's not just, I'm gonna stop doing this, but what are the virtues I need to grow in? And what are the deep wounds from my past that I need to bring to Jesus and, and, and really dig deep, not in a way to kind of like re-litigate relive and beat myself up over. What's the dysfunction going way back and how can it be presented to Jesus on the cross and redeemed and transfigured, and, and here's the thing is like at the N jail.
So in one said, he said, you know, Thomas philosopher, historian philosophy said, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas writes as a free man. Santa Augustin writes as a freed man, Santa Augustin, who, you know, had a child out of wedlock and, you know, have this crazy story and then comes to me, Jesus. And both stories are beautiful and, and both are profound.
Not, one's not better than another, but it's. As I said, you can't just have this conversion and put some little Jesus frost and expect that now all of a sudden everything is gone. It's like, no, no, you gotta dig deep. And these things will resurface at different points in your life. And so I guess what helped me friendship.
Jesus, but really mentors that were really willing to go deep with me at both the spiritual and the psychological, the emotional level. Not in simply like a Naval gazing, but just a okay. What's there. And how can, um, how is this affecting you now and how can we free you from those chains? So good. And I love what you said.
I think if we just put bandages on our brokenness and ignore going to the root and just kind of stuff, things on under the rug, they're gonna come out later. And like you said, if you just put some of that pixie desk, Jesus pixie desk on stuff, you're not going to, it's not gonna change you at a heart level, which then when the struggles of.
Pain comes your way, problems come your way. And in different chapters, like you said, that's, what's gonna break down. It's it's not gonna last so, right. I, I, I love what you said there. And I think the human formation portion, like you said, building virtue is so essential. And so I wanna shift to that if that's okay.
I wanna start with the basic question, cuz a lot of people listening probably haven't studied this stuff as much as you have. What exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue? Ha. Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with Dr.
SRE and I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says, this church says this can't do that. And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more.
So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor. Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence.
That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man rule am I becoming? And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be?
Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down. I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down.
I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic. The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years.
And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to who you'll be in five years, because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person. And so what virtue does, it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability.
To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing. It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be.
We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right? So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat.
And there's that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete. So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like.
You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence. It's about the art of living and living well.
I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight. And I think that's a good reminder.
One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, ashy. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.
Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. AOLs got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.
It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.
It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous life's all about. So good. Are VIRs just good habits or is there more to it than that? Yeah. Well, so they, yeah, I mean, so we can, we can go in, in deeper ways. Um, So for someone like Aristotle, he looks at what we are. I mean, and, and he'd be happy to speak about like the, the virtue of a horse or the virtue of, you know, a watch in horse.
What, what makes a horse, a good horse? What makes a watch a good watch when it performs its function? Well, so he looks at human being, what is a human being? He says it's he's it's ARA. RA is a rational. So reason and, and not just reason that is the ability to kind of calculate as if we're just a computer in a machine.
But, but, but to ask, because think about this, we can ascribe reasons to animals. The animal did this for this reason, but the animal doesn't ask itself, whether these are good reasons for doing this action. There, there are, I mean, again, animal animals are amazing, but I'm interested in the monkeys, DNA, not the other way around.
So what does it mean then to live in accordance with the fullness of my nature as rational? What it means in part for aerosol to not be a slave, to my emotions, not to be a slave, to my passions. Uh, and so I courage, for example, it's not, not having fear. It's not letting fear control me and having the ability to rise above it when the moment is right to choose the good, even in spite of this difficulty.
And so it it's good habits that are perfective of our nature, right? So, uh, the classic Cardinal virtues. So you think about, okay, what what's right. Reason applied to decision making. It's called prudence. What's right. Reason applied to relations with others. It's called justice. What's right. Reason applied to my emotions of fear and things like that.
It's called courage. What's right. Reason applied to my desire for food, drink and sex in inappropriate ways. It's called temperance. So those virtues then don't fall out of a hat as just a bunch of values that some people like rather they are perfective of our human. As rational and as free. And then when the Christian tradition comes along and says, yeah, but there's also faith hope and charity.
What happened? I mean, think about what charity. I mean, those things, faith, hope and share. I think what hope does to courage? Think about how it enhances and dramatically strengthens courage. Yeah, there's the courage of a soldier, but there's always the, there's also the courage of a martyr who has the ability to persevere through an evil that he or she cannot remove.
And we're all gonna need both kinds of courage in life. Think. Not just prudence, but faith where you see the world as God sees it, it, it doesn't suppress the natural virtue. It enhances it. And think about what, what charity does. I mean, think about whether it's love and sexuality. Think about placing all those things in the context of love of God and radical love of neighbor.
