#152: The 3 Ways to Find Meaning in Suffering | Jack Beers

When Brandy was only a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father’s alcoholism. From the outside, her story might seem like a “best case” scenario—she was raised by a courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather. 

But underneath it all, she carried wounds no one could see. She believed perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her. One wound even stayed buried for 20 years. 

In this episode, we explore:

• The shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood—and what it revealed

• Why her marriage should’ve failed statistically—and how she and her husband beat the odds

• And what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear

If you've ever felt pressure to be perfect, feared repeating your parents’ marriage, or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you.

Get Jack’s Course or FREE Class: RISE: Drawing Meaning from Suffering Through the Lens of St. John Paul II, Victor Frankl and Jesus

Book a FREE Mentorship Session with Jack

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

Get Joey’s Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Jocko Willink "GOOD" (Viral Video)

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:44)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Ponnarelli. If you come from a divorced or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Jack Beers. Jack has actually been on the podcast before. He's the founder of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade of experience as a speaker and leader in ministry, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute, which basically means he's trained to walk with a company.

people who are going through a lot of hard things in life, through storms in life, through an integration of sound psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology. The certification was developed and led by Dr. Greg Batara, who's been on the podcast as well. Jack lives in Cincinnati with his wife and their three children. The truth is that so many of us who come from divorced or dysfunctional families never learned how to deal with pain and suffering in life in a healthy way. And as a result, we usually fall into numbing our pain or we get stuck in bitterness. But

What if, what if you can not only learn how to navigate your pain in healthy ways, but actually draw meaning from your suffering and emerge even stronger? That's what we discussed in this episode, plus the shocking diagnosis that Jack received at 11 years old and how it rewired his entire future, why suffering always pushes you into one of three paths and how only one leads to freedom. We talk about why we often fall into numbing our pain and the three ways to find meaning in suffering and how to overcome the obstacles that prevent it.

And finally, Jack offers a new resource to help you find meaning in your suffering. So if you're suffering, if you're going through pain right now, perhaps because of your parents divorced or the breakdown of your family, this episode is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith, that if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. This is not a strictly religious podcast, everyone knows that. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you would be this, just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip the God parts, you're still gonna benefit from this episode. And with that, here's our

Jack, welcome back to the show, great to have

Jack (02:38)

So good to be with you again, Joey.

Joey (02:40)

This topic is really near and to my heart. And because I think so many of us have gone through life without really receiving any training, formation, any sort of guidance on how to handle pain and suffering in life well, not to mention how to maybe draw meaning from it, how to draw some goodness from it. And what I've seen, especially in my own life and the lives of the young people that we work with, is that so often we respond to pain in really unhealthy, destructive ways.

just to cope with it, just to kind of numb ourselves. And so I'm curious, like, why are you so passionate about helping people draw meaning from suffering and navigating this whole area of like pain?

Jack (03:13)

Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about this the first time that I was here, but I was diagnosed when I was 11 years old with Crohn's disease and the doctors gave dark prognosis. You won't be much taller than five feet, you won't be able to go away to school, you won't be able to hold down a job, you'll have three hospital stays a year every year until you die and your life expectancy is pretty low. And the road to proving that prognosis wrong was extraordinarily difficult.

a lot of suffering, lot of physical suffering, a lot of emotional suffering, being ostracized from other people, but also suffering of the will. In order for me to get healthy, I had to adhere to a really intense diet. This food regimen was 12 foods total, including spices. So, salt is on the list of 12. It was 12. I ate a variation of the same three meals every day for 12 years.

a lot of suffering in that. But when I got to the other side, when I graduated college and I'm six feet tall and I have a job lined up and I had one hospital stay in the 12 years since I had been diagnosed and fully healthy, in remission, living a normal life, I got to that day, I got to that graduation and there was so much personal satisfaction. And I remember feeling just like so much joy and so much

so much meaning and it contrasting with a number of people in my life, in particular, as somebody who I had been close to who had died of a heroin overdose, that it was so clear to me that everybody suffers. It's universal. Like the old phrases that the only guarantees in life are death and taxes. It's like, no, there's another guarantee. That guarantee is that you will suffer and that suffering, you'll either respond to it by drawing meaning out of it.

by it totally breaking you and destroying you, or you'll dive so far into numbing agents. And there's so many different numbing agents, work, drugs, alcohol, sex, now social media and your phone. There's so many numbing agents. Those are the three paths that you can take. There's not a fourth path, there's not 10 options, there's not 50 options, there's three. You can repress it through numbing, it can destroy you and turn you into a bitter person, or you can get better.

One of the phrases I like to use is like, when suffering comes, you can get bitter or better. Like that really is the pathway. And I didn't feel like there was anything special about me. I still don't feel like there's anything special about me, right? Like I don't necessarily have some sort of extra human capacity for suffering or whatever. there isn't necessarily something that makes me an outlier from other people. And so I wanted to reconstruct what happened. Like what did happen?

How did I get from being 11 and just having this horrible prognosis to the last 10 years of my life, total remission, total normalcy, able to do everything that a normal human person would be? How did I get there? And is there a way to duplicate it? And so I just, really wanted to pay forward some of the gifts that had been given to me to other people, because everybody suffers and you actually do have the ability and the capacity to make the most of it.

Joey (06:37)

Now this is again, just really close to my heart. I actually have a talk that I give called ⁓ Better Not Bitter. Yeah, yeah, no, because it's just so important for all of us. Whenever I give the talk, I feel like I'm speaking to myself and everyone else gets to listen. I need to this stuff again and again, because I'm no expert on this stuff, but it's just been a lot of lessons over the years that have been helpful in navigating suffering, because I handled it so poorly so many times. like, okay, this has to be a better way to do this. But I want to stay there a little bit with like,

Jack (06:44)

Really? didn't know that.

Joey (07:06)

Why we handle it poorly. Yeah, why do we handle it so poorly? Obviously like it's really attractive to just binge on social. It's attractive to, you know, fall into like binging on sex or porn or whatever to just numb ourselves. But I'm curious, like what's underneath all of that? Like what are we looking for in those like kind of empty pursuits?

Jack (07:26)

One of it is just escaping, right? When you're confronting something dark and you're uncertain about how things are going to go, you're uncertain about how things are going to change, at a certain point, you want to stop having to confront that thing. Or if you're, let's say you're younger and you just don't have the capacity for it, you can't articulate what's happening to you, right? Like you can't even articulate the emotions. One of the most important jobs of a parent is that when, you know, your three-year-old is throwing a tantrum, that you name what's happening.

You're like, what you feel right now is frustration. You are frustrated. And these are your options in how you can handle being frustrated, right? And so when you suffer, it's so disorienting. It's almost like you come back to that state of like, I don't know what's happening. It's difficult to really orient my life and say, I know where north is, I know where south is. Like it's very disorienting. And so you just, you wanna step out of it. You want to walk away from it.

⁓ And until you have a real sense that there's a pathway forward, you would rather stay distanced from the mess than have it knock you on your butt and you stay on your butt or even try to get up and go forward. One of the things that's really fascinating is when a storm comes in the animal world, there's only one animal that like turns toward the storm and it's the buffalo. Like everybody else, their instinct is to take shelter or to try to outrun the storm, but the buffalo is like,

The shortest distance between me and calm, between me and peace, between me and sun is actually walking into it. And let me turn toward the storm, let me walk into it. And so we're the opposite of the buffalo. Like we're, our natural instinct is to hide, is to run. And it's that flight, or freeze mechanism. And what we don't realize is we have the capacity to be buffalo. Like we can actually turn toward the storm and we can actually walk through it and come out to the other side.

Joey (09:18)

Love that. Love that. So I want to dive into this. Then how does someone draw meaning from suffering? How do we navigate this in a healthier way?

Jack (09:26)

Yeah, so yeah, let's dive into what Viktor Frankl calls the three paths to meaning and we can do that. And if we have a chance to, I'd also like to talk about the obstacles to actually pursuing these three paths because there are serious obstacles to doing that as well. But the three paths are really important and they're accessible to everyone at every time. And here's how I know this. They've been developed by Viktor Frankl, Jewish psychologist who formulated these three paths to meaning.

in the context of being in Auschwitz in a concentration camp and then reapplying it in other contexts in the development of a form of psychology called logotherapy. So what I'll share is tried and tested and tried and tested in the worst of human circumstances. So this is like as raw and as real as we can get to no matter where you are.

As long as you have your mental faculties, you can follow these three paths to drawing meaning from your suffering. The first is in relationship. So Victor Frankl, in his suffering and in his pain, he experienced despair, he experienced a sense of meaningless into what was happening. And instead of absorbing the meaninglessness, instead of absorbing the pain, he actually leveraged his imagination. And he leveraged his imagination to reconnect

with an experience of love. And so he would imagine his wife's face. He'd be walking in what would largely be considered a death march. And he would, in his mind's eye, imagine the love that he experienced from his wife. And love is the highest form of the human experience. And it is the highest form of relational connection. And the reality of connecting with love gave him the inner tools to endure the intensity of the moment. So that's

That's the first one. it's not everybody maybe is sitting there being like, I've encountered love. And if that's the case, like the other option that Viktor Frankl talks about is encountering beauty. Like if your world is so dark and difficult and you're like, I can't even think of a single experience of being loved, go watch a sunrise, go see something or seek something that is beautiful. And Frankl talks about how when you encounter something beautiful that is outside of yourself,

you are actually drawn from outside of your pain and you can look at your pain and you can see your pain with compassion and understanding, but you can also feel at that point in time a desire that will emerge to press on, to keep going, to keep fighting the fight that you're trying to make the most of whatever is in front of you. so, Frankl was on this first step is like,

Even when things get as dark as they can be, the sun still rises in the morning and you can still go see something beautiful that will draw out the best in you. So I want to pause at the first one. I don't want to just necessarily go through all three because I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, on even your own experience of beauty and love and how that maybe has impacted your journey.

Joey (12:36)

Yeah, no, no, thanks for teaching on all this is so good. And one of the things that has hit me always is that just how healing and comforting love is overall. And even like, like you said, maybe someone doesn't have like a romantic partner, a boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, but even in my friendships with other guys, it's like that was incredibly like comforting and helpful to just be in their presence and not even to the extent that we were like talking about really difficult things that would come up at times, but it wasn't a constant like flow of like,

therapy. It was really just being in the presence, doing life together and really challenging each other to like be, you know, better men, to be virtuous men, not just, you know, maybe playing sports or video games together. There was like a bigger purpose, which I was really blessed with in high school to have those guys. So I could definitely see that there. And then when it comes to beauty, I remember just dealing with, you know, a lot of the kind of emotional turmoil and pain that followed my parents' ⁓ split and eventual divorce.

And just how, yeah, exactly what you said, how comforting it was to just watch the sunset, to listen to beautiful music, to eat good food, to just go on adventures with friends, eventually travel. That became such an amazing outlet for me. So I'm tracking it.

Jack (13:45)

Healing,

right? When you go travel, there's a healing component to new things and wonder and seeing that the world is big. My thing was I would go outside, especially in the winter on a clear night, and I would look up and I would just watch my breath move to the stars. And there was something so grounding about that. Like, I'm a guy, I'm not like, I'm gonna go seek beauty, you know? But that's what I was doing. was like, I need to know that there's something bigger happening than just me.

And love, yes, I don't just mean romantic love. I mean agape love or philia love, brotherly love, friendship love. Like an encounter with someone who tells you, like, I love you. One of the things that draws meaning for me out of this is when I work one-on-one with people who have obsessive-compulsive parts or even obsessive-compulsive desire or disorder, they will say things that maybe sound like irrational or whatever. Like I'm going to...

I'm afraid I won't get my car. I'm afraid of getting in my car because if I get my car, I'm going to run someone over. And the natural tendency is to say to them, you're not going to run anyone over. Just get in the car. You can do this. I'll show you. Everything's going to be fine. And it's actually the exact opposite of what you want to do. You don't want to reassure them through logic. You actually want to enter into the pain with them and say, even if that happens, even if you run someone over, you're not separated from love.

you will not do anything that separates you from love. And when I'm working with people, I'm specifically in those instances talking about the love of God. And there's a reason why God is such an important component of healthy therapy. Like it's a grounding experience for people to be able to be like, yes, even if this worst case scenario happens, like even if my parents get divorced or even if I never talk to my dad again, I'm not outside of the love of, I'm not outside of love. I'm not outside of the reach of love.

Even if I do this thing and my whole life crumbles like I'm not outside of it, it gives hope and it creates a context for actually drawing meaning from the suffering and the pain and people who have obsessive compulsive thoughts and ruminations and scrupulosities. mean, they're in serious pain a lot of the time and that's how we draw meaning. Wow.

Joey (15:57)

No, I love all this. I'd love to go deeper into the third point. What was that one?

Jack (16:01)

Okay, so number two actually is self-gift. Yep, so number one is relationships with love and with beauty. Number two is self-gift. So John Paul the Great actually talks about this, that as human beings, we don't just have a vocation, we are a vocation. And our existence as a human being, we are meant to be a self-gift to other people. That's our purpose in life, is to make the invisible God visible.

Joey (16:06)

I see, ⁓

Jack (16:30)

by being a self-gift. And he points to Jesus being really the only figure, like wisdom, guru, spiritual figure, that doesn't say the path to happiness is self-possession or self-mastery for its own sake. He's the only one who says, self-possess yourself, know thyself so you can give thyself. And Viktor Frankl, one of the things that he says in order to draw meaning out of suffering when you're in the context of suffering is that when you suffer, it's self-absorbing and self-defeating.

So if you can get outside of self by thinking of another person, deciding that, you know what, my friend is having a tough day or they have a big job interview, I'm gonna surprise them with coffee. That doing that, making yourself a gift, thinking of another, doing something selfless shows you that you don't have to be consumed or broken by your pain. You can still be a gift to the world. And that, in that context, and the context of suffering is tremendously

St. John Paul II talks about like, that's why Jesus gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan. Because man can't find himself except by making of his life a gift. And suffering, seeing the suffering of another draws love out from you. So even when you're suffering, when you see the suffering of another person, if you allow yourself to engage in that, it will actually draw out the best in you. It will draw out compassion, empathy, generosity, and then you'll see that

You're not broken by your suffering. You're not incapacitated by it. You actually still have the faculties of love and you still have the faculties that you need in order to be a gift. And even more so, if that person knows you're suffering, the gift you give them will have a tenfold impact. They'll be like, my gosh, I know that you're going through this really hard thing and you still thought of me before my job interview? Wow, right? Wow, it's incredible. So that's the second one, self-gift.

And then the third one is probably Frankl's most famous. know, he talked about how as long as we have our mental faculties, the last of human freedoms is choosing your attitude in any given circumstance. And your attitude in response to life can actually draw meaning from it. ⁓ So there's a really viral video that went out by Jocko Willick. And he went through this litany of things that he was, he's a Navy SEAL and he was a commander and he was in charge and

and people would come to him with all their problems. And he started developing this attitude where he would, someone would come up to him and be like, you know, we're out of ammunition over here. And he'd be like, good, good. That means we get to exercise our creativity or whatever it is that he would do. And he was like, I developed this attitude of whether good fortune or ill fortune comes my way, I'm going to respond with, this is for my highest good. Whatever it is, this is coming to me and it can be used for my highest good.

And I get to choose, I choose whether this tends for my highest good or it tends for my destruction. I choose. So he developed this attitude and you can see this across, you know, across the spectrum of people who make the most of their lives through difficult experiences. One of my favorites is Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc was persecuted largely for her faith after she had just saved France from being taken over by England. And so she's persecuted.

And during the persecution, people were like, you know, if you keep down this path, they're going to kill you. And she's like, I'm not afraid. I was born to do this. And I like, I put this over my kid's wall. I'll send you the pic, I'll send you the picture of this, but I had someone come in and paint and paint this picture and put words right above where my kids sleep. And it says, I'm not afraid. I was born to do this. And I call it our family motto. Cause I'm like, if I know it sounds dramatic, like sometimes it's bringing a bazooka to a fist fight, but if

If you get into a context where you're surprised by a test at school and you say, I'm not afraid, I was born to do this, or you realize that you like this girl and you're afraid to go tell her that you like her, I'm not afraid, I was born to do this, whatever this is, rejection, acceptance, boyfriend, ostracization, I was born to do this, they'll live an incredible life, incredible, incredible life, and there's literally nothing that will stop them. They will have a deeply meaningful life.

So those are the three, ⁓ its relationship with love and beauty, its self gift, and then its attitude.

Joey (20:57)

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I love this and we'll definitely make sure to link to that video by Jaco. I am. Yeah, it's a good one. I love that. And it's cool to see too, cause he's not like a deeply religious guy, but you know, there's a lot of even human wisdom in that approach of like, you know, something good can come from this. Not, not all is lost when things don't go our way. And, and you know, through the video, he, talks about specific examples. So definitely a great video. We'll link to that. Thank you for bringing that up. And the other thing I wanted to touch on briefly was

That advice to kind of look outside of your pain, look beyond your pain, look to someone else who's maybe going through something hard and helping them, was really transformative for me. I remember in high school, one of my mentors encouraging me to do that. And it helped so much. I wanted to kind of maybe get your advice on this one thing though. Sometimes I've gotten maybe a little bit of pushback on this or heard the objection that, but we can't always just focus outside of ourselves and focus on other people. There is perhaps a way to escape.

from your pain in an unhealthy way by just focusing on others outside of you. So what's that balance, I'm curious, between like sometimes you need to tend to your wounds, but other times, like you're saying, we have to look beyond our pain ⁓ because there is healing in doing that itself.

Jack (22:44)

So what's great about this question is this is one of the obstacles to drawing meaning from suffering. So the two biggest ones, and there are many, the first one is how you view your life. Do you view your life as something that were you made on purpose? If you were made on purpose for a purpose, you are going to go searching for the meaning and you are going to be willing to endure the dark night before the sun rises. You're gonna be willing to do it because there's

there's a perspective in your mind and in your heart that like you're here to do something meaningful. And it's not necessarily like, ⁓ I'm going to cure cancer. I'm going to do something and go viral. And we know whatever it is that, that is currently most attractive in the world. It might, it might simply be like for me, I got healthy and there's nothing more meaningful than because I got healthy, my kids are in the world. Like there's nothing more meaningful to me than thinking about that. Like,

If I had given up, they wouldn't be alive. I wouldn't know my son's smile. And there's a mystery to meaning in that it works backwards. It has a redeeming quality to it. That while you're going through it, it seems dark and it seems heavy. And when you get to a certain place in your life, you're almost forced to be grateful for it. Because if anything else had been different, you wouldn't get to where you've gotten.

Just like despair works backwards and even some of the pleasure and the joy that you experienced during the time of your trials, it can get taken from you if it leads you to a place of bitterness. If it leads you to a place of getting better, it works backwards. And there's tremendous mysterious meaning that comes from it of like looking back and being, I did make the most of that. And because I made the choices that I made, I'm here now. So that's one of the obstacles. The other obstacle

is just validating the fact that you're in pain. John Paul II says this, and I think it's so counterintuitive for people who are of faith and people who are not of faith. Because you'll go to a funeral in a Christian context and you'll hear people say things like, don't worry about it, they're in a better place. All is well, they're in a better place. And you contrast that with Jesus who knew he was going to resurrect Lazarus, being at the tomb of Lazarus minutes before he resurrected him.

weeping with Martha and Mary validating their emotional experience and their pain for the sake of validating their pain. And Jesus basically saying, resurrect after validating. Even Jesus, like if you look at the life of Jesus as someone who is a great person to model your life after, as someone who's best way to live. Like Jesus validated his own emotions in the Garden of Gethsemane. Like, Father, take this away from me. Jesus' sweat, blood.

because of how anxious he felt and he acknowledged the pain, he acknowledged the fear, he acknowledged his desire of not wanting to suffer and not wanting to go through that. And then because his feelings didn't rule his life, he still made the choice to do the thing he was called to do and the resurrection came from that. And so the obstacle oftentimes can be for us that we don't actually confront the brutal reality of our pain. It's like your dad cheated on your mom. Were you not worth it for him to stay faithful?

You know, like that's confront the brutal reality of that. That hurts. That stings. That's awful. That's heartbreaking. That's terrible. Those feelings don't change your calling and who you're made to be. But in order for us to get there, our first step, our first step toward healing and redemption and resurrection is staring that pain in the face and acknowledging it. Like this is terrible. I'm not okay. Doesn't mean I have to wallow in it and I get to ignore pain in other people.

doesn't mean I get to be absorbed by it. But if I don't acknowledge it, the door to the rest of your life is hard to open. Do you think that answers the question, or do you think it creates more mystery?

Joey (26:39)

No, that makes a ton of sense. remind me then the first obstacle is just how you view your life or would you phrase that a little bit differently?

Jack (26:45)

Yeah,

so I talk about it like this. When I was five years old, I was hit by a car and I flew 20 feet in the air. I landed on my head. Like everybody thought I was dead. And that happened at like two o'clock in the afternoon. At 2 a.m., I'm in my bed at home. Severe concussion, sprained neck, bruises all over my body, but no issues. No internal bleeding, no broken bones, no brain damage, nothing. And so for like three years straight, everybody was just like...

It's a miracle, kid. There's gotta be some reason why somebody was looking out for you. There's gotta be. Ever since that moment occurred, I have felt like I'm here on purpose. Before I ever really considered God or had a sense that there was a creator or anything, I just lived in this emotional and spiritual space of there's some purpose to my life. I was given a gift to stay on this earth and be alive, and I need to pay that gift back. And that, when the news hit that

I was sick and that my life might be over, there was a part of me that was like, no, no, I didn't survive that just to be crushed by this. There's something else going on here and I'm gonna try to make the most of this thing. It's that view on life, that view on self, that view on what it means to be human, that changes everything because if you don't believe that, if we just play that out, if it's like I'm here at random, then suffering is random, then obstacles are random and

Who cares if you make the most of it or not? And the reality is the rest of the world cares. Like your potential future kids care, you know? The person that you're meant to help a year from now cares. Like if you go through something, here, I want to say this to you too. ⁓ Sorry if I'm rambling here, but it just, it popped into my head. There's something really mysterious that St. Paul says. St. Paul says that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was perfect. It's flawless. It was perfect. And

and we can make up for what's lacking in Christ's suffering. And it's like, how do you make sense of those two things? They seem like they're opposites. How do you make sense of them? And John Paul II, he says something so important, and if we believe this, it changes everything. He's like, Jesus' sacrifice was perfect, and there was nothing lacking in it whatsoever. But, but, our ability to relate to Jesus is made easier through the witness of other people. So Jesus is a man

who never married. There's a gap for a woman who has a miscarriage to be able to connect her suffering with Jesus' suffering. And that's bridged by another woman who also went through the same thing, who has found meaning in her suffering, who has found a deeper connection with God and the people around her through her suffering, who is now turning around and talking to this mother over here and giving her hope and making up for what is lacking in the space between where you are and where you...

where you wanna be. And it's the same thing for us. Like when you suffer, when you're going through something difficult, like exactly what you're doing with this podcast, Joey, right? Like if you had never made the most of the suffering that you went through when your parents divorced, you never would have created the podcast. You never would have turned around and lent a helping hand to other people. And how many people would have been worse off because you didn't create this podcast that gives people hope at restoration and healing, right? And so when you're in the mess, if you feel like your life has meaning and has inherent purpose,

you can actually look forward into the future and be like one day I'm gonna get here and I'm gonna turn around and help people like me and that'll be enough. Like that's the type of doors that can be open to you.

Joey (30:20)

That's

good, that's helpful. And I'm curious, I'm eager to hear the other obstacles.

Jack (30:25)

Yeah, so another obstacle is why does God allow suffering? Like, why does suffering exist at all? And another way of looking at this is like the problem of evil. So great minds like Nietzsche, you know, he's a brilliant man, deep philosopher, and he's nihilistic. He essentially believes that there is no real meaning to life, that all there is is a will to power. And he concluded that like all life is is suffering and the best you can do is find a way to pleasure.

Right? Like he did not believe that God existed primarily because of the existence of suffering. And John Paul II, I'm just going to use him. I'm going to stand on his shoulders because he is so compelling on this. He walks us through this in a really powerful way, whether you believe in God or don't believe in God. The wisdom from this is really meaningful. He says it's natural as a human being when you suffer to ask why. He goes as far as to say, as God expects us to ask him.

Why am I suffering with a mind full of dismay and anxiety? God expects us to do that. He doesn't condone us. He doesn't judge us. He doesn't get upset with us. He's actually literally waiting for us to go to him and say, why am I suffering with a mind full of dismay and anxiety? So you unexpectedly lose your spouse. You get a cancer diagnosis. You tear your meniscus. Your car is broken into. You unjustly lose your job. You may say, why is this happening to me? And John Paul II says,

God expects you to go to him as that being your first reaction and say, with a mindful of dismay and anxiety, why? Why? And he said, like, when suffering happens, we're uncomfortable with the uncertainty that exists. Like, why? I'm a twin. Why did I get Crohn's and my twin sister didn't? Right? Why did that happen? You know, why couldn't I have been born to parents who stay together? Why couldn't I have existed and they stayed together? Like, why? Why is that?

Why is that the case? And John Paul II uses the book of Job to communicate our natural responses to that mystery. in Job, so Job, for those of you don't know, Job is the stand-up guy. He's awesome. He's successful at, he's one of the only biblical figures who's great at everything who's a male. He's a great dad, he's a great provider, he's a great leader, he's a great follower of God. He's great at all four, husband, father, provider, and follower of God. And...

You can't, other than St. Joseph, you literally can't find another person who fits that description other than Job. So Job is special, right? He's special. And he loses everything. His wife, his kids, his job, his health, his money, everything. And all of these people come to Job, who are so-called friends, and they're like, you must have done something wrong. You must have done something wrong. Like, God is just, you did something wrong, and now you're being punished. And Job is like,

Nope. Nope. No, I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't deserve this. And Job is the story of a good man who goes from having a dream life to literally the ultimate worst nightmare. And so our natural human tendency is either to just give in and just be like, well, there is no purpose to anything. Everything is random. Or to be like, I somehow deserve this or this is somehow punishment for my ancestors. And this plays out to today.

Like this is happening right now. ⁓ Friends of mine, like a friend of mine, when he got diagnosed with brain cancer when he was a kid, his parents were like, this is punishment for our infidelity. Like our minds need to fill the gap of uncertainty. I don't know why I'm suffering, so I fill in the gap of justice or there is no meaning. And so Job is like, neither of those are satisfying. I know that there's meaning because I've experienced love and I've experienced meaning through love. ⁓

I know that there's meaning. know that nihilism is nonsense. I also know I didn't do anything wrong. So then what's the answer? And so he asks God and he's like, I'm going to sit here and wait. And again, God doesn't come down and like condemn him. He's not like, how dare you ask me this question, you rascal. You're the worst. You unfaithful, terrible person. He says, where were you when I made the heavens and the earth? Which as Saint John Paul the second tells us that we can understand that as like God holds the mystery.

God holds space for the mysteries, like you're not gonna know. You are not going to know. And the answer that I could give you is going to be really unsatisfying for right now. And I'm never going to eliminate the mystery of why suffering exists. I'm only going to create a path to meaning for you. And we can know this too. One of the best examples of knowing this is miscarriage. A couple has a miscarriage and they lose their child and they're devastated and they're really sad. They're able to conceive again and they have another child.

That couple isn't like, thank goodness we lost the first child so we can have this second child, right? Like, they're literally sitting there being like, I wish I had both. And I'll never know why I couldn't meet this child, but I can meet this one. I'll never know this side of heaven. I will never know. And St. John Paul II says, Jesus, he doesn't come and take away the mystery of suffering. He comes and says, I'm here for love.

In order for love to be love, it must be free. And because it's free, people have to have the choice to do good or to do evil. So instead of taking away love, instead of giving you a deep understanding and a satisfying answer as to why the mystery of suffering remains, I'm going to just come and be with you in your pain. I'm going to make sure you're never alone. At a minimum, you're never alone. And as long as I'm with you, and as long as you're never alone, there will always, always be a path.

to draw meaning. so out of this St. John Paul II says, embrace and validate your own emotional experience. Don't explain it away. Don't run from it. Don't numb yourself to the mystery. And also don't give in to the feelings either. You're not your feelings. Your feelings don't determine what you must do. Instead, connect with the reality that you're not alone, acknowledge the pain, and then start walking the path to meaning.

Joey (36:32)

For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more.

One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough. By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books.

to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restored ministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. Love it. So deep. So good. Any other obstacles or do we cover all of them? Yeah.

Jack (37:40)

No, ⁓ there are other hard challenges that we could talk about like the forgiveness. Whenever you suffer, forgiveness comes into the equation and forgiveness is really hard as well. So suffering begets suffering in some ways and the need to forgive yourself and forgive God and forgive other people is really important. But those are the main obstacles to drawing meaning from suffering.

Joey (38:02)

Okay, could you go through the like titles of each just in case people are taking notes or want to hear them again? then- Sure.

Jack (38:09)

The main obstacles. Yeah. So, the meaning of your life. Like, what is the meaning of your life? Why are you here on earth? That's answering that question is the first obstacle. The second obstacle is acknowledging the weight of your own suffering. Sometimes, you know, people refer to this as defining the brutal reality, being willing to ask God why and okay with living in the mystery of not knowing why, but knowing that you're not alone and that there is a path forward.

Love it.

Joey (38:40)

I want to switch gears a little bit and ask the question, you know, what's the danger if we don't handle suffering well? We kind of alluded to it at the beginning, but I think sometimes, especially if we're not in the midst of suffering, we can have this kind of attitude of like, yeah, I'm good. Like maybe I'll kind of cross this bridge when I come to it, but I'm curious, like what's the danger if we don't handle suffering well?

Jack (39:02)

suffering will make you or it will break you. And that's just a phrase. So let's talk about it on actual terms. A friend of mine, he's older than me. He's significantly older than me. When he was 19, he was dating the girl that he thought that he was going to marry. And he found out that she was actually cheating on him. He's 19 years old, all American, star of the football team, hilarious, just, and really good person, right? Very attractive.

human being in general, not just he is good looking, but just like an attractive person. A lot of people were drawn to him. Find out that she's cheating on him, never enters into a serious relationship again for the rest of his life. He was defined. He let this person's choice and the pain that he felt and the suffering that he went through define the rest of his life and rob him of so many good things. A story that I heard many years ago of two men who were in Auschwitz together, two Jewish men who were in Auschwitz together. They hadn't seen each other.

There was 30 or 40 years they hadn't seen each other since they were liberated from the camps and they're surprised they're both giving like a 40 year anniversary talk and they're surprised that they're together. And so they see each other and they have this amazing embrace and they both share a little bit of a witness of what their friendship was like and how it helped them get through Auschwitz and things like that. All off the cuff, all really beautiful. They take Q &A at the end and someone raises their hand. like, have you forgiven the Nazis? And the first one stands up and says, no, and I never.

And the second man looks at him and goes, I'm so sorry for you, my friend, that after all these years, the Nazis still live rent free in your mind. They still have you imprisoned in your own mind. Yes, yes, son, I have forgiven them and I've forgiven them long ago. Right? Like that's the cost. Nobody looks at me and says like, there's the sick kid. Right? No one looks at you, Joe, and you're like, you're the child of divorce. You're the guy who never bounced back. You're not defined by that.

There are so many other things like just being in your presence and having gotten to know you a little bit since the first podcast and getting to spend some time with you. Like what I would define you as is like you're one of the best and sincerest listeners I've ever met in my life. That's what I think of when I think of Joey. know, like I'm like, it's beautiful. Like that's what you're defined by. You're not defined by this brokenness and that's at cost. That's what you're really missing in many ways.

Joey (41:21)

So good. No. And I think by everything you said, I would just echo and yeah, and just even in my own life, just it's kind of humbling what I hear you saying, especially in that story of the two men from Auschwitz, our lives can go different ways, right? We get to choose and we can't control what happens to us, but we can control what we do in response to it. And yeah, it's humbling for me even to think back of just a different path I could have taken.

and how my life would have looked totally differently. And I think at the core of so much of it is just like great mentors that I had who came alongside me and helped me deal with pain in life. And man, would my life, I would be in a very different spot without going into too much. would definitely not be married. I wouldn't have kids. I, yeah, would probably be living a pretty empty life, chasing pleasure, you know, maybe even, I don't even know, like maybe even not a free man. ⁓ But so I think it's amazing to think that this has such.

deep consequences. This isn't just some nice philosophical thing to think about. Like people we know are suffering every single day. We will suffer even if we haven't and how we handle it can again make or break you like you said. So good, I love this and I want to know more about your course. If you would tell us about it and you know what are you offering through it and what's the transformation especially that you want people to experience who go through it?

Jack (42:39)

Yeah, thank you. One last thing on that point of suffering that I forgot to mention. Nothing worth having in this life, like truly worth having in this life comes without suffering. Like you want a great marriage, it's going to be tough. You want to be an Olympic athlete, like are you wondering why after every final race there's people on their knees crying? Because of the tremendous suffering and the blood, sweat and tears they put into. You want to lose 20 pounds. ⁓

the food you're gonna have to eat, the workouts you're gonna have to do, it's not gonna be fun, it's not gonna be easy. You want mastery, ⁓ you wanna be masterful at something professionally. You have got to do it. If you wanna become a writer and write a book, well, you should probably write every day for years. It was pretty awesome, I'll share a little bit about it, because it'll come out soon. I just got word today that my first book is going to be published. And I'm super excited.

like, ⁓ great. Like, I've only known you in the last year. Like, you're a writer. I'm like, I have written, this is like my fifth book, and the first four were terrible. And I have written every single day for the last seven years, for at least an hour. You know, it's like, and it has sucked at times. And it's been terrible. you know, we often only see the end result. they're like, I would love to, you know, get published in a book. Right? Well,

Okay, if you want that, like you've got to go through suffering. So anything really worth achieving in life, you have to endure some pain to get there. And so that's what we forgotten. Anyway, so the course, the course is not actually for that piece. The course is for people who want to make the most of their suffering and they don't know how and they're looking for a path. They desire to make more out of their suffering. They just need a little bit of help and a little bit of support. So this is a five week experience.

It happens via email where on Mondays you receive a teaching from me. On Wednesdays I interview someone who personifies that teaching, who has gone through an experience of suffering and has emerged better from it. On Thursday I give you practicals. It's not just in theory teaching. It's not just the witness of a story, but I actually give you homework, things that you can do. And then on Sundays I actually connect to the lesson directly to a particular gospel passage. And we do that every week for

for five weeks and the content is really meaningful and really, powerful, especially the witnesses of other people. It's all in audio, so you can do it. You can listen to it while you're working out, while you're driving. It's really meant for stay at home mom or stay at home dad, slicing veggies, popping an earbud in the ear and listening to something that's gonna help them get through whatever it is, is right in front of them. The transformation for me is,

You go from stuck to free to make the most of your life. Stuck in a rut, stuck blocked by some sort of hidden obstacle that you can't get past, to free to make the most of your suffering. The course is called Rise. And this is really, for anyone who's, you know, will get value out of it if they've experienced suffering, but for the person who's on the ground right now, and they're like, I don't know how I'm gonna get up and start walking again, it was designed for you.

It's designed to teach you how to get up and start walking. So that years from now, you'll be able to look back and go. That was literally the best thing, the best decision I've ever made in my entire life is to deny my parts that want to wallow, to stand up and to walk the path forward.

Joey (46:15)

I love it. And how can people get it if they want to?

Jack (46:17)

If you go to the catholicmentor.com, first thing that'll pop up actually is one of those little pop up things. And it will be an invitation to download a free episode of the course. So you can get that there, or you can go to catholicmentor.com slash rise. And that has a way for you to sign up. It's only 20 bucks. I wanted to make it super accessible. It's tons of content, tons of information. And, you know, I was, I was told by chat GPT and other advisors like,

hey, you gotta sell this for 200 bucks, 250 bucks. I'm just like, this message is not gonna be contained by me. Anyone who needs it is gonna get it. This isn't about making money, this is about putting a dollar on it that will get you to listen to the first episode, otherwise accessible to pretty much anyone. You can forego a couple of cups of coffee to purchase this course and hopefully make the most of your life.

Joey (47:13)

Good stuff, man. Well, thank you for sharing about all that. I'm glad you were able to come back on the show. ⁓ If you could leave everyone with maybe one challenge or encouragement or piece of advice, what would you offer? Especially keeping in mind that the people listening right now come from families that are dysfunctional, divorced, and they may be carrying that suffering with them.

Jack (47:32)

You were born to do this. You were born to rise to the occasion of what's in front of you. You really were. You may not like that. That may not be exciting. That may not be ⁓ exactly what you want to hear. But you can do this. And even more than that, you were made to do this. And you were made to do hard things. Because if you don't do them, you will become a shell of who you could be. And more than anything in this world, I want you to be able to look back on your life and say, I rose to the occasion of.

I became who I was made to be and I became that through this thing. So don't be afraid, you were born to do this

Joey (48:10)

If Jack's course interests you, definitely encourage you to sign up for at least a free lesson just so can try it out. And like Jack said, the course itself is only $20. And for our listeners, he's actually offering a free 45-minute mentorship session with him for anyone who buys the course, but even for people who don't buy the course. And so you can find the link to that free mentorship session as well as to the course itself in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube.

You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us more people. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We really appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

What Can I Do If I Feel My Parents Didn't Love Me?

7-minute read.

To love and be loved: that’s what we were made for, right? And who better to teach us what that looks like than our parents?

Unfortunately, that’s not the case for everyone.

The hard truth is that parents are people too. And people are, well, human. And humans are liable to make mistakes—sometimes really big ones. (Just open the Bible to page one for Exhibit A.)

Even parents who give their absolute best to their children fall short—it’s part of that whole ‘human’ thing mentioned above. Whether it’s losing their temper or missing a dance recital, or working longer hours than necessary, disappointment is inevitable. Sometimes, the way our parents fall short isn’t just disappointing—it’s devastating.

What It Really Felt Like Thinking My Parents Didn't Love Me

Children from broken families are liable to suffer emotional neglect: a lack of love and attention from their parents.

Going through a divorce is time-consuming, heartbreaking, and completely life-changing. In the midst of it all, some parents may be so compromised that they drop the ball in one of the most important responsibilities of their lives: loving their children.

Furthermore, divorce can be accompanied by (or possibly caused by) things like mental illness, infidelity, and significant financial losses. All of this, too, can contribute to parents becoming consumed by their own suffering at the cost of the well-being of their children.

If this has been your experience, I want to first and foremost say: I’m so sorry. It seems almost unnecessary to say (but it isn’t): this is not okay, and it should not be this way.

Maybe you want to justify your parents’ behavior or find a way to make it okay. It can be extremely difficult to admit that our parents hurt us or that they messed up. But it happens. And bringing that to light doesn’t mean you have to vilify them or that the parent-child relationship is forever broken. 

In fact, admitting your parents made a mistake is the first step to forgiveness and healing. You can overcome parental rejection, but not until you first admit that it happened.

This first step can be incredibly difficult. It means facing hurt, anger, grief, and loss that you possibly haven’t experienced or thought about in years. It’s heartbreaking and overwhelming.

You may also feel guilty blaming your parents—this is normal. When you love someone, it can feel easier to pretend they never hurt you and instead blame yourself rather than facing the painful reality that someone you care about so much hurt you so deeply.

The thought “my parents didn’t love me” is one of the most painful things a child can experience. If this is where you are, give yourself the grace to experience the loss and the pain that accompany this feeling. Consider journaling what you are experiencing or speaking to a trusted mentor about it. It may also help when you are feeling overwhelmed to go for a walk. You can find more strategies for handling difficult emotions in our book, It’s Not Your Fault.

The thought “my parents didn’t love me” and the experience of parental rejection can also affect your identity for years and years to come. We’ll talk about that next.

How a Broken Parent-Child Relationship Shapes Your Identity 

Wounds that arise from those formative relationships (such as with our parents) can be some of the deepest and the most challenging to heal.

If you grew up believing, “My parents didn’t love me”, it likely played a role in shaping how you see yourself and how you see the world. The parent-child relationship is crucial to feeling loved and secure; therefore, when there is emotional neglect, significant damage takes place in our understanding of love, trust, and self-worth.

Here are some examples of what can happen if you feel unloved by your parents:

• You see yourself as inherently unlovable and unworthy of love

• You blame yourself for the neglect that you experienced because you think something is wrong with you

• You think a successful romantic relationship is impossible for you

• You don’t trust others, even those who say they care about you

• You feel anxious in relationships, assuming the other person doesn’t truly love you and will leave

• You avoid getting close to others because you fear they will realize something is wrong with you and will no longer want anything to do with you

• You become a ‘chameleon’, presenting whatever you think others expect or want of you, so that you won’t face more rejection

• You avoid taking risks, especially when rejection is a possibility

This list is not comprehensive. The effects of feeling unloved in a parent-child relationship are vast and long-lasting. They essentially shape the way we view ourselves and the world, especially in terms of relationships. It’s like walking on a broken leg that never healed properly; it affects every step you take and holds you back from operating the way you could. 

If this sounds like you, don’t worry, overcoming parental rejection and its effects is possible. The first step is understanding what feeling loved actually means.

What Feeling Loved Actually Means When You Never Felt It

One of the biggest aspects of feeling loved is security. Feeling loved means you are not constantly guessing, wondering, or hoping that someone loves you, because you know that they do! Another essential element to feeling loved is feeling seen, in other words, feeling that the other person truly understands you. 

Feeling loved means you are not afraid of conflict because you don’t think the relationship is a glass slipper; it can handle friction. Feeling loved means you don’t have a need to prove yourself as good or lovable. It also means that you don’t see every problem in the relationship as your fault. 

These are some of the key parts to feeling loved. However, we know that love isn’t a feeling—it’s a choice! It can be easy for children of divorce to conflate warm and fuzzy feelings with love. This means that if warm and fuzzy feelings are absent, you may think that you don’t really love that person or that they don’t love you. 

It’s important to recognize that feeling loved doesn’t mean you feel happy 24/7, that there are never any problems in the relationship, or that you never have doubts. Especially for children of divorce, doubts and anxiety can besiege us even in a healthy, loving relationship. 

For more guidance on navigating relationships if you are from a broken family, listen to episode #136 of the Restored podcast.

Overcoming Parental Rejection by Finding Unshakable Love

So, how do you go from feeling unloved to feeling loved? How do you overcome parental rejection and all the fallout that comes from a dysfunctional parent-child relationship?

In order to find healing as a child of divorce and overcome thought patterns such as “my parents didn’t love me,” it is essential that you understand this unshakeable truth: you are loved.

You are loved by a love that is complete, unwavering, and unconditional. You are loved by the One who created you and who holds you in existence. You are loved so thoroughly that someone died a torturous death for you. 

Understanding and experiencing God’s love can be difficult for children of divorce. Because our model of love is distorted, we often attribute the qualities of our relationship with our parents to our relationship with God.

Understanding and embracing God’s love for you will help reshape your identity as someone who is good and lovable. It will also help you overcome trust issues and see the world in a more positive light. If you struggle to feel God’s love, here are some places to start:

• Read Scripture, specifically passages such as Psalm 139, Psalm 103, and the story of Christ’s death and resurrection. Read them slowly and more than once, giving yourself time to truly take in the meaning of what you are reading.

• Pray the ‘I Thirst’ prayer by Mother Teresa. If you can pray this in front of the Blessed Sacrament, even better.

• Go to Confession and experience the power of God’s mercy and forgiveness. 

• Meditate on the ways that God has loved you through others and provided for you over the years. Practice gratitude for the blessings you have received over the years, and look for God’s guiding hand in your life, even if you didn’t recognize it at the time.

• Seeking a good spiritual director can be helpful to implement these ideas correctly.

• This episode of the Restored podcast can help if you are feeling angry toward God, as often happens with children from broken families.

It may take time and repetition, but these strategies can help you to reshape your identity as a beloved child of God. Healing is possible and God wants nothing more than to have a meaningful relationship with you. If you take the first step, He will run the rest of the way.

Final Notes

Growing up feeling unloved by your parents and parental rejection can feel like insurmountable hardships—especially when it comes to experiencing love in our relationship with God and with others. The good news is that to love and be loved is what you were made for, regardless of the trauma you have in your past. Healing is within reach for everyone and the life and love you were meant for are yours for the taking.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

My Parents Refused to Separate

36-minute read.

This story was written by Anonymous at 24 years old. His parents never separated. He gave permission for his story to be shared. Names have been changed to respect their anonymity.

HIS STORY

I was born into a Catholic family and am the middle kid of 5 (all sisters). I’ll begin with some background. My parents began fighting when I was about 8 or 9 years old. I wasn’t sure why, but me and my sisters could tell there was something going on. For the first year, it was mostly tense moments and hushed arguments between them. By the time I was about 10 years old, they had evolved into shouting and screaming matches. All of us kids began to pick up on why they were fighting. Me and my sisters began to put the pieces together from our parents shouting about their issues. It turns out my dad had been viewing pornography the entirety of their 17 years of marriage and my mom had found out recently. This was after 6-7 really terrible miscarriages and the (nearly miraculous) birth of our youngest sister in 2010. My mom’s world was shattered. She felt betrayed and deceived. My dad would continue to maintain that he was a changed man and was no longer looking at it.

That same year, I found my dad’s pornography. I can’t imagine the introduction of pornography is easy or not traumatic to any young child. But I found my dad’s. I was devastated. I was scared and confused and utterly lost. I had been a good kid, trying my hardest to pray and serving Mass regularly. But the temptation was too great for me. I remember the absolute hatred I felt for my dad later that night, but I knew it was also directed at myself. How could I do that? I realized the source of my parents’ arguing was due to her distrust of him. He would maintain that he had given it up and was no longer looking at it. Obviously lying to her.

I watched their marriage fall apart, held captive by fear and disgust with myself. I was struggling with my purity and regularly failing, only to be consistently persecuted by my conscience, telling me that it was my fault they were fighting. Every time they fought, I would be tormented with my failure to speak up, to say anything. I watched my mom slowly fall into a depressed state within the next year. My siblings and I stepped up to help with my youngest sister while my mom would stay in her room for longer and longer at a time, miserable and hurting. I believed this was my fault, that I could fix this, except that I was too weak to say anything. I was terrified of the consequences and kept quiet because I did not know what would happen if it was brought to light. I had no one to share with, I spent nights alone in my room, listening to them fighting and I started sneaking out of the house at night to the car where the porn was — a coping mechanism. Anything to distract myself. Other times I used to walk through our yard and on the back roads, trying to distract myself any way possible. There was no relief.

My sisters shared a room and I used to imagine going in there and hanging out, but I couldn’t because I held myself responsible in part for their pain and suffering. I was the one hiding this information from my parents and holding everyone hostage between my parents’ constant fights. I was scared that if I said anything, they would separate and it would be my fault, but them fighting was my fault because I said nothing. No matter what I did, I hurt my family, my parents, and myself. It felt like I was holding my family captive to serve my own desires and as a result of my failures.

Over this time, I would resign myself to fixing their marriage. I didn’t know how to go about it, but it was what I put my hope in. I tried everything I could. I shouted, got angry, wrote them an (obviously written by me) anonymous letter — placed discreetly in our mailbox from a “concerned neighbor” telling them how they were hurting their kids. Each month that passed by was another month of failure, another month of being incapable of making a change. But I refused to give up. My entire family refers to me as the most stubborn person to exist. I needed to be, because to stop throwing myself against a brick wall in an attempt to make a difference was to give up on hope. To give up on peace and happiness. I fought and I fell, and got back up, again and again. This continued for 4 terrible years. All the self-hate. The late nights reading books until I literally passed out with the light on and slouched over my book because I could not fall asleep. My mind would not turn off, or my parents were fighting, or I simply needed a distraction.

Soon after I had discovered the porn, I wrote off my dad. I began to look up to my friends’ dads and I thank God that I got to experience (even briefly) the beauty of a holy and happy marriage, even if it left me with a greater sense of longing and the accompanying despair at the absence of it. I had also been serving every Sunday and most weekdays by the time I was 9 and had developed great respect for my pastor at the time, Fr. M. Despite me acting out throughout my childhood and teen years, despite my anger and rebellious nature, the one person who I always respected was Fr. M. During a time that I was convinced of my fault and burdened with shame and guilt, he encouraged me to keep being holy, to keep fighting, always believing that I was capable of great things which I desperately needed to believe.

By the time I was 8-9, I had begun to consider priesthood, without really recognizing the true nature of it. I just knew that every time I served, there was a peace that would have me longing for it throughout the week at home. Serving Mass became my safe haven. I looked forward to every weekend and the chance to serve again. Soon after, Fr. encouraged me to consider being a priest. I was now presented with another issue: I felt a strong desire to it, but was convinced in my heart that I was a bad person because of my home life and my struggles with purity. I felt isolated; I did not know holy people struggled with porn. I knew the turds in my sports all joked about this stuff and talked about it without concern, but they weren’t Catholic. I knew this was a major deal, but I was terrified of talking about it. It was so closely linked to my parents. My parents had tried to maintain their social standing, pretending like everything was fine, but talking to their friends and sharing info about the other to their circles. This widened the gap between them and I believe sealed the coffin.

Every Sunday at church, their kids would be in the choir, serve, or be part of the various groups and we would get compliments that only left a sour taste with all of us. They were unwilling to simply sit and have an honest conversation with each other. I thought the solution was so simple — just to sit and talk to each other, and it angered me when they would passive-aggressively mention the other or confide in anyone but themselves. They began to separately pull the kids aside and talk to us, apologize, or complain about the other parent.