Where you love them for the sake of themselves and even for the sake of God, uh, because it's so easy. Think about, you know, cha I know we're all sometimes tired of hearing this, but like, is love about gift or about taking it's about gift or about need. I can love someone for simply what they do for me, but that's really loving myself as I try to pretend to love them.
Charity doesn't suppress temperance. Doesn't suppress human, love it dramatically enhances it. So for the Christian tradition, it's about that, which is perfective of our nature, which brings us to an objective happiness. So happiness, not merely as a subjective state of contentment, but the objective happiness.
That is the perfective of my nature, a happiness that is not easily taken away. It's not simply about what happens to me. It's the fruit of my character. So the Christian tradition says that's exactly right. And let me tell you more of. So good. This is mind blowing and I think, um, so many people listening are just taking all of this in and I, I think one way to summarize and correct me if I'm wrong here.
Yeah. Go for it. Is that, uh, one of the best measures of how virtuous a person is, is their level of self mastery. Would you say that's true or not? Oh, and I mean, I think it, when, when all comes to a head, can I rise above my spontaneous emotional reaction in the. And this will make or break a marriage. This will make or break a father and son, father.
And I mean, and we're not gonna be perfect, but, but think about how often we are just kind emotional pinballs and just think about all the kind of dysfunctions that, that occur when there's one comments made and then it escalates to more. And then you just develop these, these dysfunctional patterns and habits.
Roommates siblings, parents, spouses, like this is where I think. So I think you're exactly right. Can I attain self mastery? Can I be master of myself because I cannot fully love, I can't fully give myself until I am master of myself. Hmm, Dr. Susan, David is a psychologist at the Harvard medical school and she goes at this from somewhat of a more secular point of view, but she talks about how, um, this idea of emotional agility.
And she said it basically has two parts. It's it means facing your emotions, feeling them, not stuffing them away, not ignoring them. Right. Right, right. But then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held belief. So for Catholics, we would say, yeah, that sounds like virtue. That that's exactly right, because it's like you say, it's important to say this.
It's not a suppression of emotion. It's not a suppression of passion. It's a right ordering of them. And in real sense, it's even greater to do the right action with passion. So passion doesn't necessarily be the guy it's not passion's job to find the truth. It's not my emotions job to find the truth. But when I find the truth and I will.
Execute that truth. It's even greater if I do it with passion, because now my full self, the emotion, I mean, think about what the emotions do. There's a vividness to our lives. Cause the emotion there's like a Gusto to our lives that would be lacking. We're not angels or robots. Right. So love ordered by right reason.
Should bring all the passion in the world. You just have to get the, the right reason context first. And then it's actually, I think I would say this a positive. Good. So the tick spouses, for example, it's important to connect emotionally with one spouse. So the love can't be simply based on an emotional union.
That's gonna fall apart. Sooner than later, we know that, but once it's rooted in a firm act, will I give myself to you and you, to me, especially for a captain, the context of marriage as, as an into, so union form forged by God, then I have to, and I need, and I should, I should take the light in connecting emotionally with my spouse, with my kids.
The emotions are a wonderful thing. It's just not their job to find the truth, but we have to, I mean, it's it's, as you said, it's not about suppression. It's about. Channeling ordering and allowing them to enhance everything that we are. And that goes back to before the fall. You know, what the, what Catholic teaching would say when sin entered the world?
When we rebelled against God, before that time, our reason and our emotions and our appetites were all aligned. Like we didn't have to one wasn't fighting against the other, which sounds really nice. but because we're, we live in this broken world. Um, we have to realign those so to speak right in, you know, making those, and I remember CS Lewis talking about how the head needs to rule the stomach through the chest.
You know, I you're. So you're so right. It's a great, you know, I mean, and I, I, I, that sounds like abolition of man and, and Lewis, this probably is the same point. I'm not sure, but Lewis is known for saying encourages the form of the virtues in that, like, he, he has his wine and scripted letters that punches pilot was merciful until it became risky.
That it, when the, when the virtue is really tested, you will have to have courage in order to see it through. And, you know, I love that you brought up here before the fall because it's, it's. It's interesting in God's Providence that even after baptism, after we've been restored in Christ, the effects of the fall, you know, can Cubas and suffering death can Cubas meaning our kind of disordered desires.
And, uh, they remain in many states will say, well, you know, it's so interesting that they do remain and why. That we may, as they, many of 'em say that we may merit in our struggle. There's something about, I think every athlete knows this. God doesn't test us to see, are you gonna pass or not? Rather, every athlete knows this.
There's something that comes out of us that only is brought out in test that if we weren't tested, there's a greatness that wouldn't come out. If you weren't tested. And I think we know we don't want this, but we, I think we deep it. Now we know this. And so I think it's fitting in God's Providence and even look at our Lord.
I mean, he entered into our plight, uh, and traditionally, even with Mary's assumption, we've most of the traditions believe that she did in fact die as a participation in Christ suffering in death. Uh, and so even though the grace has been restored, we are sons and daughters of the father, the effects of the fall remained.
As really a way for us to participate in, enter into that great mystery of Christ that we may merit in our struggle. And you said I'd rather it not in so many times, but there's part of me deep down knows I am better for having been tested. I love that. And it makes me think of my daughter. I'm a new dad.
Um, our baby girl is actually three months today. Congrats brother. Thank you. We're we're obsessed. And it's so cool. Learning a lot about childhood development. Like learn, watching her grow. Like she's just such a sponge right now. And one of the things we've learned through a lot of the Montessori stuff is that you don't always wanna rush in and help your baby.
Like they need to struggle a little bit, like right now, She's learning how to roll over. And the temptation for me as a dad is like, oh, I'll just, I'll help you roll over. Um, but really I need to kind of hold back and say, no, this is ultimately in the end gonna make you a better, stronger person. If you do this on your own, it doesn't make I kind of sister here there a little bit, but I, I need to let her struggle, which is hard.
And when you're in the midst of it, especially as that person thinking of our relationship with God, it's like, it can be really frustrat. Yeah, no, and you're so right. And I, and I've, I've been teaching my 15th year, uh, the college students who do really well. I mean, just on the whole, we have great students, but those who have had the experience of facing adversity and persevering through it, because they, they own that.
They know they can do that. They, they become seasoned. They've been there before. You know, and I could think of examples with my kids. I mean, I, well, a couple of 'em were willing to act and, and there was this one time when, uh, I mean, honestly, like I think our most accomplished actor he's actually really talented.
Like didn't, he really got a really minor part, was super bummed. And, uh, in fact, one of his siblings got a. A bigger part and you know, it's probably in the family, like the better actor didn't get it. But long story short, I wasn't about to like call and complain to the, the, the director of the theater, anything like that.
Cause I'm like, you know, this is a bummer, but. Just embrace the moment. Embrace the moment. Whereas Lord teaching you here, um, embrace the humiliation for the moment. Be grateful for what you have, be grateful for getting a rule. Some kids didn't get any rules at all. Right. So, uh, it was just a moment of like, you're gonna, you're gonna lose some, like you're gonna get knocked down and, and it's not my job.
To make sure that that gets like fixed and switched in the moment. Rather, I'm gonna watch you grow because you're gonna get knocked down again. Life will knock you down like you, and I know this man life will hit you like a ton of bricks. And if you don't have the experience of having been knocked down, having been disappointed, having like really wanted something and come up short and the ability to persevere through that, like life is just, it's just gonna destroy us.
I mean, and it's, it's, it's about virtue. He could keep going back to it, but it's, it's all about. Virtue and virtue, not simply as like success in terms of career. Like it, it will translate in that way often, but success in life. And for me, that's what happens like, yeah, football's great. But what is the same blood, sweat and tears that I, I, I shed there.
What does that mean in the game of life and all of a sudden, like the mean of my life. Became so much more important. And I guess just to maybe give you a little anecdote, I think a lot of people let's, especially the guys out there are in this boat. I, uh, and I wasn't like a, you know, I mean, I played small college football, so I, I dream about being a Buckeye grew, you know, from Ohio, but it wasn't, wasn't, so made to overstate this, but I got accepted my high school hall of fame and we got to address the football team.
Like 17 of us from different ages, different time periods. And like so many of these guys, we didn't have Mitch time, like, you know, five, 10 minutes said, you know, all of us up here would trade places with you. High school athletes in a second. And I'm like, I'm about to contradict everything you're saying.
But so many of those guys never learn a second act. Like the highlight of their life is like junior, senior year varsity, Fred and lights. It's like, that's a really sad way to be like, I, I love my time there, but I would never go. That was a stepping stone to where I am now. And I think embracing virtue and embracing it wholeheartedly is a way to not live in the past for these kind of frankly, superficial moments that we think are the, in.
Absolutely. And it, it makes me sad too. I hear people talk about college or college years, like, oh, the best time of my life. I'm like, why not make now the best time of your life? Right. And I totally get, you know, there's good memories there. You have that community. Like I miss college in a lot of ways, but I, you know, I'm, I'm not itching to go back immediately.