This despair continued for 4 years, seeing the steady disintegration of our family life. I still believed this was my fault and resigned myself to dealing with it, but also continued to try and protect my sisters if I could. Our mom would take us to the library about 3 times a week and we would get books. I realized this was an opportunity to try and find a solution. I read about everything, both as a distraction and as a means of helping. I brought books home and would read till I passed out. Books about psychology, philosophy, theology, etc. In this search, I came across the cynics and from there would pick up the Enchiridion and the Stoics. As someone who was struggling daily to convince himself there was hope — and constantly being disappointed — I was drawn into the abyss of indifference that was initially cynicism and eventually became stoicism. This was a way to feel happy! Finally, I was being offered a sure-fire way to remove the constant hurt and pain, the loneliness and shame/guilt. The answer was so simple: to not care. I could have peace if I simply convinced myself I didn’t care about my family, or my ethics, my sisters, my parents, anything. None of them were something I could control. What felt like a lifetime consisting only of failure to have a good effect confirmed me in this delusion. I was never capable of doing them any good to begin with. I was only responsible for myself and my happiness. I’m ashamed to say that it did supply me relief to be so selfish and care only about myself.

I began to analyze myself, recognizing where in my life I was “bound” by feelings of obligation and fondness. I began what I called detachment from my concerns. My family? Merely people I was randomly allotted to assist in my development. Not people who had any impact on myself or my emotions unless I let them. I wrote my first psychological self-evaluation when I was 12 and at the prodding of various books, began to research deeper into philosophy and psychology as I believed it was the cure to my world being a mess. It became the new source of hope. If I could just understand it all better, there was bound to be some solution and an offering of peace and happiness. I thank God that I found stoicism because it primed me for all of the progress to come. However, first came the overcorrection. I began to attack the principle of sympathy — and eventually empathy — as a means to find relief from my guilt. I hyper-fixated on the faults associated with dependency, damning it in all regards, and started to cognitively and physically disassociate myself from all forms of dependency. Dependency from my parents, family, friends. I only needed myself; this was possible, relief was possible, so long as I never counted on anybody. I could never be disappointed.

Except that I knew deep down, no matter how hard I tried, I needed others just as I was compelled to help others. If my sister or friend were struggling, I couldn’t bring myself to justify letting them struggle alone. No matter how selfish I tried to be, focusing on only what I wanted to do or have, I couldn’t bring myself to dismiss others’ needs. I was not perfect at this by any means, but I remember reading the life of St. Don Bosco and being inspired every time I read it, over and over. His life of service and complete surrender to God, his life of service to those poor boys whom I likened myself to. I began to have a great love and desire for the priesthood, to emulate what I read about. To be a source of comfort and a caregiver to those in need. In desolation, I found Don Bosco, the caretaker who watched over me throughout my struggles and low points. Who had a love for boys like me that I so desperately wanted to experience. In St. Don Bosco’s life story, there is mention of another Saint who I credit my life and happiness to: St. Dominic Savio. A sickly boy with nothing, no one to care for him, no family except for a kindly priest and father-figure, Don Bosco. But who remained resolute, never bending, never faltering under attacks and derision. Who, when he saw friends arguing and reaching for stones with which to bash each other’s heads in, stepped in between them and quelled the fight, saying that if they were to throw stones at each other, they must be thrown through him. This young man was capable of what I spent my childhood trying to do. I longed to be like St. Dominic Savio, to stand up between my parents and bring about some miraculous change.

I began to recognize that stoicism at its best failed to satisfy the needs of the human condition. I did believe stoicism held truths about resilience and concern, so I began looking further into it. Eventually, in my later teen years, when I was about 14-15, I came across Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) and its successor Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). Through CBT (the therapy, not the drug), I found a source of hope. I knew I was going through things and I knew I needed help, but I was still unable to ask for it, so I began — quite clumsily — treating myself.

Now it is important to take a moment to mention my pastor once more. When I look back at my life, he seems to be the only constant. An unwavering symbol of pastoral and fatherly care. I really began to look at Fr. M not as just a priest, but as my father figure. As a teenager, I distinctly remember deciding that Fr. M was a man that I would like to be like someday. He was the virtuous role model I was longing for, and I learned a lot about what it meant to be a man from watching him. Many say he is a bit of a hard-ass, but to a young boy looking for a father — Fr. was a wonderful example of fatherhood and a real source of consolation to my troubled childhood. One of the only reasons I am not in jail or worse. I was also beginning to understand what the priesthood meant and continued to feel a strong pull to discernment of it. In this, I was encouraged by Fr. M and so I began to read, pray, and discern the priesthood when I was about 14 years old.

But shame persists through every obstacle; my parents’ relationship got really bad and every once in a while, my mom would be so angry, she would take the car and leave for the night or a couple of hours. Things were bad and I regressed into a miserable state. At this same time, my struggles with pornography were debilitating. Removing the joy I had been receiving from Mass and the Sacraments, while also making me feel like a liar — like my dad — every time someone said I was a good kid, or Fr. encouraged me to be a priest. I soon dreaded serving. Every time I was told I should be a priest, I was struck with sorrow because I couldn’t imagine how I could possibly be worthy.

I had been in a boys’ high school youth group with two friends for a year or so before we went to Georgia for a national conference. It was there that a group of teenage boys all openly and honestly shared their struggles with pornography and masturbation. I was dumbfounded, awestruck. I had no clue others struggled to the extent that I did. My world and years of shame were turned upside down as I tried to process this. My close friend then shared his own struggles and I was next. I was being asked to be honest about something I had spent years covering up, pushing down, and associating so much guilt and shame with. I felt like I was not only admitting to struggling with porn but also outing my family’s dysfunction. I WAS PETRIFIED. And I still feel such disgust for myself in that moment because I looked at all of these guys and my close friends in the eyes and I lied. I lied about the porn to those who had been so honest with me. It destroyed me a little bit to have withheld that from them. I told them it wasn’t really something that I struggled with. I was so lost and broken, in my mind, I had become my dad. I had lied to those who cared for me and betrayed my friendship with others. I spent an hour walking around alone before I found a young adult leader who had traveled with us. I broke down and needed to prove that I was a good person, so I told him I was struggling with porn and needed help. God bless him, he had no clue what to do with that info and I don’t blame him. He never brought it up after that night and neither did I. I was once again miserable because nothing had changed and I had still betrayed the trust of my friends.

A week after we got back, we went on a boys’ camping retreat where I was surrounded by the guys I had lied to. I was miserable and depressed. I couldn’t bear to be near them and didn’t have the strength to ask for help again. I constantly wandered off to be alone because I hated myself every time I was near them. One morning, I snuck down to the river and sat there alone while everyone else was eating breakfast. I remember sitting there and just feeling the waves of misery running through me. I felt physically and mentally numb, like nothing mattered and even if it did, I wasn’t capable of anything. I remember thinking about going back home, but thinking that there was no way I could. I couldn’t live there. I never wanted to leave the spot I was sitting, if only to never go home again.

During this, Fr. M walked down the hill and joined me. I don’t know why he was down there — it could have been because my mom or dad had been to spiritual direction with him to complain about each other, so he was keeping an eye on me. Or maybe he saw me sulking and was concerned. Or maybe he just wanted time alone and I surprised him by being there. After some light pleasantries and a silence, he asked me out of the blue:

“Are you melancholic?”

He had asked in a delicate, almost playful manner. I do not know if he was asking to test the waters or if he was just making fun of me for sitting alone. But I was stunned. I didn’t know how to respond because I was so much more than that. He sat with the brief silence and pressed:

“Do you know what melancholic means?”

That — for some reason — pushed me out of my stupor and I arrogantly replied:

“Yes, I know what melancholic means, Fr.”

Other kids began walking down to join us at this point, but I was left with a multitude of emotions. I had wanted to break down right in front of Fr. and tell him everything, to ask him to help me. I had felt a warm and comforting feeling of genuine concern from him. I have always been a reserved kid when it came to emotions (except for anger) and was very good at masking my pain. But for the first time, I had let it slip. I was being asked how I was doing with genuine concern, from someone who had always been there for me, from someone who did not use me as fodder in their arguments. Concern from someone who loved me unconditionally, from the man who showed true fatherhood in his example and pastoral care. I was struck by that and within the next 5 minutes I had decided I would tell him everything and ask him what I should do. He was to be the St. Don Bosco to my St. Dominic Savio.

After that decision alone, there was already a sense of consolation being given to me. I chased that. Throughout the entire day, I kept looking for an opportunity to pull Fr. aside or for an opportunity to talk in private. Eventually that night, I resolved to talk to him during Exposition while he was hearing confessions. We were outside near the waterfall and I remember trembling with fear as my feet dragged walking up the small hill to the “confessional.” I encountered a rush of every thought possible, designed and pointed to deterring me from sharing. Every question of my self-worth, every failure, every weakness, and my inability to do things. Through the grace of God, I persisted. I walked up and pulled the chair set up for me so that instead, we were face-to-face. I unloaded my situation and failures and struggles. For the first time in my life, I was sharing everything. There was relief from my burden. I asked for help and was completely honest for the first time in my life. I will spare the details of the confession except to say that Fr. showed fatherly love in his concern, and for the first time in my life, there was someone I could lean on. I could ask for help and there was someone who would look out for me.

Fr. asked me to find him after confession and talk to him again (in respect for the Seal of Confession). I will not even try to describe the joy I felt. I am still unable to express my feelings into words as I waited to talk to Fr. after Benediction. Afterwards, Fr. walked off a little ways from the group and made sure that he gave me the opportunity to talk to him. In that conversation, he asked me if I would like him to talk to my dad about the porn. To this day, I cannot thank him enough for being willing to do that for me. It might have been just a difficult conversation for him to have with his parishioner, but for me, this was the single hardest thing I had ever wanted to do and had never been able to overcome. The following weekend after we had returned from the retreat, Fr pulled my dad aside and talked to him about his porn. My dad and I would later sit down and he would talk to me about it and apologize. I was not capable of forgiving him in that moment, and there didn’t seem to be any change. In fact, I had to be the one to get rid of some of the pornographic CDs. I somewhat melodramatically broke them and burned them one night, about a week after.

Things were good for a while. My relationship with my parents was strained, but gone were the days of feeling guilty for their problems and the struggles of my family. I made progress in the pursuit of chastity for the first time in my life. Things seemed like they were on the right track. I began to wrestle with concerns about my worthiness to become a priest and I began to take a closer look at my motivations and where I would like to be in the future. I became convinced that my desire for the priesthood was simply a product of trauma-induced idolization of my father figure and not a genuine call. I believed there might be a real avoidance and fear of marriage that I was hiding from by pursuing priesthood, and so I decided that I needed to carefully examine myself and work through some things first before I went through with it.

But we are still human, and when I was 16, I was put into the Running Start program at a nearby community college. If you aren’t familiar with it, essentially you are taking college classes in place of the last two years of high school and — if completed — would graduate with a high school diploma and an Associate’s degree at the age of 18.

What followed, I will simply say, was the lowest point of my life. I very quickly met a bad crowd and started to spiral out of my faith and moral decency. I began dating, and very little of it was done properly. I began to struggle with depression and coped with alcohol and impurity. My family situation had been steadily getting worse. My parents refused to separate, but were unable to even have simple conversations without venom and arguments ensuing. They had been living in separate rooms for quite some time and were living as “friends.” Every disagreement had 5 stages:

1. They argue about how the other person was in the wrong

2. They each confide in us separately and explain why the other one was wrong

3. They argue about each other, using the kids as weapons and turning us against each other

4. They texted/emailed us each an explanation of what happened and what they had done/said to the other person, or an apology

5. They confronted each other about reaching out to the kids, and this was usually stage 1 of the next fight (or at least fuel for it)

This has remained the case until even today, when I am 24, still getting texts and emails about their disagreements.

I had begun working soon after I started college at 16 and was soon working two part-time jobs and bought a car. I picked up some work under the table in addition to the two other jobs and began skipping classes for work and to party with friends later that night. Throughout all of this, my parents had devolved into nightmares. Unable to bear the other, they had stopped doing anything together and would really only ever fight when they were forced to interact, yet they refused to separate. My mom had spent most of our lives using us as counselors, sharing too much information and burdening us all with things that she needed to talk to a therapist about. My dad had begun pushing himself into our lives and became overbearing. My older sisters left as soon as they were 18, and I became the “guardian” of my younger siblings. I hated every minute of my life at home and tried my hardest not to blame my younger sisters for it. I wanted more than anything to just leave, to even live out of my car rather than continue where I was.

Each of the older kids knew deep down that this was not going to be reconciled. We had lost hope and were in the emotional fetal position for most of our lives already. I began to recognize that my behaviors were building up to something which was going to wreck my life and after a particularly close call with law enforcement, I decided I needed to get away from my life. I needed to get away.

I remember one day specifically where my parents had fought most of the prior day, and on the following day (Sunday), they began to audibly shout at each other directly over my 6 or 7-year-old sister. They were arguing and hurling accusations at each other over who got to bring her to Mass with them, and something inside of me snapped. I was so fed up and I yelled at them, telling them neither of them were taking her but instead I would take her to Mass and they needed to work out their shit. I realized right then and there that my sisters desperately needed me, but I also recognized that I was not strong enough for them. I was crushed for the next year, unsure what I should do. I wanted to be strong enough for them and I stretched myself to the breaking point. Until I decided at 18 that I needed to move out, or else I wasn’t sure what would happen. I have wrestled with the guilt I have felt from leaving my younger sisters for years and I continue to do so.

I moved out at 18, within a week of being offered a room in an apartment with a friend of mine. This was without my high school diploma (because I had skipped a full year of classes) and without giving my parents notice beyond a week.

I spent a year collecting myself and working my ass off to be self sufficient. I got promoted at work and became a nutrition coordinator. I began dating and spent a portion of my life considering married life. Constantly feeling unfulfilled, I began volunteering at my parish again and stopped dating to continue discernment of the priesthood. I can only barely touch on the friendships and brotherhoods I’ve had over the years. A lot of mistakes and dysfunction, mostly borne out of my lack of boundaries and out of my personal issues. I spent that time getting my porn use under control. By the time I was 23, I recognized the need to take control of my education. I went back to a High School+ program and began taking classes while working full time and volunteering at the Church. I decided the HS+ classes were taking too long and got my GED. Immediately after, I started taking college classes again to complete my Associate’s.

About 2-3 years ago, while hanging out with my sister, she broke down and began crying when I asked her how she was. Ultimately, it turned out to be my mom and dad causing her severe anxiety. She could not control her emotions in public and found herself breaking down in public and in front of friends. Now they refuse to separate but are incapable of living harmoniously together. My mom is “suffering” through this for the family and they both are scared of losing the family if they separate, so they are mutually holding each other hostage. This created an awful environment for my youngest sister, who was now living alone at home without any of my other siblings (AKA, no buffer or immediate support). The condo I was renting from a friend was not going to be available in 3 months so I decided to move into my folks’ place for a year leading into the seminary.

This was prefaced by sitting down with my parents and telling them they needed to stop fighting in front of my youngest sister. I had my older sister take the youngest for the night and invited myself over for dinner. I sat down with them and convinced them of hurting their daughter, informing them that she felt isolated and alone, suffering through everything they were blind to. Fighting had become such a routine thing for them, they had no shame in subjecting their daughter to their fighting.

I also informed them that I would be buying my sister a phone and paying for the plan so that she was not sitting alone in her room, crying over our parents fighting in the other room. This phone was something that they would not be able to take away from her, as it was because of them and it would remain under my control. I also told them that I would move in for the remaining year before seminary. I was doing this to be there for her when I could and to essentially (while it was never verbalized) parent them.

HOW HIS FAMILY LIFE IMPACTED HIM

I have spent some time working through this all and discerning, and I have realized that while the past six years have produced fruit, ultimately they were nothing more than actual avoidance of God’s Will in my life. That morning when my sister was sobbing in my car because she couldn’t stand it anymore was too much for me. I saw her struggling through everything that I had dealt with and something inside me broke. Because of this, I have been dealing with a lot of emotions over the past year that I had become quite adept at avoiding, and have been a bit of a mess at times as I try to navigate these emotions while living in the same house that caused me so much discomfort.

I’ve worked through some things throughout my life and a lot of it hasn’t been easy. It is a continual struggle, but in everything, I want to exemplify the consoling heart of Christ to those I will serve in ministry as a priest. I spent a long time convincing myself that my past and pain made me incapable of being a good priest, but I have come to realize that these are what embolden my soul in ministry. The pain that I have experienced is the fuel for the compassionate love of Christ that I am called to offer others. These trials and tribulations experienced through my family are the same things that I hope to be equipped to handle for others. I want and have a call to be what my own pastor was for me.

I still have an unpleasant relationship with my dad and there was definitely some sour feelings about being named after him throughout my entire life.

I developed OCD tendencies later in life. I was a very messy kid while I was living at home, purposely so at times to stick it to my parents. But when I moved out, I fell into the obsessive need for everything to be in its place. This is something that my mom had been doing throughout most of our teenage years as a coping mechanism. If the house was messy, she would spiral out and have a meltdown at times. Shouting and unable to control her emotions. She was unable to control anything else except the house’s cleanliness and I began to do the same in my late teen years as I was struggling with a sense of helplessness and lack of control.

I utilized many things throughout the years as coping mechanisms or distractions. Notably: porn, alcohol, work, and sweets. I began drinking at 16 with some friends and it quickly became an outlet to forget my issues. Porn has always been a coping mechanism since I was a young kid, and I had no moderation at all as a kid. I was seemingly unable to help myself around sweets, often getting in trouble for stealing desserts. I would put all of my money into candy bars or ice cream as a kid and would often end up eating 2-3 full-sized candy bars in one sitting. I can still recognize this as a coping mechanism as I often find myself listlessly strolling through store aisles and sugar loading whenever I feel off or sad.

I had an unhealthy feeling of responsibility for my family’s well-being, which put my own at risk. I was unable to enjoy my own life because I was so fixated on my family and their issues that I regularly overlooked or allowed their issues to cloud my personal life and progress.

I’ve seen this play out in my relationships and even friendships where there is a real fear that love is something that can be taken away at the slightest inconvenience. I felt the need to check in at the smallest disagreements and problems. Eventually, some friendships became relationships of tense and awkward neediness for validation of love.

I sought conflict or to be contrarian throughout my entire life. Always picking fights and would be willing to stubbornly argue my point till others gave up on me because there is a corrupt sense of comfort in conflict.

FINDING HEALING

I have been working as a youth and young adult minister for the past year, leading into the seminary where I will begin this July. I have been working diligently to adequately deal with my past. But it is an incredibly slow process, as until two years ago, I had been in denial of the pain that I had been feeling. I still find myself fighting to control my emotions over simple things.

I recently went to Seek 2025 and found myself crying in a seat at Joey’s talk. I had tried to find a time to meet him and thank him in person throughout that entire conference, but couldn’t make it work between the shifts at the booth where I was volunteering. However, the last day of the conference, as we were leaving, my boss had ordered an Uber and it ended up being too small for us all to fit, so I volunteered to stay behind and wait for another car. As our ride pulled up, my friend and I were walking to the Uber from our hotel when Joey walked right in front of me to his own ride to the airport. I was struck by the opportunity. Without being able to help myself, I interrupted him loading his bags into the trunk to introduce myself and thank him. I want to echo those thanks once more by saying that Restored’s work is appreciated and truly a source of consolation and inspiration to me.

I had been recommended to read Dr Bob Schutts when I was 16 by my spiritual director and quickly found Jason Evert, before being introduced more recently to Restored and Joey’s work through their collaboration. I have listened, cried, and been moved by many of Restored’s podcasts, as I have been so unable to express any of the thoughts or feelings that I have had to those around me, especially to those people that I am trying not to hurt, but am unable to explain why I acted the way I did. Your podcasts and book have been the explanation for my struggles and weaknesses that I have been unable to voice to those I love and have hurt.

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#151: Even Necessary Divorces Hurt | Brandy

When Brandy was only a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father’s alcoholism. From the outside, her story might seem like a “best case” scenario—she was raised by a courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather. 

But underneath it all, she carried wounds no one could see. She believed perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her. One wound even stayed buried for 20 years. 

In this episode, we explore:

• The shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood—and what it revealed

• Why her marriage should’ve failed statistically—and how she and her husband beat the odds

• And what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear

If you've ever felt pressure to be perfect, feared repeating your parents’ marriage, or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you.

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Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

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#084: Angry at God? Why People from Broken Families Struggle Extra in Their Relationship with Him | Sr. Miriam James Heidland 

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:59)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pannarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate all the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. guest today is Brandy. Brandy currently serves as the executive director of a nonprofit called Chastity Project, a ministry that's dedicated to inspiring teens and young adults to embrace and live out authentic love in the virtue of chastity. Before ministry,

Brandy enjoyed over two decades of leadership in public education. She wore many hats throughout her career, including teacher, instructional coach, assistant principal, principal, and director of communications among others. Brandy earned a bachelor's degree in interdisciplinary studies from Texas A and College Station, followed by a master's degree in education leadership from Texas A ⁓ and Texarkana. She also holds certifications as both a Texas principal and superintendent. And outside of her...

Professional life, Brandy is a devoted wife to her husband Dan and a proud mother to their four children. Now when Brandy was just a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father's alcoholism and from the outside, her story ended up looking like a best case scenario. She was raised by a really courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather. But underneath it all, she carried wounds that no one could see. She believed that perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her and one wound even stayed hidden for 20 years.

And so in this episode, we explore all of that, plus how our wounds from divorce, from abuse, from absent parents certainly shape us, but they don't have to define us. We talk about the shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood for her and what it revealed, how being the good kid can actually be a trauma response and the hidden impact that divorce can have on children, even when it's handled well. We talk about why her marriage should have failed statistically and how she and her husband beat those odds and have built a healthy marriage.

And finally, what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear. I'm really impressed with her mom. And so if you felt pressure to be perfect, you feared repeating your parents' marriage or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. This is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is just to listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, skip the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with

Brandy.

So good to have you here. Welcome to this show.

Brandy (03:21)

Thank you for having me, Joey. I'm excited to be with you today.

Joey (03:24)

I want to dive right in. I'm excited to learn more about your story. I know bits and pieces of it, but to hear it cohesively, I'm really looking forward to. From what you remember, what you were told, what was life like in the months and years before your parents split?

Brandy (03:39)

So my story is, well don't know how unique it is, but unique to most of the kids that I could relate to when I was younger who had experienced divorce. My parents divorced when I was just a couple months old. So I don't have any memories of what was going on at home. So I can only just relate what I was told. My biological father was an alcoholic. He, praise God, has been in recovery for.

a long, time now, but he was an alcoholic. And so, you know, all of the things that come with that late nights out partying and drinking with buddies and ⁓ infidelity and, you know, just all of the emotional really abuse, you know, for my mother that she endured by not having an equal partner in their marriage, somebody that she could depend on and rely on. So it was quite volatile, you know, as I understand it.

And my mother, once I was born, she said she knew immediately, you know, that she could not raise me in that environment, you know, that it was not healthy for me, also not healthy for her to stay. And so she would often pick me up and sort of head out the door and he would be home and she would be explaining to him that she needed to leave. And he would take me from her and say, well, you can leave, but you can't take her. And so of course my mother wasn't going to leave me behind.

So she would stay. you know, and I think that's, you know, probably relatable to a lot of women in situations like that. You know, they have children, have, you know, they may be relying on their partner for income. And so my mom had nothing. I mean, she had no college degree. She, you know, just really didn't have anything. And so she would stay. And then finally, one day, by the grace of God, he came home, as I understand it, and was intoxicated. And she said, I'm going to leave.

And he allowed her to leave. She tells the story that she explained to him in a very calm way that, you know, if he didn't allow us to leave, you know, if he could think through what my life would be like and how I might grow up to hate him because of what he had put us through. And so that was the turning point for him, you know, that he decided, I guess, in that moment that he didn't want that to be the case, that he didn't want me to grow up hating him. And so he allowed us to leave. And so.

You know, while divorce is never a good option for anybody in this case, it was, you know, really probably my mother's only option because he was not willing to, to change. But yeah, was quite volatile.

Joey (06:10)

Okay, yeah, and you're so young and that makes sense that something needed to change, something needed to happen and wow, no, I mean, I can't imagine what your mom went through and that's something I think, yeah, with age and whatever level of maturity I've been able to acquire, I have definitely tried to put myself in my parents shoes more to like understand what they were going through. So that's beautiful you've been able to do that. It sounds like you've had some conversations with your mom.

Brandy (06:33)

Yes. And that's been when we can talk more about this later, but one healing piece for me has been that my mom has always been open to conversations about questions I may have. that's been really good. My mom and I are close.

Joey (06:48)

Yeah, no, that's wonderful. And especially like you said, if it's before your explicit memory, like your cognitive memory develops, then you don't know, you won't be able to pull those images up, but your, your body remembers like you had, went through those experiences. So it's definitely helpful. I found for sure to have someone who's able to, to relay that. And one maybe point here, and I know we could talk later about this. If your parents are unwilling to talk about this, maybe there's someone else in your life who can, I remember learning a lot about just like the family dynamics and my parents' families through

relatives through know aunts and uncles so I think that's a good tip if someone's thinking like well can't have that conversation with mom or I can't have that conversation with dad for one reason or another is anything you would add to that

Brandy (07:27)

Yeah, no, I think that's really important. As a former educator, I mean, I for sure tried to make sure that I was speaking into the lives of children who might have been, you know, going through the same things and felt like that was one way that God could use me in that career, you know, and had a number of conversations with kids when they would, you know, be upset about something going on in their family with regard to divorce or parents fighting.

You know, and tried to just listen, but then relate to them that you're not the only one and we could talk about it and I would share my story or, whatever bit of my story was appropriate. So I do think that's really important for kids of any age. mean, even into your adult years, you know, being able to talk about the things that happened. That's huge.

Joey (08:13)

Huge. Yeah, because when you bottle it up, it doesn't lead to great things, which we could talk more later about. But I'm curious as a principal, as an educator, like you said, what did you observe in the young people you were leading who did come from like divorced or dysfunctional families, like highly dysfunctional families? And yeah, were there any kind of go-to tactics in addition to what you mentioned of like having conversation, offering empathy that you would use?

Brandy (08:35)

Yeah,

well, I would say this, you know, and I think you've talked about this on the podcast quite often. Maybe one misconception is that if the divorce feels more amiable, you know, between the two parents and maybe it was a low conflict situation. So I think the misconception that comes along with that is that the kids don't really suffer, you know, that they'll be fine. And I think most people probably would have thought that about me because I was so young. she'll be fine. She doesn't, you know, there's, there's no

real trauma from this. But I think that's important for adults to just remember that it does always affect children, always, know, regardless of even in a situation like mine where it's really for the good of the family, you know, when there's abuse or something involved, it still, you know, leaves kids with questions in their minds about who they are and what part of it they played. so

I think, just being open to discuss things with children is really important. And then the other thing that I think is really important for parents to remember, if I could just give advice to parents, and that's just not to use your kids as a pawn in a divorce situation, because I've seen that time and time again, where the kids are sort of caught in the middle of it all and trying to sort of be the adult in this situation, and that does not serve children well in any way, shape, or form.

I mean, I often just would be frustrated wanting to tell parents like grow up and be the adult, you know, you've made your choices, but now you've, you know, you've got to be sensitive to your children's needs. So that's really important. But yeah, just having, you know, making sure that every kid has a relationship with a caring adult is huge.

Joey (10:14)

⁓ That is huge. Were there any trends that you've seen? I know you've listened to and seen research on this, I'm curious if there are any anecdotal stories or just trends you notice with the young people that you were serving who came from what we call broken families compared to the kids who came from healthier intact families.

Brandy (10:34)

I mean, the kids who came from intact families and families who, I mean, sometimes families can be intact, but then things are not good at home. but kids who came from, you know, really strong families, ⁓ where both mom and dad were really involved and helpful to the children and had good relationships with the kids.

Those are the kids who really excel. They don't struggle to build relationships with others. That attachment theory comes into play and they have the proper, they know how to attach properly to the proper people. I think kids who come from broken families are in large part in danger of seeking relationships that are not healthy for them. Whether that be that they are more at risk for abuse when they're younger or

even when they're older, know, seeking out relationships that are not healthy because they don't have not had that good experience with what a healthy relationship looks like. So, I mean, I think there's just all kinds of dangers, if you will, you know, for kids who come from broken families. And again, that's why it's really important for the adults in their lives, you know, to really be cognizant of that, you know, and do the right thing by the children as much as you possibly can.

Joey (11:49)

Yeah, I know I couldn't agree more and it often requires looking beyond your own pain, but without going further into all of that, and thank you for weighing in kind of from that role as like a principal. I'm curious, so you mentioned you were just months old when your parents split and then how old are you now just for the context for everyone. If you're okay.

Brandy (12:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 48, almost 50 inching towards 50.

Joey (12:10)

Nice. Okay. I don't, don't think I'm supposed to ask a woman how old she is, but we have to end the podcast. And then, ⁓ so obviously you didn't really learn. couldn't have learned about the divorce separation and divorce when you were younger, but do you remember maybe having conversations with your mom or even your dad as you got older and kind of understanding what was happening and what family life was like in a divorce situation?

Brandy (12:32)

So my mom, think I said this was really good to always be open to conversation around any questions I had, which was great. So from my earliest memories, I can remember having conversations with her. Now my biological, and I keep saying biological father because my mom later remarried and I have a fabulous stepfather that I don't even really consider my stepfather. And I've always just called him dad. So, but my biological father was in my life to the extent he could be. He had visitation. So,

You know, there would be conversations with my mom around that, you know, when I was going to go with my dad and, you know, what we were going to do and those sorts of things. I don't know how young I was when my mom explained, you know, his alcoholism and all of that. But I remember from a very young age, I have this really concrete memory of being on the playground at my elementary school. I could.

close my eyes and still be there. And looking at my friends who had intact families, and even though I at that point was in a really good situation with my mom having remarried, I still wondered what would it be like to have, you know, your mom and dad, your biological parents married. And I remember just looking at different friends and thinking about, you know, what I would see in their homes.

and what that might be like, know, almost fantasizing about it. But like I said, my mom was always really good to have open conversations with me if I had questions. And I'll tell you one thing she did that was so powerful. She went to visit a psychologist when they divorced to ask for advice on like, you know, what do I say to her? ⁓ My mother really, she would tell you if she were here, ⁓ she didn't really want me to be around my dad. ⁓ You know, she was fearful of what that might bring and what I might see and be exposed to.

But the psychologist gave her really good advice, or at least I think it was really good advice. And that was to never say anything negative about my dad, to let me discover anything that I might need to discover on my own. I mean, obviously in a safe way, you wouldn't want to put a child in an unsafe situation. And so I remember from a very early age, there would be situations where he would take me for the weekend and it wasn't anything bad. It wasn't a bad situation, but he was just very different.

You know, I would feel uncomfortable and not myself in whatever situation that we were in visiting friends or, know, or what have you. And, still my mom persisted, even when I would come home and I might have, you know, complaints, if you will, about whatever went on over the weekend. My mom never said anything negative about my dad. And she would continue to say, you have all the best parts of him. And she would point out, yeah, it's beautiful. She would point out, makes me emotional.

She would point out like things like I was a very studious child and she never really was all that studious, but my dad was. And so she would point out things like that and say, see, that's from your dad. You got all his best parts. And so, I mean, that was just a beautiful, no healing experience, I think. And I didn't even recognize, you know, at the time what was going on, but that was obviously, you know, really a positive piece that she employed.

Joey (15:37)

love that because as you know so often parents can fall into you know saying things like you're just like your father you're just like your mother and getting into those like spats which you know I've seen time and time again I'm in and out of my family and with the young people we work with and yeah so I think that's like a really beautiful tactic to actually call out the good while I really really like that and I hope we can if that's okay with you we will use that moving forward but ⁓ for sure yeah no okay so good I'm curious like with the visitation and again I love that

tactic to have your mom like without putting you in danger letting you kind of discover for yourself that makes so much sense to me yeah I'm curious what visitation was like for you to what from what you remember did it continue on as usual what was that like because as you know everyone listening has been through something like that so I'm curious what the experience like that was

Brandy (16:25)

So, my mom and stepfather had primary custody and my dad just had visitation. And when I was, until I was about six, I believe, he lived in my hometown. so visitation was very easy and he would just come and get me for the weekend. And now, of course, this was after he sobered up, you know, he, didn't allow him to take me, you know, when he was drinking. But so I think I was probably, I think I saw him off and on when I was very, very small.

But probably at my grandparents' his parents were just some of my favorite people. have really good memories of his parents. Even though his father was an alcoholic, and that of course contributed to his own alcoholism, my grandmother was just what I would say. I she was a saint. And so I loved being at their house. So I think I spent probably a lot of time at their house for visitation, which was great. My mom totally trusted my grandparents. I don't think at this point my grandfather must not have been drinking or she wouldn't have... ⁓

you know, allowed me to go. But my grandparents were wonderful and so we would go there a lot. So there were happy memories of visitation there. But then often we would be, you know, at his apartment and, know, with his friends and things like that. And I just never felt really all that comfortable, sadly. My dad was, I also have really vivid memories of him being really hypercritical of things. And so, you know, where my mom was always really positive about him, my dad would say things like,

your nails are filthy, why doesn't your mother clean your nails? And my nails were not filthy. My mother took very good care of me, you know. And so he was always a little more critical of me, of my mother. And so I think that also probably, you know, made things more uncomfortable. So that continued until I was about six and my grandparents passed away within just, I think it was probably a couple of months of each other. And so at that point, my dad moved away. And so then visitation became a little more infrequent. And I guess I would say,

And I certainly don't say this to be judgmental of my dad. I think I want to preface with just saying, he came from a broken family as well. And I think he did the best he knew how to do. He just never really found a lot of healing, unfortunately. But I would say he would often jump in and want to be kind of ⁓ a father when it was really convenient. And so he would want to come and maybe get me for two weeks to spend some time with him in the summer.

And then he would make big promises, you know, about, we're going to stay in touch or what have you, you know, and then, and then that would fall by the wayside. And that's really continued even today. I am still in touch with him, but he doesn't live anywhere near me. And he even today will make a big promise about wanting to like, you know, have regular phone calls or whatever. And then he just can't, you know, he just can't commit to it.

just think that's all from his own brokenness, you know, and I just don't hold that against him anymore. There's just been a lot of healing there, praise God.

Joey (19:19)

Yeah, I that's beautiful. I'd love to talk more about that. Well, thanks for going into the visitation stuff. I wanted to talk a little bit about this kind of pattern that you recognize at some point with, you know, okay, alcoholism runs in the family, brokenness runs in the family. Was that a big fear of yours? I'm sure we'll get into this further, but is that something you feared the alcoholism repeating the brokenness disorder?

Brandy (19:38)

Yeah. So I think a huge part of my brokenness from the wounding was this tendency to perfectionism. So I always was quite a bit of a rule follower anyway, but always seeing like performance equals love. And I think a lot of that came from the fact that my dad would come around for things like my dance recital because he wanted to tell all of his friends, that's my daughter on the stage.

I'm inside think I saw that so there was this perfectionism so I was always a rule follower but in high school I never took a sip of alcohol because I was terrified I mean just totally terrified that if I took even one step you know that I might also be an alcoholic so it played a huge part and maybe that was a good thing that I didn't drink in high school but but also I don't think staying away from alcohol because of that fear is healthy either.

Joey (20:31)

Fair enough. No, that totally makes sense. Yeah, no, and I think that's probably one of the biggest like felt pains and fears that our audience experiences is just like, I don't want to become like my parents or I don't want to like fall into the same vices or I don't want to, you know, just repeat the relationships that they had. And so definitely I'm excited to talk more about that when we get into relationships a little bit more. I am curious if there's anything else you would add about, yeah, just, guess life.

as a kid growing up in that environment. We've already covered it quite thoroughly, but I'm just curious if there's anything else that you would add.

Brandy (21:04)

just more, maybe add a little bit about my stepfather, you know, because that was also very healing to have a father figure. So he, stepped in when I was also very young. I don't have any recollection really of life before him and just never, I mean, I never felt like a stepdaughter ever, ever, and have two siblings from, you know, that marriage. And they never felt like step siblings to me. I mean, we've never.

referred to each other in that way. And so that was really healing too. And I think I've shared this with you just briefly before, but I think this is important to share because obviously the goal of the podcast is to help somebody out there who may be going through the same thing. So ⁓ had this great relationship with my stepfather and his father though was also funny enough an alcoholic. So there was a lot of dysfunction in his family as well.

course I didn't, you know, wasn't cognizant of that as a child, but later, I think I was probably around four, there was some abuse by my step grandfather. And I decided, I remember being very aware of what he was trying to do. My mom had always talked to me about, you know, dangers with, you know, with other people. Mainly, I think she was afraid of like who my father might take me around. And so I was very aware of, you know, of like, you've got to tell somebody.

Thank goodness. And ⁓ so I remember thinking when he went to, when that first happened that I needed to tell somebody. And I remember wanting so badly to tell my mother, but this is a product of divorce. My mother had already been divorced once. And because this was my step-grandfather, step-grandfather, I was afraid. I remember thinking this so vividly. I was afraid that if I told.

My mother would take my side. I had no question that she would believe me and would handle the situation the way that it needed to be handled. But I wasn't sure that my step father would believe me. And so I kept that quiet until I was an adult. And, and so because of that, then he was allowed to abuse other people, you know, because nobody, nobody knew, nobody put a stop to things. And so as an adult, those memories were repressed until I had my own children.

And I remember when those memories started to surface, I remember telling my husband, Dan, I'm not sure that I, like I woke up from a dream and I thought, was that a dream or was this real? But I knew in my soul, it was real. And so about that same time, some other abuse victims were coming forward and this was starting to surface and my mother knew about it, but she didn't know that I had been abused.

And so there's a, ⁓ I won't go into details about the story about how it all came together because it's really not relevant, but it's just the Holy Spirit, you know, planting all of that at the right time so that all of the stories, you know, came together at the right time and were able to be addressed and we were able to go through some family counseling and have a lot of healing around that. But again, I think when I think about my parents' divorce, I think a lot of people thought, one, I was so young that there would not be repercussions.

And two, I had this wonderful stepfather, you know, and no memory of life before him, without him. And so I think most people would have dismissed it and said, well, she's just a really resilient child. There's no, you know, no reason to worry about, you know, whatever the repercussions of the divorce would be for her. And here I was abused and there's a repercussion of the divorce, I'm afraid to tell. And so I think that's really important too for adults to remember that it doesn't matter.

you know what the story is there are always repercussions you that children have wounds from that divorce and so it's just important to remember that and be sensitive to that.

Joey (25:01)

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so openly. Just to maybe give people the context, so remind me how old were you when that happened and then how old were you when it came out?

Brandy (25:49)

So I was about four, think, I'm thinking and remembering it correctly, about four when it happened. And then, and I was really fortunate. It wasn't consistent. It happened one time and, you know, praise Jesus for that. But, but like I said, the abuse continued with other victims after that. And I was, let's see, let me think how long being that John was about our oldest son was about two. So I was probably 24.

You know, so like 20 years later when it came out, 20, yeah, 23, 24. Okay. Yeah. Never had one thought of it before. Yeah. That morning that I woke up from the dream and had the conversation with my husband.

Joey (26:31)

I know you were so young and it's so fascinating how the mind of like a little girl or you know, a little boy could reason to that level of like, don't want to share this with mom because I'm afraid that the divorce will happen again. You know, we'd go through that all again. Man, it just breaks your heart to think of that. And even as good of a job as your mom had done to like make sure, you know, she had open communication with you. So it's definitely, I think a wake up call.

to parents, to everyone that this is a serious thing that has repercussions that maybe are hidden that you can't really put your finger on.

Brandy (27:04)

And sometimes I think too, Joey, you know, because I was on the outside appeared to be a really resilient child, which really was because of this perfectionism. So I was a high performer in school, you know, my grades were always good. I made friends, you know, with other children easily. So there wouldn't have been those telltale signs that there would have been any distress. You know, most people would have just moved on to it. You know, they would have wouldn't have worried about me.

And so I think that's just, yeah, I mean, it just, yeah, a wake up call to adults who are involved with kids in any way, whether you're a mom and dad or, know, grandparents or aunt and uncle, you know, if you love children and they've been through any kind of trauma, yeah, it's important to have your eyes on them at all times and look for maybe even things that are not your telltale signs, you know, and have open conversations for sure.

Joey (27:55)

No, I love that. And I think that's one thing that I noticed in myself and my siblings, like we became really good at like hiding things and, know, sometimes out of self preservation protection, other times, just like you had mentioned not to like rock the boat and keep things as peaceful as they could be. ⁓ so I do think you need to, know, obviously have the good relationship to where if they want to talk to they will, but also maybe probe a little bit and ask questions that can kind of get to that. So I know we're, ⁓ I know we're talking decent amount about parents, but I think this is helpful.

overall, especially because we have people listening who like one day want to be parents or maybe they are new parents and they come from a broken family and they can, you know, perhaps apply some of this even if they themselves are growing like a really beautiful marriage and family and so because these principles apply I think across the board.

Brandy (28:40)

Absolutely, you know and I would just say too or if even if you're not in the place You know at this point to be married, you know, maybe that's still a goal in the future But you know if you have hidden things even that, know, like I said 23 24, you know, you can't really heal unless you bring things to the light and And so, you know, I can't imagine now, you know 24 years later if that was still hidden, you know There would have been a lot of missed opportunities for healing and I can't say

where I would be, know, where the other victims might be. You know, while it was hard to talk about that, it was important, you know, really important to talk about it and to bring it to the light. So I would just say, like you said, you know, sometimes children of divorce learn to hide things really well for whatever reason. But even if, you know, you are 24 years old, it's not too late to bring that out into the light and talk about it, you know, with somebody who loves you and cares about you and can help you heal.

Joey (29:37)

Love that. No, that's such a good principle of healing that, you like you said, bringing it into the light and then also, you know, don't be afraid to kind of have those difficult conversations or say the things that are uncomfortable. I heard someone say that, that like you're usually like one difficult conversation away from like some incredible healing and growth, one conversation away from, you know, leveling up to whatever that might look like in whatever area of life. And I think it's our unwillingness often to have those, to push through the discomfort and, you know, just be courageous in those situations that often.

keep us stuck and hold us back. So I love everything you said there. Thank you for going into that. I'm curious, you you mentioned perfectionism. You mentioned, yeah, just not wanting to rock the boat. I'm curious if there were any other ways in which kind of you were affected. And especially if you notice like, when did you have an awareness that there were these things in your life that you went through that came from a broken family, you went through all this dysfunction. There are other things that happened like you shared. Did you kind of come to this awareness you mentioned on the playground, but I'm curious if there was anything else.

Brandy (30:33)

I think, you know, just having those thoughts off and on, you know, as a child and then as a growing, you know, adolescent and then teen, just sort of longing for what would that be like. But, you know, as you grow and you get busy and you, you know, you get involved in different things, I think I was probably less aware or less concerned, maybe if you will. But I didn't recognize, you know, really what it was doing in my life. Like I didn't.

the perfectionism and this need to always be a peacemaker. I didn't really see that as a negative in any way when I was well, because it was praised, you know? It was always praised. And so I didn't see that as a result of trauma really until I was an adult and I had my first child. So really kind of about the same time that all of the other, you know, was coming to light, I was really starting – know, the Holy Spirit was really starting to

do some healing work, I think, in my soul by just slowly, bit by bit, bringing some of those things to light with me and just helping me see those things as woundedness so that you can heal from them. I would say it was becoming a mother. Wow. And then watching my husband be he's a fantastic dad. And here we've been married for, gosh, almost 27 years.

seeing like, ⁓ this is what, you know, a functioning intact family looks like and watching him be a father. I think that brought back a lot of the wound or brought up a lot of woundedness in me. And so yeah, it was in my adult years, you know, when I really started to see those things as woundedness. And I would say in my teen years too, ⁓ and then like early adult years dating, I didn't see this as a piece of my woundedness then, but I do now.

You know, this idea that I was always searching for male approval, you know, so my identity was always wrapped up in who I was dating, you know, how serious the relationship was. Um, I mean, I can look back and just see that as a trend, you know, from about age 15, maybe even younger on, know, yeah. Yeah.

Joey (32:49)

No, that makes so much sense. And I can relate on the opposite end of like seeking female approval. So yeah, I think that's a common struggle and thanks for sharing that. No, everything you're sharing just makes so much sense. I am curious if there were any emotional problems you struggled with or bad habits that you wanted to share in a little bit. We'll talk about relationships, but yeah, any emotional problems, bad habits.

Brandy (33:09)

The habit would be that, I think, jumping from relationship to relationship, you know, and just seeking approval in that regard and wrapping my identity, you know, in my relationships. That for sure became a really repetitive habit of mine. And that's probably, you know, that was probably the most destructive thing that I did, you know, as a result.

Joey (33:33)

No, that makes sense. I think it points to, think probably a lot of your mom's influence on you because one of the things that we have often shared on the show is that if you have a good relationship with one or both of your parents amidst these really rough situations of divorce and just high degrees of dysfunction in the family, there's a good chance that you're going to be able to cope pretty well with it. And so that's really beautiful. mean, your life could have looked very different. And so it's amazing that... ⁓

Brandy (33:58)

thought about that. Like what would life have looked like if she had not had the courage to walk away or even when she walked away if my stepfather had not come into the picture, you know, what would our life have looked like and it would have been vastly different, vastly different, know. So yeah.

Joey (34:16)

Yeah, no, and even just the ongoing like relationship and parenting that she provided you, it's just beautiful. And even on the step family, step parents side, that's such a mixed bag for a lot of people. A lot of people's experience of step parents isn't very good, if we're honest. And so it's really beautiful you have that. And not to, I don't mean to throw any step parents under the bus, there are some very good ones like you experienced, especially if you're listening right now. Thank you for being a good one.

But yeah, so that is so interesting. I guess if, is there any lessons or advice that you've learned when it comes to kind of navigating step family, step parents? I know you were so young, like you said, so it kind of felt like there wasn't a step family going on there. But I'm just curious if there's any lessons to someone listening right now that you'd want to pass along who's maybe dealing with a step mom, step dad, step sibling, step family situation.

Brandy (35:03)

I haven't really thought about that. I think it's just really important from the adult perspective to just work well together for the children's sake. I think honoring as much as you can what the children's desires are. I mean, I know when they're little, it's hard for them to know what's best for them. But I think being flexible with visitation and just avoiding as much bickering and fighting as possible from the adult perspective. For a kiddo,

I think, know, as much as possible, you know, if you can look for the good, and I think that's true in a lot of situations, negative situations, you know, if we look for the good, often we can find it, you know, even from really dark places, you know, maybe just being open to finding some good, even if the relationship with your step family is difficult, you know, just trying as much as possible. But then I also think.

If it's an unhealthy relationship, you know, when you're old enough, you know, you have to set some boundaries. I think that's really important. You know, you're not made to be a doormat either, you know, so.

Joey (36:12)

Yeah, that's good. No. And I'm going to put it on the spot with that, that's great advice of like setting the boundaries, especially once you have like more independence and obviously always set boundaries. But when you're younger, it can be hard. But once you have that independence, I totally agree. And in some cases that means, you know, I never a huge proponent of this because I think there's a lot of healing and growth and forgiveness that can happen. But if you, you know, if it's so toxic and you need to cut them out of your life, maybe that's the case. But in most situations, I think there's the

possibility of working towards rebuilding and, you know, at least slowly step by step growing a better relationship. But I love that advice about the boundaries. And then also you made me think of just this whole principle of in life, in every relationship, like whatever we praise and other people will almost always get repeated. And so I think there's something really good and beautiful about that of like praising the good things that we see, even if there's like a lot of bad, like praising the good and then hopefully that, you know, they'll become more and more like that good person that you're making them out to be in the book.

how to win friends and influence people. Dale Carnegie talks about that, about how it's really one of the powerful tactics of like influence is giving people a reputation to live up to. And so if you, you know, kind of pull out those good qualities, those virtues, and you, know, and without being dishonest, you kind of paint this portrait of like, that's your true identity, that's who you are, then typically, especially if you're in a position of influence,

that will motivate them more to stay true to that, to be consistent with that image that's being portrayed of them. So I think that those are really beautiful lessons and thanks for talking about your stuff, family. Before we move on, anything you'd add?

Brandy (37:38)

No, I would just say you're, I mean, you're so spot on about the words we speak over people. Gosh, I often would talk to my teachers, you know, about that. I mean, and I think that's true if you have any influence on anybody, you know, whether it be a child or an adult, you know, speaking, like you said, honest words of affirmation, not the corny stuff that's, you know, that's not true, but really speaking the words of affirmation and calling them to be their best self.

is very, very powerful.

Joey (38:10)

I love that. I was having that conversation with my dad recently. It was a text exchange and we were talking a little bit about the past and thought going too into it. That was like kind of a situation like we're describing where I was able to kind of affirm him in some of the things that he did right. And obviously there was a lot of brokenness and things that didn't go right. But I think there's something good about that being able to kind of pull that out. And again, not shying away from maybe having the difficult conversations because we did talk about that too. But, ⁓ and we have had conversations like that, but I think there is a lot of beauty to pull out the good. So super good. Thank you for.

going into all that and yeah, that book, if anyone's interested, How to Win Friends and Influence, people will teach you a lot about it. And one of the things I think he says in that book too, just to your point, is when you give compliments, when you affirm people, the more specific, the better. General compliments don't typically land super well with people and you always want them to be sincere. You never want to flatter. And so I think those are like great principles as well to whether you're dealing with a stepfather, stepmother, you know, or...

Anyone in your life, think those are good principles across the board. I want to talk a little bit more about relationships. So you mentioned kind of this, I don't know if we'd call it a relationship addiction. Like you were jumping kind of, you know, compulsion, whatever from relationship to relationship. Was there anything else like in your relationships in which ways in which you struggled or yeah, just anything you eventually had to outgrow, whether it's in your teen years or as a young adult.