I wanna live where I'm at right now. So I wanted to ask though, there's people listening right now who may be thinking like, Sounds like a lot of work and you know, our culture is so addicted to comfort. And so they might, people might be thinking, you know, this just isn't worth it. Like why, why even bother?
So what would you say? Why, why is building virtue worth the time worth the effort? Well, just look at every other walk in life that we consider important and the freedom of virtue is just like, it's just like getting in. It's just like any athletic skill that it's at first is clumsy and awkward, but over time in practice becomes fluid and effortless.
It's like learning a foreign language, which at time is clumsy and hard and difficult. It's like learning a musical instrument. I mean, all these things are examples where freedom is not the simply the ability to choose, but the freedom is the ability to do the good. And I think deep down, we want this, we see it in other areas.
And so I guess all I'm saying is, think about that same mindset. But in the game of life, and this will lead to, I mean, in so many ways it will lead to happiness. It, it will lead to a more secure and better life. Cause like for S little happiness is not so much a noun as it is a verb. Hmm. It's a verb that is the fruit of my character and living well.
What does it mean to live the human life? Well, it doesn't mean to simply choose comfort all the time. So recreation, pleasure. All that's a part of. But to make that the dominating factor is, is frankly, to lead to a life of sadness. I mean, sin leads to sadness and whether it's secular or not. I think we know that look at addiction, look at, I mean, and this is the thing is we're becoming a certain kind of person.
So I think, just think about who you want to be in five years and ask yourself how to get there. And the only way is to. Being sincere about wanting to live excellence in the little things. And it won't be perfect. It'll be a bumpy ride, no doubt. But like, I think deep down we know it's worth it. Like why would I shed blood, sweat, and tears to learn how to throw a ball better versus like becoming a better man or a woman.
And I think, I think what it is partly for us is we don't think that it's in our grasp. We think that like, you're just born that way. It's like, no. People ain't just born that way. I mean, like we have dispositions, some virtues will come easier to others and some vices will. I mean, like, so that's all true, but if you really enter into this, someone like Ariss, it'll tell you your happiness is far more in your control.
I. Then you realize because it's the fruit of your character, not simply what happens to you, whereas so much of our lives, like when I get this relationship, when I get this job, when this happens and like, we all know, man, that's a search of an end of a rainbow that ain't ever gonna come. And so it's like, maybe you, I might say this, you've tried it that way for a while.
Just give this a chance and just see what happens. Especially if you do with friends because good friends, then virtuous friends become workout partners in the game of. Who want to challenge you, but also love you and meet you with mercy when you fall. Uh, as my wife likes to say, good for good friendships are about availability.
You gotta spend time together. Vulnerability, you gotta be real and accountability. Like a friend who loves you enough to speak the hard truths. Wow. Okay. And I think for a lot of people having those friends. We don't have that. And in addition, one of the things that helped me so much is like looking to see people who are living that life, that I ultimately wanna live role models, essentially.
And I know, you know, in the Catholic church we have the saints, they live such beautiful lives of heroic virtue. And so looking to them and focusing on them, I think can be helpful as well, because so often what happens, I think is like, people think like, oh yeah, I wanna get in shape or, oh yeah. I wanna, you know, live the virtue of chassis or I wanna.
Become more courageous or whatever virtue you're trying to acquire. And we don't really know if it's worth it, cuz we haven't tasted it. But once you get to that point, you're like, man, this is amazing. Like the peace that I experienced, the joy that I experienced, this is way better than, um, you know, the unhealthy stuff I was into the sin that I was falling into.
But it's hard when you haven't tasted that. Totally. And you you're exactly right. You need levy mentors. So many people don't have heroes. We just don't have heroes anymore heroes in our lives or heroes that we look up to. You know, with our 24 hour, you know, news cycle. I mean, there's, I think we're suspicious.
Nobody's really that good. There's something lurk in the closet that I know about. And we've been, we've been, you know, kind of disappointed so often that I guess in some ways it's understandable, but we need real life heroes because virtue it's resolved, but it's also imitation. I mean like discipleship, like for the disciples with Jesus, you know, my taste, the word, the Greek word.
It really means student, but it's not student who like sits in the classroom. It's these students of a rabbi who lived with him for three years and Morris Coton is taught. So you need friends, but you need living mentors. Show me the way. So that I can imitate you. And, and as you said, the saints exhibit a, but I think we also need people in our lives that exhibit, this, that exemplify this, that show us the way that we can bounce things off of show me what it looks like to live the next decade of my life.
Give me someone just a little bit ahead of me so I can see what it looks like. What does excellence look like in the here and now? Beautiful. And the last few minutes that we have, I want to get into the tactical, cuz I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. So in your. When you want to build a virtue, how do you personally go about doing that?