Brandy (39:27)

Maybe I would just talk more about like wrapping your identity in that. Sure. ⁓ because, that was something, gosh, I would say probably wasn't all that long ago. mean, really relatively short time period ago in my adult years, you know, when I really recognized what that was, you know, and, and I know that our whole audience is not necessarily Christian or Catholic, but I am. And so my identity, you know, understanding that my identity comes from Christ.

and who I am in Christ and not from who I'm dating or, you know, or even gosh, wrapping my identity in what I do or who I'm married to or, who my children become. Because that can really become a nasty pattern. ⁓ And it really did for me because once I was married and secure in my marriage, well, then it was, you know, like, my identity is in my job or, you know, identity in my children and how well they perform. And so I think that.

was tough, know, because it does become sort of a habit and it becomes, you know, just a repeatable thing that you just sort of, you once you leave it behind in one thing, you know, you just go searching for it somewhere else, you know, and so I think that's really important, you know, just you got to know who you are independent of all of those things, you know, who are you at your most authentic self and that's hard. I mean, that's a really hard question to answer, but you kind of have to get outside of all the noise, I think, to figure that out.

So for me, that was a very spiritual experience, you know, might not be for somebody else, but for me, it definitely meant, you know, really growing in my relationship with Christ to figure out who am I.

Joey (41:05)

Beautiful. Okay. And it was through getting to know God better building that relationship that you got to know who you were.

Brandy (41:12)

Yeah, for sure. Lots of prayer, lots of scripture. And I think too, Joey, because of, you know, that there's a lot of deep father wounds there for me. I think that's another reason why growing in my faith, you know, the Holy Spirit was so gracious to take that really slow with me and to allow me to develop in my relationship, my identity to God as my father in a really slow, easy pace.

Because that's hard. mean, when you don't, even though I had this great relationship with my stepfather, still do, and he's fabulous, there's still a wound there, a father wound there that, you know, your biological father failed you in so many ways. And so how do you relate to God as a father? Again, that took, you know, a lot of years in my adulthood to figure that out.

Joey (42:05)

sure and I think a lot of people listening right now feel the same and was there, like you said it was gradual but I'm trying to understand was there anything that maybe you haven't mentioned so far that was really pivotal to kind of overcoming maybe any barriers or resistance to that relationship with God as a father because it is a really hard thing. I definitely struggled with that myself and still do to some extent but haven't made a lot of progress like you as well. So yeah, I'm curious if there's any like

pivotal moment or anything in particular that helped you make that shift. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face.

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Brandy (43:39)

I think probably a lot of the shift happened when I was able to forgive my dad for, you know, his shortcomings. And that came about just in lots of prayer, scripture. I have a fantastic spiritual director. I've had fantastic priests come into my life, you know, that I've been able to counsel with. I've had some counseling, probably not as much as I could benefit from, but some. And

So my mother actually told me this story and it was actually, her mother was very staunch Irish Catholic and my mom's father died when she was six. So my grandmother raised eight children by herself. So she had to be tough, know, had to be tough. And my mom grew up kind of feeling like her mother, my grandmother was a little bit blind emotionally. So she had a counselor one time say, if your mother was blind, would you still love her? And my mother said, well, of course.

And she said, well, she is, she's a little bit emotionally blind, you know, to your knees. And so that was really healing for my mother. And she shared, happened to share that story with me. And I think that was really important to being able to forgive my father because I just recognized that, you know, he's coming from lots of woundedness as well. I have not, I could be wrong. I don't want to judge his relationship with Christ in any way, but I don't think he's church going or, I don't think he has that spiritual component so much.

lean on like I did. So don't think there's been a lot of counseling and things like that. So I don't know how much healing he's done. So I would just say, you know, I just don't hold him accountable for that anymore. I did, but I don't because I think he did the best he could do, you know, with what he knew, what he had known his whole life. ⁓ And I've watched him jump from relationship to relationship. And so I just think, you know, there's just a lot missing for him. And so I think

My ability to relate to God as Father really changed when I was able to forgive my own Father, you know, for the woundedness that He caused.

Joey (45:38)

That's really good and yeah, no, I could definitely see how that would help so much. I'm curious, was there a particular moment, like what was that process of forgiveness like for you in particular if we can get a little bit more granular? Like, you know, when did you become aware that this would be a good idea? Were there certain steps you took? Was it something that was kind of like you made this declarative statement of like, I forgive you and then you've, I don't know. Yeah, but talk me through all that.

Brandy (46:00)

So I think the process really started again, going back to when I became a mother, like I've talked about, you know, with and watching my husband be this incredible father. So somewhere in there, I began to have a desire, you know, to forgive him. And I would just say this about forgiveness, because I know that's hard. That's hard when somebody has caused you a lot of pain. Forgiveness, though, is really, I mean, while obviously it's helpful to the other person, I feel like forgiveness is so good for the person that's

holding all the pain because it allows you to release all of that, you know, and let go of it. And so I would just say, you know, like, if you don't do it for the other person's sake, you know, work through that process for your own sake. But my process really started when I became a mother. And then just slowly after that, yeah, there were, ⁓ I've actually written him. I didn't feel like I could say it to his face for whatever reason that was hard. So I've actually written him and told him, I forgive you for everything.

And so yes, there were declarative statements like that. And then also just after that, I would just say forgiveness is really an ongoing process, especially when the wounds are really, really deep. you know, those wounds rear their ugly head every once in a while. And you just have to be willing to say at that point, okay, I'm feeling this way. You know, if you are spiritual, taking that to the Lord.

and letting him help you work through that, sharing it all with him because he's ultimately the healer. And then just working through that process maybe again, and it can be really painful, but just reminding yourself, okay, ⁓ I have forgiven him once. Maybe there's some ongoing pain. Maybe there's some things that I still need to forgive and just continuing to work through that process. So I think it's important to view it not from a one and done kind of thing, because it's...

It's really not that at all. And it really is an ongoing process. And there have been memories then, you know, that would come up and cause some pain again. And so then I just have to stop and, kind of process through those things. ⁓ but yeah.

Joey (48:03)

Okay, yeah, no, couldn't agree more with that's been my experience too with forgiveness. It's certainly like a messy process. think there's, I've talked on the show about some different advice from great wise mentors. And yeah, I think like you said, the definition I've kind of worked with of forgiveness is like, it's this ongoing decision to release someone of a debt that they, feel they owe you because of a wrong they committed against you. And kind of in that kind of rough definition is like ongoing, like you said, it's not one and done decision, meaning it's not a feeling.

We can get confused about it thinking that one day when I feel it, I'll forgive them. Not that you need to force forgiveness, but I think it's certainly more of a decision than it is an emotion. Though there is, like you said, a lot of freedom that can come from it, but that's a byproduct. not what comes first. then, yeah, and then just like when it comes to the justice component of it, I think often people are worried about letting people off the hook or, yeah, I don't know, kind of making perhaps maybe that forgiveness is allowing them to like get away from, get away with it and not...

you know, maybe be corrected or something like that, which definitely is a longer conversation. But I think there is a lot of beauty, especially if there's no harm being done further that needs to be stopped. Cause in that situation would say, yeah, no, there certainly should be that sort of justice. But yeah, think there's something really good and beautiful about looking at forgiveness and mercy, which is it's rooted in as like going beyond justice. We're surpassing justice. going beyond it. We're not like neglecting it because we have the right to maybe hurt this person back. We have the right to enforce, you know, whatever justice is due, but

But going beyond it is certainly being the better person being, you know, it requires so much strength and virtue. It's not a weakness. It's not something that's like, you know, I'm gonna let you off the hook. It's no, I'm using all the strength within me to not, you know, seek revenge.

Brandy (49:46)

And I have to say not that I want my dad to suffer. I don't. think, I mean, that's the very definition of love, know, willing the good of the other. definitely, I mean, I want him to heal. I want him to feel released from all of that for sure. But as far as justice goes and, you know, thinking about that, I can only imagine his pain, honestly, because he's missed out on

You know, watching my family grow, getting to know my family, getting to know my kids, you know, those are his grandkids and he doesn't know them. And so as far as justice goes, I am sure that he has suffered, you know, because of his choices. I have no doubt that he has. And I hope that, you know, that he can let that go and feel that release and not continue to suffer.

Joey (50:35)

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during this time, but most of all, the guide helps you feel competent and confident in offering help. And so get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash 10 tips, restoredministry.com slash 10 tips, either the number or the letters, or just click on the link in the show notes. Yeah, no, that's beautiful. And that's so merciful of you too, because like we were saying, I guess another definition of forgiveness could be kind of giving up our right to some form of revenge or some form of like getting that person back when they hurt us.

Yeah, I mean, we just naturally as humans want that. So I think that's really good. And it's really fascinating, like, obviously, you know, speaking to especially our Catholic audience, we would say that, you know, we do believe that in the end, after, in, you know, in the afterlife and eternity, after the world ends, like there will be an accounting for all the good and the bad. So justice will be served. Should it be served on earth? Yes, yes, absolutely. Justice should be served on earth. But we know especially that that's going to happen in the end. That's what we believe as Catholics. And so I think that often will, it's perhaps a little bit easier to

know, give forgiveness in that situation, like let go of like, okay, I'm gonna let go of this revenge I met Juan or this vindictive feeling or emotion. And then the point you made, which is also so true that so often the dysfunction, the bad decisions, the bad habits are punishments in themselves. The misery that they lead to like truly is horrible and a form of, I guess we could say a form of justice.

Brandy (52:21)

Yeah, because, you know, forgiveness can be there, you know, but we're never free from the consequences of our decisions. I mean, the consequences are there. I mean, so, you know, good or bad.

Joey (52:32)

Right. Yeah, there are certainly punishments in themselves in some ways, but it's so good. know with the little time we have left, I'm curious, you shared a lot so far, but I'm curious if you would add anything additional when it came to healing. Like what else did you do? What else was really like helpful when it came to bringing healing and restoration? I'm holding this into your life.

Brandy (52:50)

So again, the Holy Spirit's timing is amazing. A couple years back, we were just going through some other hard things in our family and had a very wise, well, two very wise priests who visited with Dan and I and really spoke into our lives and gave us some really good tools. And they thought this one particular priest is still our priest. He thought he was giving me this tool.

to me through the current situation, you know, but he had no idea how much it would help in healing in this situation. And that was the Restore the Glory podcast with, you know, Dr. Bob and Jay Kim. And from that, I found the Abiding Together podcast. So I'm a little bit of a podcast junkie. that's how I found your podcast initially. So, but I found a lot of healing through both of those podcasts and then a lot of what

Dr. Bob Schuetz has written about healing. so understanding the anatomy of a wound was huge for me. And that allowed me to go deeper than I'd really ever gone before. So where there was a lot of healing before, just through my spiritual life and my walk with Christ, this allowed me to understand a little bit more about the psychological side of things, but yet also bringing in the spiritual component with it. And that was

incredibly healing for me and has been healing for my husband too. He also comes from a broken family. And so I think he's found a lot of healing. So through what Dr. Bob shoots and Jake Kim have done. so yeah, between those two podcasts and then even just listening to yours, Joey, mean, just to hear it's so healing to hear people tell their story and to know you're not alone. That's, that's huge.

Joey (54:37)

I'm really happy that we've been able to help you, but no, I couldn't recommend this podcast more. haven't listened to Tunda Binding Together, but I've heard amazing things about it. And Sister Miriam has been on the show. We'll link to that podcast. Great show. Dr. Bob's been on multiple times. We did talk about the anatomy of the wound on the show. And so we'll link to that as well. And then yeah, I was ⁓ on their podcast. So we'll link to that if anyone's interested as well, because that was a really enjoyable conversation with them. But that makes so much sense. ⁓ You mentioned therapy. I just want to touch on that.

briefly. Yeah, how was that helpful and what type of therapy did you go through? Curious about all that.

Brandy (55:09)

I mine must have just been cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, when the divorce happened, my mom sought out help from a psychologist and used a lot of the things that she gained from that with me, which was wonderful. So sort of a little bit of indirect therapy, I guess, if you will. And then when the abuse came out, my parents immediately put the whole family in counseling and that was also very healing.

for that process. So then since then I have done some therapy on my own. My husband and have done some therapy together and he's done some on his own. We live in a really small town. There aren't a lot of resources around here. My preference would probably just because I am Catholic to always find a Catholic counselor. Mainly just I want somebody who, you know, their belief system aligns with my belief system and the idea of bringing the spiritual component into the psychological

realm like we've talked about with Dr. Rob Schutze and Jay Kim. That's so powerful. I mean, to have the two come together. I've just never experienced healing like that. As an adult, went in search of a counselor who would incorporate the spiritual side and have… I didn't find a Catholic counselor here, but a Christian counselor and she was good. Probably didn't go as far as I would have liked for her to go. I would love to do like…

EMDR and like, you know, some of these other things that are, that are more intense, but that's, that's what I've had experience with here, you know, locally. And it's been good.

Joey (56:39)

Good, no, I'm happy. Was there anything else in terms of people in your life who helped you heal or tools or tactics, content, anything like that before we move on?

Brandy (56:48)

Yeah, I mean, I've just, the Lord has been so gracious to give me really beautiful women in my life. ⁓ that I've been able, you know, of course, my mom, talked about my mom and being able to have open conversations with her, my grandmother, her mother, while she was alive, she's no longer living, but ⁓ she had a huge impact on my life. And, and, and then I have, my mom was the youngest of eight. So I have a number of aunts and uncles and

those relationships have also been really healing. So I've been really fortunate to have really strong adults in that regard. And then I've had some beautiful women step into my life who were like my mentors at work. As I came up through the education pipeline, who have now become one in particular, she's like a second mom to me, know, so to have that to lean on and then have had some beautiful friendships with women who have, you know, been through some similar trauma. And so just

It's just really healing to have people that can speak into your life in a positive way and who've maybe been through some of the same things. I would assume it's the same for men. need those people who you can relate to and they can relate to you as well.

Joey (57:56)

No, no, we could do it on our own. don't need any help. No, no, absolutely. Yeah. It's so interesting to see the trend and all these, you know, dozens and dozens of interviews we've done. It's often like the same answer. It's really cool. Like love is healing. People are healing. And I wanted to highlight a little bit more. You already touched on this and we can go as deep as you want with it, but just like how healing your marriage has been, you know, just your relationship with Dan, no marriages without.

⁓ struggle, I know that personally, but there's so much good and beauty that can come from it. know for me, like, yeah, marriage has been hard in some ways, but it's certainly made me a better man. And, you know, I'm really grateful for my wife. I'm grateful for the marriage that we have. And so, yeah, I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit about that. You mentioned how just seeing him as a father was really helpful in healing, but yeah, what else would you mention?

Brandy (58:40)

It's so funny because as much as my mom was so good to have deep conversations with me about whatever, she's not really like physically affectionate. And so I didn't grow up a hugger and then Dan, when I met Dan, he and his whole family are very like physically affectionate. So, you know, it's been funny to kind of morph into this, this person who loves, you know, hugs, long hugs and that sort of thing. And our kids are like that too. They love physical affection. So.

I mean, even that, you know, has been really healing, I think, for me. then also just, yes, and you're right, no marriage is without struggle. I mean, it is a saint maker, to be sure. But I think because, so I know data would say that our statistics would say that Dan and I are like probably doomed because we both come from, you know, broken families.

think it probably made us also both really resilient in marriage because we were both really just not willing to give up. So in the hard times and we've had our fair share of really hard times, just like everybody else, you know, we just, we just continually said to each other, like, it's not an option. So we need to go get help or, know, whatever we need to do, you know, to make this work, to get over this hurdle.

I will say though, I think because we both come from broken families, we were not good communicators at all. I think we were afraid to have conflict, which I think is probably normal given both of our situations because conflict, think to both of us signaled, uh-oh, there's a problem and maybe there's a divorce looming. And because we weren't willing to go there, we just weren't willing to have conflict, know? And that was not healthy at all. So, I mean, I would say as your audience, you know,

as they are coming maybe from broken families and then moving into their own marriages from the very beginning, just know conflict is okay. It's actually good, you know, ⁓ and find a good counselor or a good minister, you know, somebody, a good mentor couple, somebody who can help you see conflict for the good and learn how to actually have conflict in a positive way because we did not have those skills at all. I mean, I would say here we are.

lot of years into marriage and we're still learning that. It's still really hard for us. We both really shy away from it. I think it's just because we're a product of marriages where conflict was really unhealthy and not resolved well. But marriage has been healing for sure.

Joey (1:01:19)

Beautiful, yeah, no, I get that about like the whole fear of like conflict leads to permanent separation. it's like, better avoid that, but you can avoid the permanent separation and still dive into the conflict is the lesson that I'm hearing from you. Was there like one thing that helped you push into that a little bit more and just be willing to have that conflict? Like one skill lesson resource, something like that, if anyone's wondering.

Brandy (1:01:37)

Dan and I went through a marriage retreat, if you will. was an ongoing, was retrovise actually what it's called. We did that maybe seven or eight years ago. That was really good for us, sort of taught us how to have conversations where there was maybe some conflict and have those in a productive way. also, I know you just interviewed JP DeGance. I also work through our parish with Communio. And so we've done a marriage retreat.

through our parish's relationship with Communio that was excellent. And they actually sent every couple away with like these little cards that like gave an actual like cadence to the conversation where there's conflict and like gave really helpful tools. So that was really beneficial. ⁓ And I would just say like it's never ending. You need to keep learning. I think there's never gonna, if there's ever a day where Dan and I like decide to

learning about each other or how to have conversations with each other. We're probably in dangerous territory. know, marriage retreats, we've had, had, I think I mentioned this, but two fabulous priests who really spoke into our marriage beautifully. One still does. He's still here. Yeah, all of that has been really helpful. And then some counseling that we did together was really helpful. And then we made it a point, we didn't do this when our kids were younger. I will tell on us, we were not good about date night, but

And I think that was not, you people would tell us, Oh, you need to be intentional about date night. just get, we have four kids, we were busy. Yeah. Um, but we have made it a point. mean, every Saturday night is date night for us. And, um, our kids know that and almost nothing comes in front of that. You know, it's really rare that we give that up and that just gives us, and we don't do anything fancy. It's usually just dinner out somewhere and it's not even expensive, you know, but it's just time alone.

to speak to each other and we need to talk about sometimes it's not anything really important and sometimes it is things that are really important.

Joey (1:03:36)

No, so good. And I love how like the date thing doesn't need to be complicated. That's a really good lesson there too. But one of the things just I want to convey too is all of these like problems that occur within marriages, there are solutions for, and it's not that you aren't capable, to anyone listening, it's not that you're not capable of handling conflict well. It's that you don't know how to handle conflict well. It's a skill deficiency. It's a virtue deficiency. And so you need to learn that skill just like any other skill and then practice it.

And with time, even though there's a lot of emotion involved in these things, so it might be harder, you can actually get better at it and perhaps even master it. And so I think that that's a really powerful lesson because I think so often we think in like the black and white and binary, like either have that ability or you don't, but it's like, no, it's actually just a continuum. It's like, how well do you handle conflict?

Maybe not very well at all. And that's okay. That's where you're at, but you can learn to get better at handling conflict, but it's never like a switch on and off of like you handle conflict well, or you don't handle conflict or you don't know how to, or you do know how to, it's, it's truly a continuum.

Brandy (1:04:37)

Yeah, you said it perfectly.

Joey (1:04:39)

Awesome. I, um, so I could talk to you a lot more. One thing I was just going to mention to anyone wondering what the statistic is, it's 189 % according to one study, 189 % more likely to get divorced. If you come from a divorce family, you marry someone who is also from a divorce family. you're breaking stats or I love it. And that was the least one city that found it. And, uh, no, it's so beautiful to see people who are just flying in the face of that. So thank you. I know we've been talking for a while now. I just want to close off and say,

You know, if you, if you could talk to your parents and have kind of an honest conversation with them to whatever degree you're comfortable, what would you say? What would you want them to know?

Brandy (1:05:15)

mother, I would just say thank you. Yeah, I mean, she, I'll get emotional talking about it. ⁓ I just see her as really brave, really brave. And she always put me first. And I'm just really grateful for that. To my dad, I would just say, I hope that you've, you know, you find peace and that you understand that there's nothing, I don't hold anything against you.

Joey (1:05:45)

Beautiful. Thank you so much for just sharing so vulnerably and for being an example of, you know, coming from a messy, broken situation and being able to build like a beautiful life and just become like a virtuous person. I look up to you in so many ways and I really appreciate you coming on the show. So gosh, I'm sure we could talk more. But I just wanted to say thank you and I want to leave you with the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to the younger you out there listening right now?

Brandy (1:06:13)

You're not alone. you know, you're not there are other people struggling with all the same questions you have and you can make it. You're not doomed. And I think I would just say to, you know, open up, talk to people who love you, share things that you need to share. Don't hold it in. You don't have to be perfect all the time. You know, perfectionism and performance is not love. And

you know, that there's healing on the other side.

Joey (1:06:47)

That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us like Brandy did, we'd love to hear it. And if you want, we can even post your story as an anonymous blog article on our website. You can go to restoredministry.com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes to share your story. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. really appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#150: Attachment Theory: What It Is and Why It Matters | Kirsty Nolan

What is attachment theory? How does your attachment style impact your relationships? As an expert in attachment theory, Kirsty Nolan joins us to discuss all of that, plus:

• The four attachment styles

• What happens when you have a secure attachment early in childhood, but later experience a rupture because of trauma, like your parents’ divorce

• Tips on resolving conflict, specifically how to repair after a rupture

If you’re curious about attachment styles or just want a healthy relationship, this episode is for you.

Links & Resources
Listen to Kirsty’s podcast, Attachment Theory in Action

It Doesn't Have to be Catastrophic: Dr. Nima Rahmany

Get help from Kirsty’s organization, Chaddock

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

What happens when two people with insecure attachments get into a romantic relationship?

Kirsty Nolan (00:05)

Well, there can be good, bad and ugly. What can happen when two people with insecure styles come together is that they are trying to seek something from the other person that the other person cannot give them. There's a lot more people with insecure attachment styles than we do.

Joey (00:21)

So

I'm curious like how that might play out like where you have one parent who's very present and the other one who's not

Kirsty Nolan (00:27)

There is hope for healing. You don't have to end up like your parents if that's what you don't want.

Joey (00:32)

to

do. How do I make sure that I give my child the attention, the love that they need in order to develop this secure attachment?

Kirsty Nolan (00:39)

continue

with unhealthy patterns of behavior because of those attachment styles that we

Joey (00:44)

What would you say are maybe your top tips on kind of healing and moving toward like building a healthy relationship?

Joey Pontarelli (00:54)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle build a better life.

My guest today is Kirstie Nolan. Kirstie is an expert on attachment theory. She's worked with children and families for many years and now serves as a lead trainer at the Knowledge Center.

Kiersey hosts the podcast, Attachment Theory in Action, which has over 2 million downloads. She specializes trauma-informed education, child development, and attachment among other things.

She's trained educators across Illinois and spoken nationally on these topics outside of can find Kirstie spending time with her family or hiking with her dogs.

And if you've ever wondered what is attachment theory, how does your attachment style impact your relationships? You are in the right place.

In this episode, Kirstie breaks down what attachment theory is and how your attachment style impacts your relationships.

We also discussed the four attachment styles, which actually have different names for children and adults.

what happens when you have a secure attachment early in childhood, but then later you experience a of maybe some sort of trauma like your parents' divorce.

Kiersey offers some tips on resolving conflict in relationships, specifically how to after a rupture occurs. she also shares some tips for parents or future parents on how to help their children develop a secure attachment.

If you're curious about attachment styles or maybe you just want a healthy relationship, this episode is for you. With that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (02:20)

Kirstie, so good to have you on the show, welcome.

Kirsty Nolan (02:22)

Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be here.

Joey Pontarelli (02:25)

This has

been a topic we've wanted to cover for a long time. It's a big topic, are the cover know you have a podcast on this and talk a lot about attachment and everything. I think starting out, what some people who maybe aren't familiar with attachment theory might be wondering is like, why is this important? Like, why do we need to know this? So why is it know your attachment style, to know attachment theory?

Kirsty Nolan (02:45)

You know, as I've gone through my career, it has become more more apparent to me how important attachment is. If we really break it down, attachment is about relationships, right? And we are all in relationships of one form or another, whether it be a relationship with ourselves, partner, a spouse.

an intimate relationship with a work colleague, with our parents, somebody that we bump into in the street, right? We're all in some kind of relationship with each other on some attachment

how we form relationships, how we think about relationships, how we show up in relationships. you know, to put it simply, unless you're like completely isolated, you know, I'm thinking of like what Tom Hanks on his little island with the football, like, sorry, that's my British side coming out with a soccer ball, ⁓ you know.

Joey Pontarelli (03:34)

you

Kirsty Nolan (03:41)

Attachment plays a part unless you're living on that island by yourself. Attachment impacts all of us, which is why it's so important that you have a good understanding of your own attachment style and you know, if you're in a close relationship with somebody else that you, you know, prompt them to understand theirs and you understand their attachment style too.

Joey Pontarelli (04:00)

I love that. no, I love the British accent too, by the way. So you can bring in all the British references. We might not fully understand them as Americans, but we have people listening all over the world. So I'm sure they'll appreciate that. But no, this is so good. Because what I hear you saying is that we all bond with people throughout our day on many different levels. Sometimes it's an intimate bond. Sometimes it's more of a shallow passing bond. And knowing how we show up to that bonding process is really helpful.

Kirsty Nolan (04:02)

you

Joey Pontarelli (04:26)

And so I think, especially with our more intimate relationships, which I know our audience is particularly interested in, because I think, yeah, as we'll get into, there can be a lot of problems that come up with that bonding, in that bonding process. So I'm very much an amateur on this. I'm really excited to learn from you alongside my audience, but you kind of mentioned this already a little bit, but if you would, for anyone new to the topic, like how would you explain attachment in a simple way? You already alluded to it, but is there anything else you would add?

Kirsty Nolan (04:52)

Well, first of all, I want to say, like, you know, you had sent over an outline of what we were going to chat about and when I saw, can you explain attachment theory in a simple way, I thought, yeah, no, you can't really do that. It was quite hard. And, you know, I'll say personally,

I've been thinking about attachment probably for close to 15 years in the work that I do and it took me a long time to really wrap my head around this. It's a concept, you know,

It's really hard for somebody who doesn't work in the field to understand it fully and that's okay. You don't necessarily have to understand it at its most complex level, although it is fascinating. You know, really in its simplest terms, attachment is about our relationships, as I've said before. And attachment theory about

understanding how our early relationships, particularly with caregivers, which is typically parents, but how those early relationships shape how we view ourselves, how we view others, how we view the world around us as we grow and progress through life. So it really is, it's foundational to all of our social experiences throughout the rest of our life.

Joey Pontarelli (06:08)

Okay, no, that makes so much sense. And makes sense that there's kind of an elementary understanding of it, but you can go much, much deeper. we'll be somewhere in between the two. I'm excited to learn from you. But I was curious, like on a personal note, is this something that you care about? Why do you, obviously you've put so much time and work into this. Why do you care?

Kirsty Nolan (06:24)

You know, it's funny that you ask that because that's something that I ask people on my podcast is, know, really what got you into the field are you interested in it? And, you know, some people have these like light bulb moments and I'm going to say that wasn't me. I didn't have this sudden like, wow moment. This is what I need to be doing, always been, I've always loved working with kids. I've always.

Joey Pontarelli (06:28)

honest.

Kirsty Nolan (06:48)

being interested how children develop. as I into my late teenage years, I started studying psychology at and became interested in some children will grow up and behave one way and some children will grow up and behave another. I was looking at some pretty...

unpleasant things, you know, looking how some children will turn to crime or violent behaviors and others don't. And so that then started my like, how do we end up here? do we turn into who we end up being? And that just kind of progressed into a deeper love of psychology. And then when I moved to the States and began working for Chadoc, who I work for now.

specialize in attachment and developmental trauma, that was when I kind of was like, okay, now here's the name for it. Like I've been learning about all of this, but here's the name for do we get from early life to where we are now in our relationships. And yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (07:49)

So fascinating, I'm again excited to learn from you. Diving into it a little bit deeper then, can you walk us through the different attachment styles and maybe how each of them show up in a romantic relationship in particular?

Kirsty Nolan (08:01)

Yeah, four different adult attachment styles. and just to provide a little for the listeners, and if they about attachment theory, there's actually a name for the four attachment styles as they appear in children. And there's a name for them as they appear in adults. So it can get a little bit confusing. Sometimes you might hear them, called by the wrong label as such, but

most people will fall into a secure attachment style people who have experienced caregiving that's been predictable for the most part had emotionally responsive caregivers

know, they have learned that adults can be safe and trusted. They will, as they progress through life and become adults, their adult attachment style will remain secure. And

they show up in relationships very much in the same way. They are able to trust their partner, trust that their needs will be met. They're able to communicate in ⁓ mostly healthy way. know, none of us are perfect and we all have our moments, they're able to kind of navigate those relational challenges in a healthy resolution.

would be our secure attachment style. Then we have dismissive attachment style so that would be adult attachment in a child as and so dismissive attachment style really comes from caregiving that wasn't present and so as a child you really learn to

take care of your own needs, to suppress emotions, they don't get your needs met. So, you know, a baby cries, right, when they have a need. Well, if that need doesn't get met through that crying, that baby learns to be quiet and kind of suppress those big emotions that they're Avoiding the relationship, that relational piece, right? Does that make sense? And so as an adult, we become

We're dismissive. We're still avoidant. It's just, it's called dismissive. so we're dismissive of that relationship. would tend to of push away, maybe even avoid relationships entirely, shut down and not be able to express our emotions in a healthy way kind of struggle with trust issues with regards having needs met

Joey Pontarelli (10:17)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (10:23)

understanding that the person is going to be there for them. So they would really struggle with that. Then we have our anxious or preoccupied attachment style. So anxious is what it's called in childhood and in adulthood it's preoccupied.

And this attachment style really comes from experiences of caregiving that are very inconsistent. So some days my up and they are emotionally responsive. They take care of my We have fun. And then other days not responsive. They're not they're angry or they're You know,

I would almost say perhaps, you know, when there's substance use issues or mental health issues whereby a person's kind of demeanor is very inconsistent. You know, some days we have a good day and we can be there and show up and other days we're having a bad day and we can't show up. so caregiving becomes inconsistent and unpredictable.

Joey Pontarelli (11:14)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (11:17)

And so what happens is then the child becomes very anxious about the relationship. you know, who are you today? Are good mom or sad mom? You know, how are you showing up? And they always have to check in, you know, this is like our clingy child that's checking in or doing things that's saying, hey, do you see me? And so as an adult,

you know, they become preoccupied with the relationship. And might be seeing somebody who's very insecure as we from the attachment field, we would talk about, you know, oh, they're insecure in that relationship. They're, they're very needy. they're in like, are we okay? Did I do something wrong? and find it very hard to trust the other aspect of, you know, is our

relationship good right now? Like are you are you seeing somebody else behind my back? Are you talking to somebody behind my back? So they have difficulty trusting in that that respect. then we have our disorganized attachment style

Joey Pontarelli (12:06)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (12:18)

in adults is now known as unresolved and a disorganized attachment style really comes from of caregiving that are often scary, know, typically there may be abuse or neglect happening.

And the individual gets caught in this, you know, they, can't rely on the caregiver to meet their needs, but they also can't rely on themselves because they are in really in their fight, flight, freeze mode, but you know, they're just in survival and so behavior becomes, as the name implies, very disorganized, like just very

Joey Pontarelli (12:51)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (12:52)

behavior out of children with a disorganized attachment style and so unresolved as an adult kind of shows up in the same way you know real struggle with even forming or maintaining relationships potentially staying in harmful relationships

just constant kind of go between of anxious and avoidant, anxious and avoidant. I need a relationship, but I have to avoid a relationship. And then that just all comes out in these problematic But I do wanna say disorganized or unresolved attachment style rare. It's not as common. You know, we hear a lot of...

You know, one of that you had brought up, which I'm going to touch on is, is like myths about attachment and attachment styles. And, know, in our clinical world, we hear the diagnosis of reactive attachment know, kind of.

thrown around a nowadays. kind of become a buzzword and I think that that's very unfair because a diagnosis of that and having a disorganized attachment style is not very common at all. It's more so that

People, I think, are showing up more in those anxious, avoidant, preoccupied, dismissive styles. we like putting labels on things nowadays, don't we?

Joey Pontarelli (14:10)

yes, yes. No,

this is so helpful. Was there anything else you were gonna add? Yeah, definitely.

Kirsty Nolan (14:14)

No, I,

like I said at the start, like there's really no quick way of describing it. This is, it is in depth. once you start getting a feel for it, I guess one of the things I like to tell people

and this might help them think about those different styles is that view attachment in like a quadrant with our four different styles and secure is where we would like to be, where we have low anxiety about relationships, we have low avoidant, meaning that we are happy to into relationships. And then we have our anxious, which is our high anxiety.

low avoidance so we desperately want it or anxious about it. We have our avoidant where we have any anxiety about it and we highly avoid it so we don't want to be around people and then we have our disorganized which is high in both areas so just another way of looking at

Joey Pontarelli (15:09)

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And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free it might just be the thing you need start feeling healthier physically emotionally.

Joey Pontarelli (15:47)

That's

helpful, that's helpful to see. So basically the two axes are how anxious are you and then how avoidant are you? High, low, okay, that's really helpful. So many questions, which I know we're going to divert, but so one of the things was when you say child versus adult, are we using typical ages or is there some sort of a cutoff where like this age would be considered a child and this age would be considered an adult?

Kirsty Nolan (15:55)

I'm

Honestly don't know the answer to that.

I'm not too proud to say that. I don't know and it would have to be something I would look up. I'm guessing that there probably is somewhere in the research there is an age cutoff. ⁓ My guess would be 18, but it might be later than that. I suppose with more brain research that comes out and as we see the brain is kind of fully matured by late 20s now, it might be later than that.

But yeah, that's interesting. That's a good question.

Joey Pontarelli (16:39)

Yeah, and thanks for your honesty. I'm just curious about that. The other thing I was thinking was kind of relating to my own story and I'll use myself as like a guinea pig a bit throughout this interview to help people learn. So my mom was super attentive growing up, like very much so like put us children like first and better for us, she was like just a super mom and know, always like taking care of us and just providing the best for us. Dad was a little bit more.

you know, removed, just a very hardworking man. Like I admire him so much for that, but not as much, you know, emotionally in touch as maybe a lot of men were back And I know that's a big generalization, but I think that's what he would say and other men I've talked to at that time. So I'm curious like how that might play out, like where you have one parent who's very present and the other one who's not. And then also the second question would be ⁓ if you maybe had a great experience early on and then.

you know, for me, I was like 10, 11 years old when my parents split and it was pretty dramatic and they eventually got divorced. How that might play out, even though I had this early experience of like a, what I could tell like a really good secure attachment, but that was like kind of fractured a little bit later. So I'm curious how, yeah, both those play out.

Kirsty Nolan (17:45)

it's interesting that you give that example of your own because I had a very similar situation growing up and I would almost exactly describe it how you just described yours that you know my dad was out to work 8 to 6 every day very hard working I knew that he loved me loved my brother but as you said like most men gonna guess you and I are somewhat similar in age so

their generation, being a man wasn't about being emotionally there for your kids so much. That was the mother's role and you went out to work and that's just kind of how things were. And you know, we, as part of my job at Chaddock, I had to complete an adult attachment interview to give me my attachment style, my adult attachment style, we know how important it is for

the work that we do that we have staff who have secure attachment styles. And my result told me that I was secure dismissive, so I think I would have to look back at my full results, but I'm mostly secure, but I have this tendency to move into a dismissive style. me,

that sums up what we just described with our parents that, you know, for the most part we can turn up and be secure in a relationship. sometimes we may suppress some of our emotions because of that lack of responsiveness from our dads. And I'm generalizing to you, but that would be my experience. ⁓ And to me, that made perfect sense, you know? ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (19:16)

Sure. Same, yeah.

Kirsty Nolan (19:22)

just because of my own upbringing. And so think to then speak to your second question, it kind of links to what we're talking Because, so my parents also divorced when I was around 15, 16. It's kind of blurry. It wasn't very fun for anybody, right? And...

Joey Pontarelli (19:39)

No, that's what hurt.

Kirsty Nolan (19:41)

When I was thinking about this question earlier today, way I can answer it complicated. There are a lot of different variables that come into play. Now, if you go into any literature research, it will tell you that one of the most powerful...

know, protective factors is having stable, safe relationship that you can turn to during times of distress, right? So I was able to turn to my mom. I was also able to turn to my dad somewhat during that time. And so I was able to navigate that.

stressful situation somewhat, somewhat successfully. Would I say relationships in life have been perfect? No. And could I, if I really dug down deep and was honest, could I say that some of that stuff shows up? Absolutely. for the most part, I was able to move healthily on. Now.

If you take another situation where, okay, parents are divorcing, but perhaps there's domestic violence in the home as well. That's Perhaps one of the parents is using drugs or alcohol. Perhaps there's infidelity in the home. Perhaps they are also going through a crisis and they don't know if they're gonna have food in the next you start adding in all of those pieces on top of...

a somewhat fragile attachment bond, then it becomes harder for us to progress and move through those stressful situations and come out healthy on the other side. Does that make sense?

Joey Pontarelli (21:10)

100%. I remember, I've quoted this before in the show, but I remember reading a study from Turkey where they looked at high school students who, you and as a, as you kind of expect, the high school students who came from divorced families were more likely to struggle with anxiety, depression, and loneliness. But if those students had a good relationship with one or most both parents, they were far less likely to struggle with those things. so, yeah, I totally agree. Like it makes so much sense. And the trauma therapists that we've had on have said exactly what you said that

⁓ what makes trauma trauma, ⁓ one of our trauma therapists that we send people to, she says what makes trauma trauma is really how it's taken care of and after the fact. And so that makes so much sense how that would play out and attachment as well.

Kirsty Nolan (21:49)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And to me, it also speaks volumes to how important other people are. I had a wonderful teacher in my high school who, you know, just...

held space for me and said, if you need me and I'm available, I'm here. If you need a space, you don't need to see me, but here's a space for you. It was that reminder that just because things are chaotic elsewhere, here there's stability and there's predictability, which is what attachment is rooted in, that consistency and predictability and knowledge that if something happens, I've got somebody to turn to.

Joey Pontarelli (22:27)

Beautiful, no, that's so good. And I know we have people listening who maybe have someone in their life who's going through hard time or they've injured trauma and they wanna help them. So that's really helpful to hear that you can just be that person, which I know you guys have more resources of on this whole topic as well. But moving forward, I was curious, do we have general statistics on like many people fall into each of the styles?

Kirsty Nolan (22:46)

There is, I probably should've looked that up too. I know one thing I can say is that, if I'm correct in remembering, is that there are...

Joey Pontarelli (22:48)

Bye.

Kirsty Nolan (22:56)

a lot less people with secure attachment styles than we once thought. So actually there's a lot more people with insecure attachment styles than we thought. so speaks to why it's so important. You know, think particularly in...

like the child welfare system and in the foster care system as to why we need to be identifying people who do have secure attachment styles or predominantly falling into that secure quadrant who are able to then provide that stability for the kids in their care.

Joey Pontarelli (23:29)

I love that. That's so important. That's a big conversation for another time, that ⁓ no, that makes so much sense. And I'm curious, and maybe this is a quick question, like how common is it in your professional experience, if you have incident into this, for maybe young people who come from these families where they've had these adverse experiences of maybe divorce or high conflict at home to develop these ⁓ insecure attachments, is that a pretty common thing?

Kirsty Nolan (23:32)

Yes.

Again, I so individualized. Like it's very hard to make a comment on that as I said, there's so many different variables that come into play. And you know, didn't even mention like our individual differences and like our temperament style and how navigate experiences can all come into play.

I'm sure that there are statistics out there, but I think that...

think that it can be a little bit like fear mongering to label those things because we lose hope then, right? And I think there's this fear that I keep having this saying in my head, this you know, am I gonna turn out like my parents, so many young people are afraid of

one of your points was about you know healing or you know moving towards healing and is hope for healing. It takes some understanding and some some knowledge and self-reflection you don't have to end up like your parents if that's what you don't want to do.

Joey Pontarelli (24:52)

Yeah,

I love that. No, think like victim mentality is a huge problem in our culture. And I understand like why people fall into it. can like our wounds can feel like so powerful. Our emotions can feel so powerful, like they control us. But I love what you're saying here that no, we actually have power these things, even if in the moment it feels like we don't. So we'll maybe go into that a little bit further. But I wanted to hit on quickly the myths and maybe misunderstandings about attachment there. You mentioned one What else would you add?

Kirsty Nolan (25:18)

One of the things I encounter a lot is firstly is like the misuse of the word attached. You know, work with a lot of educators and is particularly with younger children, but it could, I mean, it could also be applied to adolescents and teenagers, but you know, I'll, I'll hear somebody say, ⁓ they're really attached to me. And when we're talking about attachment,

know, if I ask, you what does attachment mean to you? And they'll say, well, yeah, I have this kid who's really attached to me. And as we mentioned before, with the attachment styles, overly dependent on someone and overly...

anxious about that relationship isn't always healthy. And so I try to veer people away from using that terminology keeping the word attached out of what we're talking about and instead, know, I have a child or a student always needs my attention, is always right by my side and those kinds of things when we're describing it. So that would be one of the kind of misunderstandings is that attached

means good because it doesn't always mean good and healthy in the attachment Another one, and I had written this down earlier, is that attachment styles are set in stone and that we can't change. And you kind of mentioned this earlier, you know, think everything that I've learned and read about has taught me that

Joey Pontarelli (26:36)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (26:43)

have a tendency towards one attachment I have a tendency towards secure attachment, but sometimes during times of distress or times when there's relational challenges, I move into that dismissive style. And so the same can be said for someone who

Joey Pontarelli (26:54)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (27:01)

maybe they have the preoccupied or anxious style, right? They're predominantly, or they have this tendency to fall into that quadrant. doesn't mean that they can't take steps to move towards being more secure in their relationships. It takes awareness. it's, again, everything that I've read and when I've talked to people about this, it's you can't fully change it.

Joey Pontarelli (27:15)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (27:25)

but you can be aware of it and that means that you can show up differently.

Joey Pontarelli (27:28)

That's really helpful. And I don't know if this was a perfect analogy. I don't think they're like a one-to-one comparison, a perfect comparison, but it sounds almost like your personality in some ways where it's like, I might have a tendency to be, you know, caloric where I'm just like very hard charging type A, like get things done, like all that. it doesn't mean I have to bulldoze people. Like I can learn to be a little bit more reflective and thoughtful and all of that. Would that be similar?

Kirsty Nolan (27:50)

Yeah,

I think that's a great example. I'm glad you thought of it because I was trying to think of one in my head.

Joey Pontarelli (27:55)

No, you're

good, you're good. You're bringing all the value. I'm here to help facilitate, so I love happens when two people attachments into a romantic relationship?

Kirsty Nolan (27:58)

Boom.

Well, there can be good, bad and ugly, you know, as with most relationships. I think that unfortunately what can happen when two people with insecure styles come together is they trying to seek something from the other person that the other person cannot give them. And happens then

they then start acting in ways.

again, to keep trying to get what they need and it's not getting met. And so the behaviors continue to escalate. And so we end up in this conflict where neither one can meet the needs of the other one. Yet we also can't stop the behaviors that we're doing. know, the thing about attachment styles and insecure attachment styles particularly is that we continue with unhealthy patterns of behavior of those attachment styles that we have.

And so, you know, let me give you an example. Let's say we have an avoidant person and an anxious person in a relationship together. Our anxious person going to be constantly like checking in, you know, hey, did I do something wrong? Did I say something wrong? Should I have done that? Hey, where are you going? Like, why didn't you answer my text message? And the avoidant person who has learned to get their needs met, I have to suppress my emotions and not do that is going to pull away.

Joey Pontarelli (29:23)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (29:24)

they're then causing the anxious person to feel even more insecure, right? And so we're like butting heads with each other and nobody's getting their needs met.

Joey Pontarelli (29:29)

sort of there. Wow.

Wow,

no, no, no, that's fascinating. And so much sense. I remember reading, I forget the book I read on attachment, but it was talking about how there's even like an attraction between anxious or dismissive and what's the right term? Anxious or preoccupied, if an adult's preoccupied. And yeah, why is that? I'm curious, why is there that attraction?

Kirsty Nolan (29:46)

Yes.

Well, you know, it's funny that you bring that up because one of your questions was about recommending podcasts and I did an episode on our podcast, our attachment theory and action podcast Dr. Nima he describes his experience of

this like almost this epiphany of his own childhood and and so on and and how he was showing up in relationships and

was anxious and so was seeking out someone in a relationship who would constantly to that need to be seen, to be heard and so on. And so there was an attraction for him to that particular attachment style. I can't speak for the other person, but he described in our episode, know, unhealthy, it becomes unhealthy.

to me it's fascinating. Like in my world, attachment theory comes up when we work with children and families, right? But as we mentioned at the start, attachment plays this part in all of our lives, all through our adulthood and how we're showing up in our most intimate relationships. there's so much complexity to it. Like you said, it's not just about pushing each other away, but there's this attraction piece and yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (31:03)

For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more.

One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough. By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restored ministry.

or just click the link in the show notes.

Joey Pontarelli (32:06)

Yeah,

no, there's so much complexity. There's so many layers. That's why, you know, we're only gonna be able to go so deep on this podcast, but I definitely recommend people check out yours and we'll link to that episode that you mentioned as well. No, this is so fascinating. It sounds to me like so much of this is happening on an unconscious level. Like we're kind of acting out of style and any wounds that we have and our personality obviously comes to play all these different things that are upbringing. And so it makes sense that these kind of...

dramas would play out in our relationships and unless there's like awareness and kind of self mastery that's brought to it, can get pretty ugly. what you're saying too about like there's hope you can like learn to love and going back to what you said about that episode that you recorded was, it just makes me think of like this idea of repetition compulsion where we kind of recreate, you know, the familiar experiences that we had in the past. So it almost sounds like he had fallen into that,

I think there's probably parents listening and I'm sorry for jumping around here, who maybe are thinking, know, how do I make sure that I give the attention, the love that need in order to this secure attachment? So can we briefly touch on that? Like any like top tips that you would give to parents listening who are like, just do these things.

Kirsty Nolan (33:14)

Yeah, well of all I want to so use the word which is like a buzzword for me and use the word attention and whenever I talk with parent, a caregiver, a teacher who's working with kids is that

Joey Pontarelli (33:23)

Okay,

Kirsty Nolan (33:28)

The word attention is very tricky because often we fall into the trap of saying, they just want attention. And often we even do this, oh, they just want attention. Like we almost pushed them away. And the saying has flown around the psychology field and relational field for ages, but replacing that word attention with connection is really helpful. so,

You know, when parents, I'm a fairly new parent, she's almost two, and you know what? It's hard. It's so very hard and it's tiring. And you can't always give a child your full attention, right? So my first tip is to parents is give yourself grace. This isn't, our attachment style comes from...

numerous repeated experiences, okay? And you know, if the baby cries for a little bit longer and you can't quite get there right away, it's okay. You know, if your toddler and you can't get there right away, it's okay. What matters most is that you're consistent and predictable in how you show up, okay?

Joey Pontarelli (34:32)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (34:33)

making sure that you're present. when, you know, my toddler is having a hard time, I get down on her level, we pick her up and we, we soothe her and we talk to her in gentle tones. we do that constantly over and over. And so we're, we're emotionally responsive.

So being present, being emotionally responsive, which can also be hard. Being emotionally responsive means accepting that good, bad and ugly. So can handle it when you're happy, I can handle it when you're sad, I can handle it when you're screaming. It's hard, but that's what's gonna create this secure attachment style is being present. And if you can't be present,

allow somebody to step in and be present for you for a minute. You know, it's okay to tap out. It's okay to say, whoa, I need to walk away for a minute so that they get that same consistent response. Does that make sense?

Joey Pontarelli (35:19)

Mm-hmm.

100%.

That's really helpful, thank you. Because I know we have some parents listening and we have people who maybe want to be parents one day, I think it's helpful. what I hear you saying is you don't have to have a perfect grade. You don't have to have this perfect performance as a parent. As long as you of put in the reps and try to do the best you can. But not just do the best you can, you're, like you said, using the word connection, you're connecting with your child in these different struggles, in these different moments. You're there fill their needs in inappropriate ways.

I love that and gosh, there's so much more I could talk to you about.

Kirsty Nolan (35:55)

just wanna say that can be applied to our adult relationships too. You and I began this conversation thinking about how do we support maybe older teens who have gone through hard experiences with their parents. And again, attachment applies to all of us. it's not, you're right, it's not about being perfect or getting a perfect grade in parenting or as a spouse, as a boyfriend, girlfriend.

Joey Pontarelli (35:57)

Sure.

Kirsty Nolan (36:19)

It's just about being real and it's okay to say, I messed up.

what can we do differently? Or I don't know how to respond right now. just, can we sit for a minute and see if we can figure this out together? even I'm really upset right now and I need a few minutes, but then I'm gonna come back to you. And following through with that, that's the biggest piece is that follow through too. We call it in the attachment field, we call it rupture and repair. And so ruptures happen all the time in every situation. It's how we then repair it afterwards.

what's important.

Joey Pontarelli (36:54)

Any tips on that? Because a lot of the people listening right now, if they came from a family where there was a high degrees of dysfunction, they, especially like in the marriage, they probably didn't see that handled super well. So any quick tips on the repair side of it?

Kirsty Nolan (37:06)

yourself time, one of the first things we all need to do is calm down and so when a rupture happens it's okay to say need a minute or I need 20 minutes or I need half a day I need some time to regulate myself and yourself you know what do really want from the situation?