And if you're willing to share, what are you working on right now? You know, everything . Yeah. So here, I think maybe what happens a lot is there's a vice that bugs us that we wish we didn't, you know, weren't addicted to didn't do. And, and the key is many virtue. Teachers will tell you, it's not just don't.
You have to practice the opposite virtue. You've gotta replace that with an opposite habit and there's gonna be struggles. It's gonna take time. But I, I really think the little things and so courage, we love courage. Like everybody loves courage. Expand what we mean by courage because you're not gonna always have physical opportunities to practice courage.
And the one that we always have opportunities for those templates, uh, because we're always gonna be eating food, things like that. So like, just take, take, I mean, just start like this take, take, um, maybe take one meal a week or one meal a day and don't do the, like the big mega fast, like what's one condiment.
You really like. What, you know, maybe you want sugar in your coffee, whatever is just, just maybe take a month and just try to try to a small, fast, a small, moderate, fast. I'm not gonna put salt or I'm not gonna use ketchup or I'm not gonna, I mean, it just on the one hand, you're probably thinking right now.
Oh, this is kind of silly. That'd be easy. Try it as soon as you try. Oh, Man and just watch yourself. It doesn't have to be forever, but just do it for month. See what happens. See, and start seeing little success stories. Uh, and I think that can go a long way. So, I mean, I think a lot of, you know, men and women struggle with this as is pornography and masturbation, things like that.
I would say there. Again, couple things. Watch what's flowing downstream. If your soul, if your mind, your heart is like a, a pool and there's a stream or a pond, or like, and there's a stream flowing into it. If that stream is dirty, it's gonna be really hard to keep this pond clean. So what's flowing into it by that.
I mean, I mean, let's be honest. Uh, what, what are my conversations? What are the movies that I'm watching? What are the, what's the music I'm listening to? What, what, what are all these things that really probably are affecting my heart and my mind in ways I'm not realizing, uh, that are gonna kind of look for an outlet.
So if you want you, can't just, you can't just get to the, the symptom. You gotta take the root out. You need accountability partners. I think also here though. What do you filling yourself up with? I mean, what is, what are you yearning for? And, and, and what if you really filled your mind with the true, the good and the beautiful, and I think here's where the conversion experience for me, the grace of Jesus Christ.
Um, what do you want Jesus that badly? And you bring him into your life. I mean, in my experience, chains were set free that had long held me down chains that I would not have thought possible. To break. So I think you have to believe it is possible. I think too often, we don't hear enough success stories in that category because I think people are afraid to sound pompous, but you need to, you need to believe that, Hey, look, masturbation is not like a, this is not like a done deal.
I mean, like there are people who don't do this. There are people who don't do this. There's people who have overcome these addictions. I think they need to hear these success stories. You know, I think sloth, I dunno if sloth is a deadly sin is sort of a sorrow at the difficulty of spiritual. Good. I think, I think that's the vice for age.
It's a sadness. It's like, I want to be great, but it's too hard. And so I roll over and die and I find myself bored, unfulfilled and restless. And so I scroll and I do things to kind of numb the pain either by pleasure or I become a workaholic and I get really super busy. So I think. Friendship, uh, accountability, fill yourself with the true, good and the beautiful, I think moments of quiet, a quiet prayer where you just listen, because that silence is loud.
I mean that when you really say I here I am, Lord, what in my life needs to change when you spend 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes like that, just listening. It's really hard to live a double life because either you'll eventually either stop the sin or you'll stop praying, but it's really hard to do. For a long time.
So I think that sounds we're just so you know, there's lights, there's screens there and I'm not against it, but like, yeah. Look up at the stars and spend some time and quiet. And your life will be better for it. I think prayer becomes so much more real when you do that. And when you bring your problems to God, not like he's a divine vending machine.
Like, Hey, gimme what I need. Right. Yeah. But really to develop like a relationship and say, okay, God like, okay, Jesus, this is what I'm dealing with. These are my problems, like right. Help me. Here and then having patience to wait to see how he communicates to you, which often in my life, at least is not through an audible means it might be through a realization.
I have, it might be through a song that I hear my, you know, my spiritual director through a friend who says something through a desire. I have something like that. He communicates in so many different ways. Totally. But, but I think per often is just so stale. If I can say that because we go into it and we kind of try to present ourselves with this, you know, neat looking suit on.
Right. And just say, God, like, okay, I'm here, I'm here to impress you. Right. We're in reality. He's like, yeah, I see right through that, but he's not gonna press us for it. Cause he's a perfect gentleman. Amen. Amen. I mean, when you go to God and your weakness and your brokenness and just what you're talking about here, Even at a practical, natural level, but we know it's, there's something supernatural going on.