What is your ultimate goal? our kids it's always, to teach them or punish them? so asking yourself again, whether you're with your child or with your spouse, like what is your goal in this situation? what do you need in this situation in order for the repair to happen? And then being ready to listen to the other person's perspective as well.

Joey Pontarelli (37:46)

Which often, yeah, which obviously requires empathy, but often a lot of humility because the ego can like wanna just win you know, prove your point. So I definitely have, you know, wrestled with that in my own relationship, especially in my marriage, because it's like, man, it is, yeah, it's easy to make the other the enemy when they're not. It's just the problem's the enemy or whatever.

Kirsty Nolan (38:05)

Absolutely and and recognizing that Just because you showed up one way in one moment doesn't mean that that is who you are or who you have to be but it does take like you and vulnerability to go there reflect on those pieces and how do we

how do we recognize them, acknowledge them, how do we embrace use them as a way to guide us to show a different way.

Joey Pontarelli (38:31)

So good. On that note, you mentioned before that even if two people who have an insecure attachment are in a relationship together, they're able to build something healthy. What would you say are, I don't know, maybe your top tips on kind of healing and moving toward like building a healthy relationship, even if maybe you didn't see that growing up or you have an insecure attachment.

Kirsty Nolan (38:51)

Well, I think firstly, I will always recommend individual therapy. So not couples therapy initially, individual therapy with somebody who knows about attachment theory and being able to work through your own stuff first so that you know how you are showing up in the and then moving towards some kind of couples therapy.

I mean, if you really want to address it, that is what I would recommend. Some people are able their own research, do their own learning, and that's okay too. sometimes it takes someone outside of yourself, outside of the relationship, to help navigate those to almost be your base.

to go to and someone who can say, yeah, I see what you're going through. I see that you're working through some hard stuff. here for you. Like that's kind of how they're acting in that space. individual couples therapy and then learning, you know, how to be more self reflective. Those would be my tips.

Joey Pontarelli (39:53)

Beautiful, no I love that. Well we're at the end of our time together, but I want to make sure people know about everything that you guys are offering. So yeah, please tell us a bit about what you offer how people can follow you.

Kirsty Nolan (40:02)

Yeah, absolutely. So I actually host the podcast Attachment Theory in Action. And you can find us at AttachmentTheoryinAction.com. And I work for an organization called Chadoc, and we support children and families who have been impacted by developmental trauma and attachment disruptions. so if your listeners know anyone that needs support in those areas, they can find us at Chadoc.com. And

They can also find me on Facebook in the Attachment Theory and Action Network group if they would like to join.

Joey Pontarelli (40:34)

Beautiful. Thank you so much. want to give you the last word. What final maybe encouragement or advice would you offer to everyone listening, know, those teenagers and young adults who come from divorced or dysfunctional families who've really struggled because of that. final word would you give them?

Kirsty Nolan (40:47)

say is What you're going through right now is very hard. If you can find the space be a little vulnerable and embrace some self-reflection and kind of truths yourself, about...

family life and about where you want to be and where you see yourself, definitely hope for healing in the future.

Joey Pontarelli (41:12)

That wraps up this episode of This Podcast Has Helped You. Feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people that way. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We really appreciate that that also helps people the podcasts.

closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that build a better life and we are here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who can't go back change the beginning, you can start where you are change ending.

#149: He Was His Parents’ Therapist Until It Broke Him | Cole

What happens when you become your parents’ emotional confidant—their therapist—during a divorce? At first, it might feel like you’re helping. But eventually, it backfires and might even break you. That’s what happened to Cole. 

In this episode, we explore:

• How he went through his parents’ separation twice—and how each one affected him differently

• How he’s slowly rebuilding family relationships after stepping away to heal

• Why even small decisions felt impossible—and how he learned to choose with confidence

If you’ve ever acted as your parents’ therapist—or felt crushed by their divorce or the chaos at home—this episode is for you.

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Reach out to Cole: healthcjh@gmail.com 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

What was life like at home in the years and months before your parents

Cole (00:03)

initial separation was a pretty high conflict situation, a lot of fighting, lot of yelling, lot of screaming. It ultimately ended up with the police being called to our house one night.

Joey (00:13)

Any lessons that you pulled from that that maybe would be useful to someone listening who's going through that right now?

Cole (00:17)

Boundaries

are definitely important. I had no idea what a boundary was. I was often kind of both of their confidants about how they felt about the other person.

Joey (00:25)

what led to the separation initially and then the divorce ultimately.

Cole (00:29)

Part of the reason that I felt things were going well is because I was being this mediator and listening ear to both of my parents and I felt like I could, you know, fix

Joey (00:38)

Were there any like lessons or mistakes that you wish maybe you could have done a little bit differently?

Cole (00:44)

I tried

to just logic my way out of things and avoid my feelings. Then I also tried to cover it up with pornography, you know, that was effective in the short term, but also made me miss

Joey (00:53)

Were there any other helpful tools or tactics that helped you heal, helped you transform in a better, stronger you?

Joey Pontarelli (01:02)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panrelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Cole. Cole is a physicist, husband, father who on developing cutting edge photo sensors for astronomy, medical imaging, and physics research. Since his parents divorced in Cole has worked hard to overcome the emotional pain, the problems stemming from his parents' including using this podcast therapy and many other podcasts and books in order to heal. has a good job, great and a wonderful daughter. Cole lives in Massachusetts.

his wife and daughter. His current favorite activity is letting his baby girl asleep on his chest.

But what happens when you become your parents' emotional confidant, their therapist, during or even before a divorce? At first, it might feel like you're helping, like you're doing something good, but eventually backfires and might even break you, and that's what happened to Cole. And so in this episode, we explore how he went through his parents' separation twice and how each one affected him differently.

how he's slowly rebuilding his family relationships, his relationship with his parents after stepping away for a while in order to heal. We talk about his struggle with emotions, talk about stoicism and the lie that real men don't feel.

We touch on why even small decisions felt impossible for him and how he learned to choose with confidence. And then finally, he shares a really powerful encouragement for feels stuck because of their family's dysfunction.

And so if you've ever acted as your parents' therapist or felt crushed by the divorce or the chaos at home, this episode is for you. And with that, is our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (02:37)

Cole, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you.

Cole (02:39)

Great to be here, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (02:40)

I've been looking forward to this show for a while. Um, I know you were a part of some interviews we were doing, trying to understand our audience a while back. And, um, I was just so impressed the way you articulated story and everything. And so not to put pressure on you to do it perfectly in this conversation, but I, yeah, I remember just immediately being like, Oh my gosh, this guy needs to come on the podcast. I'm sorry. It's taken this long, but it's really have you here. And I want to, as we usually do just dive right Uh, what was life like at home?

in the years and months before your parents split.

Cole (03:07)

so much like you, Joey, my parents' divorce was kind of in two parts they had a actually fairly brief separation when I was in high school, about 15, and then they finally separated for good when I was a senior in college. I was about 22. And then I was, they got divorced right in the middle of COVID. July 2020 was their official divorce date.

And I'll say the initial separation was a pretty, shall we say, high conflict situation. A lot of fighting, lot of yelling, a lot of It ultimately ended up with the police being called to our house one night. my dad packed a bag and stayed with his parents for a month or so. was a long, slow process, making sure felt.

okay with him being back in the home when my parents were able to reconcile at that point. And then when they finally separated and divorced, that was a little bit more low conflict. I mean, I was away at college, so I was shielded from a lot of it. As a matter of fact, they didn't tell me when they separated. They waited until I got back from school to let me know. funny thing about that is I called home every week. I just, like, I didn't even...

I was like, huh, it to be only talking to one or the other of them, whether was like whoever's cell phone I call. And then, was, even still, I was just shocked when I finally learned.

Joey Pontarelli (04:23)

Okay, I that makes so much sense and yeah, like you mentioned, I can definitely relate and we'll probably go into that a little bit deeper, but no, it's so interesting how one was kind of high conflict, one was low conflict. And I've definitely seen that where it of bounces back and forth and we'll get into that a little bit deeper. to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, I'm curious like what led to separation initially and then the divorce ultimately.

Cole (04:44)

Yeah, so the final separation.

a good way to put it.

Yeah, I mean it ultimately came down to unmet expectations. My mom, you know, has very high expectations for herself and others and My dad was basically never able to meet them consistently. you know, he didn't handle that well in a lot of ways. And eventually he kind of just emotionally checked out and...

Eventually my mom just couldn't handle that anymore. So she kind of said, hey, I think we should take, like, we should be separated and see that's good for us, if we're able to, you know, to use that space to fix our marriage. Ultimately they kind of backed themselves into a corner where it felt like divorce was the only that's what they decided.

Joey Pontarelli (05:26)

Okay, that makes sense. And are you an only child?

Cole (05:28)

No, I have a younger sister. She is a year and a half younger, so we're very close in age and very different in temperament. I'd say we both would get in the middle of their arguments, but she would get in the middle to join in, and I would get in the middle to try to defuse the situation. Or I would just run. I used to just run and hide in my room when they started yelling.

Joey Pontarelli (05:30)

Okay, and how many years behind you is she?

Okay.

Okay, fair enough. I get both reactions. our interactions that we've had you come across as like very much to like a diplomat, like someone who tries to keep the peace and negotiate all that, such a great quality. But yeah, it definitely is tricky a young person and your parents are fighting don't want them to be fighting and it might seem ridiculous, but they feel very

and pent up and the emotions are running high and you just don't really know what to do. Were there any anything you learned that was maybe the most constructive? Like you mentioned two things there, right? of running away and shielding yourself or you maybe trying to be someone of like negotiator. Any lessons that you pulled from that that maybe would be useful to someone listening who's going through that right now?

Cole (06:30)

I mean, it's hard, right? Especially, I think about this a lot. When my parents finally divorced, I was out of college. I was able move out of the house and get some separation from it I don't know what I would have done if I was still in high school, still dependent, with no way to go. guess I would say it definitely gets better. I'm sorry. If you're going through that right now, I'm really sorry.

Yeah, would... The best I can say keep your head up and try to get through it day by day.

Yeah, I mean, as a Christian, would say pray about I guess what was helpful for me at the time is I had a good group of friends around didn't really share what I was going through at home, but even still, just having the laugh and joke and have safe people to hang out with and not worry about. I mean, we had normal high school fights about whatever.

not worried that the temperature in the room is going to drop 10 degrees because someone's in a foul mood. Yeah, just find people like that wherever you can.

Joey Pontarelli (07:26)

That's good. No, I like that. there's a lot of wisdom in finding like healthy distractions when you're in that situation. I know that was like helpful for me. Now, some of my distractions were not healthy and that's another story. And so I think we like, we want to avoid that as much as possible. But yeah, I think those healthy distractions are really good. And one of the things I was talking with a college student recently and just the situation that she's dealing with is definitely a tricky one with her dad being in.

of this really like, I don't use the word narcissism lightly. I know that that word's kind of thrown around a lot, but like this situation, I would say like fits the bill pretty well. And so one of the things that we were talking about was sometimes I think when you're in the midst of and you're dependent on your parents,

You kind of need under the radar to an extent. Like you kind of just like you said, like you kind of need to get by, get through. And you're on your own, like you had then there's more ability to some.

more appropriate boundaries, even if you already implemented some to avoid anything like serious or inappropriate, whatever. So yeah, anyway, you know, and there's obviously a lot we could say about this, but I think there's something to that lesson. And I kind of felt that way. And I've known a lot of like, teenagers, high school students who kind of are in that spot, you kind of just need to put your head your head up while putting it down to some degree and, know, getting by until on your own.

Cole (08:42)

Yeah, really wish I had a better answer. I boundaries are definitely important. I had no idea what a boundary was. I remember I read the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud after my parents got divorced and I read the whole thing and I was like, yeah this doesn't really apply to me. doing great and then I very quickly realized that I just didn't recognize when I didn't have boundaries.

and that it really did apply to me and I had a long way to go. mean boundaries are definitely the best thing that you can do if you're in high school and you're starting to recognize that your family's dysfunction isn't, shall we say, variety and it's a little bit more serious. Yeah, try to implement boundaries to keep yourself sane, whatever looks like.

Joey Pontarelli (09:25)

no, that's good advice. And honestly, I don't know if there's much more that could be said, which kind of sucks. It's like, what the heck, like why isn't there a better solution to all this? yeah, I'm with you right there. It's a really rough thing to go through. So you'd mentioned that the initial separation was in high school for you and final separation and divorce was in college. Do you remember how old you were at both instances?

Cole (09:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, actually I looked through my journals in preparation for and yeah, was 15 my parents first separated and then I just shy of 22 when they separated ended up being for good.

Joey Pontarelli (09:59)

Okay, thanks for sharing. Do you remember how they broke the news to you in both of situations?

Cole (10:04)

well the first time the police were called so was pretty and i was i was home i witnessed the incident ⁓ so yeah so it wasn't ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (10:07)

You mentioned that,

wow. Okay.

Cole (10:14)

Yeah, that one was very, very clear. been fighting a lot, was clear that something had to

The second time though, I was college, I was in a different state, it was a little harder to keep track of what was going on at home.

there wasn't, you know, like I knew they had problems and one of the other parts of my story is that I was often kind of both of their confidants about how they felt about the other person. And some of that, like, some of that was trying to be constructive, like, how do you think I could say that in a way that your parent, your other parent would understand, you know, and they were trying to be helpful and make their marriage function. some of it was, you not very healthy.

Joey Pontarelli (10:46)

Hmm.

Cole (10:53)

But so I knew they had problems. But I really didn't expect that they were going to separate and that I really didn't expect they were ultimately going to divorce.

Joey Pontarelli (11:02)

No, that makes a lot of sense. you get home from college and you had mentioned they sat you down. Was it both of them together or was it separate conversations?

Cole (11:10)

No,

was just my mom because she stayed home and then my dad.

Yeah, my dad was staying elsewhere for a long time. my mom sat me down and talked me through it. I remember just being really depressed. had about two weeks of spring break, I just had one these long walks in the woods. Just kind of like, kind of process it you know, a lot of ways, I kind of sleptwalked my way through the last couple months of senior year of college. know, there were a lot of good moments even in that.

It was really weighing me down.

Yeah, and eventually, like I did eventually see my dad after that. We kind of talked through his side. You know, that that was, I mean, it was just hard, right? Like, I'm glad that we had that experience, but not like you're like, yeah, my parents are separated. This is so good.

Joey Pontarelli (11:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, for sure. I know in some there can be like a level of relief, especially like you said before, if it was high conflict, especially in the low conflict situations, it's like, yeah, gosh, what punch in the stomach. those conversations are think one of the things about my family that's been tricky, at least my parents, who I deeply love and

always striving to have a better relationship with that we don't often talk about the hard, hard things. We'll talk about difficult things. We'll have conversations, it's like those really core difficult things like the divorce, things that happened in the past that I won't go into. I've often found that those things just aren't really talked about. That was kind of a lesson that I observed growing up. so that's something obviously I'm trying to do differently in my life, but.

yeah, it's tricky, but those conversations are not easy. So I definitely get your reaction. It makes a ton of sense to me. I would have reacted the same way and in so many ways I did. But yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing all that. And curious to go back to high school just for a second here, because I think there's people who can relate to that situation with the police. I actually had a similar situation my parents. It was a little bit different, but the police were involved at multiple occasions.

was definitely, of brings us to a new level. So I'm curious, like as a high school kid, like you obviously know your parents are fighting, things are tense at home, high conflict, the police show kind of were you feeling and thinking immediately after that?

Cole (13:17)

Yeah, I mean it was I don't remember exactly when, but sometime in that period I was like, you know, I actually prefer to be at school right now. Like at school I don't have to think about what's at home. can distract myself, feel like yeah, I'm at school, I'm supposed to be focusing on school things. that's what I really remember. And then,

The one thing I was relieved about was that I didn't think my parents were going to get divorced and I kind of, felt like we'd hit rock bottom and things could only get better from here. And for a while they did and that was actually really nice. was like a real sense of relief. The downside to that is that part of, know, maybe a small part of the of the reason that

I felt things were going well is because I was being this mediator and listening ear to both of my parents. And I felt like I could, you know, fix them, right? And like I could manage things so that the house would be peaceful and be the middle man and whatnot. know, at the time that felt like a superpower.

wow, if you just love people enough, can control how they'll act and they'll act rightly and so on and so forth. And my parents ultimately did divorce, I just hit this wall where I realized, no, I don't have this power. I'm not superhuman. I can't control other people. ultimately, they're going to make their own But in fact, it's unhealthy to try to manage everybody.

to the extent that I was doing that.

That was a really bitter pill to swallow. I'm very grateful that I learned that at 22 and not at 52 like so many other people do.

Joey Pontarelli (14:50)

Yeah, man, what a hard lesson. get that and I get that desire to help. My goodness, I felt that too. And I know my siblings, especially certain ones, certainly filled more of that role of the confidant, especially for one parent compared to another. it seems so, don't know if natural is the word, but it's just kind of an obvious thing that you would try to do. And I'm curious, so you had that kind of aha moment of like, you know what, this isn't,

working, it's not healthy. How did you change that? I'm curious, maybe it kind of naturally changed due to distance. That's one question. And two, I'm curious like the maybe impact you acting as that confidant, as that maybe like emotional spouse that some people would talk has affected your relationship with your parents over the long haul, to date now. yeah, I'm curious kind of how you ended that and then how that's affected your relationship with them over the long haul.

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Cole (16:19)

well, I guess, like I said, I kind of hit a wall. And so the final thing was that in the summer of COVID, I mean, I'll say COVID was actually in many ways gift to me in the sense that my inner world was such in turmoil with my parents' divorce that with the whole outer world being in turmoil because of COVID.

It actually felt like there was resonance with the world, that my inner and outer worlds were in harmony. You know, there was no more cognitive dissonance that I'm so miserable, but the world's doing so well. So that was kind of nice, actually. But ⁓ yeah, but I spent the summer of COVID helping my dad move his stuff out of our And he had a lot of stuff, Joey. It took the whole summer. Every weekend, he and I would load up a truck and then he'd drive it back to his new house.

Joey Pontarelli (16:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Get that?

Man.

Cole (17:06)

⁓

And once that was done, just, I was done. I kind of, whatever muscle that I was using, I had exhausted it. And so knew that I couldn't, I just had no more to give. And so like I had to, out of self-preservation, take a step back and stop fulfilling that mediator and confidant role, both of my parents and my sister.

And that was really hard because they were really struggling in a dark place and then they kind of felt like one of their sources of goodness in their life, me, not to sound too bragg-ocious here, but that I was cutting that off too. all three of them in different ways had a really hard time with that. And I would say just in the last year or so have we managed to...

Joey Pontarelli (17:48)

Hmm.

Cole (17:52)

you know, have they gotten to a place of healing, I got into a place of healing that we can attempt to, you know, apologize for our parts and what and rebuild our relationship on a more sturdy foundation. But it was really, I mean, long, drawn-out process. We're talking at least four, if not five years, and, you know, some of those relationships are still not where I hope they'll be.

Joey Pontarelli (18:16)

Sure, work in progress. I get that. I like the language you use, like rebuilding. I think there's like a really, there's a really powerful lesson in everything you just said. I think that we often need to take that approach to unhealthy relationships. Some unhealthy relationships just need to be ended. With family, obviously it's like tricky because they're to some level always in our life and unless it's like truly like toxic and dangerous for us, then hopefully there's a way of, you like you said rebuilding.

restoring, like saving the relationship, but it takes time. I think that's something that a lot of us forget. I know I forget it. We watch movies, we read stories, and we see like the resolution happen like But the reality of the story might be, you know, it took months or years to bring that about.

And so I think there's some good, like I've heard people talk about like the Rocky movies, like if people have seen those, you know, you have like Rocky, like the training montage of like him doing pushups and sit ups and running and, you know, hitting and it's like, it's cool. It's like, wow, that's like, that's awesome. Like I want to do that. But it's like, you want to do that for like a year every freaking day. Like.

It's exhausting. And I think it's similar with these relationships. It's like, this does not happen And if you expect it to happen overnight, I think that's where a lot of like discouragement and like frustration comes is cause like our expectations are so off. But if we look at it more, like you said, it's like, like a home. Like the home is dilapidated. Like it's, there's like diseases. It's like not livable. We need to, we need to tear it down.

and we need to rebuild the foundation, make sure that's strong, and then we can slowly put up the walls wire the electrical, you know, the whole thing. So I think there's something powerful in that.

Cole (19:47)

yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. yeah, think a house is illustration for that, because you're right. There's so many little details that go into it. It's not going to be fixed quickly. think that in my own story for sure, not recognizing that this was going to be a years-long process was a huge stumbling block for all of us.

Joey Pontarelli (20:06)

Hmm.

Cole (20:06)

that we really kind of rushed into things too quickly thinking, well, it's going to be fast, so let's jump back into it. It's been a month. That's got to be long enough, And just immediately hitting exactly the same pain points that caused us to take the month in the first place.

Joey Pontarelli (20:17)

Yeah.

No, totally couldn't agree more. I love what you said just everything you're saying now. It made me think the business world, I remember hearing America, we're very like short-term thinking. And we think in terms of, you know, quarters and years. Whereas Chinese and other Asian countries their business, like philosophies, is more to think in like decades and centuries, which is so interesting.

And so I think like, you know, the lesson in that is like we're saying is we need to adjust our expectations. That's going to take time. You don't build something like overnight. You don't build a strong relationship overnight. So I think that's kind of freeing. know it has been for me when take that mindset. the other lesson I wanted to, mention in your story was just this like reality of being like a crutch to people, something that like kind of holds them up. I remember that happening with a.

multiple friends, to be honest with you, I was always the type, especially in high to just like when I saw my friends struggling, I wanted to help. I just wanted to help. to a degree where I got like overly involved and it got unhealthy to where they relied on me for their stability and you you can finish the story. So I remember situations where yes, I was able to prop them up like an actual physical crutch.

But in time I realized, wow, this is not healthy, this can't go on. And then when I stepped away, they often felt harder than they even would've if I was ever there to begin with. And so it was really like kind of hit you in the face lesson. so then, like you experienced too, I had to learn more about this thing called boundaries and why that's important. And if people haven't read the book, we have an episode that we actually summarize the book instead of taking like the four to six hours to read it.

We tried to summarize the main concepts in like 45 to 60 minutes. If you guys want to listen to that, we'll throw that in the show notes, but I couldn't agree more. think that's like one of the main lessons, skills, virtues, whatever you want to call we need to anyway, I wanted to mention that about the crutch because that was a very real experience for me.

Cole (22:14)

Oh yeah, no I totally relate to great when you're the crutch. For a while it works and you see the fruit in this person's life and then eventually you realize that you can't be their crutch forever they have to learn how to stand without you. If someone broke their leg and they never got off crutches again, that wouldn't be any good.

Joey Pontarelli (22:35)

Yeah, no, totally, totally. Like you don't rebuild those muscles and regain the youth. That's a great analogy too. I'm curious before we move on from this, there any like lessons or mistakes that you wish maybe you could have done a little bit differently? Like obviously if we went back, you probably would say, wish I would kind of kept healthier boundaries from the beginning and not been that emotional confidant. But I'm curious if like, I wish I would have said this or had this conversation or done this, anything like that can maybe help someone who's in that situation now.

Cole (23:03)

yeah, so when I first kind of pulled away from my family, moved out of the house, got my own place.

About six months later on, my mom noticed that I was pulling away and she was really hurt by that. But she was like, should we just take it like, should we just take a year where we don't see each other and like, you know, maybe text and catch up a little bit and leave it at that? And like, I should have said yes. That probably honestly would have shortened the difficulties we had by about a year in the end. But you know, at the time,

I couldn't say yes. couldn't. It felt so selfish and so impossible to agree to. I just said, don't know. But I wish, going back, that I just said yes and owned that and taken the space that I really needed rather than try and try and try again to pretend things were normal and be hurt when they weren't.

Yeah, I wish I really wish that I had just said yes at that point and you know learning the skill to say like to set boundaries and take space and advocate for myself in that way that was the lesson you know I wasn't ready then I'm a lot better at it now but yeah that's what I would say to someone going through it if someone someone says that to you just be honest

Be honest with yourself, if not with the other person. Yeah, I do actually need that.

Joey Pontarelli (24:23)

No, that's such a good lesson. And what I'm hearing you say basically, don't feel ashamed, don't feel guilty. Sometimes you take a step back, you need to retreat in order to move forward properly and rebuild like we were saying. So I think that's really powerful. just to be clear, like some people have misunderstood me.

and in some of our messaging, we're not saying to abandon your parents, we're not saying to just run from your family, we're not saying never talk to them again. Certainly there's situations that warrant that because things are so dangerous and toxic.

But by and large, the majority of cases, like we advocate for solely and appropriately with boundaries, rebuilding those relationships so you can have a great relationship. Like it's a whole thing. That's what I want with my parents. I know that's what you want with your parents. Like I think we all want And so, so yeah, I think that's an important distinction just for anyone who maybe has misunderstood that in the past, but moving on from there, curious. we'll kind of focus on the, maybe the rough and the bad for a second, and then we'll go further into the good and kind of how.

just grown and healed, curious, yeah, if you had a moment to, I mean, you've mentioned multiple things where you kind of realized like everything that you were going through, the dysfunction, the separations, the divorce, where it was like affecting you negatively. It sounds like you're a very self-aware person. Some people kind of have this like light bulb moment, like, wow, I didn't think it was affecting me. It's affecting me now. But I'm curious, like if you had a moment where you realized, wow, this is really weighing on me.

Cole (25:45)

my parents did to a certain extent advocate for therapy for like certainly with their dysfunction and with my own and so when they decided in October of 2019 that they were gonna get divorced I kinda thought yeah I really should find a therapist and I was kind of

Yeah, I was basically kind of being slow about it. And then in December of broke up with my girlfriend and one of my best friend's mom died. And...

Then I immediately got into another relationship, which was definitely a sort of rebound kind of thing. I realized, like, wow, this is a lot of stuff to be going on in my life on top of my parents divorcing, and I really need help. And so that was kind of a wake-up call, was able, thankfully, because it can be hard to find a therapist, I was able to.

Joey Pontarelli (26:19)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Cole (26:40)

find one and start in January of 2020. So I actually got to see her in person before COVID shut everything down.

Joey Pontarelli (26:47)

that makes sense. Okay, so there was like a level of like maybe denial or thinking like I'm okay, like things around me aren't good, but I'm good. Okay, that makes sense. And then yeah, man, I can't imagine going through that like triple, that trio of like trauma, tragedy, whatever you wanna call it. Dang, that's rough. I'm curious, like to whatever degree you wanna touch on this, like emotional problems you've struggled with.

bad habits that kind of became a coping mechanism for you, and then relationship struggles. So there's a lot there, but those are like the three categories, like emotional problems, bad habits, and relationship struggles, anything you want to share there.

Cole (27:19)

yeah, was definitely... Emotional problems for sure.

I remember, where did I read it? I'm a huge history buff, military history in particular. And I remember reading this about French soldiers at Verdun that maybe in this months long battle, this constant artillery fire, hundreds of thousands of people dying, and that eyes would go dull. author described it as like,

They thought that their feelings were also like vermin, like the fleas that needed to be picked off and squeezed away. That that was the only way they could cope. And to be honest, there were parts in high school, like around my parents' first separation, was a time where I was like, yeah, that's the thing. Like if I want to be like a real man, like that's what I need to do. I need to take my bad emotions and squash them like bugs and not feel and just like...

Joey Pontarelli (27:50)

Hmm.

Cole (28:09)

you know, perfectly logical so I can keep functioning at this high level and so on and so forth. Now I'm like, you poor, boy. You poor little foolish little boy. Right? And so I tried to just logic my way out of things and avoid my feelings. And then I also tried to cover it up with pornography. know, and that was effective in the short term, but also made me miserable.

And then, yeah, so I definitely fell on the idol side of relationships. Like, I really made, like,

Who's the guy who wrote Wild at Heart? John Eldridge. Yeah, John Eldridge. He talks about the myth of the golden-haired lass. There's the woman who's going to solve all of my problems. As Christians, we know that only God can do that. But I was like, I wasn't cool in high school. needed to work up the courage to actually ask a girl out. But when I finally did get in a relationship, I was like,

Joey Pontarelli (28:41)

John Eldredge.

Yeah.

Cole (29:03)

This is it, she's the one, like we're getting married. That didn't work out. Next girl. That's it, she's the one, we're getting married. And I did that four or five times before I finally, finally a girl broke my heart and it was COVID, my parents were getting divorced. And I was like, I need to slow down and just be single and grow in maturity and figure out my life.

Joey Pontarelli (29:28)

Yeah.

Cole (29:29)

And only then did God grant me the ability to meet the woman who became my wife. I really think those two were pretty tightly connected. Like, God was like, you're not ready for this girl yet.

Joey Pontarelli (29:40)

So good.

No, there's everything you mentioned I can relate to and have struggled in very similar ways. the stoicism piece, the kind of like solution to bad or messy emotions, quote unquote, bad or messy emotions. Um, I felt a similar pull on high school too. I remember just like, I don't really know what to do with all these emotions. Cause like, you know, broken

family and messy situation there. I really thought that like you, the goal was like to avoid the highs and the lows and just try to like stay somewhere in the middle. And it's interesting today to see you know, what I'm observing at least is like stoicism seems to be on the rise and there's certainly I think some virtue.

Cole (30:08)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (30:15)

in learning to master your emotions, not letting them control your behavior, certainly some good stuff in that. But yeah, I think the result for me, and I'm curious to hear what it was for you, that I kind of became, like a machine, someone who was very skeptical of emotion overall. didn't think that they were useful. didn't think that they were important. And life honestly became pretty dull for me when I...

tried to be emotionless. But yeah, I'm curious if there's anything else you would add to what you already said.

Cole (30:43)

Yeah, I agree need emotions. They are what give life its flavor, what give you your drive. And part of that like, you know, not knowing what I wanted. Like people would ask, like, what do you want for dinner? I'd be like, I don't know, you pick, man. Like, I don't want to deal with that kind of hassle. You know, and that's hard because especially as a teenager, like, everyone's asking you, what are you doing with your life? What are your hopes and dreams?

I don't know, get through this year at high school so I can go on to the next year, you know? and like, it's really been a struggle to just like let go of that and recognize like, I don't have to be afraid to figure out what I want. Like that's a good thing.

Joey Pontarelli (31:10)

Yeah.

Cole (31:22)

because that was definitely wants just lead to conflict and conflict leads to separation. I just want nothing, then I can live in harmony. not only is that boring, but that leaves you stuck because you have to want in order to change.

Joey Pontarelli (31:28)

Hmm.

So good. I love what you said. Want leads to conflict, conflict leads to separation. And that could like, yeah, scare you away from like really desiring things. So good. I found that with a lot of people like us from, you know, dysfunctional divorce families is that we often like don't know what we want or we really struggle with decisions. And I think there's two parts to it. The part of like not knowing what we want. I'm curious to hear your perspective on this. Is I think in part that we were

spent so much time not focusing on ourselves. We focus on our family, our siblings, our parents, like trying to like keep the peace, trying to help, So that's like.

You know, we can just not know what we want because we've never taken like the time to reflect and think like, what, you what are my desires? What are the things that brings me joy? What are the things that, you know, how would I want to have an impact on the world? Like, what do I feel like is my mission in life? What do I want to accomplish all those And then on the other end, I think there is with kind of like the indecisiveness, which obviously goes hand in hand, there can be this desire in us for maybe we didn't experience at home. And there can be a desire in us for surety, for certainty, which, again, maybe we didn't experience

at home because things were often ambiguous and we didn't know if like I'm I'm my dad gonna stay together, get divorced, or like what's gonna happen depending on the situation.

And so I've definitely seen both of those things play out and I experienced it myself. And so I think what you were describing too, of like finally having like some time to be like, no, I need to kind of like grow into my own person, my own identity, become a man, find my mission in life, find what I love, what I, brings me alive, what I feel like called to do with my life. That was like helpful for me. And then with the decisions, honestly, it was like more of a science of like, or maybe a science isn't the right word, but it was kind of like a skill development of like looking at people, especially mentors in my life.

who really good at making I think I've learned a lot from Jaco Willink. If people are familiar with Jaco, he wrote Extreme Ownership, he was a Navy SEAL And that's one of the things great about special operators I look up to those guys a lot. blessed to know a couple of They're just really good at making decisions.

And so there's a lot to learn from them too. And there's other people obviously in the business world that I've benefited yeah, I think those were kind of some of the antidotes to solutions to both of those struggles for me. my temperament to some degree helped as well, but I've walked with people or have people close to me maybe are a little bit more like not the...

you know, maybe type A were like, I love making decisions. And so anyway, those are some things that helped me kind of work ⁓ you know, what I wanted and learning how to make decisions better. yeah, I'm curious, does any of that resonate and any other like lessons or things that you would add to anyone listening who needs to hear it?

Cole (34:05)

Yeah, absolutely. this is an embarrassing story. So when I was like 15, we were on vacation my mom was like, all right, cool, we're going to let you pick what we do tonight. We're either going to go bowling or we're going to go mini And I just couldn't handle it. hit the wall, like, know, like I'll go for a walk. make the decision. I went for a walk. They were like, ah, that's been long enough. They went looking for me. I ran away from them.

no I can't can't and eventually my grandpa had to take me and sit me on his lap and I was you know I was felt like I was too big for that at that age but he had like this was really helpful he sat me on his lap and he said there's gonna be so many decisions in life sometimes it'll be you'll make the good choice sometimes you make the bad choice most of the time it just matters that you choose

Joey Pontarelli (34:31)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cole (34:52)

Yeah, it was a lot of hard work, know, like the first thousand times I did it, I hated it. But just like, you gotta make this, just make the next decision. Just do the next hard one, like, just pick a ch- like, honestly, like, roll the dice, flip a coin, whatever helps you, just make one, like, pick an option, and just do that enough times until you're comfortable with it. And I think that's, I think there's a lot of things in life, like-

You just have to find the thing that you can do that you're like, I did it. I made this decision, whatever it is, and see where you can build from there.

Joey Pontarelli (35:26)

See you again.

Joey Pontarelli (35:28)

If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but

a bit far behind you to just hear your advice and to hear your story since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restoredministry.com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restoredministry.com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes.

Joey Pontarelli (36:20)

I love it. I love it. Starting small, like, you know, what food you want to eat or restaurant or, know, whatever is small for that person. I love that. That's a great lesson. and one of the things that was helpful for me when it came to decisions to just picking up where you ⁓ just went was talking about how not every decision deserves the same degree of like deliberation, just thinking through it. You know, some, some decisions you can just make shooting from the hip. And like you you're that, love it. Your grandpa said,

maybe you make the wrong decision. It's like, maybe you order the food at the restaurant that you didn't really want or that wasn't like the best option on the menu. It's like, you know what? You're going to survive. You're at a restaurant, you're eating, you know, food and blessed to be there at all. so, so yeah, I think that that's been helpful for me as well. Cause I think I certainly can have the, I'm such a detailed person, so I can be in this situation where like, no, I want to make every decision like perfectly or do that well. And it's like, not every deserves that level of attention.

Cole (37:14)

there's actually something to be said that if you take that long for every decision that you're not doing it well you're wasting time that you could spend on something way more beneficial.

Joey Pontarelli (37:22)

I couldn't agree more. We'll link to this in the show notes as well. I won't go into it too much, but there's a really helpful exercise if you're making like a bigger life decision from Tim Ferriss, he's an author which you might be familiar with from The Business World. And one of the things that he says is that so often our decisions are because we afraid. We're just afraid.

And so said, instead of kind of like shying away from that and maybe like focusing on something else, he's like, no, actually push into that fear. And when you push into that fear, you could actually like address it and work through it. And so the quick version of this is he says you need to like go through essentially like three mini exercises. The first exercise is thinking through, okay, if this thing were to go terribly wrong, like the worst it could go, what would it look like?

And then you just like describe that. know, some people do like a sheet of paper, you do like three columns and you say in the first column, like what's worst case scenario? What could this look like if it goes Write down the bullet points of like, okay, well, you know, I could get hurt or this might happen, my heart might break, whatever the scenario really clear on that. Cause it's like, that's what you fear. Spell it out. What does it look like? Second column is, what could you do to prevent it from happening?

Like certainly situations, there's things you can do to like prevent the bad thing from happening. And so write those out. Well, I could do this. I could do that. know, whatever, you know, like if you're afraid of getting sick, it's like, I can maybe sleep more and take vitamins or whatever work out. Then the final column is where you say, okay, like this is the worst case scenario. I, I said what I'm going do to prevent it. But if I

can't prevent it. The final thing is I'm going to talk about how am going to recover and how long will it take? What is it going to require? know, sometimes that might be a monetary value if it's like a career option or you're buying something. Other times it might be more of like an emotional thing or a health thing. So that's it. That's his exercise. So basically summarize the video for you guys. Sorry to go so deep into this, but I hope it's helpful to everyone listening. And we'll link to like the video where he is in a Ted talk that he went through that whole exercise, but that's again, know, the three kind

of lists, the one less of worst case scenario, second less of what can you do to prevent it and third less of, you know, what can you do to recover and how long will that take? And he said, once you go through that, and I've done this myself, offered it to other people who found it really helpful. Once you go through that, you kind of have a clear vision of like, okay, this isn't as scary as I thought it was. And I now have a decent idea of like, you decision like is worth the risk. It's worth risking that worst case scenario and I'm gonna do the things to prevent it. And then if it happens, then I'll be okay.

Cole (39:44)

Yeah, now that's really brings to mind for me is freshman year college, remember friends were really stressed out about the first test in college. This is the rubber meets the road, first test of my abilities, how am going to do it? I was like, worst case scenario is test, you fail the class, you drop out of school, and you'll live in your parents' basement, right? Anything above that is a win.

Joey Pontarelli (40:06)

Yeah, there you go. So good, man. I love it. I was curious. So we're almost at the end of our time now, but I wanted to ask a little bit you mentioned you went to therapy and you found that helpful.

Were there any other helpful tools or tactics that helped you heal, helped you transform in a better, stronger you?

Cole (40:24)

Yeah, well, I this podcast was definitely one of them. I found this in the fall of 2020. healing to take this issue seriously, Joey. Just say, you deserve to have your parents be together, that anything less than that is a tragedy. And that was so freeing to There's so many different voices.

Especially when you see the marriage falling apart, you're like, yeah, mean, were so many problems. hard to be upset about that. But just to know, to have the freedom to say, yeah, this was wrong, and it's sad, and we don't have to stay there, but we can recognize that this shouldn't have happened. that was really freeing. And then on top of that, yeah, I mean,

So Boundaries by John Townsend and Henry Kraut is very helpful. I read basically their whole series. My particular favorite is one called How People Grow, which is just like, I mean, they're Christians, so it's like a Christian and psychology mix of just like how to grow as a person. Like just really, really, really good. And then yeah, I mean, listened to a lot of other podcasts. I joined a men's group.

And was actually, the nice thing was they were all people about my parents' And so I was able to, you know, they complained about their kids, I complained about my parents. We got to kind of see both sides of the issue. That was really helpful as well. And, just to be honest, you know, I was really looking for that sort of father figure in my

you know, because I had to take a step back from my own dad at that time. And that was, it was nice to have some, like, multiple men that age, just recognize that, you know, my life doesn't have to end up like my dad's. can end up all these different other ways.

Yeah, and I had a great pastor friend at that time who called me every week during COVID. And when we couldn't meet in person, he would call and then we could meet in person and just having like being able to talk to him and just open up about what was going on in my

just have extra listening ear that's just always so valuable, especially when you're in the middle of something and not looking at it with the benefit of hindsight.

Joey Pontarelli (42:26)

So good. I love all of that. And man, I'm so happy that we were able to serve you in that way and be, you know, one of the voices that we're consoling and helpful. And yeah, I'm really glad, you know, it's yeah, you're why we do this. So I appreciate it. Appreciate you saying that. You mentioned that, you know, people were really helpful. You mentioned friends before the pastor, you know, having all those people. I'm curious if you have any advice for people who

are in a situation where they feel like they don't have anyone to turn to. Like they, know, maybe feel, maybe it's not even true completely in their life, but they feel like, I don't know who to go to. I need to talk to someone, but I don't really know where to start. Yeah, any advice for someone in that situation?

Cole (43:06)

Yeah, I mean that is, it's a real thing. It's really hard, especially, you know, when so much of our lives are online now. You know, you can have like faux friendships online, and even real ones, but you know, there's something about meeting in person and, you know, knowing someone's name and face and not just their avatar. That's so, so helpful. So yeah, I mean, like what I would say like,

I wish I had a secular answer, but even if you're secular, there's thousands of churches across America. full of people, mostly over 50, who really want to see a young person in their midst. Someone at that church would love to into you and to listen to you and work with you. I know it can be intimidating to walk into a church that you've never been to. I certainly felt that way.

in college and stuff when I was trying to find a local church. mean, church groups. One that was helpful for me was...

I forget what it's called.

But anyway, there's gonna be ministries at different churches, know, set up around just being able to go in every week and share the misery in your life.

The first time you do that it can be really hard and intimidating, but the second time it's going to get easier. Anything you can do to go out and find... Actually, here's a good secular answer. Go on Facebook, they've got all these meetup Find something that interests you. It could be a sport, could be a hobby. Go to your local game shop. They've got Magic the Gathering nights at my local game shop.

Go there and meet friends, meet people, and next step for that you actually will do, try that. You've got to go out in the real world and meet some people. My hope and prayer for you is that you'll find safe people that you can really pour into. Take it slow. Don't spill your guts on the first day unless it's a 12-step program.

Joey Pontarelli (44:38)

Yeah.

Cole (44:57)

I'm sure that you'll eventually find people who are safe.

who you can share and open up with. that, unfortunately, you gotta get out there, but it's so worth

Joey Pontarelli (45:06)

yeah, I love that. And I think another thing too is kind of things that I learned in my experience. One was you could be mentored and helped by people who maybe aren't immediately in your life, which like I agree, like it's way better to be like in person if you can have that. But if you can't, like people who write books, people who have podcasts, people who, you know, even create content online.

and can source of like mentorship and help. But I think ultimately, like I totally agree that we wanna the in-person thing. It's gonna go much deeper and be much then also the other thing that I kinda had to challenge myself around sometimes, I'm not saying this is everyone's case, but sometimes we can kind of complain and think like, oh, I'm all alone and there's no one here to help me. And that could be true. I'm not putting people down in that situation.

But a lot of times, like if you look around, it's like, no, actually there's people in my life who, if I put some effort in, like we can build a friendship. If I put some effort in, you know, they could maybe mentor me. Like if I ask them to coffee and ask them for some advice or whatever, I've found that it's often just like more of the discomfort of doing it that's the barrier, not like the fact that there's no option absolutely on the table anywhere in your life. So I've had to challenge myself, be like, nope.

make the phone call, send the text message, invite them, follow up if they give them an out too. If they don't wanna do it, that's totally fine. But invest, and my mom would always say, be a friend. And I think there's so much truth to that too, that you don't just wanna just go into friendships and even mentorship relationships. Maybe they're a little bit different, but looking for like.

I want to receive, receive, receive, but hopefully there's some way of like reciprocating and giving back. And I found when you do that, like people, people will want to spend time around you. Not everyone, but you'll get your group of people. And so anyway, those are just kind of two challenges I had to issue to myself growing up.

Cole (46:47)

Yeah, I totally To be honest, the fear of trying is going to be the hardest part almost all the time. mean, yeah, you'll find someone, especially if you've got a shared interest. You know how many people play golf with other people just to hang out?

There's all sorts of activities. Just find one and you'll find people who will want to do it alongside you and who will like you for you and eventually hopefully will be able to listen to your story.

Joey Pontarelli (47:02)

Yeah.

Love it. Yeah. your parents didn't remarry, did they?

Cole (47:16)

Actually, yes. I just found out, yeah, so my, they both eloped last year. So my mom eloped, yeah, last Valentine's Day and I just found out that my dad and his new wife eloped right after Christmas this past year. So, yeah. Really fresh.

Joey Pontarelli (47:17)

They did, okay.

Wow.

Wow, okay, so this is pretty fresh for you. ⁓ How's that,

yeah, yeah, how, to whatever again you're comfortable sharing, how's that experience been for you? Because if I'm honest, I know people, I people close to me who have gone through the whole and kind of step family thing, but I haven't personally, so I'm curious, what's that been like for you? What are you thinking or feeling?

Cole (47:52)

It was really hard, especially at first, to even wrap myself around that idea. Like, my parents with somebody else, my parents dating, my married to somebody else. I have a stepmom, I have step It's a lot to get your head around. Just give it time.

I will say especially at first I was hyper paranoid. was like, yep, nope, there's the same problems that were in their first marriage are gonna come up and they're just gonna like this marriage is gonna crash and burn and I'm gonna sit there and say I told you so and it's gonna be terrible yeah, I would say you know, those thoughts might be justified, they might not, but they're not gonna make you happy. They're gonna bring you nothing but misery.

It's not your job to make sure that your parents' second marriage is working. For me, please don't try. and to be honest, like, it has actually opened some new beauty into my life. To see my parents, to see them happy again and see them...

see the ways that this new relationship, see the good in this new relationship, even if I'm, even if it's hard, recognizing that there still can be some good and some beauty that comes out of it. if you open yourself up to it, you'll get to experience it. And if you close yourself off from it and bury your head in the sand and say, won't be happy until my parents get back together.

Well, I felt that and I'm sorry that you're in that position and unfortunately that path only leads to misery. I'm sorry that that's the reality.

Joey Pontarelli (49:24)

Yeah.

speaking the truth, man, appreciate that and thanks for being so honest about it. And that makes sense, kind of the mixed emotion coming along with like that, that reality. And I've heard some of the things from friends and things. But speaking of kind of beauty coming out of brokenness, I'm curious toward the end of our conversation.

Yeah, what has the transformation been like for you? So we talked about maybe some of the things you did to heal and grow, but bring me up to speed on like, what's good in your life now? How have you grown and stronger because of everything that you've been through? I know you got a lot of good, beautiful things happening.

Cole (49:55)

Yeah, I mean the main thing is that I got married. I've got a six-year-old daughter. She's amazing. are amazing. ⁓ And that's really been healing too, just like getting to see family members care for this little baby girl and just see them go to pieces and light up in new ways. Babies are magical. They make even the most gruff and...

closed off, people open up just a little bit. And that's amazing. Yeah, and being able to rebuild to whatever level. My relationship with my family members, it's been just practically helpful in a sense because like it or not, your parents are your main source of financial support and advice and so on and so forth. as a parent, childcare. I mean, that's huge too.

And so a lot of beauty from being able to get some forgiveness and healing with my family and for myself just honestly having a deeper relationship with God, going through this sort of thing and recognizing that God was with me every step of the way was priceless. all the skills and skills I had to learn and the maturity that I had to grow into.

to deal with the mess that I was in. Yeah, I mean, just so valuable. it's a work in progress, and hopefully I'm slowly getting better at it as time goes on. Yeah, just recognizing that even making decisions that at one time were so impossible that I couldn't make the most trivial decision. Actually doing that and being comfortable with making, you know, sometimes...

very impactful decisions at work or whatever. just, yeah, just being comfortable with that and accepting that they won't always go my way, but if I make no decisions, then they'll never go my

Yeah, healing and growth is possible and you can really build a beautiful life.

Joey Pontarelli (51:47)

I love it. love it. And I love just the fact that you've taken action. Like you didn't stay stuck even if you felt stuck. You moved and you're trying to build something beautiful along the way. And I think that's like the most that anyone can do who has been through trauma and endured a lot of dysfunction. It's like, just keep moving. Just, you know, go like seek the healing, do the work.

to be better, stronger, be virtuous and then attempt to live that life that you're called to live and along the way you will figure it out, especially with God's help. So, love that. Couple of final questions. One, you could speak honestly to your parents and let's say you're having a conversation with them, I'm curious, what would you want them to know if you're comfortable sharing?

Cole (52:29)

Yeah, but I love them and that.

I realized that they were over their head and that I don't blame them for anything.

glad that I took the space that I needed and I'm glad that our relationship is better now.

Yeah, that's what I'd say.

Joey Pontarelli (52:43)

Beautiful. you've been amazing. I wanted to ask if people wanted to reach out to you, wanted to get in touch with you, maybe ask you a question, get some advice, what's the best way for them to contact you?

Cole (52:54)

Yeah, probably best way would be via email. My email is healthcjh, that's the word, health, and then cjh at gmail.com. You'd think that I made that for this show, but I made that for ninth grade health class thinking I'd never use it again, and here we are.

Joey Pontarelli (53:10)

I love it. Oh, you should have seen some of my emails back in the day.

Cole (53:15)

yeah. Everyone's got that first email address they regret. At least mine's not too cringe.

Joey Pontarelli (53:21)

100 % Mine pretty much is but maybe we'll save that for another time Alright man, you're amazing bro. So good to talk with you. Thank you. Thank you And I just wanted to give you the final word as we usually do what this final encouragement and advice Would you leave with everyone listening, especially maybe the younger you out there who's listening right now?

Cole (53:25)

you

Yeah, I'd just say, I'm sorry you're going through what you're going through, but it does get better. you goal in life and you can achieve that goal. If that's what you want, just keep working at it and you'll see yourself getting closer building the character that you need to achieve that goal. That's what I would say.

Joey Pontarelli (54:06)

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever app you use. You will avoid missing future episodes and that helps us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcast.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#148: Why You're Anxious, Tired, & Sick—and What to Do About It | Jackie Mulligan

So many of us feel depleted and exhausted, yet we might not know why. This is especially true for those of us from divorced or broken families. Research shows that children of divorce typically have worse physical health and more emotional problems. 

But thankfully, that doesn’t have to be your story. Going from depleted to healthy on every level is not only doable—but simpler than you think, according to my guest.

In this episode, we discuss:

• 9 often-overlooked pillars of health that could be sabotaging your wellness.

• The top 4 areas of health where most people need to start. 

• Quick and simple tips you probably haven’t heard to feel and be your best.

If you’ve struggled with your health in any way or just desire to be healthier, this episode is for you.

Enroll in Reform Online

For 10% off, use code: RESTORED10 (valid until June 15, 2025) Comment end  

Visit ReformWellness.co

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide: The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

View Restored’s Resources

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Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Jackie (00:00)

Everybody's busy.

Everybody drinks a lot of coffee and we're just becoming used to feeling sick and tired all the time It's just become the norm, you know Not having a healthy digestive system not being able to sleep through the night Like these are things that are very very common my goodness people will say to us all the time like wow This is really radical and we'll respond and say no what's radical is how we're living now. This is radical We're living in a rat race is radical bodies are designed to heal themselves. We shouldn't need all these other factors

Wow.

Joey (00:31)

You're a master

at this. This is so helpful and I love it. ⁓

Jackie (00:34)

have

nine wellness pillars that we use to define.

Joey (00:37)

What are some of maybe the the misconceptions or myths around like health and wellness?

Jackie (00:42)

You know, we are the ones who overcomplicate it. Giving your body some predictability and some consistency is a really great way to maintain balance and order. We are all overcommitted. We are stretched and our expectations are so unrealistic of ourselves.

Joey Pontarelli (00:59)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Jackie Mulligan. After years of stress and compromised health, Jackie found a secret that led to freedom and on every level. Now she helps others find the same through reform, a Catholic functional medicine and holistic wellness apostle, which she founded and now leads as their CEO.

Through their week course and live sessions, Reformist helped thousands, priests, moms, CEOs and more heal mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. Jackie holds three master's degrees, one in in secondary education and a third master's, which you'll soon hear about in this show. She's also a functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner, holistic nutritionist, certified nutritionist consultant and so much more.

I think the reality for so many of us is so many of us feel depleted, we feel exhausted, yet we might not really know why, be able to put our finger on it. And this is especially true for those of us who come from divorced or broken, dysfunctional families. For example, research shows that children of divorce typically have worse physical health and more emotional problems. But thankfully that does not have to be your story. Going from depleted to healthy on every level is not only doable, but it's simpler than you think, according to Jackie.

In this episode, we discuss the nine often overlooked pillars of health that could be sabotaging wellness. We talk about the top four areas of most people need to start. Jackie offers some quick and simple tips you probably haven't heard to feel and be your best. And if you come from a dysfunctional or a divorced Jackie shares some powerful truth that could rewire how you see yourself and what you believe is possible. And Jackie opens up too about the moment that just changed everything for her in her health journey.

and the breakthrough that you had in that moment. If you've struggled with your health in anywhere, you just desire to be healthier, episode is for you.

Now in this episode we do talk about God and faith and if you don't believe in God you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast and so wherever you're glad you're here. If you don't believe in God my challenge to you would be this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (03:16)

Jackie, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you.

Jackie Mulligan (03:18)

thank you so much, Joey. I'm grateful to be here.

Joey Pontarelli (03:21)

For everyone listening who doesn't know reform wellness is, what you guys do, would you give us a quick explanation?

Jackie Mulligan (03:27)

Sure. We are Catholic functional medicine practice and holistic wellness apostolate. And so we define health as the state of the body and the soul together. And we invite the people that we work with to return to a life of simplicity centered on Christ. And so essentially we help people reclaim wellbeing, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically, to help them become the best versions of themselves.

so that they can experience the fullness of life the Lord promises us. And so work with priests and religious, but we work with mostly laity, in person and online from all over the globe.

Joey Pontarelli (04:08)

Beautiful. And who's the typical person you work with in terms of like lay people? Is there a certain age or is it kind of run the gamut? Men, women, just curious.

Jackie Mulligan (04:15)

Well, we work with mostly women, but it's interesting because the men that we do work with will say, wow, guys really need this. Do you work with more men? But I don't know if it's a timing thing or just that.

sometimes reform in itself appeals to more women in our approach, but we do typically work with women, though we are welcome to working with anybody. so, yeah, I would say that women between 30 and 50 are like main clientele, but certainly not limited. I think some of our favorite pairs to work with are like mother daughters, which is really beautiful.

But really, Joey, we have, you know, CEOs and athletes and moms and like I said, religious, you know, everybody really comes through for different reasons. And not just looking for physical healing, but actually I would say mostly for other kinds of healing. And it's really beautiful for us to be able to help all these different walks of life.

Joey Pontarelli (05:12)

Beautiful, no I love that. And I'm curious, why do you care? Why do you care about this? Why does this matter so much to you?

Jackie Mulligan (05:19)

You know, I was just at dinner last night and I was with the Dean of the school that I'm about to receive my, my master's in theology. just handed in my thesis and it was a really just a huge milestone for me. And we were talking a little bit about reform and she, she stopped me and she was like, you really love what you do. And it really is true. And I feel so very grateful for that gift. I feel such purpose in,

in what I'm doing. And I think it's because I had such a personal experience in the beginning of starting reform. And that was my own realization that if I wanted to be holy well, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, I really needed to put the Lord at the center of my life, to not compartmentalize him, to not give him access to some areas of my heart or some areas of my healing or some areas of my life.

but rather give him access to everything, which he saw anyway, but gives us free will. And so I love it because I really do see people healing. It's so much more than even what we offer, but it's watching what the Lord does in people's lives. Like when they give their yes and live from a place where they're really embodying their truest.

identity as a beloved daughter or son of Christ and really allowing themselves to tangibly believe that and feel that, but then approach their healing from that place, knowing who the Lord is that nothing is impossible for him. Like really amazing things happen. go through all of the barriers that we once put up and we begin to desire to live better.

And I watch that every day, Joey. I watch people say yes to the Lord in big and small ways. And I am really a facilitator. I'm guiding people toward the ultimate healer. I'm certainly not healing I do love it so much and it's such a gift. And I care because I want people to go to heaven. And I want them to be healthy while they're here and experience everything that we get to offer earth.

I fully alive means that we receive the gift of the joy and the sorrow. It's not just perfect, but it's like the cross is being fully alive and that is the joy sorrow, right? And so St. Augustine has a quote attributed to him that would maybe summarize, you know, my real why. that is that,

Joey Pontarelli (07:33)

Hmm.

Jackie Mulligan (07:48)

taking care of your body as if you're gonna live forever. So really revering the gift of your body, but then taking care of your soul as if you're gonna die tomorrow. So there's this like sobering invitation to tend to your whole person that you're prepared for longevity and heaven. And that's really how I believe people will be motivated to tend to their wellbeing in a very holistic but realistic way.

Joey Pontarelli (08:14)

love all that and no I could tell you care so deeply and it's beautiful. Congrats on the finishing your masters and you see it so often that you know I think I'll speak as a man it's so easy to compartmentalize life like I know people who maybe are very spiritually strong but their bodies are kind of falling apart or on the flip side I know people who they're completely ripped like they're super strong healthy like in that regard but

they take care of their body to such a pristine level, their souls are not in good shape. And so I'm sure you see that left and right. So it's so cool that you're trying to bring that balance, trying to bring that harmony, trying to just help people live that life fully alive. And other thing I know we were talking before we recording about just like life and how it's hard. I it's an important paradox to acknowledge that life can be hard, there can be challenges.

But you could also live it in a really full and joyful way. It's not meant to be drudgery constantly. It's not meant to be something that there's no joy in. It's not all discipline. There's so much goodness in life. There's so much beauty. There's so much truth. So yeah, that's kind of a paradox I guess I've been wrestling with a little bit lately of how life can be hard, but it can be so good and so beautiful. And that's something I've realized, I'm getting married and starting a family too, how my life did not get easier, certainly.

married, know having kids and everything but but in so many ways has gotten better And so I think there's an important lesson there, but yeah, I love to hear your thoughts on any that

Jackie Mulligan (09:37)

Well, it certainly doesn't get easier and I think that that's sometimes the fear of like, why would I change if this might get harder? It's already hard or I'm already suffering. So if I allow the Lord to be a part of this healing, what if he doesn't do what I want him to do? And what if I don't get better? What if I suffer and sacrifice even more and I'm worse off?

That's a very understandable fear, certainly. But I think what we're all really desiring, Jo, if we peel back all these layers, is a deep connection and intimacy with the Lord a meaningful, purposeful life. And I think our vocations really bring that out. And what we have to do is not only reorient our priorities toward our vocation, but first, going back to identity,

reorienting our lives to first have a relationship with the Lord. And I know not everyone who listens has a relationship with the Lord. And so even just that curiosity of, you know, what am I truly hungry for? What am I yearning for? And am I expecting this fulfillment that I might be only able to find in place to come from people or places or things or

quote unquote And so what you likely learned entering into different aspects of your vocation as a husband and father is that you have to reorient your posture toward the duties being served first, first of course toward the Lord, but then toward your wife and then family and then your work. And so I think that when those are

out of order, we become out of order, like literally broken, and, and sick. and so maybe it's not easy, but we can simplify it. And I don't think we actually ever really want the easy way, but we want the, feels right. What feels peaceful? What feels, like there's true connection. Cause things can be hard, but when you're doing it with someone,

you know, the yoke is lighter. so first, you know, are we trying to just be self-sufficient and self-reliant and do it all on our own? Or are we allowing the Lord and others to help us even in the midst of the hard? So those are just a couple of thoughts on what I would say on life being hard and the easy way as well.

Joey Pontarelli (11:53)

I love that. I recently gave a talk to high school students on this topic of life being hard and pain and everything. And there was a mom, a woman who shared a video from, I think one of the former coaches of the Duke women's basketball team. And she had this awesome couple minute clip. We'll link to it in the show notes about how life doesn't get easier, you just get better at hard. And I thought that was really brilliant, kind of summarize some of what we're talking about here. The other thing I just wanted to mention,

I love how you have a definition of health because I think so often we talk about health, the wellness, whatever, but we never really know quite what we're talking about. And so I love that you have that. I think it's so important to have that blueprint. But I'm curious, what are some of maybe misconceptions or myths around health and wellness that maybe we fall into believing that are kind of harmful?

Jackie Mulligan (12:39)

we let things that are part of defining our health fully define our health. And so it's the scale or our body composition or our bank account how many friends we have, followers on social media. I think sometimes these indicate maybe how well we are doing or our health.

reframe that in a lot of ways at Reform. We have nine wellness pillars that we use to define our health because there are so many different ways that the world invites us to measure our health that I think are not fully indicative of our whole person well-being. And so we have faith at the center of all of our pillars. And so that's the first one. And the eight other ones are sleep, stress management, personal growth, nutrition.

play, functional movement, community, and space. So we take all of these different pillars and we help people to approach them not only with the Lord, but with the motivation to open to letting the Lord inform their decisions. So for example, as we approach nutrition, know, there are

at this point, gazillion different diets we could follow and a different, a lot of different ways that could motivate our macros or our weight or, a lot of different factors that can contribute to our choices in nutrition. we ask people to simplify it in the sense of how would you eat if you remembered that you're a beloved daughter or son of Christ? You know, how would you choose to nourish your body?

if you really rooted in your truest identity and if you want it to be healthy physically and spiritually. the truth is that most of us know how we ought to eat. We know we ought to eat real whole foods. We are the ones who overcomplicate it it really doesn't have to be complicated. Now, nutrition and food can be medicine and there are certain seasons where certain foods can help us more than others. But intuitively, Joey, most people know that

sugar isn't going to make them more healthy or that alcohol isn't going to make you more healthy. And so, there isn't like a good or bad, but rather approaching the wellness pillars, in a rightly ordered way to say, well, if I really understand who I am and who the Lord is, then I would choose to nurture my body, in a way that would really be life giving. And, and I do find that people stop focusing so much on

the scale macros or about the foods that they're eating or not eating and focus more on like the freedom that comes with their identity. And often when using nutrition as example, because it's one of the most common ways that people measure their health. But when people are focusing on a diet or on their nutrition, even if it's for a good reason, like to heal their gut,

Sometimes that becomes like the center of their life, becomes the idol, like the only thing they're thinking about is their nutrition and there's not a place for the Lord or for healing to happen that attachment and control.

Joey Pontarelli (15:39)

That makes so much sense. And I love what you said at the beginning, especially too, just kind of misattributing, or using the wrong measuring stick for health and wellness and all that, because I think, yeah, so common. But I love everything you said. I'm curious, of the nine pillars, what are the ones that are like the most immediately helpful for most people? Like, obviously, I'm sure it varies from, you know, this person to that person, but what are the ones that you guys see like, ⁓ you know, typically these like one, two, or three,

are the most immediately helpful.

Joey Pontarelli (16:07)

Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people. And it was really helpful for me personally.

In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating, overstressing, or focusing too much on the scale. And he gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today.

And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally.

Jackie Mulligan (16:46)

Yeah, the ones that we have to do every day. So faith, prayer every day, sleep and nobody gets enough of it. ⁓ And really nourishment, nutrition, nourishing our bodies. I would even venture to say that stress management comes up right after that. know, people come and think we're gonna go right into movement or tell them exactly what to eat and we don't even get there until like that, you know, the second part of our course, but.

really approaching their health of first to say, are a body and a soul together. You're not a body without a soul. They're not two different parts of you. They're one whole and one affects the other. And so it's almost like why you're not sleeping or why you're not praying is more important than what you're doing when you're praying or what you're eating. And so we're looking at the real motivation, the why, and we have found

that when your why is connected to the Lord and heaven longevity, you're more...

able and willing to be consistent than if it was something fleeting like I want to lose 10 pounds or I want to make X amount of money. Those things are motivating in a very temporary way. And so it is beautiful to give it real meaning and depth. But I would say that most people need, we start with their sleep and their prayer life and we see so much change. see more, we see weight loss happen without even touching nutrition and just looking at

prioritizing sleep and prioritizing the relationship with prayer.

Joey Pontarelli (18:16)

I love that. I was listening to Gary Brekka. He's like a biohacker for anyone who isn't familiar. biology and did whatever degree in that. And then he was working for an insurance company predicting how many months people had to live. And he just learned a lot about health by looking at all these different places. So some people maybe don't follow all of what he said, but I found a lot of what he said helpful. And one of his lines is that belief disconnected from biology. Like biology and belief are like

so tightly wound and I also love that like the body soul combination how we're yeah certainly we need meaning we need grace we need all those things but curious in all those like four that you mentioned you know sleep nutrition faith and you know stress management let's put that in there too what's like one tip that you would give to everyone listening maybe in each of those if yeah you pick where to start but I'm curious if they had like one quick tip if you're like passing someone on the street what would you say to help them improve in that area

Jackie Mulligan (19:10)

Yeah, of course. For faith, I would start there because we need the Lord. We need him and in order to have a connection with him and to invite him into our healing and to not do this on our own, we need to pray. And so we recommend only praying every day, but praying early. So prioritizing that first things first. So prioritizing prayer before you touch your cell phone, before you start answering emails.

give him the first fruits and we recommend 30 minutes a day. You might want to work your way up to that. and there's no formula. you know, there's a lot of different, really beautiful ways to, to pray. but yeah, starting with prayer early and often, to reorient your day and to hand over your day to the Lord. You know, Joey and I were just speaking before we started the episode of how we like to come into the day with our own plan. And when that gets changed, you know, sometimes it can feel.

Frustrating or disrupting, but the truth is that that's the way it is every day. We just think we have control. And so it's so beautiful to hand over keys back to the Lord who has the keys anyway. And that's a really beautiful thing to do in the morning to hand over your worries, to offer your intentions and to prioritize the things that might be on your plate that day. So that's how I would start with faith. With sleep.

Absolutely prioritizing a time to unplug and having a consistent bedtime and wake time so that our body has so many different things that it has to do during the day to sort of manage your stress and the things that are so unpredictable that giving your body some predictability and some consistency is a really great way to maintain balance and order.

but to also allow you to have adequate rest and sleep. So this might sound crazy to some who don't get a lot of sleep, but we recommend seven and a half to nine hours, minimally, for adults. I think a great time to unplug around nine, nine thirty and getting to bed around 10. The earlier you can unplug, the better. The less time you have with blue

which can disrupt the production of melatonin, the better. that's, that's sleep, nutrition. This sounds a little bit too straightforward sometimes, but I don't think enough people do it. And so one of our recommendations is to sit down for your meals for 20 minutes, not eating on the go, not eating, ⁓ while you're working or in front of a screen or driving or commuting. but rather sitting down for your meals.

saying a quick prayer of gratitude for the food that you're about to literally going to fuel your body for the day. ⁓ but also it helps you to slow down and chew your food and give adequate time for digestion. Gut health is like the root of disease these days. And, ⁓ I think it's a lot of, because of how we're eating, ⁓ or maybe even more so than what we're eating, but also, Joey, if you think about it, you would

Joey Pontarelli (22:03)

Hmm.

Jackie Mulligan (22:06)

want to put more nourishing foods on your plate if you're going to be sitting down and presently eating and allowing yourself to nourish slowly. And sometimes I think we don't pay attention to what we're eating because we're just eating it on the go and it's just out of convenience. so sitting down for your meals sounds relatively straightforward and almost overly simplistic, but there's so much that can happen in being present and sitting down with your food.

All right, we have one more that I'll go over, stress management. So stress management, I think you have to know what your stressors are. So one of the most inconvenient things is to pause and actually identify what is on your plate. Like what are your stressors, what's on your plate? And so taking the time to really define, these are the top three things I'm stressed out about. And being very, very honest about can you control any of those stressors?

Joey Pontarelli (22:31)

I love all that. Yeah, this is great.

Jackie Mulligan (22:59)

And if you can, what it take taking one step toward that, that stressor most people will realize that, they're stressed and they don't, skip this step and they just start doing something just to get something accomplished rather than the thing that, that actually is urgent and important. and so really identifying what's urgent, what's important and what you have control over. Commonly we see people stressing about things that are

not in their control, that it's God's business. They need to hand it over to him, that somebody else's cross that they can't fix. So identifying where you maybe need to hand it over in prayer or to delegate or ask for help. And just that small five minute reflection can often reduce stress, but also help you to see that your mind might be making something bigger than it is, or that you have very little control over the worries that are keeping you.

stressed.

Joey Pontarelli (23:52)

So good, wow, you're a master at this. This is so helpful and I love it. So if I got this all right, let me see if I got it all right. So prayer 30 minutes a day before phone, before email, before screens and work and everything like that. With sleep, get to sleep by 10 p.m. at least, start shutting down an hour or so before, if I maybe heard that wrong. Don't use blue light if you can to help your melatonin production so you can fall asleep and have a restful.

night and then get up at the same time every morning if you can. When it comes to nutrition, sit for at least 20 minutes to eat your meal. Don't eat on the go. Don't eat in front of a screen. And then when it comes to stress, just really identify what are the stressors, what's controllable, what's not. Control the controllables and then leave the rest to God. So did I get that?

Jackie Mulligan (24:35)

Absolutely. Yeah, you did. You're a good student,

Joey Pontarelli (24:36)

Awesome, love it.

Trying to learn,

no, I need this too. Cause yeah, and on that last note, I think it's so easy, especially if you overcommit or have the tendency to overcommit like me, ⁓ that you can, yeah, just kind of run ragged, like you said, and just be on autopilot to where you're just like, you're not even breathing. I find myself at time, like if I like feel my body, I'm like literally tense. And so I think it's helpful to step back and to think through like, okay, you what do I need to focus on? What's like you said, the most important.

the most leveraged item that's gonna help me. So anyway, love all of that. was curious, kind of shifting gears a little bit, about like the nervous system. So I know we can't spend too much time here, but I'm curious, like, know, talk to me like I'm a third grader and teach me a little bit about the basics about the nervous system that might be helpful on the content and the courses that you guys have.

Jackie Mulligan (25:20)

you

Sure. So we have two parts of our nervous system, our parasympathetic and our sympathetic. So our parasympathetic is our rest and digest, and that's where we should be living most of the time. Our sympathetic was our fight or flight. that is if basically if we've experienced a stressor, if, you know, somebody ran a red light or you're being chased by an animal, like you would tap into the fight or flight and then you would quickly recover and go back into

your rest and digest or your parasympathetic. that is how we are designed. Our modern world lives in their sympathetic and sometimes taps into their parasympathetic. And so I'm actually gonna connect this to something you just said about overcommitment because we are all overcommitted. We are stretched and our expectations are so unrealistic of ourselves. And I think what we often see at reform

is want to skip over the basics because it feels too simple and they think I have to do something harder. the recommendation I just gave you, they sound like, oh, I kind of knew that. And that's like relatively simple. Like I can pray every day and I can unplug, but nobody's doing it. And so we want to do these harder things. We want to train for a marathon or lift really heavy, you know, say yes to more and more commitments, which aren't bad things.

but they need to happen after we have the foundations in place. And what we help people do is literally set a new foundation with consistency and prioritizing a simple life where things happen at the same time or in the same way every day, where you're literally living a daily rhythm, which is how we were intended to live. And then you can fill it in with other yeses, but your first yes is to the Lord, to health, and to heaven. Like those yeses happen every day.

And then you can give other yeses to additional things on your capacity. And, I think that's the only way we can really live in our parasympathetic. Otherwise, as you say, we can just say yes to everything. And we're sort of just like a ping pong ball. You forget to breathe and you're just reacting and surviving. And like, we were not meant to be in survival mode. You know, we can be in our sympathetic and seasons of, big traumas or big stressors, but

you're designed to then go back into your parasympathetic and like recover and rest and not the other way around. And so sadly we see almost everybody that comes through our door completely depleted, stressed out, exhausted, they're not even realizing that they are. What we have deemed as normal is that everybody's busy. Everybody drinks a lot of coffee. Everybody, you know, escapes when they're

Joey Pontarelli (27:55)

Mm.

Jackie Mulligan (28:04)

you know, into things that really don't make us healthier. When they need a little adventure or fun, and rather than being childlike, it ends up being childish. And we're just becoming used to feeling sick and tired all the time. It's just become the norm, you know, being reliant on coffee or medications.

Not having a system, not being able to sleep through the night. Like these are things that are very, very common. If you're sitting around the table with your family or friends, like everybody would, would say one of those things. And what we need to normalize is being healthy and for our bodies to live in the way that they were intended, but also to, have days that were at the pace that, that they were intended to live. so, you know, Joey, people will say to us all the time, like, wow, this is really radical. And.

will respond and say, what's radical is how we're living. Now, this is radical. We're living in a rat race is radical, but not living simply.

Joey Pontarelli (28:59)

Love it. couldn't be true. Yeah, gosh, so much there. I do want to touch on a couple more things before we close down. ⁓ Hormones. So hormones are obviously something that are being talked about a lot now and people have hormonal imbalances or all these problems that will come up. So yeah, I'm curious if you would teach me again, like I'm a third grader on hormones and like how we can get in an optimized state there.

Joey Pontarelli (29:21)

If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources, or click on the link in the show notes.

Jackie Mulligan (29:50)

I don't want to oversimplify it, but maybe I will in the sense that our body and starting with our hormones will be in order when we give it the environment in which they can be orderly, meaning that we're getting enough sleep, that we're eating enough and eating consistently nourishing foods. The number one thing that affects our hormones is stress.

so that we're managing our stress. And so our bodies, again, shouldn't need to predict, is Joey gonna sleep tonight? Is Joey gonna nourish me today? Are we gonna be working 14 hours or are we gonna have a little bit of a rest time? There needs to be predictability day and consistency so that there can be order and bodies are designed to heal We shouldn't need all these other factors.

but the best way to manage, your, your hormones and to keep, regulated is to have a daily rhythm and consistency. you can look, nature teaches us this, Joey, where, know, when, when it's sunlight, that's really when we should be out and, doing, and when it's a dark out, this is where we should be resting.

and so we can learn a lot from, from the natural world, but even our circadian rhythm where every 24 hours we're given the opportunity to begin a new, but also, the day light and the darkness, like help us to know when it's time to shut down and when it's time to slow down. and we sort of have just modernized all of this and just keep going until we say stop.

And that affects and really disrupts all of our natural hormones.

Joey Pontarelli (31:21)

Okay, no, it makes so much sense. And there's so much I wanna say. One, I was just thinking of just how depleted we all are on so many levels. And I think that just, it makes so much sense that if you kind stop the depletion, start to nourish yourselves in whatever way that might look like, like we're talking about, then you're gonna be happier, you're gonna be healthier. I bet your emotions fall too with people being depressed or anxious all the it makes so much sense. yeah, I...

I had to kind of face this in the last year to some extent because I took this, I went to some physical therapy for my shoulder. I tweaked it, working out and the therapist is like very holistic and she was like wanting to know like, it seems like you're, you you present yourself as like being pretty calm, but interiorly she's like, I wonder if like you're kind of living your life and like the sympathetic. And so like in that fight or flight mode, and I took an assessment, like kind of self assessment that she gave me. And I realized like, my goodness, like,

So much of my life is like you said, lived in that. So I've been trying to like learn to, you know, to do what you've said. But so I'm really excited to go through the course and make use of what you guys offer. But on that note, I'm curious if people are wondering like, yes, I need this. Like, this is so important. Like struggling in this way or that way with sleep or hormones or, you know, nutrition or, you know, whatever, faith, especially. so how do, what do you offer? Like, how, how do I get it?

Jackie Mulligan (32:39)

Sure. We have an online course called Reform Online, and that's really the first way to begin working with us. So it's 12 weeks. It's essentially self-paced in that you can watch the courses as you're able throughout the 12 weeks. But we also offer live sessions throughout each month. And so there's ways to engage with us live throughout the course, and then also there's prerecorded classes.

we have a cohort starting in June 2nd, Joey, that we're actually just launching today. So it's perfect timing. ⁓ and, it's, it's going to be everything we offer in our foundational course, which is, is going deeper into all the pillars that of health that I named earlier. But we also have a theme in addition to that, which is on metabolic health and body composition. So that will, we'll be focusing on that this summer. And it also includes.

a private consultation with myself or Dr. Bridget. So a nice way to have some one-on-one personalized attention and care, but also to journey with a community toward Christ-centered healing and Christ-centered wellness. So I would say starting with our course, if you're not quite ready or you want to learn more about reform, we have our Instagram page where we share free content.

all the time throughout, actually after Lent, because we're offline for Lent right now. But on our website, we have a tab also that is an events tab, and we offer quarterly workshops on different topics, free webinars every single month. So there's a lot of different ways to get to know more about reform. And then certainly, if people are interested in our course, that would be the best place to fully dive in.

Joey Pontarelli (34:09)

it so good and I'm curious how many people have you served and are there any neat stories that are kind of top of mind of like amazing transformations that you've seen?

Jackie Mulligan (34:17)

Yeah, we have journeyed with thousands of people now, which is just such an incredible gift for us and from really all corners of the globe. We almost have lost count of the amount of countries now that we've worked with. It's just truly, it's humbling and it's amazing and it's such a gift from the Lord to even show us, not everybody comes from the same background or beliefs or comes with the same health ailments.

but it's just showing how ⁓ as a body of Christ, we all need him and we all need healing, which is really beautiful. I think that when I see a father or a mother come to us who are depleted and they have somebody in their life that needs healing, whether it's a spouse, whether it's a child, and their first initial yes toward reform is that they want to learn so they can help the other person in their life, but...

One of the first things we teach is that if you want to reform someone else, you have to start with yourself and let the Lord reform them. so there's this beautiful surrender and reorientation of trust toward the Lord. But then there's like this detachment.

where the Lord gets to help that person that they love and care so much, but their own reformation increases their capacity to love, to serve, to pray. I mean, it's so beautiful. And so it's sort of like a two-for-one deal. It's like they're healthier and more capable. And now their life and their witness is teaching the others in their household ⁓ also how to live. But...

the Lord's also now free rather than them being distracted to like freely help, you know, those who they love too. So that's really one of my favorite, you know, kind of repetitive stories that we see over and over. And I think one more that I'll share, Joey, is, you know, having priests or religious, makes me emotional to even say, but come to us who care so much about their soul and, ⁓ and they just, their bodies are tired and run down and a bit broken and they start prioritizing.

their wellbeing in the sense of nourishing consistently and sleep and managing stressors and realizing that they're probably too much on their plate. And then their capacity to receive clarity in prayer or to pray more often or to pray more deeply, basically their connection with the Lord is just increases tenfold. And we've had a priest say to us, know,

I noticed that what I was nourishing my body then ended up being the nourishment I gave during my homilies. Like it was like when I fed myself well, I fed the people I was preaching to well. And it was like the Holy Spirit had space to move and to breathe. And I just thought like, ⁓ my gosh, this is, it's so beautiful. So we have thousands of beautiful stories, but I think that's these two common themes are the ones that really make this work just such a gift.

Joey Pontarelli (37:01)

I love it. So good. I could talk with you forever. There's this one story I was thinking of sharing of, I heard this a while ago. don't, haven't been able to track it down, but apparently Pope John Paul II, Saint John Paul II, a seminarian at one point asked him, you know, how do I have a good prayer life? How do I deepen my prayer life? And apparently he said, he said, sleep, exercise, and eat good And I thought it was like brilliant. And so, so anyway, I just think what you're saying makes so much sense of just, you know, if you want to live.

Jackie Mulligan (37:22)

Mm. Mm-mm.

Joey Pontarelli (37:28)

life to the fullest on every level, then yeah, what you guys are offering is what we all need. So thank you so much. I wanna give you the last word. I seriously could talk to you forever. I love the work that you're doing. And so just keep up the awesome work. I know there's people in your life, you know people who come from broken families. And so I'm just wondering like, they're listening right now. And so what encouragement, what advice would you give to them, especially as it relates to their just all overall health and wellness because

So often what we see is when they come from broken families, when they come from dysfunction, a lot of imbalance in their soul and their bodies and with their emotions. And so what final encouragement or advice would you give to them?

Jackie Mulligan (38:05)

Thank you for question and encouragement. would remind us and them that we're not alone and they're not alone and that we have the best Heavenly Father who loves us more than we can even fathom. I mean, it would blow us away if we knew really how much we are loved. And to let that love drive out any fear.

because I think when we believe the lie that we're alone that we can never be whole or never have a healthy relationship or be healthy in general, it puts up a barrier around what the Lord can really do. And so when we really desire healing, I don't know if there's a better person to pair with than the Lord. And so go to Him, nothing is too big, nothing is too broken.

And I think that...

with every yes toward life in him, every yes of like taking good care, you'll increase your capacity to be able to heal. I think that's what we all desire is an increased capacity to know his will, to feel his love, to know his mercy. And that just requires giving him just an inch of our days, an inch of our wellbeing and he will do the rest.

Joey Pontarelli (39:19)

What a good woman, what an amazing organization. To get the resources that Jackie and her team offers, can go to reformwellness.co, again, reformwellness.co, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, more subscribers that we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds. And you've already done that, I definitely invite you to rate or review the show. We really appreciate that feedback, and that helps people find the show as well.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Is Divorce the Answer? Resources to Help Struggling Parents Save Their Marriage

3 minute read.

If you're a parent struggling in your marriage and wondering, "Should I stay in my marriage for the kids?" or "How can I save my marriage?"—you're not alone. Many couples facing challenges in their relationship wrestle with questions like: "How does divorce affect children emotionally?" or "Is divorce better than staying in an unhappy marriage?"

The truth is, divorce has a profoundly damaging impact on the family as a whole, especially the children. Solid resources are few and far between for spouses willing to fight for their marriage. Whether you're looking for faith-based counseling, marriage coaching programs, or support groups for parents navigating marriage struggles, here are resources we recommend that are designed to help you and your family heal—without resorting to divorce except in the most dire situations, such as abuse or violence.

Coaching

Alexander House: Greg & Julie Alexander developed a program through which their team of marriage coaches takes couples. This is our number one recommendation. The program is offered at no cost, but as of September 2024, there is a 6-month wait. Contact them to join the waitlist here. In the meantime, here are some helpful links to learn more about them:

• Listen to our interview with Greg & Julie: How to Heal Your Broken Marriage.

• Read about their Marriage Disciple program here.

• They have also developed a program for couples dealing with infidelity in their marriage, separate from the Marriage Disciples program. Greg & Julie work with those couples personally. Go here for more info on Covenant Restored.

• Read Greg & Julie’s book, Marriage 911: How God Saved Our Marriage (and Can Save Yours, Too!).

Marriage Missionaries: Matt & Mindy Dalton began working with Alexander House and then founded their own ministry where they coach couples.

• Listen to our interview with Matt and Mindy: The #1 Thing Missing in Marriages Today

• Call this number 303-578-8287 and tell them that Joey Pontarelli referred you.

Dr. Christine Bacon: Another relationship coach who's opposed to divorce and exists to help rescue marriages.

• Listen to our podcast episode with her: Infidelity: Healing from Your Spouse or Parent’s Affair

Rightly Ordered: LeeAnne Abel offers many resources focused on divorce, including coaching for parents. Listen to her podcast episodes:

• 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 1

• 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 2

• 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 3

Would you consider a marriage retreat?

Retrouvaille offers retreats for marriages that are seriously struggling. 

Divorce is damaging to children, particularly in low-conflict situations. Here are some resources we recommend that highlight this:

Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak:

• Another book by Leila Miller that features 70 stories from adult children of divorce.

• You can hear her discuss the book on our podcast: How 70 Adult Children of Divorce Have Suffered.

Listen to our two additional podcast episodes about this:

• Does Divorce Damage Children? 67 Studies Answer

• Is Divorce Good or Bad for Children? | Katy Faust

In terms of resources for your loved ones (particularly the children) who may be going through divorce, here are a few for you (start with the article):

• Article: 10 Tips to Help Someone Whose Parents Are Separating or Divorcing

• Podcast: 3 Tips to Help Someone from a Divorced or Broken Family

• Our free course: Real Help: A Guide to Confidently Help Someone from a Divorced or Broken Family

Think there’s no hope for your marriage? Check out this book:

Impossible Marriages Redeemed: They Didn't End the Story in the Middle is a book by Leila Miller, featuring 50 stories of marriages that almost ended in divorce. As a requested follow-up to Primal Loss, this book offers hope, motivation, and tools needed to keep a marriage and family intact and on the road to true redemption.

Divorce isn’t the only option.

There is hope for a better future together. By working to restore your marriage, you’re creating a lasting legacy of love, stability, and unity for your children. We’re here to help. Take the first step today—your family is worth it.

---

FREE Course

In only 2 hours, learn how to help someone from a divorced or broken family:

• Understand their pain and experience through studies and stories

• Do or say the right things and avoid the wrong ones

• Feel competent and confident in offering help

• Learn about resources to help them

• Help them break the cycle and avoid passing their brokenness onto the people they love the most

#147: From Athlete to Paralyzed: “It’s the Best Thing That’s Happened to Me” | AJ De La Rosa

AJ had a normal life as a college student-athlete. But one night, a violent car accident left AJ paralyzed from the waist down. 

What started as 15 minutes of hell has transformed into what he calls “The best thing that’s happened to me.” 

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• The detailed story of the accident and the unexplainable emotions he experienced in the minutes after the accident

• The two things that helped him cope and beat feeling like a perpetual victim

• What AJ said to the driver of the vehicle and the miracles and transformations that have resulted from his injury

If you’ve endured trauma, a horrible injury, or you’re just going through an intense season of suffering, this episode is for you.

Follow AJ:

• Instagram

• TikTok

• YouTube

Email: Ajoftherose@gmail.com

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide: The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

View Restored’s Resources

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

AJ (00:00)

I had one of the top five minutes on the team. I was the guy that would dance in the middle of the dance floor. That's just kind of my life before my accident.

Joey (00:07)

So live in like a quote-unquote normal life.

AJ (00:09)

It was a Friday night. I was just kind of want to have fun as a college student. know, the car is going extremely fast.

Joey (00:16)

I'm curious, like, were you angry? Were you afraid?

AJ (00:18)

My

back hurt so bad and I couldn't move so all I was able to do was turn my neck. All I thought about was my life is over. Is this real? Like am I in a movie right now? There's just blood running down my face.

Joey (00:29)

So you said it was like 15 minutes of just like hell. Did it become more real when you were like leaving the hospital?

AJ (00:34)

from being

a college soccer player to trying to sit up but you can't even sit up. I think that was a hit in the face moment when I realized like I actually do need handicap parking.

Joey (00:43)

I wanted to talk to you a little bit about like grieving. I was curious how you have managed to avoid falling into victim mentality.

AJ (00:46)

is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

couldn't control it. I was just happy and I just knew everything was gonna be okay. I literally knew AJ like everything's gonna be okay.

Joey Pontarelli (01:01)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build better life.

My guest today is AJ De La Rosa, a speaker, content creator, and a man whose story will honestly challenge how you see suffering, faith, and even joy. He's been featured on major shows such as The Christophanic Show. He runs an online community for high school athletes, and he shares his message of hope with thousands of people online, blending faith, storytelling, and even human.

Today AJ speaks in schools, churches, at retreats, encouraging others to embrace their suffering and their crosses and discover joy even in the darkest places.

AJ's life took a dramatic turn in college and what followed is both heartbreaking and honestly deeply inspiring. In this episode, we explore his really powerful journey through unexpected tragedy. We talk about radical forgiveness, a kind of peace that really defies logic.

You'll hear also how he found a lot of purpose in his pain, the unexpected ways he's helped others, like really amazing stuff and what's kept him grounded through it all. And so if you've ever faced something in life felt like it could break you,

this episode, this story, conversation might be exactly what you needed to hear.

In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you would be this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you take out or skip the God parts, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. AJ's story is amazing. And so with that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (02:40)

AJ, welcome to the show.

AJ De La Rosa (02:42)

Hey Joey, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Joey Pontarelli (02:45)

No, it's great to have you on. I've been looking forward to this and want to talk about your accident obviously and what happened. But before we do that, I was wondering if you of paint a picture for everyone listening of what your life was like before it happened. So yeah, take us back there. What was life like then?

AJ De La Rosa (02:59)

So life before my was kind of crazy, it was kind of but at a young age, I was a practicing Catholic, so I wasn't really like.

I mean, my mom would try to take us to church, but my dad really never went to Maybe once every month or so, but it depended, like, it depended whether the Miami Dolphins were playing or not. so that was kind of like the reasoning why my dad didn't really go to church and he just really wasn't faithful, but they did get married through the church.

But then like 10 years before my accident, when I was like maybe in 2013, so when I was like 10 years old, my dad went on an Emmaus retreat with Catholic Church. And he went to that Emmaus retreat, it was during my mom and dad's wedding anniversary. And one of his friends told him that this would be the best gift you will ever give your wife and your family. He ended up going retreat.

And when he came back from it, he was on fire. And he had a conversion. And from that day on, we went to Sunday mass every single weekend. So then my faith kind of grew or whatever. And I was an athlete, played sports my whole life.

played soccer, basketball, football, literally everything that you can imagine. I went to a Catholic high school and my faith kind of grew. My personal faith journey kind of grew and it kind of went away during COVID. We were all inside and I couldn't go to church and I was lazy. But pretty much COVID happened, my faith kind of declined and then I got a scholarship to play college soccer at Ave Marie University.

Or I had a scholarship to go kick. I was a kicker for my high school football team and it was for a Juco. And Virginia.

So I had both offers on the table. And honestly, I played soccer since I was three years old. And I decided I might as well just go with soccer because that's something I've been playing my whole life. And there's a Catholic University. So I thought it was going to be a lot of weird people at first. I wasn't very used to it. I'm from Miami. So being from Miami, there's not that I mean, there's a big Catholic community, but I never got exposed to that Catholic community. And there was a lot of homeschoolers.

and I thought a lot of them were weird. And I know that sounds kind of messed up, but I really believe that they're weird. But then I came here and I met some of my closest friends ever my whole life, and I'm probably going to be friends with them for rest of my life. And I ended up playing college soccer. I was a starter for two years. My sophomore year, I one of the top five minutes on the team, and I was a left winger and I really enjoyed Ava Maria.

and then my accident was the party guy like my whole life. I loved like with family. I was the guy that would dance in the middle of the dance floor. I loved sports. I was outgoing, extrovert, and then I went to Aave. That's just kind of my life before my accident, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (05:55)

Hm

Okay,

yeah, so live in like a quote unquote normal life and having fun and all that. Cool. All right, so I know bit of your story, but take us through it for anyone who has never heard of this story, of course, like what happened? Like how did the accident come about?

AJ De La Rosa (06:07)

Yeah, exactly.

So, I mean there's a lot of like many miracles that happened during this accident, but I'm just gonna give you just like what happened that day and how the night finished I guess. So, I was a college soccer player. I had my classes all day and then I went to soccer practice. Like everything was perfectly fine. It was a regular soccer practice and I walked back from the soccer fields. I went and had dinner. I started playing a couple games.

outside after dinner and I had a volleyball tournament that night and my team name was the two block us I played in a volleyball tournament after the volleyball tournament. We came like in third place and I went back to the it was a it was a Friday night. I was just kind of wanting to have fun as a college student. You know hang out with some friends. So I took a shower got dressed. We kind of had a couple drinks and.

We were drinking outside the dorm, just me and a couple of friends, like probably like six of us were just outside the dorm just drinking and talking. That was kind of my type of fun. I was never really like somebody that go out to clubs or stuff like that. So it was just, my fun was more of just hanging out with friends, drinking and talking. So there was a lot of us just there drinking and talking and these two girls come outside the dorm and I knew who they They were like kind of friends that are

I was just becoming friends with at the time. they go outside and they're like, AJ, like you have to come to this party. Like, come on, AJ, come to this party. And I was like, I look at everybody. I'm like, only way I'm going is if everybody here goes with me. And I ended up like everybody was like, all right, let's do it. And it's like it's at a park that was one minute away. I was like, OK, let's just do it. So the people I was with, they went in one car and I ended up going with the two girls and I picked up one of my other

Shout out Joe. We got Joe from the other house and we went to the park. And when we were there at the I was there for about maybe 30 minutes to an hour. It was kind of already later at nighttime when we went. It was like around maybe like 10 o'clock at night. And then we went there and I stayed there maybe for maybe it was a little bit more over an hour. But I was there for an hour and a half maybe. And I was talking to some people, but the party was ending.

my friend Joe that I brought with me was leaving and it was getting kind of nasty and I was like, you know what, I just want to leave. So then I looked for the closest car that I could get into and I saw that the friends I was hanging right outside the dorms was leaving. So I was like, you know what, I'll just go with you guys. So, and he also had a Tesla and I was like, ooh, like I've never been in a Tesla before. I want to go

So then I go into the Tesla and I'm about to get into the car and there's a guy and a girl, Michael Clicus and Grace. They were gonna get in the car but Grace, this girl that I knew, she didn't wanna sit next to the guy that she never has talked to before. So I was like, you know what, I'll sit in the middle. So I went and sat in the middle of the car we we go and we're leaving. I'm in the

the driver makes a left. And while making a left, I'm like, wait, our dorm is to the right. I don't know why you're going to the left. And he made a U-turn. He goes down to the four He makes a left to go there, to to go back to our dorm. And right when we make a left, we're all like listening to music, having a good time. He ends up gassing the car and the car ends up going 97 miles per hour on a 25.

Joey Pontarelli (09:47)

Mm.

Gosh.

AJ De La Rosa (09:52)

And right when he gassed the car, I literally shot back from my seat. Like I literally, it felt like I was And I just remember trying to grab his shoulder and tell him like, relax, like why are you going so fast? Like relax. We ended up going 97 to 25 and there was a roundabout at the end of the The car is going extremely fast we hit the roundabout, go airborne, hit a palm tree and then a pole.

And I was pretty much conscious the whole time. I think I blacked out for maybe 10 ended up waking up in the car and I looked to my left and the drivers on the ground. I looked to the right and next to driver was on the ground and ended up like looking back. But then right when I look back to the backseat, my back hurt so bad. My back was

And I couldn't move, so all I was able to do

I just remember seeing the two people that were sitting next to me, they were fine, they were in their chair, and they started waking up. I saw everybody and she starts crying. The girl that was sitting next to me in the back starts crying, what do I do, what do I do? And I'm like, call 911. We just got My back is bad. You have to call 911 as fast as possible. kind of...

Joey Pontarelli (11:03)

Hmm.

you

AJ De La Rosa (11:12)

She didn't know what to do. I I've never gotten into a really bad car accident ever in my life. I'm pretty sure no one else in the car has. So when something like this happens, you just don't know what to do. So she didn't really know what to do and I was trying to like take her through the steps to like cops. she ended up calling the cops and in my head, that was probably the worst time of my life. Being in the car, knowing that my back is

And then I started touching my legs and I couldn't feel my legs anymore. Like my legs were just done. I couldn't feel nothing. And right when I felt my legs and I couldn't feel anything, all I thought about was I'm never gonna be able to walk again. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to have kids. I'm never gonna be able play sports again. Every single bad thought went through my head at that time.

is this real? Like there's no way my legs are just like not working. Like that has to be impossible. Like am I in a movie right now? Like am I in a dream? Like this can't be real. And I just started crying for like, like just crying, sobbing, tears going out my face. Then people started coming up to the car. Are you guys And I would say, get me out of this car, please. I don't want to be in this car anymore.

and there's just blood running down my face. And every single person that came up to me, it was like, are you okay? They would just be like, ⁓ and just get scared because they saw a whole bunch of blood everywhere. And it was just a very wild moment. But then of me crying Every bad thought was in my head, kids, sports, my parents, everything, with just a snap of a finger.

literally from that moment till right now, I have I really can't explain. And I really believe that God was with me that night and he gave me this peace to just be happy and know that God has literally everything under control. And this is how my life is just gonna be

Joey Pontarelli (13:28)

Wow.

AJ De La Rosa (13:29)

Yeah, so at that moment I just knew like, I'm gonna be okay. Like, I'm gonna be probably in a wheelchair for the rest God has everything under control. Yeah. So that was like the accident part of it. And then they end up getting me out of the car. I'm happy at this point. I'm great. Like, my life is great. Like, God has everything under control. I get into the ambulance and all I'm thinking about is my parents at this point. Like, my mom has been a helicopter mom since day one.

Joey Pontarelli (13:36)

Hmm.

Hehehe.

AJ De La Rosa (13:57)

She is about me. I would never do anything wrong because I was scared of my parents I didn't want my mom to just like go crazy on me or, you know. So she was a helicopter mom and she always protected me, all I was thinking about was her. So I get into the the paramedic, I'm like, I just need to call my mom. Like, I just need to call my me do that?

And she was like, okay, I'll call her right now. a phone. I give her mom's number and she picks up. And at this 2 a.m., o'clock in the morning. And she's like, AJ, what's going on? Why are these people calling me? Like, okay? And I'm just

Listen, I'm just paralyzed from the waist down. no, sorry, I didn't say that. I said, I just can't feel my legs. She was like, I was like, I just can't feel my legs. And she's like, what, you can't feel your legs? I'm like, listen, mommy, I can't feel my legs, but it's okay. God has a plan and everything's gonna be okay. All I want you to do is come to the hospital. God has a plan, trust me, mommy. And I just ended and bye. And I

Joey Pontarelli (15:07)

My goodness, man. There's so much there. One, I don't think I could have reacted as as you did. I don't know if anyone could have. That's like beautiful. It's clearly like grace, like you said.

AJ De La Rosa (15:17)

Well, yeah,

it It was all God. There's no way I don't. Sometimes I still think about it till this day and I don't like this.

Joey Pontarelli (15:26)

Yeah, no,

I mean, it's beautiful. I, I can't imagine. So was it like, you said it was like 15 minutes of just like hell. Like you were just like in pain and you were just afraid and were reacting the way they were, like you said. My goodness. And then how long were you in the car until they got you out? I was curious from like the moment of the accident to the moment.

AJ De La Rosa (15:46)

So I was in the car for maybe like 20 minutes. At least it felt like 20 minutes. I'm pretty sure it was And by the way, I have a broken back at this point. And the way that I was in the car was my head, I don't know if you've ever been in a Tesla, but the Tesla screen in the middle. So windshield was over and the screen in the here on my neck. So all I could do is go like this.

Joey Pontarelli (15:47)

Okay, well.

AJ De La Rosa (16:13)

completely broken. My back was literally completely broken, so I couldn't move my back. So if I was holding myself up with my hands on the center console a little bit, holding myself up with my hands, let go, and if I didn't use my arms anymore, my back would have just completely caved in. Yeah, so I was holding myself up and to keep my if not, it would have just...

Completely, so I was holding myself up for 20 minutes with all these bad thoughts But then after the 15 minute mark That's when everything kind of got better and then five minutes waiting for them to get to get me out of the car and they had to use The machine to get me out So they had to cut the seat and slide me out to make sure that my back didn't get worse than what it what it could have been

Joey Pontarelli (16:56)

They cut the top off the car too probably to

pull you out or something like that.

AJ De La Rosa (17:01)

they didn't cut the top, no, they didn't cut the top of the car, but they just cut the seats. But while they were cutting the seat, they were using like, was like going, and it hit me right in the rib one time. And yeah, it was kind of devastating. like after the accident, it was hard to breathe for like a week or two. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (17:10)

No.

my goodness, gosh, wow. That's like a whole nother thing.

My goodness. Okay. So you were in the backseat where you're buckled.

AJ De La Rosa (17:25)

So I wasn't buckled. North Park, it's a park next to where my university is and it's literally a minute away in a car. And Ave Maria, for the people that don't know, it's like, it's a neighborhood. Like Ave Maria is a neighborhood and the driver just decided to a 25. So yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (17:46)

Yeah, there's like people riding bikes around. I've been there. There's people riding

bikes around. There's like carts. It's like super chill. It looks like the Truman show. It's like super, if you guys have seen that movie, but it's super like, you said, like a small town and people are not going fast. So this is like an anomaly. Wow. So.