It's the Lord, it's his living voice. It will clarify and refine our consciences it's so we can talk about conscience all day long, but we all know that like there's things that we would never do and we do it once. And then the second time, uh, and you're kind of used to it and your conscience gets numb when you really spend this quiet time and prayer in listening and you bring these weaknesses before the Lord, he will clarify and refine our consciousness.
And, and here's the thing. There's a real danger in being your own boss when you want to be your own boss. I mean, we all know this. If my reason and my passions are at odds. Yeah. I might align my passions with right reason or as more often than not, I will cook up some good reasons to justify doing what I want to do.
And prayer is really an active, I eat my own boss. I'm coming to you. And I want to, I want to subject myself to the truth, not the truth that I recreate to match my whims, but I wanna live in accordance with objective reality. And I want you to help me see that. And, and I think anybody and everybody, if they spend time like this, they will have that experience of I've got a deeper confidence in my own judgment, because I've been really reflective about.
And I'm not the boss. I've actually gone to someone who knows far more than I knows me better than I know myself. The, and the paradox there is that it sounds like that's, uh, the opposite of freedom, kind of putting yourself under someone else. But in reality, it leads to freedom. It's such a paradox, which I'm sure we can do a whole show on.
Yeah. And that's how, but if you're coaching a baseball team, a bunch of 10 year old kids, like, Hey kids they'll swing the bat. However you. Oh, gosh, but that doesn't make the free be great back. No, I mean, but that, that's the point is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm for autonomy to have a real life coach who wants my good, even more than I do at.
Absolutely. I played baseball growing up into college and we were always drilling. And the better the coach, the better the player. That's exactly what I saw every single time. Yeah. I couldn't, couldn't agree more with you. A few things that have been helpful to me. I wanted to throw out there to you and to everyone listening, please.
Um, and you know, these things, I don't mean it to say I'm teaching you, but I, I I've just found these helpful. I wanted to mention them and feel free to elaborate on them. Um, one. Once a week. I have a reminder that comes up on my phone to like choose a virtue that I'm focused on for the week. And then every day before, you know, when I wake up, I'm trying to think of that virtue and try to put it into action to practical ways.
And then at night I kind of do a recap of my day, which, you know, Catholics call that an examination of conscience, which I know you would, if we had two hours, you would teach on all of that. So, so that has been really helpful for me. Another thing though, is. Two things getting clear, almost like a mental image of where I ultimately want to go.
Like you were saying before is exactly what you were saying before. Like, get very clear on like here's where I wanna go. Here's who I want to be. Like, that's where the role models and looking to the saints is so helpful, but then focus like. Intensely on the next step, not getting distracted by, oh man.
There's a lot of steps to get up that mountain, but really right. Okay. I wanna be at the top of that mountain. Here's what it will be like when I get there. Now I need to take these steps this step right now and doing that has been so helpful for me because otherwise I can get overwhelming. Yeah. That's no, everything you said is beautiful.
That's exactly right. You know, we talk about virtue as good habits and, and like, how do you grow out? What repeated actions like, like acts like habits. But one thing I think your point to is it's not just repeated acts. It's also, it's also acts with a renewed and vigorous intensity. So think about it.
Like your baseball swing is something off when you're gonna like fix it. You're gonna like really focus with great deal of intentionality with a great deal of intensity. On getting it right. Especially those, those first few. So that intensity of changing that intensity emotionally, that can go a long, long way.
And I love what you're saying about one of the things I like prayer and that kind of quiet prayer is to come away with an action item. Like what do I wanna work on today and bring it to mind throughout the day? Like you said, that's beautiful and the examine, uh, examin your conscience. I just think it just spent five minutes walk through your.
and give thanks, but also ask the Lord what needs to change and, and, and, and express your, your sorrow and your remorse. Like you. I think we all know everybody from the atheist, the Catholic knows you will be a better man or a woman for having done that, where so much we live life unre, reflectively, and we just go through the motions and, and even people who leave the faith, I think often, you know, some people have a big abrupt rupture, but some people are like, yeah, I don't really know how I got here, but five years went by and I kind of just.
Train and stop going and study. And one thing led to another and here I am, that's no way to live life. It's no way to live life aimlessly like that. And so that kind. Active intentional reflection. I think just, we know it. It's, it's huge. It's huge. And I think the intensity, the intensity can make up for lost time.
That was my experience. Like the intensity to wanna live differently, sped things up in a way that I never could have dreamed of obviously by the grace of our Lord, but that intensity can go a long way. That makes a ton of sense. And I remember when I would go to like a hitting coach, for example, I, you know, it was very intense.
Like we're focusing on maybe one movement in my swing. Right. And that was it. Yeah. And the reason we did that though, was to make it mess muscle memory. And then when I would step in the box in a game. I was not thinking of mechanic at all. That, that's what I learned through sports psychology and everything.
When you get in the game and you probably know, like, remember this from playing football, like, you're not thinking, all right, this is how I need to tackle you. You're just doing it. Right. And that's the goal. That's the goal. Amen. That's the freedom, right? That's the freedom. I mean, it affect the. The teaching externally has now been internalized by you to the point where you don't have to consciously think about anymore.
So my family and I, we just started jujitsu about six months ago. Nice. It's like our new, my gosh. It's we love it. So I've got, I mean, my, it was me and my two other boys. They're 14, 15 now my 10 year old daughter's in it, my six year old son and we are just jamming, but like, it's like a dance. You don't know the steps to.
And then you practice and then you get a match and it's like, you know, it's, it becomes intuitive. And that's the whole point of the virtuous life is to become the kind of man or woman who does the right thing almost instinctively and has that kind of freedom. Whereas the person who hasn't matched the virtue, when the moment comes, they have to really gin themselves up.
Whereas the person who's acquired the habit, who's made this a pattern. It would almost be unnatural to go the other way. Like the person who's been eating right for a long time. It's weird to kind of just like eat a bunch of candy bars. Like it feels kind of weird, even though at first it was really hard to eat.
Right. And eat healthy. And now it's like, it's I wouldn't wanna do anything otherwise. And the same thing happens in virtue. And I think, like you said earlier, A lot of us haven't tasted that. And so we don't know that we don't know the freedom, the happiness, the joy, the peace in for our lives, but also our relationships that comes from that.
But I think all I can say is brothers and sisters, man, it's, it's worth the risk. What have you got to lose? And, and I just promise you, you won't regret, you won't regret the blood, sweat, and tears in this area, just as you haven't regretted that kind of effort in other areas, this is even more important and more reward.
It's gold. Man, so good. And I, one final thought on that, I just think of the heroes that we admire, whether in a movie or in real life, and one common trend is that they have virtue and then that's, it that's really what it comes down to. So to someone who wants to build this virtue, they wanna learn more about the virtues, how to implement them into their lives.
Do you have any resources that you recommend in order to do. Yeah. You know, my mentor, Dr. SRE just wrote a new book called the art of living. Uh, and it's all, it's all about the virtues, the virtues as the skills to live life well, to live life with excellence and to live a, a happy life. So that that's when I wrote a book called John Paul, second air, settle back again.
Which has my story and it it's, it's, it's kind of maybe intermediate. So there's a lot of stuff on like God and science God's existence. I have my story, I get I a primer on Aristotle and kind of virtue there. And I also go through, uh, jump all seconds, love responsibility, and so kind, kind of bring it all together.
So the last time I, I taught the pH department for a while and I taught, uh, Nick kin ethics from Aristotle and general sex love responsibility. So this book kind of came outta that. Uh, I also have, um, a book on the screw tape letters, which is a little bit easier to read and that. Uh, it's called spiritual survival in the modern world.
And, uh, that's really very much. Kind of a lot of the stuff we're talking about at the very human level, the more life, the spiritual life. And again, obviously right as a Catholic, but lots of non-Catholics and, and even non-Christians have felt, have gotten a lot out of this. Those are Amazon. I have stuff for Ascension.
I've got a study on Hebrews, a study on Romans. I, I did the great adventure Catholic Bible, so that's a lot Ascension press.com. And then my wife, um, runs kind of a website where have all of our stuff@emotionalvirtuedotbigcartel.com, emotional virtue dot big cartel.com. Her book, emotional virtue. I should have said that first, uh, fantastic on this.
And this is, it refers to the relationships and lots of really hardcore like sororities. Fraternities like people who would never darken the doorway of a church have been incredibly moved by this book. My wife just has a way of saying, well, we all know it needs to be said, but you still like her afterward.
Right? So I'd recommend. Yeah. Oh, there's so many good stuff out there. I mean, you're ministry, all the things you're doing sister Miriam, James. Um, because. When you go to live this life of virtue and you really want it. There's often deep healing that needs to happen. And, and sister Miriam's work on just going deep because as she will say, often suffering that is not redeemed is gonna be transferred.
You're gonna pass it on somebody else. Somebody close to you're gonna hurt someone because you didn't tend to those deep wounds. Wow. Uh, especially with our Lord. So I, I couldn't re recommend her work. Father. John Burns, another friend of mine. His work is. And the same kind of healing category. So that's kind of a lot, but lots of great stuff out.