AJ De La Rosa (18:06)

And not only that, it's at 1 a.m. So there's no cars around. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (18:06)

Snowen, yeah, my goodness. All right, well,

there's so much here I wanna dive into.

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Joey Pontarelli (18:52)

I am curious, so you arrived to the hospital. So this sense of peace came over you about 15 minutes in and then roughly what, five minutes later they got you out. What other emotions hit you after that period or during that, following that 15 minute period? I'm curious, were you?

angry were you afraid or was it truly just like all peace?

AJ De La Rosa (19:14)

after the 15 minutes, yeah, so after the 15 minutes, literally wasn't afraid. I knew everything was going to be okay. Like in a sense, like it was very weird at the moment because I go from crying to just automatic, just like overwhelming peace I can't even Like I didn't really mention it, but in the ambulance, I was

when the firefighters were taking me out of the car, they had to rip one of my favorite sweaters. And they ripped it because they had a, I don't know why they had to rip it to be honest, but they ripped my sweater. And I literally told them like, no, not my favorite sweater. And a lot of things bigger in life than a sweater. And I was like, it's still my favorite sweater. So I mean,

Joey Pontarelli (20:01)

Come on.

AJ De La Rosa (20:04)

I was just, I just had, I don't know, it was just unwavering, like, just peace. Like, I couldn't control it. Like, I was just happy and I just knew everything was gonna be okay. I literally knew AJ, like, everything's gonna be okay. And that's what I felt.

Joey Pontarelli (20:18)

gift. That's

it's just like, there's no words to put to this. It's such an incredible story. you show up to the hospital. What happened then?

AJ De La Rosa (20:28)

I show up to the hospital and I think this the best stories but I get there and I don't remember anything. Literally nothing. Can't remember a single thing. The doctors.

Joey Pontarelli (20:38)

One thing I wanted to add, like you weren't like drunk or

high or anything, like you were completely sober. Cause people listening maybe are thinking like, maybe he's like, toxic.

AJ De La Rosa (20:45)

no, no, yeah, I know. Yeah.

No, no, I've never like smoked anything or anything like that. I mean, I do drink a little bit, but at that time, since the volleyball tournament ended so late, I, there was no way I could have even had that many drinks to even be like intoxicated. I mean, I had like a baby or drink. I was like just one drink just to hang out, but never got absolutely like drunk or anything like that. don't know. Yeah. No, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (21:09)

Totally. Okay. No, I just want to clarify that for anyone listening. was like, maybe he wasn't experiencing peace.

Maybe it's just intoxicated. But so, okay. So you arrived at the hospital. Sorry to cut in.

AJ De La Rosa (21:14)

No. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. So yeah, I arrived to the hospital. I don't really anything because of the amount of drugs that they were giving me because I the pain was so bad. I just needed all the and all the drugs that I could get because they were going to airlift me, but they ended up taking me on an ambulance and I had to just deal with every single bump. Like the car was leaving Ave and

There was just so many bumps. Every time I hit a bump, it was like, ow, like, ow, like every time. Yeah, then I ended up going to the hospital. anything, because all the drugs. And the only thing was woke up, this a doctor or not, but this lady comes into the room and she has a screen and she rolls the screen in of my bed.

my parents are on the left and there's a priest that was at Auburnbury University. foot of my bed and the lady comes in and she's like, listen guys, I'm sorry son, your spinal cord is and you're never gonna walk remember I I look at her and I'm like, not even like if you give me 1 %

Like I said, all I I need is 1%. And she said, nope, sorry son, your gonna walk again. She said exact same thing again. And I literally told her, I looked at her and I I believe in miracles. And I just went back to sleep.

Joey Pontarelli (22:47)

goodness. Okay, and so your parents were there at that point too I imagine and so that was probably a crazy experience for them but wow. long were you in the hospital for?

AJ De La Rosa (22:54)

Yes.

So I in that hospital I was in there for two days, like one night, like two was in there for two nights. And in total for one month.

Joey Pontarelli (23:07)

and you had to go through different

surgeries.

AJ De La Rosa (23:12)

So I had one surgery, everything went well. And then I had a couple procedures after, but it wasn't like It was more of like a so it was like one surgery and like two procedures. And then I was as well.

Joey Pontarelli (23:26)

Did it become

more real when you were leaving the hospital, I imagine, in a wheelchair this was kind of the reality now? Was there any sort of hit you in the face moment then?

AJ De La Rosa (23:35)

I think the hit me in the face moment doing rehab. When you go into a place you look at these and you're just like, you're in a hospital and you go into this place where there's just whole bunch of other people in wheelchairs and a couple other people that also just went through the same exact injury and they're trying to And you go from being a college soccer player

to trying to sit up and you can't even sit up. Because you used to use your legs for everything and you can't even use your legs. So I was watching the videos of my rehab I could even put on a shoe. So I think that was a in the face and then also noticing when you're in these hospitals and you actually need a button to open the door. So I hit in the face moment when I realized I actually do need handicap parking.

Joey Pontarelli (24:19)

Yeah.

AJ De La Rosa (24:28)

I actually do need to press a button to open the door for me if it's too heavy. So it's like little things like that and just to think that, I mean, you would never ever think in your life that you would ever be in a wheelchair and you have to get fitted for a wheelchair.

Joey Pontarelli (24:29)

Yeah.

Super humbling and

and really like a major loss like I wanted to talk to you a little bit about like grieving and all and that was part of the reason I just asked that one question because I think like so often all of us whether it was like a major injury or you know like with my audience your parents getting divorced or your family just being super dysfunctional a very serious like sense of like I lost something I was deprived of something that was like supposed to be in my life or something that was in my life and then it was taken away

AJ De La Rosa (24:45)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (25:07)

And what that often requires is, well, it kind of happens to us and then we can kind of cooperate with it as like grieving, as kind of learning to accept that loss and going through any and all of the emotions that come along with it, which often are like anger and sadness and just kind of, like you went through like denial of like, can't believe this is happening. So there's some other stages too, yeah, I'm just curious, like, what was that process like for you? Was there like a grieving process for you and how did you experience that?

AJ De La Rosa (25:36)

So I think the grieving like the amount of grace like God gave me the accident, like there was no really grieving. I really enjoyed life and I was happy. But I think it came where

the hospital and I realized like I would see all my friends playing a sport and I'm like, wow, like I really wish I could play right now. the simple things of like going to a place that's packed or even like going to a sports event and you have to just wait in a line because you have to wait to get a certain ticket. I part of the grieving where at that point I'm just like.

I just want to be like normal, you know what I mean? Like I want to just sit in a this special treatment. it's it's like, it's like things like that that I think are the hardest part rather than the actual grieving that I'm in a Because ever since that moment in the I knew that this was God's plan this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Right? So it wasn't really about the physical grieving or anything like that. It was more of just like,

the mental griefing, knowing that I cannot ever have this type of job, right? Like it won't be like, you know, it's just, so it's like like that where I think that was the mental like blocks where you get where you're just like, you're out watching your brothers play in a soccer game and you're just like, like, I wish I could just play. So I think it's like that, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (27:06)

Okay, no, that totally makes sense. And I could totally see how

kind of like normal everyday things, not being able to do them would be hard. I imagine, at least initially, I know you're very independent now, but the loss of independence, needing to rely on other people, like I can't imagine how hard that was. I would struggle so much with that.

AJ De La Rosa (27:24)

yeah, I mean, it's, so humbling when you have to go to Publix and or a shopping store or like literally any place that you need to go and get something. And something is all the way at the top, like, like the top shelf or there's a hanger all the way at the top or whatever. Like, you know how humbling it is. Like it really humbled me that I have to just talk to a random person and be like, Hey, like

I kinda need your help, can you help me get that bag of chips up there? So it literally happens to me every day where because I feel like as men, and as a man, you wanna just do it yourself. I just have to be humble and just let it go. And even using the While I was in the hospital, There was times where like...

I would use the restroom everywhere on the bed and random nurses would just come and pick everything up for me. And it's just so humbling. It was kind of embarrassing, at the same time, I would just like, I'll take it in. I'm like, all right, I just have to about it. I need help. It is what it is. Or even asking somebody to hold the door for you. Something that simple. like, it's kind of hard, but it's good.

Joey Pontarelli (28:34)

Yeah, no, I follow you man and gosh you've handled it with such poise

and grace I was curious, I think a lot of people are thinking this now, what about anger? Like did you have anger at God? Did you have anger at the guy who was driving the car? what was that like for you?

AJ De La Rosa (28:54)

So I think the anger aspect of it, I've never been like ever in my I don't think I've ever gotten like, I could get mad at people, a lover and like, I get mad at them, I'm just gonna end up like forgiving them after, like even if it's like an hour after, like I can never hold on up to a grudge.

or anything like that, like I'm it used to happen with my family all the time where if they get mad at me or I get mad at them, I always try to just make it up as fast as possible because I just like, I'm just a lover. But so I never really had anger and I just feel like that was never really like my personality. I was never like an angry person. I was just kind of go with the flow, and just happy.

Joey Pontarelli (29:25)

awesome.

Yeah, no, makes sense. Okay. even, I know you've said

multiple times, when it comes to like anger at God, like you didn't really, one, you didn't really see this as like this bad thing, which I think a lot of people would be tempted to see it that way. You even mentioned that it was like the best thing that happened to you. That's confusing for a lot of people. Would you explain that a little bit? Like how is this thing that was arguably traumatic, very traumatic, I would say, left you with this major injury.

would that be the best thing that's ever happened to you?

AJ De La Rosa (30:06)

So one thing I would say, me, so I'm just gonna say a little quick story. Me and my dad got about a month after the hospital. We were in the kitchen, my dad was cleaning up and had dinner and he was cleaning up the dishes and stuff and all my brothers are around and we're there just like talking and somebody said like, well the hospital was such a bad, like.

Like don't even remind me of the hospital. Like I don't even want to think about it. was just so, like it was literally so bad. my dad was saying that. And we were like, and I kind of felt a little offended. I was like, like, what do mean? Like, why is it bad? And he was like, AJ, you were literally paralyzed. You had people having to pick up all your poop. You had, you couldn't walk. We had to help you. We had to sleep there.

on the couch for you every night. I had missed so many days of work, was hurting, I have to ask so I have a question

would you want me to not be in a wheelchair right now, but you keep the same faith as what you had Or I'm in a wheelchair right now and you have I think maybe the faith that you have now. And it's because he always used to say like, wow, this accident, we're all fit, like we've all gotten closer to God. So I asked him that. I was like, that for me. was like,

you stupid? Like, this is an easy answer. Like, obviously I would want you to be I looked at him and I told him, I mean, that shows me where your faith is now. we were at the hospital.

We've changed so many people's lives through my accident. Like I've changed a lot of people's lives and I'm not trying to just like flex or people have gotten closer to God because of my And God did that for a reason. We met so many people. There has been to God. People have been praying for us. We've built a and it was just so good.

Like how could you not, like I honestly believe it was probably one of the best times of my life. Like there's so many conversions, so many people getting closer to God. People would go up to my dad and say, I haven't prayed a single day in my life and I've been praying for your son Like that is just something that I would be happy for the rest of my that person had a connection with God through my accident, because of my accident.

Joey Pontarelli (32:41)

Wow.

AJ De La Rosa (32:46)

I really believe that's why God chose me. And that's why I think I was so happy. It was a great time. I got closer to God and my faith grew. So why would I be mad at that? Like, it was a great time. I grew closer to God.

Joey Pontarelli (32:55)

Yeah. Wow. Okay. No, it's incredible. It's a beautiful perspective.

And remember you sharing with me just how you've been able to help other people. You'd mentioned that briefly. Let's go into that a little bit. So like, what good have you seen come from this maybe in your life and the lives of other people? You already mentioned a few things, but I'm just curious if there are any stories of, you know, where it's like so clear of like, wow, like this person was transformed or changed like you had mentioned.

AJ De La Rosa (33:23)

So one I mean my brother he was um, I mean he Not trying to put him on the spot, but he wasn't the best Person and when it comes to virtue he had a lot of vices I mean he had some virtue but he just wasn't living a life of faith and a life that God like to be honest and after my accident he was kind of in the middle part where he was dating this girl and

He didn't know if he wanted to marry her or not. He was trying to see if he wants to get engaged or not. And after this accident, ended up having a huge conversion ended up getting married March 1st and literally they got married in the church. She wasn't even a believer and she became a Catholic. is a really crazy story but.

had to do with my aunt. She ended up having like, it was like a huge miracle kind of thing where there was this random lady that came to her work and said, do you know somebody that's paralyzed? And my aunt worked at a bank and she was like one of the heads of the bank. And she was so confused when this random lady came to her office. I walked by her office saying my back hurts and I can't feel my legs. And the lady sits down she looks at my aunt and says, do you know somebody that's paralyzed? And my aunt is like, what?

Like, what are you talking about? She's like, yes, he was in a car accident and he's close to somebody that you love, which is my mom. My aunt and my mom were like really, really, really close. And she keeps she says, don't worry, his faith is gonna save him. And one day he's gonna wake up in the middle of the night having the urge to use the restroom and he's gonna get up and And he's gonna use his wheelchair for testimonies. And.

She said this and she's crying. She's like, what do you mean? You know he's gonna walk? Like she's like crying because she can't believe it. This is like two months after my accident. And then she looks at her and she says, and you, you have something too. The doctor told you don't drink coffee and don't eat rice. You have an eye doctor appointment next Tuesday. And all this stuff that this random lady that my aunt has never met in her life was getting this information. And my aunt is just there like, what is going on? How does she know I have an eye doctor appointment next Tuesday and that the doctor said to do this?

Joey Pontarelli (35:32)

the heck.

AJ De La Rosa (35:44)

She looks at my mom and she says, make sure that the medicines that she's giving you or that the doctor is giving you are correct. Make sure and tell the doctor to switch them. She goes to the eye doctor appointment She doesn't tell the They finish the procedure and by odds, eyes become absolutely bloodshot red because they messed up the dosage of the one was supposed to be the other one and they had to switch it.

She ends up converting and she ends up going to church that after that day, she's never seen her again. And at the bank before that, she used to be known as the She my aunt, said this stuff. My aunt was crying, Dr. Poemendga happens. happen to her eyes. She ends up converting, starts going

Joey Pontarelli (36:35)

Wow.

AJ De La Rosa (36:36)

she passed away.

that was her conversion. God wanted this accident to happen for her to have that have that messenger. I believe that that was to tell her and to help her get back to her faith and to show like I feel like in a way like God sometimes he shows like right he gives you like two of the time Mary Elizabeth.

Yeah, it's Elizabeth, right? Yeah. And that Elizabeth is also going to have a baby as well, just to show that this is true. Right. And I feel like, know. don't know if that lady, to my aunt's funeral. When I go to the funeral, there's a lot of her, like coworkers there and I asked them, it's like, I'm AJ and

Has that lady ever came back? Do you guys know who she is? And they literally look at me like, oh, you're AJ. Wow. Like, yeah, your aunt loved you so much. She could like she converted this, that blah, blah. And she pretty much said like, yeah, that lady was a crazy lady. We caught her the crazy lady and we haven't seen her since. So I so that was like Like, I'm like, for a reason. And if I would do it all over again from to know that my aunt could go to heaven

Joey Pontarelli (37:39)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Wow.

Joey Pontarelli (37:55)

If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources, or click on the link in the show notes.

AJ De La Rosa (38:23)

any of my family.

Joey Pontarelli (38:23)

No, it's beautiful.

AJ De La Rosa (38:24)

family members could know?

Joey Pontarelli (38:25)

you've shared so many other things that we don't have time to go into everything, but I remember being asked to like basically in the hospital who had gone through a just like your ability to like give them hope when they're at like the lowest point in their lives. Like that was really beautiful. Maybe I'm mixing up some of the details, but I know that was the gist of

And so just like, so it sounds like there's like almost like miracles happening because of this, like that flow from it. It's amazing. so much more I'm sure we could say, but I'm sure everyone's wondering like, did the dream part come true that she had mentioned?

AJ De La Rosa (38:48)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (39:01)

Okay.

AJ De La Rosa (39:02)

so the but I mean, I mean, I know I'm gonna walk one day and I know it's gonna happen. And a lot of people would probably say, I mean, the doctors told me it was severed. I go to the next hospital, not even airlifted again. I drive two and a half hours with a broken back to Miami. And we do a surgery there because my mom didn't like the way how they said like, never gonna walk again, it's severed.

and then they were gonna wait to give us a surgery like three days after the accident. So we ended up transferring to and Jackson Memorial and and then my mom literally asked the doctor, will he walk again? Like, is there a chance please? And the doctor says, it will be impossible for me to tell you that he will never walk again. His spinal cord It was just completely crushed. And.

I just find it crazy how it went from severed, I say I believe in miracles, two hour drive with a broken back to Miami and it goes from being severed to completely crushed and then impossible for me to tell you that you will never walk again. And now at this time in my life, I am walking with two hand crutches. So all, it's all God.

Joey Pontarelli (40:15)

So cool, so beautiful. man. Yeah, your story

is so amazing. I wanna give people more detail on what life is like now for you, but I wanna go back a little bit more talk a little bit about forgiveness. So I was curious if that has been a struggle for you. Maybe it hasn't, that's okay. what's forgiveness been like for you? And did you need to kind of forgive your friend who was driving or was it something that was easy? I'm curious where you're at with that.

AJ De La Rosa (40:42)

So, been, I mean, very I mean, by the grace of God, like, it's just been, like, so easy. I went I mean, I didn't really text him. I would So, once we got back to school the next semester, I kind of heard talks of maybe he's gonna come back, maybe he's not, because he was going through a lot of hell.

I can only imagine how anybody would how anybody could go through the fact that they made a mistake and somebody's caused, like somebody's having to deal with it, being paralyzed, you know? So he ended to school and at first I would drive around trying to just do my regular daily stuff and I noticed him one day and I was gonna go to him but he ended up walking the other way and the next time I saw him I was like, all right, I'm not letting him walk away from me.

And I rode up to him and I have like a little scooter on my wheelchair and I rode up to him and I was like, Chris, I want you to let you know, like I've been praying for you and I love you. And I know this might sound crazy, but thank you. Thank you for going that fast. And thank you for everything. Like God loves you and I love you. So don't worry about it no more. Like it's okay. Like So I mean, that's, I mean, he's really the only person I would have

And I just felt like it was easy because I know he made a everybody makes mistakes in their life. We can't just like ruin and like make them feel worse, you

Joey Pontarelli (42:07)

That's amazing and such a beautiful exchange that you had. I know a lot of people

struggle to forgive or they maybe never even got the opportunity because they're estranged from the person. So I'm really glad. And I bet that affected him. I don't know if you want to go into it further. It's okay if not, but I bet that affected him. Did he receive that well?

AJ De La Rosa (42:28)

no, yeah, he I mean, at he didn't think I was actually going go up to him and he ended up receiving it. And we ended up talking again after. And I kind of went more in what I meant when I like with what I was saying, because like I could only imagine him hearing thank you for everything. It was So I ended up talking to him again. But ever since that moment, it's like before that, it seemed like he was scared.

like to walk around campus, especially the semester before. And after I spoke to him, he became like more outgoing, talking to more people, and he just, he looked a lot better. And when I had that second conversation with him, it was even better. And then he was back to his regular self. At least that's what it seemed like to everybody.

Joey Pontarelli (43:10)

Yeah, no beautiful. mean, even that alone, man, it's like a miracle. Cause I know, you know, there's obviously countless

stories of people doing something they regret then carrying that weight on them maybe not getting forgiven. Maybe the person that harmed, carries a lot of anger toward them and unforgiveness. And know, that could take a toll as well. So it's like really beautiful that you were able to have that conversation, those conversations with him and just kind of resolve that. So, so good. So many lessons there.

you have managed to avoid falling into victim mentality. I know this is something that a lot of people today struggle with and I've been there myself where we, some bad happens to us and we tend to make that our identity and we tend to get like stuck and hoping maybe someone will come in and rescue us or just blaming the world, blaming everyone for our plate and not really doing anything

you know what victim mentality is, but just for everyone listening, such a big problem in our day. And so I'm curious, how have you struggled with that perhaps and how have you overcome it?

AJ De La Rosa (44:13)

So one thing I would say is that like with the victim mentality is that we're all gonna go through right? So we're all at some point in this victim mentality, right? So we all go through suffering and.

When I was in like ICU hospital, like of course, like when everybody visited me, I could have had that like victim mentality. But of the toughest, like the easiest things for me the toughest, the easiest thing was just look at the person that has had it, the has had the worst suffering and Why should I be complaining about me being paralyzed died on the cross for me?

So I think it was just more of having that perspective where I don't have it that bad. be a victim? I would go in the hospital and go to rehab and I see people that are not but they're, not paraplegics, but they're quadriplegics and they can't move their hands the right way.

So everybody, there's always gonna be that one has it worse than you. So why should I complain about it? Or why should I let that, why should I have that mentality when there's somebody that has it so much more worse than I do? I do not have it that bad. I'm actually grateful. Like when I was there and I saw people that couldn't move their fingers or on their arm muscles and I have all that, so why should I complain? I think it was just more of just like giving it to God. I think.

when you do it for somebody else it makes it a lot better.

Joey Pontarelli (45:39)

And I know you had mentioned elsewhere humility and humor have played

a role as well. Talk about that.

AJ De La Rosa (45:47)

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I I mean, you just gotta joke about it. Like, I mean, I'm in a wheelchair. I understand it. Like, I can't like, whenever people like make jokes about it, you just gotta laugh. Like, it's funny and...

I mean, I used to make jokes like that before I was in a wheelchair and look at me now, I'm in a wheelchair now. So now I actually enjoy when people give me those jokes. And it's just like, if you don't live with humor, then everything's You just won't be happy. Like you just have to have humor and humility. Like exactly like seeing these people in rehab, having someone open the door for me. You know what I mean? It's just like the small things like that where

Joey Pontarelli (46:19)

Yeah.

AJ De La Rosa (46:30)

could easily, like something like that could easily just ruin somebody's day. mentality, you could just ruin it. you know what I mean? So it's like, you just gotta live your life. Just let it go. I mean, that's kind of, I'm very nonchalant, so I'm just like, if it's just not meant to be, then it's just not meant to be, you know? And sometimes I'm like,

Joey Pontarelli (46:31)

easily.

AJ De La Rosa (46:51)

People can't see me because I'm so low to the ground. So when they're looking around, they can't really see me. if I ever ask for somebody to open the door, they kind of just keep going. I'm just like, that's OK. They didn't see me. And they just go in. So I feel like you have to live your life with humor

Joey Pontarelli (46:58)

Yeah, I love it. No, great principles, great virtues, I guess we could say. there any

books or podcasts or content that was especially helpful for you in the midst of all this suffering?

AJ De La Rosa (47:16)

there wasn't really no content or books or anything like It was more And I think that is just what really helped me. and every single person I've ever met in during that time they contacted me, which was crazy. And...

Like I think community is so important. Like if anybody's ever going through like suffering or depression, like, or just not happy, if you get in a community that entire life. We ran a soccer organization when I was a nonprofit soccer organization with over 600 kids.

My dad did it. He said, I'm going to be the commissioner of the league. And I cried. I'm like, what? We're losing time. we're a family. And I was younger. was like, what do mean? Our weekends, we're never going to be able to go places. Our whole life is ruined. You're going to be the commissioner of the league. We're not going to have no time to have fun with you anymore.

And now, like about two years before my accident, he stopped doing the league and really sad. I was like, dang, you're giving it up. Like that's kind of and we would have never been in that community and serving people, we would have never gotten the amount of love that we've gotten after my accident.

And I feel like that was something that was just like so important to me, the community, the amount of like kids that I didn't think knew me, but they knew me. And before games, they would say AJ on three, AJ on three, and say my name, like before their games. Like girls I've never met before in my life, but I feel like that's why community is so important. My best friends that came and visited me in the hospital, like.

everywhere that came and visited me, wrote to me, it was so nice to just know that I was loved. Because I think we all forget that we're all loved. You know, it could be that one person that loves you, but with something like this, it could just

Joey Pontarelli (49:12)

Yeah, no, I love that. And such a beautiful principle to like the community principle of the love principle, but also

just this idea that like when you give good things, you do good for people kind of ends up coming back to you in so many real ways. I know some people would call it karma or whatever, but I it's just such a real part of life that if you just try to help people and do good to them, then they'll return the favor. They'll help you. even if it's something like way down the road, it's really beautiful. it in my life too.

What if someone's listening right now and they're like, suffering a lot I went through an injury or trauma or anything that is really affecting them pain suffering in their lives they're not really sure how to build community. They kind of understand like yeah, I need people around me to love curious like what steps would you recommend that they take to kind of add that into their life?

AJ De La Rosa (50:02)

say is there's a community for literally everyone, right? Like might think that you're alone, but there really is a for everybody. Like when I first got into the wheelchair, there was for a whole bunch of people that are in wheelchairs and they would have groups every day. But I think you just have to be open

feel like with everything in life, you just have to just completely be open to it and know it's gonna work out. And if it's not the community for you, there's other ones, right? And I just feel like you really have to be open to it. And once you become open to it, that's when I really believe that there'll be a lot of gifts that come from I wasn't to my the commissioner of the soccer league, doing it. And...

I kind just did it because he was doing it and it ended up being probably one of the most best things in my life. open to it, let it go. I mean, if you're not religious, there's still going to be gifts that come from it. And if you are, God's going to work through you. So.

That's I think that's what I would say, because I mean, just you just have take a chance. You have to. I mean, even with my friends from like, remember what I said earlier, I thought homeschool kids were weird and my best friends here in Ave were homeschooled. I took a chance because I really enjoyed hanging out with them. And if I were to told my friends back home, yeah, all my friends now are are homeschooled. They would all question me.

Joey Pontarelli (51:14)

so funny.

He

And they're normal.

AJ De La Rosa (51:31)

And I just, yeah, I just took my, I just took a chance and it's not really taking a chance, but I became really close friends with them and now they're gonna be my friends for life. So, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (51:36)

That's so good. No, I love that. So many good pieces of advice. couple of things from my experience, if it's okay, I wanted to add was,

I think when it comes to community, I think that openness piece is so huge, because sometimes we get closed off. And I think so often, community that maybe you need is often, not always, often like right in front of you in some ways. I think so often we get closed off to like the people around us, the people that we maybe see, you know, at school or.

at work or at the gym or at church, wherever. Of course, we want high quality people, people who are gonna call us on to live good, virtuous So wherever those people are, instead of maybe longing for something like, I don't know, abstractly out there somewhere, it's like try investing in those relationships. get a meal group of people that you know them over and cook for them or just hang out, get coffee, go on a walk, do something.

that would kinda strengthen those relationships. one of the things that was so helpful for me growing up was just understanding that as humans, we really just bond in one of two Through conversations like we're having through experiences, through doing things together. That's And so, in what ways can you have some conversations, and what ways can you do some experiences? And one of the things with conversations I've learned is,

kind of this core, like foundational skill is just asking good questions. You don't need to be able to be a savant at conversations, but you just learn how to ask some good questions. it's amazing, like if you ask good questions, like people will give like pretty amazing answers. That's one thing. And then when it comes to experiences, I've learned that, have to obviously find the balance between doing things maybe that you wanna do and doing things that other people wanna do. And so I think that's really beautiful if you can find the common ground and then do those things together.

AJ De La Rosa (53:07)

Yeah, for sure.

Joey Pontarelli (53:15)

And I know this stuff is like basic common sense, but I think it's been so helpful for me, especially when I was growing just understand like these are how relationships are built. This is how community is built. we don't need to go of find it elsewhere, travel the world or whatever. You can actually like kind of blossom like wherever you're planted. Anything you'd add to that?

AJ De La Rosa (53:37)

No, yeah, I mean, I totally agree. I the way I met that I've built community with, it's what things that like, I mean, I guess what I could say is.

whatever you like in your life, there's a community for it. And like, I was a soccer player, my community was a whole bunch of other people that played soccer. My friends now, I love sports, they love sports, and we just grew together. And the more you hang out with somebody, the more you're gonna get closer with them. It's just the way it is.

Joey Pontarelli (54:01)

So good, so good, no. I think this is helpful, especially for someone who's maybe feeling stuck and they're like, I need that community, I know but

they maybe haven't done it. And the final thing I would just kind of challenge people to would be to actually act. Don't just think about this. Hopefully this advice is helpful, if you're looking for a specific community around maybe some suffering you've been through, do some Google searches, search on YouTube, whatever it looks like. Ask people in your life if they're aware of anything like that.

Or if it's more basic, like with friends, text someone, call someone, get something set up, get something on the calendar. It really could be as simple as that. I know there's sometimes kind of barriers in our minds, but I think we need to push through those things to make this happen. And when we do, I've found is even sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I really want to go put all the effort into go see friends or do this thing or that when I do, I'm always grateful. I'm always happy that I spent good quality time with people that I care about. So anyway.

That's a challenge for everyone listening a struggle for AJ, there's so much more we could talk about. I'm curious if you would kind of like close the story and just let us know like what is life like for you now? I know there's a lot of cool things happening in your life. So tell us a little bit about are you medication free and are you still doing therapy? I'm curious about all that.

AJ De La Rosa (55:20)

So my life now, mean, from the beginning of my accent to now, it is like literally completely different. I was watching videos and like, like remember like little stuff earlier, like I and just all that stuff. Like it's just so much easier. I live completely independent. So I could cook on my own, do everything on my own, take showers, use the restroom, everything on my own. Medication, the only medication I really take is like,

just like ibuprofen or something like that, but I was on medication for my nerve pain. I still go through a lot of suffering with like nerve pain, stomach problems and just different things, but everything has been slowly getting better. I have more movement in my legs. I could pretty much use all my muscles for my knee up.

And I'm still missing my calf muscles and like my foot muscles, but from the knee up, could, I could pretty much move everything. So at that point, all I need is just more maybe some physical therapy to help me just keep growing that are like my thighs, hamstrings and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, life is great. I'm getting married my fiance is going to be graduating and give more talks and.

playing golf now. I can play golf. I have a machine that helps me play golf. So I'm pretty active in the way of, I love sports. So I'm so just trying to keep playing sports and hang out with friends and do all the normal things a do.

Joey Pontarelli (56:40)

so good and congrats on the engagement and upcoming marriage. I'm super pumped for you and yeah just excited

to see where the rest of your story brings you and I know you're getting more into like speaking at schools and churches and places like that so anyone listening make sure to check AJ out definitely worth bringing him in and know especially if there's I know eventually you might into this maybe I'm teasing it too much

into mentoring people who are suffering. So I think there's something there to be said too. So if people want to find out more about you and what you offer, could they go? How could they contact you?

AJ De La Rosa (57:17)

So, mean, on Instagram, AJoftherose, which of the roses, like Della Rosa, that's my last name, but it's AJoftherose on Instagram and on YouTube and pretty much on everything. It's just AJoftherose. And you can contact me there by even just sending me like a DM and I'm open to talk to whoever. I always answer my DMs if anybody ever needs help or anything like that. yeah, that's pretty much it.

Joey Pontarelli (57:36)

Yeah, man. And we'll put all that in the show notes for you guys so you can reach out to AJ. So good, man. It's been so good talking

with you. I'm just amazed at you and how you've responded to this so well and with just such maturity and grace. Anyway, yeah, I'm that you're in my life and my family's life and my brother's life, especially JP. I you guys are tight. And that's my youngest brother for everyone

And so yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here. And I wanna just give you, yeah, you're the man. This is awesome. yeah, just you're such an inspiring source. It's help a lot of people. So I wanna give you the final word. Like what final advice or encouragement would you offer to someone listening right now, especially someone suffering, whether they went through some major injury or they were just or some sort of suffering right now. final advice and encouragement would you give them?

AJ De La Rosa (58:11)

No, yeah, thank you, Joey. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

is my final words about suffering, going through it is you're not alone. You're literally never And I'm going through suffering. Every single person on this earth goes through And even Jesus Christ himself, my God, our God.

So what I would say is that you're not alone and that if you ever need help, there's always a place that you'd go to and just have humor and humility about it. And literally, Everything's gonna be great. I know that might be hard to understand now,

Joey Pontarelli (59:08)

What an amazing story, what an amazing man. I'm so impressed with if you wanna follow him and learn more from him, go ahead and follow him on social media. You'll find all of his social handles in the show notes. And with wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. You'll obviously avoid missing future you'll actually help us reach more people by doing that. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the really appreciate that feedback and that also helps the podcast.

closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle build a better life and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who you can go back change the beginning, you can start where you are and change the ending.

#146: 1/3 Less Marriages Today Are Making Us Lonely | JP De Gance

At the root of our culture’s many problems is the breakdown of marriages and families. My guest shares sobering statistics, such as that “there are 31% less marriages annually now than in the year 2000” and there are “65% less marriages now than in the year 1970.” 

He says this is hugely contributing to the loneliness crisis today. Thankfully, there is a cure, which we discuss in this episode, plus:

• How the lonelinest group of people at church aren’t the old

• Encouragement for young people from broken families who fear love and marriage

• What a healthy relationship looks like and how to build it, including the 5 stages of healthy relationships

If you’ve been affected by the breakdown of marriages and families, this episode is for you.

Buy JP’s Book: The Church's Strategic Move to Save Faith and Family in America

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

View Restored’s Resources

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

JP: [00:00:00] The loneliness challenge is largely a singleness challenge,

right? we wouldn't have an epidemic of loneliness in our country if, we had marriage rates similar to the early two thousands.

Joey: were there any other like shocking or really interesting findings for you when it came to marriage and, and divorce in particular?

JP: So that's one of the ways that we can start to know. How they may treat us later, right? When, when that person's not trying to impress us,

Joey: what are some of the tips and tactics that you guys teach in order to build those healthy relationships?

Don't

JP: place ourselves into a situation where , we don't yet have a deep trust with 'em. But now I have to rely, like, okay, moving in with somebody quickly in a relationship, cohabitate super early.

We're compromising our ability to be free

Joey: I'd never heard it like that sounds super helpful and I love that you're making it so practical and tactical.

how have marriage rates dropped?

JP: there are 31% less marriages annually now than in the year 2000.

Joey: Welcome [00:01:00] to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Pan. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle. And Build a better Life. My guest today is JP Dickens. JP is the founder and president of Communio and the co-author of the book Endgame, the Church's Strategic Move to Save Faith and Family in America.

JP is also the author of the Nationwide Study on Faith and Relationships. Communio actually raised and spent $20 million over. Three years in three different states seeking to identify the most effective strategies to boost marital health, family stability, and church engagement. And so from 2016 to 2018, they drove down the divorce rate.

Get this by 24% in Jacksonville, Florida today. Communal serves churches across the United States, helping them strengthen marriages and their communities. A husband and father. JP lives in Virginia with his wife and their eight children. At the root of our cultures many problems is the [00:02:00] breakdown of marriages and families.

A lot of us know this, and my guest today, jp, he shares some sobering statistics such as there are 31% less marriages annually now than in the year 2000, and there are actually 65% less marriages now than in the year. 1970. Now, thankfully there is a cure, which we discuss in this episode. Plus, he shares some really fascinating statistics from their 19,000 person study.

He talks about how the loneliest group of people in church aren't actually old people. He also shares some encouragement for young people from broken families who maybe fear, love, and marriage. We talk about. What a healthy relationship looks like and how to build it, including the five stages of all healthy relationships.

And finally, he shares a resource to help build strong marriages, families, and communities. And so if you've been affected in any way by the breakdown of marriages and families, I. This episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who has been listening to this show for a while [00:03:00] knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge too would be this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode.

And so with that, here's my conversation with jp. Dick hands.

welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you here,

JP: Joey, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Joey: I've admired your work from afar and really glad that we're finally speaking. I, I wanna dive right in. You say that there is a crisis happening in our world.

What is that crisis and what are the implications? What are the dangers if we don't solve it?

JP: Yeah, ultimately, I think the enemy for the last, definitely the last couple centuries, but accelerated the 1960s has been a full on attack on the very idea of what is the human person. Right the attack on, marriage and the sexual embrace.

Right. I, I think you, you can see a, a clear line starting in the worst elements of the enlightenment and just you saw rejection and the [00:04:00] ideas of Christian anthropology and marriage and the family starting in the Revolutionary Republic of France. A lot of those ideas were limited in scope in so many ways because of technology.

You began seeing an unraveling of the Christian consensus on marriage and the human person more and more in the 19th century, but, uh, not until really around 1960, you see it start to explode onto a large scale retail level. I. Right. You, you have a lot of those ideas that long pre-exist. The 1960s can get unleashed with the advent of artificial contraception, the disconnection of people, really the separation of, of sex from parenting, sex, from partnering, and you start to see.

Fatherlessness, uh, start to grow. You see infidelity start to grow. You see men and women, uh, less and less being able to, at least in the, in the divorce numbers in this country, less and less staying in lifelong [00:05:00] commitments, right? You have the no fault revolution. That follows that in the 1970s, right? You see a sort of a final, you'd say transformation of marriage law in this country in a, in a certain sense.

And, and so then you start to see, gosh, 25 years after that, you start to see the um, the fruit of the. Of the sexual revolution, right? Those who've grown up most frequently in homes where, where mom and dad weren't able to stay married. You see that woundedness show up in different ways in our society, in our culture.

One of the ways I think you see this is in the phenomenon of religious non affiliation. My study, which is the nationwide study and faith and relationships, links the disintegration of the married home to religious non affiliation. They appear to be in some way related and, um, it doesn't, we're not determinists, right?

It doesn't determine anything, but it does seem like God has made marriage and the family a, a vital ingredient for the transmission of faith. And when it breaks down, it makes it harder, not [00:06:00] impossible for faith to transmit. And, and so you start, start to see that. So when I say, uh, this, uh, you know, you, you talk about.

Attack the enemy, the, you know, shift of our culture. That's what I'm referring to, this couple hundred year march, but then this acceleration beginning about 60 years ago. Wow.

Joey: It's so fascinating. And what I hear you saying is yeah, there's just this whole cascade of things starting with ideas and then I.

Being codified into law and then, you know, kind of becoming commonplace that effectively just deteriorated marriage and family life and led to so many families breaking apart, becoming very dysfunctional. And um, it led to kind of the mess that we're in today where we see people very unhappy, very unhealthy, you know, obviously not, like you said, not practicing any sort of faith and disconnected from meaning and God and kind of falling into despair.

I mean, even we probably. You know, could talk about suicide rates and things like that. So it is really fascinating and with our audience of course, too, we see so many of these just really, um, heavy problems that they carry with because of the breakdown of their [00:07:00] families. And so I'm curious to go a little bit deeper into that survey.

So you studied, what was it, like 19,000? I. People.

JP: Yeah. There was 19,000 completed surveys of folks on Sunday morning. Okay. Those, uh, that would speak about the survey is that it's just folks who are in church on Sunday, Protestant and Catholic, across 13 states, 112 congregations. And what we found was that 80% of everybody sitting in the pews on Sunday morning grew up in a home where mom and dad stayed continuously married.

And, uh, what surprised us, and we were sharing this with some social scientists, we were working with collaborating on the, on the study. What surprised, uh, the sociologists we're working with is that that trend held regardless of age, once you get, you know, age 60 and below. Right. So if you look at, if, if you're a married guy and you're born in 1964, so you're the oldest baby boomer.

Joey: Mm-hmm.

JP: And, um, I'm sorry, you're the youngest baby boomer actually. Or if you're born in 1999, right? And both of you are, [00:08:00] and you're single married guy, born in 1964, single guy born in 1999, and you're in church on Sunday, 81% of both groups peers. Who are in church on Sunday, grew up in a home where mom and dad stayed continuously married.

Right? And so folks want to wonder why there aren't a higher number of people in church on Sunday. It's because there's less, I would argue there's, there's less people born in 1999 who have experienced the health of a married home, right? And we know that if you're less likely to have grown up in a married home, you're less likely to have experienced the love of an earthly father on a day-to-day basis.

Right? Uh. Because vast majority of those who are raised in a home where mom and dad aren't married, the large majority of those are, are being raised by mom. So we think there's this connection and, and I go into it in the, in the study, that it's becomes more challenging for individuals to accept the love of the Heavenly Father if they haven't experienced the love of an earthly father and I, and I think [00:09:00] there's some profound.

Inferences for all of us in both healing and in evangelism, where more frequently we don't always know. I think the research bears us out. We don't always know why we don't go to church or we don't always know why, and we can't give a logical set of explanations why I no longer believe or believe for a while.

Then maybe fell away because a lot of what's operating. These deeply held beliefs are, is operating on a much deeper psychological level, uh, a site In the, in the study, uh, Dr. Paul Vz, who's who had become, has become a friend over the years. He's now retired. He's the founder of the Institute for Psychological Sciences and Divine Mercy University.

He himself, Dr. Vz. Is a former atheist who was a, uh, professor at New York University, NYU, and was a, a chair in their psychology department. And his research identifies frequently within agnosticism and an atheism, a failure to [00:10:00] have healthy attachment to dad. And, uh,

Joey: interesting.

JP: Uh, you know, this has been subjected to peer review.

He's got, uh, some scholarly papers on this. He, he wrote a popular book on this called, uh, faith of the Fatherless. So I, I raise that to note that, you know, I think one of the things that we're seeing in church data is we're seeing the phenomenon of family breakdown and impacting and interacting with faith and makes it so important for us to seek one.

Uh, you know, I have. Those who've known me know that I got into this work because of some major family tragedies in my life. I, my wife and I raised a close family member's, uh, children due to a broken family and Wow. The of marriage. And, uh, we raised them when they were, started raising 'em from the age, age of 10, 11, 14, and 15.

And so just. Being aware of this, of these phenomenon are, are really important and important for us to uncover and seek healing because often consciously we're not [00:11:00] aware of how these wounds are interacting with us and shaping a lot of our, our decisions and, and shaping our lives and, and in invisible, invisible ways.

Joey: Yeah. No, it makes so much sense. And I, I totally understand what you're saying about you. You know, we can see trends, we can see correlation. We can't always like determine causation, but we can speculate. I think like your reasoning makes so much sense to me. And man, I love how data driven you are. It's so impressive.

And I'm curious, like, I think I understood it, but like, what about that 20%, the one in five people? Talk about that a little bit.

JP: Yeah. I love bringing this up, right? Um, it doesn't mean, uh, this is why I say it's a, a vitally important ingredient. It's not determinative. There's actually a lot of people in church on Sunday who came from a home where mom and dad didn't stay married.

Right? Yeah. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands on a day-to-day basis. Right? So this is important for us. We'll have some new research coming out. We're not principally a research organization. We're ministry that serves the local church. To equip the church to share the gospel through the renewal [00:12:00] of healthy relationships, marriage, and the family.

We, we want to come alongside everybody to have healthy relationships. And regardless of knowing that we all hunger for this, we all hunger for connection. We all hunger to know and to be known, to love and to be loved. And we think the local church should be a school of love that equips each of us to be able to do that.

Right? So it just so happens through our work naturally, we, we survey. At a church before we get started, we gather a lot of really useful data, Joey, that allows us to give some good insights back to the churches that we work with. And then when we gather enough of those surveys allows us to do a lot of fun things that you can't do in a 200 person survey at an individual church, and we'll have some new, new data out.

Gosh, later this month we'll have it probably be released in May on faith transmission. One of the big things that, that we see that that's a, a real positive that regardless of the family that you come from, that any parent can do and [00:13:00] should do, is it looks like having regular conversations and open conversations with your kids about faith.

That's super important. So it appears that not just get in a church with your parents as a kid, particularly getting to church with dad, but when dad has open conversations with you up. About Faith Weekly, and there's a huge, it appears to be a very significant lift, faith transmission from parent to child.

And when you, when you do it daily, it's much more frequently. And so knowing that we, as you know, single parents, you know, when we're picking up our child, running them, uh, to different errands or running. Kids to practice or school or what have you. Any parent, we can always just, you know, what, what, you know, Joey, what's God doing in your life today?

You know, what, what, what are you grateful for today that's happened? And just let, let our son or daughter marinate in that question and answer it, and in his own words. These are little things that we as parents can and should do. [00:14:00]

Joey: That's so good. I, I'm so excited today. See the new research to, to see what you guys find.

We'll definitely keep an eye on that. I'm curious, kind of going deeper into the data, whether it's this new study or the previous survey, were there any other like shocking or really interesting findings for you when it came to marriage and, and divorce in particular?

JP: Some good news 'cause I, I think we oftentimes focus on, on bad and that's.

There's good reasons to focus on bat for a variety of reasons. One, I think some people are motivated to run fast for gold medals, but others are motivated to run faster from German Shepherds. So like, I think in some ways, so bad news sometimes motivates people more than than good news. But on the good news.

Right. Uh, 82% of every married churchgoer said that they're very satisfied or completely satisfied in their marriage. So that's great. It's great news, right? We'd say so close to one in five weren't, you know, there. And that's okay. We know from our data that if you came from a family that wasn't intact through.

[00:15:00] Age 18, you're more likely to be struggling. What? It's not determinative. There's lots of people in church on Sunday who came from a home that was divorced or never married that are very happy or completely satisfied in their marriage. One of the, the big ahas to us is we, we added in our last survey the what's called the UCLA Loneliness index.

Okay? For those geeks who follow such things, loneliness has become a big topic. Uh, for folks to, in fact, if you are considered lonely by the public health measurement of it, you're, it's the equivalent. It's the health equivalent of a smoking 15 cigarettes a day, or in other words, it shortens your lifespan by about 15 years.

And there's a long 20 questions survey that's used by, by actually health insurance companies. To, to measure this to, for actuarial purposes, I'd like to help you, uh, you know, measure, you know, if you're a health insurance company, you want people to stay healthy 'cause that means you're collecting premiums without having to make payouts.

So you're trying to understand this [00:16:00] stuff. And so the fascinating, there's a three questions summary of that larger 20 question survey that's been proven to be very predictive of how you answer these three questions from. It largely predicts how you'd answer the full 20 question survey. So we added that.

To our church survey, and we wanted to understand how churchgoers are doing in loneliness and what we, we found was there's this massive, the loneliness challenge is largely a singleness challenge, right? We, we wouldn't have an epidemic of loneliness in our country if, if we had marriage rates similar to the early two thousands.

There's a reason why the epidemic doesn't start. And, uh, it's not first noted until the latter part of the first decade of, of the century. Wow. And so, um, the loneliest people in church on Sunday, uh, were not widows. Uh. We're not the elderly. Okay. What surprised us was that the loneliest group by on average were those that were [00:17:00] unmarried in their thirties.

Okay? That was the loneliest group. They were significantly more likely to be lonely than the loneliest group of widows. Which for those who were interested, the loneliest group of widows, based on the, the survey research were those in their widows widowers in their fifties. Okay. And so the never married and the divorced are substantial in, in their thirties, are substantially more likely to be lonely than those, than those widows.

So that is a big, it's a big deal. And, and at, at the local church level, you know, we talk about that pastorally, like right. There's stuff that we can do, particularly as married people try to be intentional about, I know my wife and I, we, we frequently will invite couples over for dinner. We, we try to go be intentional about inviting some of our friends that are single and divorced over, uh, for dinner.

Awesome. Uh, because we just know one, we've become friends with them. So it's just natural. We're not. We're forming fellowship. We're not conducting ongoing social science experiments, so it's great fellowship, but I've started in diving into this, this research, right? You just start [00:18:00] to realize, right? Uh, married people, my wife and I, we, we have eight kids.

We're a lot of, you know, we've got a lot of shares and plates and what have you on a very practical basis, you know, having a couple of our friends over, it's not very, it's a rounding error for us. And so we try to be intentional about. Opening up our home for Christian hospitality, and that's a great thing to do, you know?

Um, so a lot of ways that at the local church we should be thinking in terms of building heterogeneous community friendships with people at different age groups, uh, marital status, single, widowed, divorced, married, you know, we can, and married people. I, I think there's a gift that we have because, you know, the gift of family life is, you know, my wife and I were frequently making dinner for a number of people and just throwing a few extra isn't.

For us, you know, a huge logistical challenge. Whereas if you're a single person and you want to have my family over, it's 10 of us, it's not gonna happen in all likelihood. So it's also understanding reciprocity is less likely to happen in, right. [00:19:00] So, so oftentimes you ask a couple over, then they ask you over, and, uh, it's important for fellowship not to be seen as transactional in, in terms of reciprocity and friendship that way, right.

There's, I think a lot of things that we can do to inculcate a culture of Christian fellowship in our churches that break down l uh, the phenomenon of loneliness. Right? Um, and, and, and we can all do that, but then it's also, I think, important Joey, that we as at the local church level and then as parents, equip our, our young people for what does healthy relationship look like and to, you know, it's not a great mystery.

We don't have to be fearful. Even if we've experienced great trauma in our background, right? And there's reason to, there's obviously, you know, it's logical to be, to be fearful of that, of that trauma, but actually we've got great agency to overcome that and to know how to overcome it, know what a healthy relationship looks like, and to develop a new rhyme scheme in our life that allows us to enter marriage.[00:20:00]

A, in a healthy way and to discern what a healthy relationship looks like so that, you know, I can know, like this is not, you know, this is not a relationship that will allow me to break a generational cycle. Right. And know that early on and, and to be able to exit it. In a healthy way.

Joey: So good. There's so much that I wanna hit on.

Let's start with the healthy relationship piece. So, yeah, yeah. What do you guys teach in terms of like what a healthy relationship looks like, and then what are some of the tips and tactics that you guys teach in order to build those healthy relationships? Okay. Real talk. If you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy.

I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Elena certified. Personal trainer who we've partnered with, that's helped about a thousand people, and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks some of the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make, like undereating, overstressing, or focusing too much on the scale.

And he gives really simple, practical tips that you could actually use, you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna [00:21:00] get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free, and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically.

Emotionally,

JP: so I'd encourage, so I've co-wrote a book with, with John Van App, who's a, a psychologist and really I co-wrote it with him because he's probably the country's leading expert on healthy relationships around the single life and dating his curriculum, uh, how to avoid falling in love with a jerk.