Well, list those all in the show notes for you guys. And one book, if it's okay. I wanted to add into, I just thought of that I read years ago was back to virtue by Peter KRE. Yes. Yeah. Love that book. And it taught me so much about virtue and about, you know, the different virtues and a little bit about, you know, how to acquire them.
So totally just wanted throw that in there, but I love the recommendations. Thank. Yeah. You know, CS Lewis's mere Christianity, the whole middle section on the moral life is fantastic as well. I, I, I, you. My wife and I are contracted with Ascension to co-write a book. And, and really we're gonna really focus on this human formation.
That's probably gonna be more 23, 20, 23, when that comes out. And then, uh, I have some other stuff coming from Ascension on the Bible and Catholic faith, but, uh, that'll be in the next year, but yeah, I think Lewis Peter CRA three. The catechism too, is, is very great. Is, is, you know, is excellent on this as well.
Uh, there's just a lot out there, so don't get overwhelmed, just pick one and just kind of, you know, go slow and, and let the snowball kind of get bigger. I have students like how, where do I start? There's so much to read. It's like, just roll the snowball. It'll get more compact. It'll get bigger. Take your time.
You don't have to do this. So good. Dr. Shaffer, thank you so much. I wanted to give you a chance to just give everyone a little word of encouragement, in addition to what you just said, especially to people who are listening right now, who, who do feel very broken, maybe they come from a lot of brokenness.
They feel stuck in life. So much fear, things that are holding them back. What, what else would you say to that person right now? Who, who does that? They feel that inkling in their heart. They're like, I want that better life, but I just, I don't know if I can do it. I don't really know how to do it. What would you say to.
I mean, can I start by just saying this? You are not damaged goods, you are not damaged goods. I think the hardest thing for us to believe in all honesty is Catholics. It's not the Trinity. It's not the sexual issue. It's to believe that the God of the universe, the creator of the cosmos actually loves me.
That the creator of the cosmos cares that much about this spec of matter. You're not damaged goods. You're not, you're not unlovable. You are worthy. You're not a prisoner to your. Start there because I think the evil one will tell us lies all, uh, uh, and the Hebrew word, Satan, Satan literally means to Hughes, like in temptation, he's our buddy come on.
But then when we fall, he's gonna dance us with shame. And I just think there's deep shame and fear. And I just wanna say you are not damaged goods, you are worthy and you are worthy of living the life that you really want to live. And you, my friend are made for more. And I know, you know, this, you know, you're made for more.
I need you to believe that, to own that, and let's make it happen and let's make it happen together. And we can be simultaneously a masterpiece and a work in progress. As my wife likes to say it ain't gonna be perfect, but just like of those other areas, the athlete, the musician, like it, ain't always perfect.
But we know what the path is, translate the same thing into what really matters. And you won't look back and you won't regret it
so much. Good stuff in that interview. I actually listened to it again. I was so good. I wanted to hear more. I wanted to. From Dr. Swofford and if you were overwhelmed by how much information was in that interview, I wanna say a few things first. You can listen to it again, just listen to it again, to absorb more of the content.
And my advice for you, like Dr. Swofford said is just focus on one virtue at a time, just focus on one thing at a time, baby steps, keep moving in that direction. Don't try to do it all at once. It won't work, do one thing at a time. What I like to do, as I mentioned in the show is just one virtue a week. And I wanted to say, if you doubt that you're capable.
Of building virtue of changing your life of building a better life for yourself and hopefully your family or your future family. I wanna tell you that's a lie. You are capable of doing it. And I'm here to tell you that you are, and if you struggle, and if you need some help, we are here to help you. Like please make use of restored, join our community.
Get some coaching consume more of our content, whatever it takes to help you to become a more virtuous person. You can start to build virtue by reflecting on these questions. The first is simple. What advices are you struggling with the most? Right now, you probably can answer that really quickly off the top of your head, but think it through, if you need to, what advices are you struggling the most with right now?
And then what virtue? Do you need to acquire to combat it? Maybe that's one, maybe that's multiple virtue, but again, just pick one and make a super simple plan to practice that virtue today, tomorrow this week, and the keyboard there is practice like Dr. Swofford said, this is like a game. This is like a sport we're.
We need to practice to acquire these skills. And as we do that more and more, it will become easier. We'll do it more quickly. And we'll. With joy. So keep at it. Even if you get discouraged, just get up again and again, and keep going. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 56.
Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their broken family, from their parents' divorce, or whatever's going on in the family, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.