Or jerk at is the most commonly used curriculum by sailors, airmen, and Marines in the, by the military chaplaincy teaching these habits. Okay. And, uh, uh, so the book is called End Game and, uh, section two of the book goes into these in much more detail. But I'll, I'll touch on these. So if you think about, so John goes into the science of attachment.

Okay. And there's five dimensions of healthy human attachment, okay? Imagine a soundboard, okay? Going from left to right and each knob can go up or down. You got no trust, rely, commit, touch. Okay? And those can go [00:22:00] up and down. Okay? Think about what does. The world tell us that relationships, which knobs should go up first of those five knobs, right?

Typically, what the world will tell you is move, touch right to the top as fast as you can, right? Like, um, why not start with a sexual embrace or a sexual relationship? And now we're doing that, that knob goes up for those who can see what might move my hand up and down, so that knob goes up. But we don't yet really know the person.

We don't yet trust the person. We haven't yet been able to build enough trust that where we can reasonably be expected to rely on 'em. And that reliance. Then is not sufficient to really commit to 'em. And so what then ends up happening is we've moved to a level of, of intimate attachment to somebody where none of those other four dimensions are there.

And when that happens, what what ends up happening psychologically is, is even if the most committed. Sexual anarchist [00:23:00] who believes that, um, sex is just a bodily function and it's just, you know, a little different than sneezing. Okay. Even when you try that, pursue that to its logical conclusion, that person can't really explain why when they see the person that they engaged in that.

Meaningless sexual encounter goes and has sex with somebody else. There's something there where they feel betrayed, even though they don't want to admit that they feel betrayed. It's because we're actually biologically made for attachment. Our body creates chemicals that, that fuel love. And then when there's that betrayal, it, it actually creates a, a feeling of jealousy.

And that's, that's a biochemical response. And so you go, okay, well then what's the right way to order it? Right? Well then the right way to order it is those, think back to those knobs, no, trust, rely, commit, touch. Right? So we, we, we go in steps and, and when you meet somebody, think in terms of, of discernment of a relationship.

As a one [00:24:00] to two year process. Right. We don't want to accelerate it. It's a process of you've gotta learn to know somebody going on a date and, and we, we want to go through a process of getting to know somebody. Okay. And there, there needs to be a level of emotional chastity, right. Just kind of. If we don't need a bear our soul on the very first date, okay?

There's a get to know, uh, a person's likes, dislikes, getting to know what motivates them, what, what their hopes and dreams, what their close friendships are. That's all through the process. That's all that first column that to know. Right. And the more we get to know someone, the better the, you know, the, the more we can trust them, but we never trust them more than we know them.

Okay. And one of the parts of that no process is that we should, how does the person treat those friends that are closest to them? How do they treat? They're closest family members. Right. Okay. What's the nature of those relationships? Okay. That should tell us over time, over a long time horizon. I will not be treated better than that [00:25:00] person treats their closest relationships.

Joey: Hmm.

JP: Okay. So that's one of the ways that we can start to know. How they may treat us later, right? When, when that person's not trying to impress us, when that person's not trying to win us over. Okay? So as how we see that person treat his or her closest relationships, friends, okay? That can help us think into the future, how they may treat us, and then we can move us up, the trust knob, right?

And then, then as we start to trust more, right, we can start to rely on them more. But we never rely on them more than we trust them. Hmm.

Joey: Don't

JP: place ourselves into a situation where , we don't yet have a deep trust with 'em. But now I have to rely, like, okay, moving in with somebody quickly in a relationship, cohabitate super early.

Now I'm, I've maxed out reliance, right? I'm literally tying myself financially to this other person.

Joey: Totally. Okay.

JP: And, and I'm relying on them at a level where the person is saying at the beginning, Hey, the reason we're gonna move in is I'm gonna try to get to know whether or not this person is good [00:26:00] for me when, no, that's, we're outta sequence here.

Okay. We're not able, we're compromising our ability to be free, free to enter into deeper areas of that relationship by compromising my financial independence and my emotional independence. Because I'm physically placing myself in super close proximity to that person at all times where I can't step away and discern what's happening in the relationship, right.

And then commit, right? That commitment never should. Sometimes, uh, particularly active churchgoers can err on the side of becoming very emotionally unchained in the sense that they commit and behave like their spouses when they've just started dating. And, you know, we don't wanna move a level of commitment beyond, as a, as a knob on that sort of soundboard, so to speak.

We don't wanna move that to the top. And so one of the ways I think this manifests itself is when we start to see some red flags in the relationship, in the know and trust space. Some early red flags, we're [00:27:00] overly committed and won't exit the relationship at a time that's probably appropriate, uh, because we're overly committed very early on.

Right. So those are, so those five dimensions, I think really good. John, his book, uh, his, he's got a series called the RAM series that we bring to churches, uh, which is a, a, a small group model, uh, that we help churches deliver. We've got some churches using, he's got a facilitator led program that we get our churches to use for singles, help him teach, you know, healthy dating habits and relationships.

And the cool thing is if you know these, these tips, there's some basic things that we can start to do to. Avoid relationships aren't gonna be healthy for us.

Joey: Totally love that. Thanks for sharing and thanks for going into such depth. I think it makes so much sense. I'd never heard it like that sounds super helpful and I love that you're making it so practical and tactical.

I'm curious, um. I wanna go back to something you said, changing gears a little bit about marriage rates. So you mentioned how marriage rates have fallen, and we certainly see that a lot with our [00:28:00] audience, that there's just a ton of fear around, you know, maybe repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in their own lives, repeating the patterns they saw in their parents' marriage, and they just don't want that.

And as a result, they just. Give up on love, give up on marriage, give up on commitment. And so I'm curious, um, two things. One, how have marriage rates dropped? I'm curious if you know any of the numbers there. And then two, what would you say to those young people who are like, I just, like, I kinda wanna get married.

I have that desire to for love, but I'm really scared.

JP: Yes. First question first. Right. Uh, there are 31% less marriages annually now than in the year 2000. Wow. Okay. There are 65% less marriages now. Then the year 1970. In 1970, the late sixties, something like 90, about 91% of college graduated men, 8 88, 9% of college graduated women, 85 to 7% of high school educated men and women were married before the age of 30.

[00:29:00] Okay. Um, in the late and, and certainly much before that, uh, in the sixties and seventies, and, uh. Today, uh, it's plummeted for both groups. Um, the college educated is hovering around 70%, which is objectively a major reduction, but it's, it's, uh, far, far worse, uh, for those who don't have a college education.

And so what we know about those folks in. The non-college educated orbit, they're more likely, uh, to have suffered from, come from a home where mom and dad didn't stay married. And there is reasonably right, the, it's not irrational. Folks who struggle, who came from a non-intact home are more likely to, uh, struggle in their marriages and, and to end up divorced.

That said, it's actually, that leads to the fear and paralysis and what we see. Is that there's actually, there's intentional steps that we can take to both heal and there's intentional steps that we can take to have a great marriage and a great [00:30:00] relationship. So what oftentimes happens is there's this idea that a great marriage is just sort of like a bolt of lightning.

It's sort of sort random chance. I hear pastors and preachers say that talk in this way, half of all marriages end in divorce and sort of reinforce this. Coin flip sort of fortune, you know, favors the brave kind of mentalities, which is I, I believe, is reckless and foolish. And so if you're a preacher or a pastor and you, you've repeated these lines, uh, I think you're, you're doing your people a disservice even though it's well intended.

Okay? The reality is, is, is the divorce rates actually never hit 50%. 50% of all divorces have never ended in divorce. And I would refer you to a, a book written by Shanti Feldon, uh, called the, the Good News About Marriage. And the, the best source for that is that in the early eighties at the peak of the divorce revolution, the trend in divorce was so high that scholars began to say in the early eighties that half of all marriages will end in divorce.

And it was implied on. The trend [00:31:00] continued to grow and it, it didn't continue to grow. Okay? First time, we're probably looking at somewhere around between 35 and, and 38% of all first time marriages will end in divorce, which, which may not seem like a significant difference, but the big differences is talking about well over six.

You know, the vast majority of first time marriages will last a lifetime. Okay.

Joey: Wow.

JP: That's if we don't know anything and don't do anything. That's just everybody. And then, then there's things that you can do to increase your aunt substantially. Okay? And, uh, you know, it turns out if, if, if you go to church regularly, okay?

If you pray regularly, okay, as a couple, that has a huge, uh, medicinal impact and a great impact. Pray as a couple. Has a, has a huge impact on a, on the health of a, of a relationship. There's also skills, uh, for those are, there's going to church and, and prayer. These are examples of spiritual skills, but there's also human skills to have a good relationship.

There's five interpersonal, five intrapersonal skills [00:32:00] that are known and knowable that we, when we work with churches, we help them build out. An ongoing ministry to help singles and marrieds practice these skills and, and be good at them. Okay. And then for, for the singles, we can ask ourselves questions, right?

There's questions in the discernment process, right? Does this person make me a better version of myself or am I a worse version of myself? Okay. Does this person in matters of faith, do they help me grow in my faith or make it harder for me in my walk? My faith walk. How does the person get along with his or her parents right now?

I say that knowing a lot of people listening might come from a home, right? Who do come from a home where mom and dad didn't stay married. The question is, is you know, to the extent that it's appropriate, does the person treat each parent with, with honor? Even when, uh, there's been some woundedness, right?

So that is an interesting and an important, right? We can know how [00:33:00] that person will treat us over time by understanding how anybody treats their closest relationships.

Joey: If you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment online community, and much more.

All of our resources are designed. Help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you wanna view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry.com/resources or click on the link in the show notes.

JP: And so, so this is in our own lives. This is why healing is so important, right? It doesn't mean, right. There's, there's forgiveness, but then there's also obviously setting up healthy boundaries, which is important, right? So do we, can we get ourselves to a place where there's forgiveness and there is a, a treatment of our parents with a level of honor?

That is biblically morally [00:34:00] asked of us doesn't mean we think that mom and dad were right in all the things that they did right and, and in the hurts that they caused. But in the role of mom and dad, are we able to get to a, a place of enough healing where, where we're able to pray for them and to honor them for giving us life.

If we can do that, and if the person that we're dating or in a journey and discerning whether or not they're a good spouse, uh, that's a really helpful data point, right? For somebody as we're discerning a spouse, right? And so there's things that we, that we can do in that regard. And then of course, avoiding riskier steps like cohabitation.

What it does is it prevents us from being able to. Actually better know someone beforehand, even though it, you, you think it's going to cause you to quickly get to know somebody. Actually, it hinders our freedom. It's because one of the parts of being able to know is you have to be able to step back and, and process.

Right. And [00:35:00] when we're physically in the same dwelling, it makes it. It's harder for us to be able to step back and really, and really reflect on what we're learning about that person. Okay. And, and that's a, an important part of, of our discernment process. Right. So, so anyways, I say, you know, some good news, uh, for all of the listeners is that the skills to have a healthy relationship, both spiritually and, and on the human side are known and knowable.

We can practice them and become good at them, can discern and make an in an informed choice that will allow us to enter marriage well. Right. And then. And the vast majority, the happiest people in America are married people and married people with kids. Okay. And married people with kids who go to church.

When you add up all those things, they're, they tend to be, on average, the happiest. Brad Wilcox's. New, new research shows that actually, you know, things like that. The secular world tells us, right. A good sex life, right? The people who report having the most frequent sex are married. Churchgoers, okay. On average are, have [00:36:00] sex more frequently than their secular counterparts.

Right? So like any way that you have, slice it. Okay. There's a lot of good news and good reasons to be intentional about pursuing marriage. Just it's, it's not a great, it's not a great mystery. How you can live marriage. Well, and I think that's a, we have agency and that's what I would encourage your listeners.

Joey: I love it. No, and it sounds like just the resources you're offering at community as well as your book and game has more specific tactics and principles that they can employ, which I love. And, um, quickly, one question. Um, you, you mentioned there was a group of people who came from families where the parents weren't continuously married yet they were not necessarily struggling or they were very happy, satisfied in their marriages.

Did they basically just do everything that you said or were there any other like hallmark data points? I. That's like, okay, this is why they're different.

JP: Oh, so our survey wasn't longitudinal, so we couldn't go back in time to ask 'em and we didn't ask. We've got, in the new set of data that we've collected, we have asked some additional questions [00:37:00] on faith practice that could allow us to answer that question better.

But we do know, look, people who pray together as a couple do better together as a couple, right? People who, who go and worship together as a couple do better together as a couple. Okay. That, that's known and knowable. Okay. And that's from the general social survey, which is a federally run survey every other year.

Okay. That has a battery of questions that any, anybody can dive into the book, get married by. Brad Wilcox goes into, goes into that and unpacks some of this stuff. And he goes, he interviews individuals who've come from homes where mom and dad weren't married or didn't stay married. Have been successful in their own marriage.

So I think there's, you know, knowledge is power and then, you know, sometimes we just make people, we can, especially in the church, make folks think that, you know, there's one of the things that I see as this phenomenon of, of sort of, there's just this one person out there for me. And, and so there's, you know, however many billion people on the planet.

So I guess if [00:38:00] there's this one person, hopefully that person's not in like, you know, outer Mongolia or something like, hopefully, you know, closer to my zip code. And, um, you know, I, I tell people, and this, none of this is intended to be at anything determinative on, on my views on God's sovereignty. And, and man's free will.

But, but I will say my wife could have married any number of other guys and been happy and thrived in her marriage. And I could have probably married any number as hard as it is to, to imagine, could imagine married any number of other people and been happy and thrived in my marriage. So sometimes we, we can make this perfect, the enemy of something great.

Okay. Nobody's perfect. No relationship is perfect. There's a lot of great relationships out there, and we can have a great relationship that leads to marriage. Right? And once I think we let our, let go of this idea of, of perfection and the perfect one that's out there, right? Uh, I was deficient in a variety of areas.

My life, and thanks be to God. I, I met my wife and she helped me grow in areas that I was weak in. And, and she would tell you, I, I helped her [00:39:00] reciprocally and we're better as, as a result, complementarity is a great thing.

Joey: Amen. No, so good. I could go on forever with you, but I wanna, I. Kind of bring us to the end here.

And one of the things I wanted to say, I love that point you made of like, knowledge is power and like learning these skills and then, you know, learning how to do them, learning the knowledge and then putting them to action is so key. And I would say what's been helpful for me and just the, you know, countless young people that we've served is the mentorship component.

Just being around people like you had mentioned before, who are living out the life that you wanna live. Like they have good marriages, they have, you know, good families, healthy families. That's just been, I mean, I'm, I'm sure you're not surprised by this, but that's just been such a clear trend even in these like dozens of interviews I've done with young people, you know, or even middle aged people from broken families who end up having really healthy marriages.

They all say, yeah, there was this one family I would spend a lot of time around and they were just, were like really inspirational and they kind of taught me by their example for me too. There were. Two families who are just really inspirational and they, I learned from their example by their modeling, like, oh, this is how you build a good marriage.

This is how you [00:40:00] disagree in a respectful way. This is how you, you know, show affection and all those things. Yeah. So, so I think there's just such a powerful lesson there, but I wanted to feel free to comment on any, any of that. But I'd love to hear more about communal, what you offer and any cool stories of transformation before we close down here.

JP: I can't agree with that anymore. Right. Uh, and this is why the church needs to be and can be such a powerful school of love and the school of love, right? It's living li one of the reasons we call ourselves communo. The word in Latin means community, right? We learn to love by example. And as, as married couples, we should be inviting folks into our lives, uh, just to be friends.

To let them into the messiness of our life and see the, the, the rhythms of marriage and family life. And I think if you're a person who has experienced trauma and challenge in your own life, seek out friendships in, in your church who are, uh, men and women who you, you look at and go, there's something, there's something there that I'd, I'd love to, I'd love to [00:41:00] emulate.

There's something there that I'd like to learn more about and, and seek conversations with them. Uh, seek friendships with them. Uh, so, so we, as a ministry, we operate, no, no individual or couple can ever come to a commun communal program because our customer, so to speak, is always the local church. So we've worked with more than 300 churches in 30 states across America from, uh, Montana to Florida, uh, California and Washington state, all the way, you know, out to Connecticut and Massachusetts.

So, and we work in Protestant churches, evangelical churches. Uh, we've worked in Catholic parishes. You have to be Trinitarian churches that hold to a Christian worldview on what is biblical marriage, a biblical worldview on what is marriage. And um, and so we coach churches provide a suite of services. We know that a lot of folks who work in the church don't have the time to go get a Master's of Divinity.

And frankly, there aren't. A lot of great programs out there that you can go and seek that make it practical how to do ministry well for singles and marriage. So [00:42:00] we've done the homework to bring that to the local church. Our work, uh, grew out of a, a successful initiative that lowered the divorce rate in Jacksonville, Florida by 24% in three years.

In 2016 to 2018, uh, produced nearly $70 million of of taxpayer savings, and, uh, worked with 93 churches across Duval County, and we took what we in that three year span, we moved 58. Those churches moved 58,912 people through four hour or longer relationship skills ministry. We invited people in who weren't members of those churches, into those churches into ministry.

Uh, when that project ended, we didn't yet have a, a business model of how to serve churches and scale that. So from 2019 to 2022, we really were refining that and we've begun to now scale that in churches across the country. I was just out in, in Arizona with the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention.

We're working with on a statewide level with Baptist churches across Arizona, work at in large Catholic diocese, and we're equipping these [00:43:00] local churches to share the gospel. And I say that right, Jesus. Shared the gospel first. He performed signs and wonders. And those signs and wonders were not card tricks, they weren't magic tricks.

He solved real people's problems. And, um, the real problem that we have in this 21st century moment is the isolation and the loneliness that comes from broken relationships, broken marriages. And so there's a great. Place that the local church can enter into and equip people to love and be loved Well, and, and that's what we do in the, in the local church building community, right?

Uh, through fun, engaging events, things that people want to go to, young people want to go to, and while they're there and having fun and forming friendships, they're actually, uh, growing in their ability to have great relationships at, at great. Great marriages, God's blessed incredibly. I, I'm humbled by the provision that God's provided, uh, this ministry and excited by what's coming, uh, coming down the pike.

If folks who are listening wanna get involved, see how Communo can [00:44:00] come to your church, go to communo do org. You can sign up for, we've got free ministry tips. Uh, I've shared some data on this. There is a, a study that's downloadable that you can get. I heard you. That's a good place to start. Download the study.

Read it, share it with your church's leadership, share it with your small group, and there are 10 takeaways at the end of that. And then if you think it makes sense that we can bring us in, we can, uh, one of our church engagement officers can meet with your church's leadership and we can explore a potential partnership, uh, with, with, with your church.

Joey: That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and actually help us reach more people by doing that. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. That feedback is super valuable.

We appreciate that and that also helps people find us as well. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we are here to [00:45:00] help. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning.

But you can start where you are and change the ending.

Kids Are Resilient…Right?

2 minute read.

This story was written by Ella Grace at 60 years old. Her parents separated at 10. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

My parents had opposite personalities. Dad was extremely extroverted, Mom was extremely introverted. My dad was away a lot on business and my mom got used to running everything on her own. I wouldn't say they had fights, but my father would shout at my mother, call her names, and she would just sit there and cry. The final straw was when my dad met a young female coworker. She was more sociable than my mom and understood my dad's business dealings as she was in the same line of work. They fell in love. At the time, the prevailing attitude was that it was better for parents to split up than stay in an unhappy marriage. Kids were resilient and would be fine. So my parents divorced. Three months later, my dad married his coworker.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

At the time, I was relieved that all the shouting and crying were over. My dad lived in a big city and it was exciting to visit him. His new wife acted more like a big sister to me than a mother. She took me shopping and she was very fashionable, so my teenage self liked that very much. It wasn't until I was turning 40 that I realised how damaged I was from my dad's abandonment and the subsequent divorce. Unlike many children of divorce, I never blamed myself. It was very clear that my parents were mismatched and my dad was a bully.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

I was promiscuous as a teen and it got even worse after my own divorce. I was hopeful and trusting that every guy I met was "the one" who would love and cherish me and take care of me. I'd meet a guy and already be fantasising about being married after 2 or 3 dates, if we even got to that point.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Find a trusted and neutral adult that you can talk to in confidence. Let them know that God will never abandon them.

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#145: Mother Wounds, “Parts Work” Therapy, & Healing from a Broken Family | Dr. Gerry Crete

Growing up, Dr. Gerry experienced deep turmoil at home. His father was abusive, and his parents’ marriage was full of conflict. When they eventually divorced, he felt like he lost both parents. Feeling alone, he became highly independent. 

Thankfully, he found healing, and today he helps others heal as a therapist. In this episode, we discuss:

• How Internal Family Systems (IFS) and “parts work” can help you heal emotional wounds and improve your relationships.

• The way our parts interact with our significant other—and how to avoid choosing a spouse from a wounded part of you.

• What a mother wound is and how it affects you

• How movies like Inside Out, Encanto, and even Avengers’ movies illustrate “parts work” and the healing journey.

If you have perhaps sustained a mother wound or want to heal using Internal Family Systems, this episode is for you.

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide: The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

Buy Dr. Gerry’s Book: Litanies of the Heart: Relieving Post-Traumatic Stress and Calming Anxiety through Healing Our Parts

View Dr. Gerry’s Team or schedule a FREE 15 min consult

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Dr. Gerry (00:00.142)

This is not all about narcissism or just self-focused kind of stuff. No, this is about loving ourselves properly. And when we do love ourselves properly, as we do develop this harmony, we are able to love others so much better. When we're young, we're not well equipped to cope. There's a part of me that wants to get everything done. And there's a part of me going, why can't you just relax? Why can't you chill out? Part of the reason why the part is stuck there is because of usually it's some kind of traumatic.

What are mother wounds?

Dr. Gerry (00:29.678)

painful thing. They're also holding strong emotions attached to that, that the system has said, whoa, we can't handle that because they haven't been processed or whatever.

I wanted to transition a little bit to movies because I think it's another great way of understanding parts work.

Welcome to the Resort Podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorced or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. guest today is Dr. Jerry Creed. He founded Transformation Counseling and Coaching. He authored Litanies of the Heart, relieving post-traumatic stress and calming anxiety through healing our parts. He's a therapist with experience in trauma and anxiety disorders. Dr. Creed.

This trained also in internal family systems and ego state therapy. He's also an EMDR certified therapist and consultant. Dr. Creed worked with individuals, couples and families and he teaches at St. Vincent's Seminary in La Trobe, Pennsylvania. Growing up, Dr. Jerry experienced deep turmoil at home. His father was abusive and his parents' marriage were just full of conflict. When they eventually did divorce, even though was his dad who left the home, he really felt like he lost both parents and as you can expect, that left him feeling really alone. So he became very independent.

Now, thankfully he found a lot of healing and today he helps others heal as a therapist. In this episode, we discuss how his family's dysfunction and his parents' divorce affected him and how he healed, how internal family systems and parts work can help you heal and improve your relationships, how our parts interact with our significant other, boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, and how to avoid choosing a spouse from a wounded partner. Really important part of the conversation. We talk about what a mother wound is and how it affects you and how movies like Inside Out.

Dr. Gerry (02:03.054)

you

Joey (02:10.006)

and even the Avengers movies illustrate parts work and the healing journey. And so if you perhaps have sustained a mother wound or you want to find some healing using internal family systems, this episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm really glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. With that, here's our conversation.

Joey (02:42.84)

Dr. Jerry, so good to have you on the show. We haven't wanted to do this for a while. Welcome. I want to start with maybe an obvious question, kind of a deep question, is why do care so much about helping people and helping them heal?

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Gerry (02:55.726)

That is a big question. I mean, I think some of it goes back to my own childhood and my own upbringing and even, you know, having, you know, had different kinds of trauma, different forms of abuse as a child, different parents, you know, splitting up. very difficult relationships sometimes there and, you know, and yet at the same time, discovering some resilience, obviously, but also discovering God, discovering my faith.

exploring that, being able to heal to some extent through communities, through working with people and the experience of growth, if you will, and healing and my own life and my own journey, still not done, still quite imperfect. But nevertheless, the journey has led me just in wanting to help people, you know, to whatever extent that I've experienced the love and healing of God and also often through people. I want to impart that too.

So a big part of my desire to help others is partly because of the grace that I've received. So that's informed it. And I think some of that is just who I am and who God made me. Like there is an aspect of just my own personality, my different, my inner workings that, you know, I'm fascinated by, right? And I'm, I have a definitely, there's a parts of me that are very intellectual and want to research and write and I love that aspect of me. And then there's another parts of me that are more relating, right?

care about connection, care about relating with others and like to see people connect and grow and really have healthy relationships. So some of that is just values that are kind of embedded in, in who I am as I've discovered myself. Love that.

Yeah, I remember hearing, I think, John Eldred say something like, you he's a counselor by training, but also by intuition. And you very much so hit me as like someone in the same vein, which is beautiful. You mentioned that your parents split, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing like what happened there. And yeah, how did that affect you, especially because everyone listening right now, you know, comes from a dysfunctional family, divorced family.

Dr. Gerry (04:58.358)

separated family. So my parents had a very unhealthy relationship. My dad himself had a very traumatic childhood of his own. And know, he got married, he was a very kind of like, I would say at this point, like a broken person, but he was abusive. So I have, you know, pretty serious father wound issue there. And so in fact, my parents would fight. And, you know, I can even recall many times their fighting was very frightening.

you know, for me as a child. And so in that process too, I probably like idealized my mother a little in that, but because she was the parent who was the responsible one, she was a parent who was nurturing, she was a parent who was, you know, reliable. So at some point I can remember wishing my parents were divorced. Like I, it was so unhappy, it was so much turmoil and chaos in the home that I kind of...

please end it and the kind of thing. the case of my situation, my mother, she worked as a secretary. She worked as an administrative jobs, wasn't highly paid or anything, but she was always had a job and she was security. Whereas my dad was always losing his jobs or different, know, was not reliable in that way. And I just thought, well, what, you know, what do we need him for? in a way, like we can't, get away from this pain and all this stress and everything else.

Eventually there was kind of a big event that happened that was where he left. I don't know how much you want me get into my story. This isn't my therapy session or anything, but he left and so that was in early high school, I think. But then there was the issue of my mother going through depression, her going through lot of stress and disconnection. So in a way, when my parents divorced, there was a sense in which I lost both parents.

in that and so this was me in high school so yeah so I understand the experience of divorce but I know it's different for different people for some people it's losing a parent that they were attached to in my case there was a sense of both like losing I was wanting a relationship with my mom to continue and it felt very disrupted so it felt very alone

Dr. Gerry (07:12.362)

actually, and probably the refuge for me were my friends. I had a girlfriend at the time, but I also think that through that, I just became very independent. And I figured I have to, you know, sell things on my own and do things on my own. If anything's going to happen, if anything's going to change in a way that's good and in a way that's bad, right? I learned that sort of a good thing to be independent in a way, but it was sad because it took me a while to learn that I could trust people, you know.

Thanks for sharing all that. And I definitely have felt similar with the whole independence, like quality, where in some environments, like the business world, that independence is like very valuable, very good. And then, but in relationships, like you said, it can be really, make things really difficult. I've definitely experienced that in my dating relationships, friendships, and especially within my marriage. And so yeah, I definitely relate with you on that. yeah, I can relate with you too on the side of losing both parents. It was a similar situation.

With my family, details were different, but dad left and mom was left to kind of take care of everything. And it was just too much, like you said, for her to just do it all. And so naturally us kids got neglected. And so, especially because I was really attached to my dad, that was like a major loss for me. And I loved my mom too, but she was just so occupied and busy that it was definitely a tricky situation. And that's where, like you said, you kind of, as a kid, you get this feeling that like, well, it's just like me against the world. Like I better figure it out because no one's really got my back. And so I'm going to.

have to just kind of push forward. And we've seen that a lot with the young people that we serve as well. And so, yeah, it can relate on so much of that.

Yeah, yeah. I think that, not that I didn't make some mistakes or do some things that I regret, but I did end up kind of finding in that process, you know, if you will, a relationship with Christ. And I did find a relationship also in community, in faith communities, even in high school. So that was kind of life changing, I think, for me, because I feel like if I didn't have that, could have, it would have gone in a very different direction my whole life.

Dr. Gerry (09:14.254)

And so I'm really grateful. So even though I guess I felt I feel kind of like abandoned, I suppose, by parents, you know, God provided. I had to be willing, I had to be open, but He was providing for me things that I needed. The other element of it is that being open to whatever suffering, whatever pain that one experiences in being open to how that in God, in Christ, can be transformed for good. So

To get back ultimately to the question you asked me initially about like, do I even, why do I want to help people? Like there's a sense in which, well, when I help, if I'm working with people, like I'm a counselor, right? So if I'm helping people resolve wounds and hurts and whether they're mother wounds or father wounds or whatever traumas from their life, there's a part of me that feels like I'm being a vehicle for that. And so God is working through me to make a positive difference. And so much of my ability to empathize and understand

and make sense of, connect with, is partly because of what I experienced. So I feel like I can use those things. Sometimes we don't see that when we're younger, usually. It takes a while for us to recognize how our suffering can be redemptive, it can be transformative.

I can't agree more. Yeah, I think it's important to say that because sometimes when we're stuck in the midst of it, it can feel so overwhelming. We can feel swallowed by it. We can feel like, you know, it's senseless and there's no purpose to it. But it's almost like we're stuck in the middle of a story. And I know we're going to get into stories and movies a little bit later, but we're literally like in the beginning or the middle of the story. We haven't really seen how it ends yet. And you know, if you leave a movie earlier, stop reading a book.

in middle, you're not gonna see the resolution. And I do believe maybe life is messy and there's not ever maybe perfect resolutions to everything, but there are resolutions. I firmly believe that. And I've seen that in my own life too. And one of the resolutions for me has been that, there's been, especially men in my life who have mentored me and kind of stepped into that father role, kind of making up in many ways for what I lacked at home. so, and I have a good relationship with my dad now. I love him. But if I'm honest, there were definitely certain ways in which it...

Joey (11:23.534)

there was like a deprivation there. so, but yeah, it's cool to see. And it's cool that I love seeing, you know, how you're using something that was painful to you. You've grown from it and now you're using it to help other people to empathize and all that. So, good. One thing I wanted to mention too, for everyone listening, sometimes the young people we work with feel some level of guilt for wanting their parents to get divorced, like you had mentioned. And I think one of the most helpful things on this topic has been just understanding that there's kind of, there's two categories of divorce. I know you know this, but for everyone listening,

Dr. Paul Amato is at Penn State, he's a sociologist there and he's done a ton of research on this topic and basically he says, typically marriages that end in divorce fit into one of two categories, high conflict or low conflict. High conflict is what you might imagine, like what you were describing Dr. Jerry, of like, there's a lot of just visible dysfunction, there's bad fighting, there might be abuse, violence, things like that. And in those situations, the children do benefit from a split.

You know, maybe it's temporary to a lot of some healing to happen. Maybe it's so serious that it needs to be more permanent, but that accounts for about 30 % of divorces according to the motto. And on the flip side, you have low conflict, which is situations where from the kid's perspective, at least, and I should have said that with high conflict, high conflict, the kids like kind of observe it all, they're privy to it. In low conflict, the kids are kind of hidden far from it, or at least it's more covert. It's hidden from their eyes. They kind of assume and think everything's fine, even if they have like an idea that maybe things aren't perfect, things are kind of dysfunctional.

it's not to that same high degree. And so when a divorce happens in those families, it really comes out of the blue. It really hits them in the back of the head and they're like, wow, I never saw this coming. And so I found that to be really helpful to understand that there's those two major kind of categories and in the high conflict situation, it makes sense that someone would want to get out of that.

And in the low conflict, it makes sense that someone would just say, my goodness, this was just like taken out from underneath me. Like, who will I be able to trust? Like if this thing, my family, which was supposed to be the most permanent, the most foundational thing in the world is taken from me, like what's not going to fall apart in my life.

Dr. Gerry (13:21.102)

No, I like what you say there. And I think that's important distinction. I've grounded a little bit around security too. So if you have a relationship, a parental relationship, a family that feels secure to you, and then suddenly you find out, my parents are having a divorce and I had no idea. That is a sudden trauma because it's like, I thought I was in a safe place and all of a sudden I'm not. Whereas the high conflict example you gave, maybe since as long as they can remember, there has always been insecurity.

So you go from insecurity, which is your normal, and wanting the divorce feels like moving to security, in some level. I mean, maybe not perfect security, but at least better than what was there. So, I don't know, for me, that's how I kind of frame it, a little bit is around that, safety and security.

Yeah, no, that's a great way to frame it because there are so many variables and you know, I think that model that a motto gives is like helpful, but there's, know, it's like every model there's imperfections in it. So I really like what you said about that. And maybe we'll have to do a whole another show on that topic of like attachment theory and everything. Um, because it's such an important topic, but yeah. Um, thank you for going into all that for sharing. I want to pivot a little bit to talk about the type of therapy that you do, uh, with parts work. And so starting out to someone listening who has never heard of.

Parts work and parts, like what do we mean when we're talking about that?

The whole idea of parts work and the most well-known at the moment type of parts work is called internal family systems, IFS. There's other models that do exist and have existed, but this sort of, this type of therapy is recognizing that within our mind, if you will, within our heart, if you will, inside us, there's a multiplicity or there are different parts. You could say sub-personality maybe.

Dr. Gerry (15:09.614)

but there's different parts that exist in a sense, uh, or at least phenomenologically exist. And they represent a different parts of us. And so if we treat the human being, the human person, like they're just one thing, your personality is just one thing. I think we are missing a whole lot. And once I learned about multiplicity, about the fact that, we have different parts within and you start working with your different parts.

So the therapy is about get connecting inside, looking inside, discovering all these different parts. And this is not talking about multiple personality disorder, anything like that. That's an extreme disorder of one's parts, but we naturally have different aspects of self. And so one way I would look at it would be like, there are a part of me as a, a manager more type of part, who's going to be super good with getting work done.

You know, I'm task oriented, that shows up for me when it may be in a job, shows up for me around the house, maybe if I am organized or whatever. So like, have a part that's like task oriented, right? And when you meet that part of me, if he's, if he's a little bit focused, he's going to be like not paying very much attention to you. And he's going to be like wanting to get his job done possibly as an example. And then, but I have another part of me that, Hey, is kind of chill and just wants to like, Hey, I want to just relax.

You know, uh, smoke my pipe and watch, you know, a movie and just chill out. Well, that's a different part of me that if you encountered him, this part of aspect of me, then you would have a very different impression of who I am. Right. So you could say there's different roles, right? So my parts have different roles. Um, so that, I don't know that gives you some sense of what parts are, but when you're working with people, we recognize that these parts, a lot of these parts I just described like.

manager parts or this other more relaxed and chilled out part, they're all kind of, they are often protecting. They have roles, but they're often protecting. And one of their jobs, especially the manager ones, is to protect us from being overwhelmed by pain or shame or fear or any emotion, or maybe a very disturbing memory or whatever. They're protecting us from being overwhelmed as a system. And what we learned is that when you look past those

Dr. Gerry (17:36.652)

protective manager awesome parts, but when you look past them, we have other parts that we call exiles and those those parts that they're often show up. We could be connect with them like often it's they show up as children or adolescents not always, but most of the time and it's because those parts are kind of stuck often in time if you will and so or developmentally they're still in the place they were and part of the reason why the part is stuck there is because of usually it's kind of some kind of

traumatic, painful thing. So those exiled parts are holding those difficult memories, if you will, and they're off. But what can happen, though, is they're also holding strong emotions attached to that. But the system has said, whoa, we can't handle that because they haven't been processed or whatever it is. And so we've got to exile it keep it away. But it's really just being tucked in our unconscious mind. And when we're not obviously we're not conscious, all this is going on.

But something happens, right? Maybe somebody says something unkind to me or somebody says something happens, something bad takes place or whatever that triggers those exiled parts. And then they suddenly show up in some way by flooding my system. those emotions are connected to sometimes those past things. And so my system is flooded. And so then I have other protective parts that leap into action to like shove that back.

Right. And that can be anything from alcohol consumption or drug consumption. It can be like anger, rage or something. It can be like, can just be numbing out in some way, binge watching TV, binge video games, whatever. Like these are all like reactive things to, whoa, keep that exile at bay. Meanwhile, we have other parts of our system with the role of being like a manager to make sure that never even gets to that point. So.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that we've got this whole little system going on inside and the therapy, the parts work therapy is about connecting with and helping all these different parts within us. all parts of you, they're me, right? And helping them be healthy, bringing those dials home, loving them and giving them what they needed, helping those protective parts do their job in a healthier way. And then what happens in the end is, or in the end, it's an ongoing thing for most people.

Dr. Gerry (19:57.602)

But we developed this inner harmony. Our inner system is healthier. Our inner family, if you will, is a happier functional family. And until I learned about parts work, I feel like I never quite got there often with clients because there's always something not addressed. And now I'm able to address so much more in this kind of work.

I love that. So much there. So much there. I love what you said about the kind of exiled parts of you being stuck in time. I remember hearing a little bit about kind of how the brain works and trauma and how when you go through a traumatic event, the logical side of your brain, at least the two part brain theory says that that logical side of your brain that's, know, calculation and language constricts and the emotional part like takes over. But that part of the brain, at least with this one theory that I'd heard of, it doesn't have a sense of time. So literally like baked into our

neurobiology, least the science that I had learned, there's like literally that part of you that's stuck as a 10 year old kid, as a 12 year old kid, and it might show up in an argument with your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your spouse. I'm curious kind of in that realm, especially with relationships, because that's a major pain point for our audience. How do these parts, especially the exiled parts, maybe typically show up in relationships and cause maybe problems? I don't know if that's the right term to use, but cause some conflict or cause some

lack of harmony within the relationship. If you like me come from a broken family, you've probably experienced a lot of difficult emotions and it's easy to deal with them in unhealthy ways. But one healthy habit that's helped me working out consistently and eating how my body was made to be fed. It keeps my body healthy and the endorphins help me feel happier and better navigate tough emotions. But I know it's not easy to start exercising or to be more consistent with it. You might be thinking, I don't know what I'm doing. I have no time.

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Joey (22:11.618)

go to dakotalanfitness.com. Dakota is actually giving away for free his PDF guide, the biggest fitness mistakes to avoid. Just click the link in the show notes.

Yeah, yeah, it's a whole topic and it's a great one. I'll mention a few things just come to mind that might be issues that come up. Here's the thing, part of this whole notion and this understanding is that we have a core self, I would say in most self, you say Paul's language, but we have an interior self. Even in the secular world of internal family systems, they identify a self as somehow different from parts, but it's a core of the

It's sort of the core spiritual center of the personality. I have come to see it as the best representation of the image of God within the soul. So we have this inmost self that is the best, most representation of who we are at a deep level as beloved child of God. All right, so I just want to preface that we have this self, okay? And that what happens is our parts are busy, are more like...

busy, if you will, like they're not there. have tasks and their roles and like I was describing. so, and they're managing life, if you will. And so what can happen is that a part that is burdened with something, right? Either maybe it's a belief, like I'm not good enough. So let's say if the manager part, that task manager that I was talking about earlier, let's say not only is he the task manager, like he's busy doing stuff because we need parts that do stuff, but he's burdened with this belief of I'm not good enough. Well, then

What's gonna happen to his role? Like he's gonna be more like having to prove himself, always having to do more, always having to do more, having to prove myself, blah, prove, prove, right? And the way we would see that is that that part is blended in or that part is like eclipsing, if you will, our core in most self, right? And so when we're in a relationship with somebody, what are we encountering in their personality? Well, we might be encountering a part that has a burden and it's...

Dr. Gerry (24:10.35)

Hovering up in a way sort of riding the bus if you will and we're not accessing our core spiritual center of who we are Maybe we are a little you know, it's not always a perfect thing Like it's it's a little bit like a cloudy day some Sun gets through sometimes but it's dominantly being being covered up So when we have a manager part that is that is coping or whatever or maybe it's a we call the other type of protectors some of them firefighters so we have manager pipes that are

proactively doing things and we have firefighters that are like busy putting out fires, right? They're Reacting and so one way to react is to isolate So we may have a part that just isolates away, right? So I know I do like I have had parts that are task managers and I've had parts that will void and Isolate and just go off into my own little whole hobbit hole, right? So if you talk about relationships, so whether it's in my case my wife or anybody are they encountering me the

busy task manager who doesn't believe he's good enough? Are they encountering primarily the me that is the avoiding all bad feelings and wants to just hide away? What version, if you will, of me do they meet? Now, another thing that could happen would be if my exiled part, my little abused, you know, all alone child who's been hurt, right, and wounded at exile. mean, sometimes that part is the part in charge at times.

shows up. And so that's, that would be a wounded victim, if you will. So what happens when somebody else has, let's say a, let's say I'm a 20 something year old single guy, and with my sort of background, and I meet some girl who's also around that age, she's got a part that is also kind of a manager task manager type, like go get her, but who believes she's not good enough.

that burden. So she believes she has to help everybody else in order to feel good about herself. That's her burden. That's the part that's showing up for her. She meets encounters and say we have some night we meet, you know, we're on a date and then we stay all night till two in the morning talking because I have let my exile be the one that's in front. So she's meeting my woundedness and she wants to take care of

Dr. Gerry (26:31.384)

She wants to be that mother, whatever it is for that wounded part of me. And of course my wounded part is like eating it up. Yeah, I love it too. So I'm being, in my mind, being very vulnerable. She's being, we bond on that. And it's not that that's all bad. I'm not saying that's all wrong or bad, but that's the basis for the bonding, but an actual healthier relationship, right? And this is ideal, super ideal. None of us are completely there, but an ideal thing is that

It's not my parts that my friend or my spouse or my girlfriend encounters. It's my in most self and that, and that she's also, so there's a process to like let her parts step back and be able to just be real, be honest and come to that front of that place of vulnerability that's genuine. And, and we come from that place. Sometimes we can talk about our parts. I can tell her about my wounded exile guy. can tell her about my other parts. Right.

and she can hear about that and empathize. And then she's doing the same thing to me. So I'm encountering her core in myself. So that's a spiritual connection. Now we're like, we're connected to each other on this deep spiritual level of really seeing the other person for who they are, for the beloved child that God made in them. That's profound and unbelievably, unfortunately rare actually, but it can happen.

Now I'm presenting them as extremes and I think what happens is we get glimpses of it sometimes, right? So people know what I'm talking about but maybe they haven't experienced the fullness of it. That's kind of the goal. Anyway, so how it shows up in relationship is complicated.

Yeah, no, to say the least. mean, this is so insightful and I, you know, I know that some people might be thinking, man, this is kind of a lot to track with her. It might be overwhelming, but I, think like when you, when you put it in such plain terms, it's really helpful. And we definitely like thinking of my experience. There's certainly people in my life that like bring out a certain part of me, right? They maybe bring out the best in me or the worst in me, depending on who, you know, who it might be. And so I think, you know, we kind of see this in action.

Joey (28:41.09)

in everyday life, even if we can't like quite put the words to it. And so yeah, you you use a lot of the language like part of me, you know, I've heard you say before, part of me wants to do this and part of me wants to do that. And so I think there's a simple understanding there and everything you mentioned with kind of the task managers versus the firefighters makes so much sense too. I'm curious, you mentioned there's a process to kind of access that in most self. I know we can't go deep into it, but would you tease that out a little bit for us of like, okay, yeah, like if you're, know,

in a relationship or not in a relationship and you want to be, or you're looking towards marriage, it's like, man, I really want to make sure my true self or my inmost self, whatever you want to call it, is relating to this person's inmost self. But I'm kind of worried that they're not, that it's not, or the part of me is not. And so yeah, if you could give us a little teaser there, I know, you know, the book, I'm sure goes deeper into this too.

Yeah, yeah, the book does actually like walk through that process to some extent, but I can give you a little glimpse of it. So first of all, we have to have the awareness because I think most of the time, like we're not aware, like we just operate. And so we're not thinking about ourselves in this way. so parts are blending in with the self or covering it up or whatever. And this just happens and we're not.

conscious of it. So the first step is to just even recognize, yeah, I have an interior world. I have an interior space that has some complexity. we may have to pause, right, and notice these different parts that are in me. And what's cool and interesting is there's different ways to access them, but one cool way is through the body itself.

which is very hylomorphic if you're Thomistic, but it's to like recognize that in our physical bodies, our parts do kind of sometimes manifest in some way, especially the parts that are disturbed, the parts that are having some struggle. So one way is like when we're stressed about something, we will feel it in our physical body. So you would notice like, for me, it's my shoulders usually. So like I will do this with my shoulders, I'll tense up. And so to recognize, okay.

Dr. Gerry (30:44.16)

If I pause for a moment and say, my shoulders are tense, just have that awareness that I'm doing that. And to be able to pause for a moment and say, okay, what part of me is connected to that tension? Right? Because oftentimes I know for me that that tension in my shoulders, at least, is probably that taskmaster on some level, worried that I won't be able to get everything done that I'm supposed to. That might be one example. And so I'm literally tensing, right?

to be activated to do something, right? And yet at the same time, if I can't do anything, it's paralyzed and it's sort of stuck. So I'm noticing my body connecting with that taskmaster and then, or man, I should give him a better name, but that doer, the doer part. immediately right there, I'm noticing a part. And so as soon as I connect with a part, then I have created a little distance internally between me and that part. There's a space there.

So I can notice it. It might, could even notice me if you will, or notice other parts, but there's a little internal distance. It's not like, he's not on top of me, he's just over here. And then as you kind of get to know that part and let's, you know, kind of pay attention to it. I will often ask this question, like, how do I feel toward this part? All right, now something's going to show up. If something shows up that says, yeah, he's a pain in the butt or he never, he's no fun. Okay.

There's another part. Okay. So I've got a part that has an issue with that part of me. So there's an inner conflict that I have within me between there's a part of me that wants to get everything done. And there's a part of me going, why can't you just relax? Why can't you chill out? We're going crazy over here. Okay. So within me, I have these two different, different parts that aren't in agreement. All right. If I can notice that part, okay, fine. Notice you go back to the other part. How do I feel toward that part? See if something else shows up. And so what happens is you're sort of teasing out these different

usually these parts have some agenda. At some point in this process, what you might feel toward a part is compassion or understanding, some level of patience, sense of calm, as even love, if you will, some sense of curiosity about it, not a judgment, not an agenda, not trying to make something stop or go or do anything. It's just these natural qualities, I think, related to faith, and love.

Dr. Gerry (33:08.546)

But related to, think the biggest one is compassion is the biggest like usual. There we are. Now we've connected with our Inmo self, right? Cause the Inmo self is just, it doesn't really have a big agenda other than maybe harmony, healing maybe, but it's not like trying to fix things. It is simply really an expression of within us of God is love is in a sense, right? Cause that's God is love and we're in his image. So our Inmo self.

expresses just this natural love. And it was discovered by Dick Schwartz even, who's totally secular. And he was working with women who had eating disorders. Dick Schwartz, sorry, he's the founder of Internal Family Systems. founded, he created this sort of that way of approaching it in the 1980s. And he was working with women with eating disorders and he figured out this process of getting them to connect with their parts. And once

They teased out all these different parts and to a person that he worked with, every woman that he worked with, suddenly this self, he just called it the self, emerged that was just naturally compassionate, naturally courageous in some ways and creative, but just had this natural beauty, if you will. And it didn't matter how terrible their trauma history was or how messed up their lives were. It was innate. So I really think he naturally stumbled upon

the image of God in each human being, in a natural level. It's there. So anyhow, so this is what this process is. What I've realized in time was, yes, it's psychological and there's a psychological approach, art's work, but it's incredibly spiritual. And I'm like, and I was thinking to myself, well, if I believe that the Holy Spirit works through every human and dwells every, you know, baptized, whatever Christian, then

Imagine what it would be like for the Inmost Self to fully express, be open to God's love and open to the Holy Spirit, open to the virtues of faith, hope and love to then manifest throughout the whole system of person. I was thinking, well, as Christians doing this, should be, the transformation should be even more, right? Because it's like, we're not, every need we have ultimately can be filled.

Dr. Gerry (35:29.676)

by our inmost self in communion with the Trinity. Communion with And so to me this was all mind blowing. And it was coming together and beautiful. so this is so much of the work that I do is this approach now.

So good. No, could see why it's so effective too. And yeah, wow. No, I'm blown away. Well, just maybe let me try to summarize the process that you mentioned just for everyone listening and to see if I understood it. So essentially the first step of kind of getting to that in most self is just being aware of maybe what parts may be coming out, if that's the right way of saying, or just like have their, they're active maybe. So there's something happening. That part is like stepping in and taking some sort of a roll on. So identifying it, acknowledging it, bringing awareness to it.

And then it sounds like engaging it in some sort of like simple dialogue, simple conversation of kind of understand, which is meant to aim towards understanding. And ultimately the goal would be like some sort of compassion. And that would allow us to kind of quell the, maybe the concerns or the fears or whatever's bothering that part so that we can act from our inmost self. Is that somewhat it or what did I miss?

No, that's great. I love that. would just say that compassion isn't so much the goal, it's the beginning. because then there's this process of unburdening the part, whatever burdens it's carrying, helping the part learn its true role in the system. And so then there's work to be done, but which is cool. And then there's interactions. It sounds funny, but between our different parts and having the whole system. So it's a little bit like an orchestra, right? The self is this conductor, right? This is

Dick Schwartz has used this analogy, but it's a good one. And so if the self is like the sort of like the conductor, then, you know, all the parts, you want to get them in tune and you want to get them all the instruments working, you know, playing together and they all have, but they all have an important, you know, the wind instruments and the brass instruments. Everybody has a role. it's, and so when it's all together, it's beautiful. And I have then run with that and began to see how our inner world from a Christian perspective.

Dr. Gerry (37:41.442)

is very much like an inner temple or inner cathedral, if you will, or whatnot, that in fact, like, you know, the, inmost self is like the priest or the, I suppose minister, but like, is the, is the celebrant and then all the, we have all different roles. There's readers and this and that, and people and people in the congregation, like our inner world ultimately is meant to be this worshiping community within us that all of our parts then become.

oriented toward God and praising God, then our system, where all of us, if you will, is giving, is loving back to God, if you will, worshiping back to God. So to me again, yeah, there's this strong spiritual sense. I really draw on to great extent what when Christ says that we were to love God with our heart and everything, but we're to love our neighbor as ourself. And so I think that's a fascinating thing. And when you think about it, because we, hate ourselves, then we're not loving

You know what mean? Not loving others very well. So what does it mean to connect with all our different parts and help them be unburdened and help them be harmonious and all this business? Well, we're actually, this is not all about narcissism or just self-focused kind of stuff. No, this is about loving ourselves properly. And when we do love ourselves properly and when we do, it's always a work in progress, but as we do develop this harmony, we are able to love others so much better.

We're able to turn to our girlfriend or boyfriend or spouse, whoever. We understand their parts better, so we give them a lot of grace. But they're seeing a different us, truer us, if will. And so that is powerful. They're able to love others better and ultimately, like I was saying before, love God fully.

Really powerful and experience like you said more peace more harmony, but you know more joy more happiness We would probably say too and that's really beautiful quickly before I move to the next question I know you recently went to Italy and I'm curious What what part of you or parts of you came out in Italy because I've noticed for me when I've gone over there my grandparents Came from Italy and moved to America and so just love Italy But it brings out a different part of me than in America. So I'm just curious if you notice that

Dr. Gerry (39:51.406)

So I'd never been to Italy before, believe it or not. And so it was my first time in Rome. So was in Rome, I was in Florence. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I don't know what to say. It's a little tricky. I think I had very different parts with reactions. Some of them surprised me. You know, I found the city, you know, pretty bustly and that, but I mean, lot of big American cities are too. It was very aggressive. you know, I have a, like just getting coffee or something. Like I, what was happening to me was realizing like, wow.

I am not like how just being in a different cultural environment affects you and how helpless you are when you don't really know all the rules and you don't speak the main language. So there was a part of me that was super like felt a little overwhelmed and helpless. Like I remember when trying to get coffee and people jumping in front of me and that ends in the morning. And I was just like, okay, I don't know where I'm supposed to go. And I don't know the process because they're doing it different than they would ever do it in a, you know, in a caribou cafe.

You know, so there is some of that and the other parts of me were like it was interesting going to all the different. I went through, think, five holy doors, which was super cool. But, you know, go in a place like St. Peter's. was so excited to go to St. Peter's and it was gorgeous. But, you know, I know I was going through with people going through it. I didn't go there for mass or anything, but I did feel a little bit like I was in a museum. And so and I love museums, so don't get me wrong. But I felt like something about that.

I don't know, just felt like it was too much. I have a Benedictine spirit, also a Franciscan spirit, that loves the simplicity. So I was all excited and then I felt a little overwhelmed also just by, I I loved it, so don't get me wrong, but I felt a little bit like, but where do I go to meet God? I would go, there was a few other places that actually surprised me. Like even St. Paul's Basilica, it was still grand and everything.

But for some reason, I just felt more at home there. It felt more simple. It felt more something. And so I had different parts to reacting a little bit to the spirituality. so don't know if that's what you.

Joey (41:56.398)

Yeah, no, no, it's helpful. No, and I I was just curious that aspect of like going into a different culture That's why I was asking this question and 10 of your parts kind of being at play because I think those situations when we're not in our normal environment To me at least kind of bring out parts of you that maybe aren't brought out very often

And I remember that, yeah, on my first trip, you know, over there and going to different cultures too. Yeah. You're especially ones where you don't speak the language. You're certainly at like a, in a vulnerable position. Like you said, I remember feeling exactly the same way. And, and then, yeah, and then part of you, maybe I remember I would get like even very like frustrated with myself. like, wait, like, you know, even like driving over there, there's been times when I've driven in Italy and at first it was like, actually a really stressful experience for me.

Because I'm like, I don't know how to pay the tolls. don't know like, you know how to do this and do that and like everything I do in America and am I doing it right? Am I gonna screw it up? So anyway, it's just an interesting analogy if you will of kind of how this all works. So thank you for answering that. Feel free to comment on any of that but I wanted to transition a little bit to movies because I think it's another great way of understanding parts work. And so I'm curious, yeah, if there's any movies top of mind for you that kind of exhibit that these principles exhibit this framework.

A couple that come to mind to me that I wasn't sure if they fit here would be like Inside Out, Inside Out 2, Encanto. I've heard that there's some of this going on there, but you tell me, like, what movies would you say, like, exhibit this well?

I would say, I I enjoyed all three of those movies. I thought in Inside Out did a lot to help people understand parts. It's not like a perfect representation by any means, but to see the inner working of the main character Riley and her inner working like with all the different, they were represented by emotions, but these emotions seem to have their own emotions too. So they were like little parts.

Dr. Gerry (43:49.088)

And it made a lot of sense that people watch that film and kids would, of course, watch that film and it resonates. Even though parts can sometimes seem strange sometimes when you're trying to explain it, the reality is that it really does resonate with most people and Inside Out kind of proved that. So I think it does a great job of showing how there's complexity within. It does a great job of showing some inner conflicts that goes on within and so on. I would say one thing I point out, what I was unhappy about Inside Out.

was that I felt like there was no in most self. There was no that core spiritual center that wasn't represented. Like to some extent, the Joy character did that, but not really fully. So I felt like there was a missing piece, but what do you want? It's a Disney movie. It's not going to be, I can't expect it to fit all of my designs, but nevertheless, I felt like that was a missing piece that actually got addressed in Inside Out 2. They actually did, you know, imperfectly, but interestingly, showed

there's that like constellation thing that changed color and it went out at one point or it got thrown away or got replaced by and I thought, wow, that really does kind of show the spiritual center in some interesting ways. If on some level the image of God within like that core center, it got overwhelmed, it got replaced at one point, but it, you know, when it would go filter down or whatever. So I thought Inside Out 2 did a great job of showing the more the spiritual dimension.

And then, of course, the way they showed anxiety, the anxiety character, and when he was out of control and or she, I don't know if it was a he or she. And it was like going, you know, it was the losing control and was trying to do everything. And you could see. And I thought, wow, that did a great job of showing fight or flight. Like what an amazing thing. So I feel like those two movies like really did a lot to like normalize parts. It also did a lot. It had a pretty good understanding of trauma. And of course, it.

it has a very strong understanding of how human emotions work.

Joey (45:47.0)

Brilliant, yeah, no, I love it, all those things. And yeah, one of the things that hit me in the second inside out was how, yeah, just, all of our parts, right? It's not like we can cut one part of us off and throw it away and say, I'm kind of ashamed of that part, I don't want anything to do with it. But there needs to be this, like you said before, this harmony, this integration of even maybe the parts that we aren't crazy about. And so I thought that was neat too, how the, not to spoil it for everyone, but how the end result was kind of this, you know, this.

harmony, I can't think of a better word, between the different parts of Riley. Inconto, I'm curious if you have thoughts on Inconto. It's such an interesting movie. I have a three-year-old, almost four-year-old, and so we watch a lot of these movies. But yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that one.

Yes, I do. I have seen it not recently recently. So I may not remember every name or every little aspect. I think that was brilliant. I actually saw it. My daughter, who's an adult like my kids are all adults. But it was earlier on, like a number of years ago, my my daughter wanted to watch it and we watched it. And I half paid attention. I'll be perfectly honest. And I initially like maybe it's culture. Like I didn't totally I'm not terribly familiar with that culture. I wasn't clear on.

At first, like, what is it trying to say? Maybe I was just tired. So I got some of it. But then a few years later, like I had somebody say, no, Jerry, you have to like pay attention. Need to like notice this movie better. So I said, okay, fine. And I was doing these film reviews. so, and everybody said I have to look at it. So I watched in Kanto again this time, like with my notepad. Well, and then of course the film was brilliant.

Hehehehe

Dr. Gerry (47:25.806)

Absolutely brilliant. What I would end up saying is a little bit there, which is interesting as I was reflecting on, how does it all work is that the main character. first I didn't get it right away, but I actually think she represents the Inmo self and that's why she doesn't have a gift. because the Inmo self isn't like the gifts or roles or functions that all these different relatives have and she doesn't have one.

Mirabelle.

Dr. Gerry (47:56.062)

She's the heart of that family. And at the end, when she comes in to open the door, she's the one that has to unlock the door, the house in a way. Like you could argue the house is, but the house is sort of, but it's more impersonal in a way than I think our inner self actually is. So anyway, I don't know if that's true or just, don't know if I could argue it in court a lot, but that's my impression. But the house is also interesting as the cell system.

in some way too, or housing the self system. So I love that aspect. Yeah. And how the different characters like, yeah, yeah. The character, I guess would be her uncle, I think anyway, the character that was kicked away that has a castle. Yeah. Bruno. So he, he was a perfect example of an exile and who goes, he's nobody wants to go near him. And well, she goes in and risks it all to her death, but to find him, this is what the inmost self does.

And this is to find that exile and bring that exile home. It's what Christ does as a good shepherd. He finds that sheep and he brings that sheep home. It was so, to me, that was so beautiful. That showed again, this, you know, I don't know, it fit very well with parts work.

If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Yeah, no, it's beautiful. That's why I wanted to talk to you about some of these movies I am one question about in content that we can move on that the ant that has like the like words her emotions on her sleeve has like all the weather she controls like the weather or whatever What's your insight there? What's going on there? She basically like that the way they exhibit her in the movie is that she really has not much control over like how she

Joey (49:57.9)

reacts to her emotions. Like if she gets angry or upset, then there's like a tornado. If she is sad, then there's a rainstorm. She kind of wears her emotions on her sleeve. She has very little, what we might call emotional mastery. And so I'm curious, I've heard some people speculate kind of why that might be, but obviously it's all just speculation. So it's okay if it's a little bit too distant, but I'm curious.

I mean, it just sounds to me like this is a part that is overwhelmed by emotion. So when we were talking about that a little earlier, right? Like when a part is overwhelmed by emotion then and there in the driver's seat, then you've got a person who is always emotionally volatile and unpredictable, right? And so in a way that might be more what she was doing. And I don't remember what plays out for her toward the end if they develop that. I don't.

Yeah, no, no, think basically the way she manages her emotions is like, think her husband is like the one who kind of helps calm her. And yeah, I don't think there's, there's not a ton of resolution to that particular character in the movie. Of course, like the resolution for the family, of course, is that they kind of, instead of trying to be this like perfect family, they kind of acknowledge and accept like they're okay. We're, there's parts of us that are like broken and we're not like this perfect family that we want maybe people to perceive us.

I was wondering maybe that character, I don't know, in some way learns to use that power more helpfully than just be reactive. Because that actually sounds a little bit like a firefighter. But her role is she's not meant to be in the system, to always be that. But maybe that power is channeled in a more positive way, would be what I would be looking for.

Thank you, I appreciate all that. Any other movies that you would bring up that kind of exhibit, Partsworks, and then we'll talk a little bit about some other.

Dr. Gerry (51:48.472)

Yeah, I would argue that almost any movie does. It can't help it. I'm, I'll say this, writing my reviews, I haven't yet done Lord of the Rings and I haven't yet done any of the Marvel, like, Avengers movies. You know, because I'm doing a lot of, I'm writing these little reviews and they're, and I'm often picking movies that have been around for a while and that's fine. I want to get to doing more recent stuff once I get going. But, and I look at them from a Christian perspective and from a parts perspective. So almost any movie.

If it's any good at all, has some aspect because it's just so fundamental to who we are as a person. So I will just say this, like if you take a movie like the Lord of the Rings, or it's a book, right? Of course, it's one of my favorites. But, and you look at like the first book was the Fellowship of the Ring, right? And so there's, you've got all these different characters that are brought together. They're all different. So you've got, you know, you've got Aragorn and Boromir as the humans, and then you've got the hobbits and you've got Legolas, the elf, and you've got...

Gimli the dwarf, and you've got Gandalf the wizard, and you have all these different parts, right, if you will, coming together towards some kind of goal. Now they get all separated at the end of it, at the of the first part, but they're kind of representing all these different dimensions of humanity. I'd argue a lot of times they're, many of them are at different points, a kind of Christ figure, but in a way though, like that could be a part that is taking on a Christ-like role, which is...

perfectly fine. You know what mean? So there's a there's a multiplicity that's inherent. And I think when we watch a film like The Lord of the Rings and we see these different characters and how they are different and yet how they do interact, one unconscious way in which we are moved and brought into is that our parts relate to that. At a deep level, we relate to that. So whatever movie you want to pick, like pick Star Wars.

Let's just say the original first Star Wars New Hope movie. Now you've got your Luke Skywalker, you've got your Han Solo, you've got your droids, you've got the Princess Leia. They all have different roles and they all worked in the movies. Usually they reach a pitch as this team or whatnot works together more harmoniously or whatever, bonds and to fulfill whatever.

Dr. Gerry (54:03.362)

You know, and so it's the same if you were to look at, like, say, the Avengers and the Marvel movies, like you were to say, OK, why does this even work for us on a deeper level? Why do we get excited about these teams is because, they're they're all different, whether it's Iron Man with his issues and, you know, how many of us have an Iron Man within us, like a guy who is like invulnerable to everything, right? And whatever. But yet he struggles to handle things sometimes. But how many of us also have a Captain America? Like, we've got a Captain. We've got to do good or.

part of us, right? And we've got a Hulk within us who rages. We've got, you know, so you could go through it, like all these different characters kind of represent parts of us. And that's why these movies at a very innate level, like speak to us.

So good, gosh, I'm excited to read more of those. I read a little bit of one of them, but I'm really excited. We'll make sure to link to that column on your website so people can follow and read through that. Just quickly here, is it fair to say that maybe people's favorite movies are movies that they just like, the parts of them just resonate the most with the main character?

I think so. I think you have to identify. I think that, you you think about, you know, some really popular movies like Spider-Man, regardless of which Spider-Man you like, the Tom Holland or the Andrew Garfield or the, know, the reason you resonate on some level often is because there is a part of us, right, that feels like no one like that. We don't matter that we're somewhat orphaned, that life is hard. You know, Peter Parker and Spider-Man like

You know, I guess he is orphan. lives with his aunt. He has girl problems. He has, you know, job problems. He problems at school. He's being bullied. Like all these different things are happening to him. And I think that we relate, there's a part of us that really relates to that kind of character. And yet he's a superhero. He discovers powers that he didn't, you know, that he gets. He discovers abilities. And yet he, in his case, he also like...

Dr. Gerry (56:01.038)

has to figure out how he wants to exercise that for good, ultimately. But isn't that how we all feel? Don't most of us feel like an awkward, nerdy whatever at times? And growing up in the world's against us, and yet at our brightest moments, we discover truly who we are, and that's greater than we thought. And I think so many of the characters that we relate to, we have those inner connections with.

My favorite movie is actually Batman Begins and I kind of noticed I didn't even realize it until later after you seeing it as like a kid and realizing like my goodness there's like similarities obviously I'm not a billionaire but there's similarities with you know kind of Bruce losing his parents how I felt I kind of lost my parents and things like you said so so good there's so much more we could talk about we're close to the end of our time I do want to ask a couple more questions if that's okay I want to briefly touch on Mother Wounds and

Kind of similarly with movies, I've noticed in all the movies my daughter and I are watching like Cinderella or, know, Rapunzel's movie Tangled, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White. Like there's always like this kind of villainous female. And I'm curious, just talking with you about mother wounds. I remember we had a conversation like a year ago about this really briefly and it stuck with me and I was like, I need to talk to them more about that. So I'm curious, like for everyone listening, like what are mother wounds and how do they affect people? And if you want to use any examples from movies, feel free.

Well, you know, so a mother wound, in a sense like a father wound is where something happens usually right in childhood where our natural needs, our needs for maternal care and maternal nurturing get disrupted in some way. Right. And there are all kinds of possibilities there. Sometimes it's obviously the parents, your mother in this case, like their own woundedness or their own blocks or

but not their own trauma or whatnot, kids resurfaces in some way and they act out something negative, Or it's, sometimes it can even be something out of that person's control, right? Like, you your mother, you know, has a miscarriage or something and goes into a depression or dies even, right? And it's not in her, the mother wouldn't have wanted that, right? But so a child experienced that as a wound, right? As a loss. But then a lot of times the mother wound is where the mother...

Dr. Gerry (58:16.742)

actively in some ways, unaffirms, unnurtures, like fails in some way, right? In that more active way out of whatever brokenness. so, you know, recognizing a little bit, I'm going to make this so simple. It's way more complex, but I'm going to make this so simple. What we need from our fathers is affirmation. We need a lot more, but I'm going to, you know, nutshell it a little bit is affirmation. What we need from our mothers is nurturing. And so

Not the fathers don't nurture and not that mothers don't firm. There's something essential in that. And there's sort of a core thing. There's nothing like being nurtured by your mom. A hundred percent. Dads can't quite do it the same or some other caregiver isn't quite the same. And so, I mean, we can have a substitute mom, like an adopted mom or something and it can be just perfect, but there's nothing like that. And so when a mother is angry or cold or whatnot, it's really difficult.

The movie that stands out for me that maybe it's so old and nobody has seen it, but it's ordinary people. It came out. Yeah, it's powerful. Don't watch it. if, you know, it's like, it's literally like Schindler's List. Like don't watch it if, you know, you're in a bad, like, like a literary kind of thing. But it's a movie, one best picture, actually, I think in like 1980 or 81. And it stars Donald Sutherland, who recently passed away and Mary Tyler Moore. And they're the parents.

It was a shocking because Mary Tyler Moore had a show in the 1970s where she was, you everybody was in love with her. I was a kid. I was in love with her. Like she's so nice, such a lovable character. And before that, she was the wife on the Dick Van Dyke show and everybody was in love with her there. But in ordinary people, she's as cold as ice and she plays it perfectly. And in this case, you've got a, the dad is like some lawyer, some job that's makes a lot of money and the wife's a stay at home mom and they're in some kind of like fancy.

I don't know, upscale Connecticut or somewhere type, you know, like upper middle class kind of thing. And they have two sons, an older son and a younger son. the two sons go out on a boating trip and they're older teenagers. And one of them drowns, the older one. And then the younger one survives. And the older one was the football star. The one who died was this sort of like ideal kind of like perfect son, so to speak. And the younger one was the more awkward, quiet, shy one.

Dr. Gerry (01:00:38.582)

And the mother just, her own grief was such that she completely hated, like wouldn't outwardly say it, but she was completely hateful to the younger son. Wow. Because she couldn't handle her own grief and losing the one son and on some level blamed him also in some way, not that he caused the accident, but she just held onto it. She couldn't resolve her own issues to love her son.

the way he needed, he desperately needed his, and then the father was loving, the father was super kind and unbelievably great. But because of this mother wound, you know, this kid like was really in part because of not, he was, the kid was suffering because he was grieving the loss of his brother and the accident. So, but this movie, I won't say more, but I mean, it, shows depression, like the boy's depression shows grief.

There's even a counselor involved and the process there. It's a, it's a powerful, powerful movie. And to me, took me by surprise to see Mary Tyler Moore play this unfeeling mother. Um, and the crazy thing is she, the actress Mary Tyler Moore had lost her son to suicide, I think a year before. So anyway, analyze that. I'll be curious. But so that's, that's the movie. But, just to say something, I don't know if you want me to do.

want to comment on.

I'm just taking it all and that's just fascinating and it's so helpful to see like especially in like a story because I think a lot of people can relate to that more than the kind of theory of it so thank you for doing that. Yeah I'm just more curious now about just yeah it's one of the last questions like how that typically affects people and if you have any tips for kind of maybe beginning that process like obviously therapy with someone like you would be a great next step but I'm curious how it affects people and what they can do about it.

Dr. Gerry (01:02:23.918)

I think that what happens is we unconsciously go to seek out what we don't have. And so again, I look at it as part, but we have a part and often like when we're young, we had say a mother wound, some kind. And when we're young, we're not well equipped to cope. Like as an adult now, we could handle certain things better, right? But when we're younger, we don't know, we don't have many ways. So we look for ways to cope. So for example, like,

One way, if a boy experiences a pretty terrible mother wound, then there are just all kinds of different ways that somebody could respond to that. But one way would be to be always looking for that mother nurturing in other women. So sometimes they become like over-focused on, you know, like womanizing to win over women in some psychological way, like they're having to compensate.

But also it can turn into like a type of hatred of women because they're holding so much anger toward their mother that then it turns into a hatred toward all women. And it's not always on the surface, right? It's not always the obvious person, but it can show up, right? All this anger there. And again, it's like a part of that person is like angry at women now. So it can show up in men who are abusive toward women, who treat women, who...

you know, because they have all this underlying anger, might not even be connecting the dots, right? For women, it could also be like not having that female connection means they might disconnect from their own feminine nature because their mother was not safe or was threatening or whatever, abandoned or something. And so they therefore internalize that as a rejection of themselves and their own.

So this could mean different things, right? For a woman to either want to be a man or to seek out relationships with women, you know, instead of the opposite sex, not saying that's the reason this happens for everybody, but it's a possible dynamic. And so, you know, again, you know, a hatred of, again, of self in that case, for what, like a man might hate women on some unconscious level and a woman might hate herself therefore on someone.

Dr. Gerry (01:04:39.916)

level because she's been rejected or hurt by her mother.

So good. There's so much there and we'll have to cut it and maybe do a part two on all of this. But thank you for going into that. And I think if nothing else, it brings an awareness. And so if someone is interested in learning more from you, because you're brilliant, thank you so much for doing this. What do you offer? I know you have the book and there's other offerings like you do therapy as well. So please tell us about all that and how people could get it.

So yeah, the book would be great. Read that. We'll explain parts in much more detail and all from a Christian perspective. Soulsandhearts.com, or Souls and Hearts is an apostolate. It's a project that Dr. Peter Malinowski and I do. there there's online communities. This whole ministry is about helping people learn about their inner parts and grow and heal. And it's not therapy.

But it's, but it's often done in community and it's, there's a lot of education. There's a lot of things to learn there. There's so much. So we have online communities, but on there, on that site are my columns. I have a, the parting thoughts column is my movie film and media review. Kingdom within is it's another column that I do that is all about like incorporating deep Christian philosophy and theology and connecting it to a part psychology. so again, looking at the history, like what different.

saints or different early church writers and so on have said and showing how that supports in a way this whole version, this understanding of the human person. So there's that and there's other resources and so there's souls and hearts. then transfigurationcounseling.co is my practice site. I am not so much seeing clients, new clients, but I have a whole team of therapists who most...

Dr. Gerry (01:06:25.046)

All of them are using parts work, but they all have different talents and skills and they're all faith oriented therapists. So, and we're in different states, multiple states, not all the states, but we're in quite a few. So.

Thank you for all that and know what you're doing is revolutionary. And if someone's interested, especially on the therapy side, cause we've gotten a lot of interest people asking like, where do I go for therapy? Do most of your therapists offer like a free consult if they wanted to do that?

They don't usually offer a free like whole consultation. mean, they might do a 15 minute phone call to talk about, see if it's a good fit. kind thing. And if you call our main number, we have a therapist who takes in all those calls. He does a 15 minute, you know, and his job is to figure out who the best person is for that person and to also just understand. And he's a therapist. So he, he's under confidentiality and he, you know, he's wonderful. His name is Kevin.

No, that sounds like an amazing next step for anyone who's been wanting to do therapy, but wasn't sure where to go. I'd recommend it as well. So thank you for coming on the show. It's been great to have you. I just want to give you the final word. What final encouragement or advice would you leave everyone with? Especially, you know, the young people are saying right now come from broken family.

Well, whatever hurt and pain that you've experienced, would just say to bring that and notice that that can be united with Christ's suffering. So you're not alone in your pain and suffering. Yeah, there are lots of other people that also have experienced pain and suffering, course, but in Christ, he unites with you in your suffering and he can transform. And so there can become meaning. Whatever pain and suffering you've

Dr. Gerry (01:08:05.358)

experienced is not, is it was not necessarily meant to be or anything, but it can be transformed into something meaningful. And so to allow that process to happen takes a lot of courage, but I would just encourage people to do that and to recognize that your prayer life can be a lot deeper than, you know, saying prayers like out loud or just a prayer life can be about looking inside. And as we do that, recognizing how beautiful you are.

the level of your soul and how as you look inward, as you connect in with God, it raises you up. So there's an interior exploration that leads to an ascent. So I will just leave you with that.

Joey (01:08:53.069)

I learned so much in the interview yet. There's so much more I wish we could have talked about, we could have covered. And so I have a request. If you want Dr. Jerry to come back, submit a question for him. I'll tell you how to do that in a second. But if we get enough questions, we'll get him back on the show to talk more about mother wounds and to answer your question. So you can submit a question by clicking the link in the show notes or go into restored ministry.com slash ask again, restored ministry.com slash ask, or just click the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode of this podcast. helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcast as well. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start right where you are and change the ending.

Should I Just Get Over It?

2 minute read.

This story was written by Anonymous at 18 years old. Her parents separated at 15. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

I guess family life as I knew it kinda fell apart. My dad found other interests and entertainment outside of the family (late nights out, other women, fancy dinners, etc.) and kept it a secret until it wasn't anymore. I don't think I knew what to make of it 100%.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

I really didn't know what to make of it...I still kinda don't some days. I think it’s boggled my mind. I haven't been bitter or angry (like holding a grudge, seeking vengeance, wishing ill), at least at my dad. But I’m more frustrated with myself. Discouraged that I don't "fit the norm" of other traditional, large, Catholic conservative families. I had always thought I was secure in that, but it was merely a facade my dad wore.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

My dad's actions have had positive and negative impacts on me. I have become a much more compassionate and less judgemental person. I have learned lessons that I don't think I could have without going through this. However, I have some struggles that seem directly related to this: a bad relationship with food/emotional eating, self-anger, and body image obsession. Sometimes I tell myself, "Who doesn't go through these things, especially at 18?! I should just get over it all already." It is a lonely place to be sometimes.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

It is understandable to be confused. You might feel relief, then guilt, then nostolgia for what was, even if that wasn't healthy. I know I have. It may seem impossible, but through pursuing a relationship with God, there is hope for you to get better — better than before, even. Don't stop dreaming for yourself and work to achieve it. You are worth it.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

Longing For Happy Family Memories

5 minute read.

This story was written by Elizabeth Dorwart at 42 years old. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

My mom hung in there until the end — she’s a saint. But emotionally they were divorced. My dad struggled with depression and couldn’t keep a job starting when I was in 8th grade. He was from a very broken home — his mom abandoned them and his dad was an alcoholic. When I was 18 he had a suicide near-attempt, but didn’t do it at the last minute. I was told to get a job at age 15 because I had to go to college, but there was no money for college. My sister got a sports scholarship. I very much decided to become a physician because I knew I wanted to help people, but I really wanted to make a good living because I was scared that my future husband would commit suicide like my dad almost did. I wanted to be able to provide for my whole family. Luckily at age 26, I met and married a wonderful guy before my parents got worse. I know I would have been too afraid to get married.

My parents always argued about money and my dad continued to drink and struggle with finances through my 20s and 30s. He would open secret credit cards and try to start businesses, only to have them fail. He got involved in multi-level marketing schemes and didn’t pay taxes for 7 years. That led to a 75k lien against my parent’s house and we had to help my mom untangle that mess. I was blessed to find Dave Ramsey and I followed everything he said, except taking out loans for med school of course —I had to do that. But I put off having kids because med school was hard and I was always bailing out my parents financially. I hoped I could stabilize them and then start my family, but nothing worked to rein in my dad’s behavior. He kept getting fired from simpler and simpler jobs and we wondered if he had some cognitive problems. I was afraid to get him diagnosed, worried he would become mentally unstable or hurt himself. But finally in 2018, after he crashed two cars in a week and couldn’t explain what happened, we got a full medical evaluation and found out he has cognitive impairment — likely related to playing football. He stopped working and stopped driving. Things were finally stable; my mom was working extra jobs and we helped them fix some things around their house so they could rent out a room to save for retirement. But in 2021 my mom was diagnosed with cancer and passed away in 2022. My husband and I became caregivers. It’s been such a long road of heartache and I’ve longed for happy family memories. We had a few along the way, but there’s been a lot of trauma and drama.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

So sad, so torn, wanting to help my parents but not knowing how to. So sad for my mom and my dad. Angry at my dad before we realized it was probably a medical issue. Sadly, I’m fairly cynical about family life and I wish I wasn’t.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

I’ve been terrified to have kids. I struggle when I make a mistake. I have a hard time relaxing and I work a lot. I have a lot of issues with money and I struggle to see God as the provider. I have a lot of regret about not having kids, but I’m proud we finally stabilized my parents. It took so much from me, but I’m much closer to my God because of all the trauma.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Know that it isn’t your fault and this isn’t how God designed things to be. Families can be restored. But having trauma is a human response and God will see you through it. Lean on Him and know He loves you and your whole family so much.

---

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Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#144: The Secret to Not Repeating Your Family’s Dysfunction | Dr. Andrew Abela

So many of us from divorced or broken families fear repeating our parents' mistakes. 

If you want to avoid that, one of the keys is building virtue. 

But what is virtue? How do you build it? And what virtues might you acquire?

My guest today wrote Superhabits, an amazing new book on virtue. He answers those questions, plus:

• How to override the unconscious bad habits we inherited in our families

• One habit that could save your marriage before it starts and what virtues to look for in a potential spouse

• Why virtue, not just therapy, is the key to healing family wounds

If you’re struggling with bad habits or you want to build good habits, this episode is for you.

View Restored's Resources

Buy Book Super Habits by Dr. Andrew Abela

Grow Virtue app 

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Dr. Andrew: [00:00:00] We're usually talking about diet habits, sleep habits, exercise habits, you know, eating, sleeping, moving, the kinds of things we have in common with the animals. But the virtues are the habits of our mind and our soul, you know, so making your bed or brushing your teeth or wearing a seatbelt. These are all habits.

They're good habits, but they're not virtues. Why? Here's the difference. Virtues we know from research make you happier.

Joey: What virtues have been the most helpful for you in particular, maybe the couples you've seen around you when it comes to building a beautiful marriage, especially for the people listening who didn't see that growing up?

Dr. Andrew: Your eating habits are not going to save your marriage or break your marriage, but your habit of honesty will.

Joey: If someone maybe is feeling overwhelmed, this is maybe new to them. Where should they start? What encouragement would you give to them?

Dr. Andrew: It's kind of the code for having a successful life. But most people seem to have lost that code.

Joey: Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this [00:01:00] show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Dr. Andrew Abella. He's the founding dean of the Bush School of Business and ordinary professor of marketing at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.

C. He's actually a faculty affiliate at the Harvard University Human Flourishing Program and a contributor at Forbes. com. Dr. Abella also provides consulting and training in internal communications to Fortune 100. Corporations prior to his academic career, he spent several years in the business world as brand manager at Procter and Gamble as management consultant with McKinsey and company and managing director of the marketing leadership council of the corporate executive board.

He and his wife Kathleen have six children, three of whom so far have graduated from Catholic you. So many of us today come from divorced and broken families, and we fear repeating our parents mistakes. We don't want to repeat that in our own lives. And so if you want to avoid that, one of the keys is [00:02:00] building virtue.

But what is virtue? How do you build it? And what virtues might you want to acquire? Dr. Abella actually wrote a book on virtues, on habits, called Super Habits. And so he answers all those questions and more in this interview. We talk about what virtues to look for in a potential spouse, how long it might take to develop a habit.

And he shares the four stages of a habit, which is super helpful to know. And then finally, he talks about why virtue, not just therapy is the key to healing family wounds. And so if you come from a broken family and you're struggling with bad habits, or you just want to build good habits in your life, this episode is for you.

And with that, here's our conversation. Dr. Bella, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Andrew: Great to be with

Joey: you. I've really been looking forward to this since I heard you speak last year. And I think this book is so timely for so many reasons, but especially for this audience. So, as you know, everyone listening here comes from a broken family, a divorced family, and I think one of the chief fears is that we might end up repeating that [00:03:00] cycle of dysfunction, repeating that cycle of divorce in our own lives.

And the studies and the stories that we see around us so often support that. And so one of the things that we believe here at Resort is that if you want to break that cycle, you need to heal the brokenness, heal the emotional wounds, heal the trauma, but also build virtue. So you can go on and build those healthy relationships, a strong marriage and you know, a good functional family.

And so I'm really excited to talk with you about this book and how it might help our audience starting out. I'm curious, why did you write this book and what's your hope for everyone who reads it?

Dr. Andrew: So I had been reading about and studying virtue for many years. And when we started the business school that I have the privilege to run, the Bush School of Business, we talked about wanting to make sure we were helping form our students in virtue.

But the more I learned about it, the more I realized how so many people, if they know anything at all about virtue, they, how would I say, they don't understand it. Even people who have been reading about it, even familiar with the word and so on, they think of virtue as just. Goodness, you know, a [00:04:00] virtuous person, which kind of sounds like a goody two shoes, you know, without having a grasp of the idea that a virtue is a habit of excellence at the heart of a sort of successful flourishing life.

And a habit that anyone can acquire, not something you're born with. So it's a really good news story. It's kind of the code for having a successful life, but most people seem to have lost that code, you know? And so I wanted to find a way to bring it back into the conversation.

Joey: I love that. And one of the things I love about the book is how practical and tactical you made it, I think, and the other books and content I've consumed on virtue.

I think sometimes we get too theoretical. You know, we get kind of stuck in the clouds. Um, that was intentional. Obviously. Can you say more about like, why did you make this so practical and tactical, especially as an academic?

Dr. Andrew: Yeah. And I had to relearn how to write, you know, to not write in an academic style.

And part of the problem, I think that the real good news about virtue hasn't been so available is people who [00:05:00] write about it tend to be academics and they write in an academic style. And it's almost like you need a degree in medieval philosophy in order to understand the terminology because they use words like passions and essence and things that we recognize those words, but we don't understand the meanings that they originally had, you know?

And so basically the book is in part a work of translation, kind of re translating into contemporary English what was translated a couple of hundred years ago and never updated, you know? So, for example, we all say patience is a virtue. If you ask people, that's one of the first ones they would come up with.

Patience is a Latin transliteration of the Latin word, sorry, an English transliteration of the Latin word, paciencia. But it's not, the meaning of paciencia is not what we think of as patience. Which is like, don't be impatient, you know. What paciencia means is, Endurance through long sorrow, what we now call resilience, you know, now resilience is a virtue.

That's something that can be [00:06:00] cultivated, is useful, is important. Patience as in like not being impatient. It's like, yeah, whatever, but that's not. Fun, not nearly as important as, as resilience. And so there were a lot of these little tweaks where the word we're using is not quite meaning, or doesn't at all mean what, what it should mean, what it used to mean.

And so I had to kind of retranslate to show why this stuff is so important.

Joey: I love that. I remember Father Mike Schmitz, the, you know, famous for everyone listening, he's a really popular priest who has a podcast and puts out videos and he says, uh, about love in particular. He says, we've reduced love to romance and romance to sex.

So in a similar vein, we've kind of taken a word that can mean so many different things. And we made it mean one particular thing. So I think you're certainly onto something there. And speaking of the practicality component, I think part of the reason Atomic Habits, which, you know, a lot of our listeners are familiar with, was so popular was because James Clear made it so accessible, made it so practical.

So I'm really excited for this book. Speaking of that book, I'm sure people listening [00:07:00] are maybe wondering, how is your book different than Atomic Habits?

Dr. Andrew: So my book builds directly on Atomic Habits. And so, in fact, I chose the name, the title Super Habits almost to kind of to point to that. So Atomic Habits, he does a really good job of showing you how to develop habits.

But leaves it up to you to figure out which habits. Super habits tells you which habits are going to have the biggest impact. Because when we're left to ourselves, when we talk about habits, we're usually talking about habits of, you know, diet habits, sleep habits, exercise habits. You know, eating, sleeping, moving.

The kinds of things we have in common with the animals. But the virtues are the habits of our mind and our soul, you know. And so, things like resilience, or courage, or diligence, or, uh, you name it, we can go through a whole bunch, right, honesty, and so on. These are all the habits of the things that make us distinctively human, rather than just like the animals.

Now, of course, [00:08:00] eating, sleeping, moving, these are all important things in our lives. They're foundational to our lives. If we don't eat, we die, you know. But they're not the highest things. They're not the highest. They're not the things that make us truly human. Your eating habits are not going to save your marriage or break your marriage, right?

But your habit of honesty will one way or another. So what I'm trying to do with the book is say, okay Habits are good, great to develop habits Take some thought to which are the most important habits because working on a single one of the super habits right now could literally change Your life, you know

Joey: Wow.

And is there a systematic way to identify which habit should come first for a particular person?

Dr. Andrew: Yes, there's two ways. The simple and more, well, okay, three, three ways, simple and more thorough ways. As you read through the book, I tried to put them in the order, kind of a foundational order. So the first one you hit and you go, gosh, this one's a real struggle for me.

That's probably a good place to start. A second way, more [00:09:00] focused, is to ask yourself, What's my biggest struggle right now? Is it with my emotions? Is it with making decisions? Is it with relationships? And the book has, in the back of it, you've seen it, a big fold out poster, which lays out the whole framework of the virtues.

And using that, you can figure out, based on what you're struggling with, What's the one virtue that would make a really big difference right now? What's the one super habit where if you cultivated it would really make the thing that you struggle with so much easier. And I'll come back to that in a moment.

The third thing, probably the easiest, is we just launched a few weeks ago a new version of the app that comes with the book. And the new version is called Grow Virtue. The app's called Grow Virtue. It's available in the App Store for iPhone. Not yet for Android, hopefully soon, but there's also at the back of the book, there's a QR code.

And so the basic version of the app is free [00:10:00] and there's a diagnostic where you go through and it rates you on all of the virtues, some 40 some of them. And it tells you which ones you're really strong in and which ones you're not so strong in. When people do strengths tests, the conclusion from that is, okay, now you know your strengths, now play to your strengths.

Well, there is benefit once you know which virtues you're strongest in to making sure you're using them as much as possible, certainly. But the real benefit comes from finding the virtue or the super habits that is weakest. Because that is going to be the weakest link in your character. But figure out which that one is and just work on developing that.

Start practicing that until it becomes a habit. And then it just becomes stronger. You know, you're often told, you know, play to your strengths and just kind of cover for your weaknesses. If you're a manager, hire for your weaknesses. You know, hire other. If you're not very detail oriented, hire an assistant who's detail oriented.

You know? Well, that just doesn't work for the virtues because if you're not very [00:11:00] honest, you can't hire someone to like, be honest for you. Get what I'm saying? So if you're not very resilient, you can't hire someone to provide you with resilience. So, so you have to find the weakest link. And so the app is the quickest way to do that.

But the point I wanted to come back to is the really good news. So if particularly thinking about your audience. Those of us who struggle to not repeat patterns that we inherited, right? The tendency to repeat comes from, because that's what we know. And that's what we have been habituated to, right? Those are the habits that we have inherited.

Joey: We mimic.

Dr. Andrew: Exactly. Um, but if we want to try something different, we have to be aware of something different, aware of a new set of habits. And so what, what is attractive about the book is that it lays out not just some habits, but a comprehensive set of all of the habits that you need to be a successful human being.

There's a total of 50, five, zero. Uh, which I got from St. Thomas Aquinas. We can talk [00:12:00] about Aquinas later if you like. So you have a, in a sense, a roadmap, the terrain map for all of the habits you would need to be a flourishing human being. And the exciting thing is any human being can acquire any one of them.

Through simple daily practice. So you're not labored. You're not cursed with what you inherited. It's different from something like IQ or height, you know, or even preferences like introversion, extroversion, like your height, you can't change your IQ. It's unclear that one could change, you know, um.

Introversion, extroversion, we tend to have stuck with those over decades, but the, the virtues, the super habits are eminently changeable just through regular practice. So when somebody says, well, I'm just a very disorganized person. No, you're not. You just haven't yet cultivated the habit of orderliness, the virtue of orderliness.

You can do that with a little bit of practice every day. After a while. It will become part of you, and you will no [00:13:00] longer be a disorganized person, you will be an organized person. And the best thing of all is, it will be easy for you to be organized. Once you have the habit, it becomes easier. You know, which is I think just really encouraging, really good news.

If somebody came from a household where people lied a lot, And you were raised always kind of fudging the truth and just telling people what you think they want to hear and so on. And you think, well, that's just who I am, right? There's not, there's no hope for me there. Not true. Not true. Through daily, like just practicing, for example, a really good place to start if somebody struggles with telling the honest truth is oftentimes the place where many people go is when you're asked something that you think you should know.

So what time is this? Or what about that? And you'll make up something rather than say, I don't know. That's a good place to practice. Start practicing saying, I don't know, but I'll find out. It's an easy one. It's an easy one because you're not saying, I lied. You're just saying, I don't know, but I'll find out, you know, and you start to do that.

That becomes a habit [00:14:00] that gets easier and then you can carve off another little piece and another little piece as each one of them comes habit, they become part of you. They become easier and slowly. Slowly, you're changing your character

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Joey: if you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does.

We offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed. To help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. I love that. I love the reframe, too, of kind of looking at habits as virtue as almost as a skill. I know it's distinctive from a skill, but what you were saying before is that, you know, it's not that you're a disorganized person, like that's inherent in your character that you could never change, but it's just that you don't know how to be Organize.

I remember listening to Alex Hormozy, a big, uh, business [00:15:00] influencer on Instagram, YouTube. And one of the things he said is like, when it comes to a business, especially don't say that you don't know how to run Facebook ads, don't say that you don't know how to hire well, or don't, don't say you can't hire anyone.

Don't say that you, Facebook ads don't work for your business. He said, say that you don't know how to make them work for your business. You don't know how to do this thing because then it just becomes a deficiency of skill and you could solve a deficiency of skill by practicing. So I know virtues maybe aren't exactly synonymous with skills, but there's a lot of overlap there, so I like that frame, but please, yeah,

Dr. Andrew: there is, there is, um, and here's the way they are different.

The way they are the same is, as you said, that through practice, you can develop any of the virtues. The way they are different, and this is really encouraging, the big difference between virtues as habits and skills as habits is we already have the virtues within us. They just have to be Activate it.

Okay. They're like mental muscles. So I was, um, [00:16:00] I posted something on this recently. I was talking to a teacher at the height school where it's a school for boys in Potomac, Maryland, where my boys went. And this teacher also runs the climbing team for that school. And he was saying to me. We were talking about this and he said, you know, every time I take out a new crop of boys climbing the next day, invariably they come up to me and go, sir, muscles I didn't even know I had are aching me, you know, and I'm sure everyone's had that experience.

Well, the virtues are mental muscles you didn't even know you had. And just like any other, like physical muscles, you have to start to move them and use them and then they get stronger. But it's not a matter of saying, well, I don't know, like, yes, you can learn how, but the moment you start practicing, it comes to you naturally because they are already in you naturally.

So you just have to exercise them. Do you see the difference? They're not foreign to you in any way, they are part of what it means to be human, you just have to exercise them.

Joey: As if they're dormant in your system. Yeah, that makes so [00:17:00] much sense. Exactly. I appreciate that, and I was thinking too about kind of identifying where you're weak.

There's some people have more self awareness than others, I've realized, and so the people who have a higher degree of self awareness probably know, yeah, you know, pride and lust and whatever other virtue or advice is. The struggle for me, I need to work on that. But one of the things that was helpful for me thinking back is, uh, one listening to the feedback that my mentors in my life have given me on like, Hey, you're kind of weak here.

You're not very good at this thing, or you don't have that virtue. That's one. The other thing is just often reflecting back on my life, like the things that I've struggled with gives a good signal, a good clue of, okay, this is where you should focus. But I love the assessment. I love the, the app, especially.

I'm really excited to try that. I tried the previous version, so I'm really excited to try this new version. We'll make sure to. link to all that in the show notes for you guys as well, but so much good stuff here. I think feel free to comment on anything there, but I wanted to ask maybe a basic question I should have asked at the beginning, which is for anyone who isn't aware, what are we talking about when we say virtue?

What is virtue?

Dr. Andrew: So it's a, it's a habit of excellence. We say a habit of excellence that makes, or are there a good habits that makes [00:18:00] you good? So, and the word habit is critical as we've just said, you know, it's not a human characteristic that you were born with. It's something that anyone can develop, but it's something that we already have the tendency for.

This is it. The muscle is already there. It just needs to be. Just needs to be exercised. But the word virtue is really problematic. Because most people when they hear the word virtue, they think maybe virtue signaling. Like just pretending to be good, you know. Or as I said before, goody two shoes, you know.

But that's why I, in the book I use the phrase super habit. A virtue is a super habit. How is a super habit different from any other habits, any regular habits? So, so making your bed or brushing your teeth or wearing a seat belt, these are all habits. They're good habits, but they're not virtues. They're not super habits.

Why? Here's the difference. Super habits, virtues, we know from research, make you happier as you grow in them. And in many cases make you healthier as well, which is really quite stunning. For example, there's research on gratitude as you grow in gratitude. So for example, [00:19:00] using a gratitude journal, write down every day, things you're grateful for that happened that day.

For example, that's how you can grow in gratitude. One way of doing it as you grow in gratitude. We know this from research, not only do you become happier, but there are reductions in mental and physical pain. So if you were, if you struggle with depression or anxiety. Growing gratitude. It goes down. If you struggle with chronic pain, back pain, pain tends to go down as you grow in gratitude.

Wow. Wow. Why does the researchers can't tell us why we can guess we're made to be that way. And so when we grow the way we're meant to be. Everything works better for us, you know, so, so that's one way in which super habits are different or two ways making your bed doesn't make you happier. I mean, yes, maybe momentarily, you know, but growing in any, any virtue and in super habit gives you a more of a lasting happiness makes you healthier.

The other big difference between regular habits and super habits is regular habits. So the habit of [00:20:00] brushing your teeth makes you good at brushing your teeth, but the habit of courage, which is the habit of moving forward even though you're feeling fear, right? Courage is not having no fear. Courage is the habit of moving forward even when fear is present.

If you develop courage on the football field, you can then use it in an interview or when giving a speech. or in having a difficult conversation with a loved one, you know, because the super habits tend to have a much wider scope than regular habits. So those are three big differences. And the fourth one would be they are natural to us.

As I said before. Brushing your teeth is something you have to learn. It's foreign to us as human beings. You know, there was a time when people didn't brush their teeth, but the habits, the super habits of virtues have always been inherent in us.

Joey: I love that. And you mentioned there's 50, the book goes through them, especially the handout.

Is there anywhere online that people can maybe look at a list or see the extensive list? Cause I'm sure people are curious about that. We can link to it as well.

Dr. Andrew: Yep. Um, I have a, I maintain a sub stack and it's. Superhabits. [00:21:00] substack. com. It's Superhabit singular, unlike the book, which is Superhabits plural, because someone else grabbed the plural one and is not using it.

So, we should get off it. But anyway, it's there. Um, and so, yeah, if they go there. There's a number of, of posts about individual super habits. There's one, I can send you the link afterwards, which is called Super Habits 101, which shows you the circle diagram and gives you a kind of just overview of the super habits.

Joey: Beautiful. Thank you. We'll definitely link to that. And I know a few Navy SEALs. So if we need to send them over to that guy's house, have him give up that subset, maybe we can make that happen. But no, I was curious, are there any rough guidelines, I know there's not an exact number on how long. Or how many repetitions a habit takes to acquire

Dr. Andrew: the research is all over the map.

And I think it really depends on the person and the habits, you know, um, so I've heard as little as 11 days, as many as 90, but it could take you a year, you know, so, but you can see progress [00:22:00] after a few days, including starting to feel happier, which is, that's what's so encouraging. I use the phrase in the book, beginning is winning.

So merely starting to work on a single virtue, a single super habit, already is improving your life.

Joey: I love that. And I'm curious too, what's, you already mentioned a few, but I'm curious if you have any hacks or tips for someone who maybe has a tendency to get stuck. Maybe they appreciate the knowledge.

They like listening to books, they like reading books, they like listening to podcasts, but then putting it into action can be hard. And I've heard you say elsewhere to start in the simplest form possible. You basically just mentioned that too, like instead of, you know, lying to say, I don't know. Um, I think I've heard you also say to just pick one.

Don't pick many things because that will prevent action as well. Any other tips that you would offer for someone who maybe, again, they're fine with the knowledge. Learning is not the problem. It's putting into action.

Dr. Andrew: Yeah. So those are, those are really important. The very simplest thing, anything that you is going to allow you to have a win is the place to begin because.

That simplest [00:23:00] thing will then become natural for you and is a foundation, a rung for the next thing, the next simple thing that you could add on. But the other thing might be to, to actually choose a virtue that is going to help you with getting stuff done, such as I already mentioned the virtue of orderliness.

Another virtue, the virtue of foresight, which is the virtue of having and pursuing goals. If you have the right set of goals, then that's going to help you as well. Another thought is this, um, some people, especially if you came from an abusive household where emotional outbursts weren't tolerated, you know, and you had to, you had to repress your anger, your sadness, you know.

You can be emotionally almost dead, you know, and when you have that emotional or dry, should we say, when you have that emotional dryness, that's often a cause of lack of motivation because emotions provide motion, right? They motivate, um, and what Aquinas, this is fascinating [00:24:00] considering he wrote this 750 years ago, the point he makes, and this is all under the heading of self discipline.

So self discipline or temperance is the cardinal virtue for dealing with our desires. And it has many other smaller virtues associated with it, which we could talk about. But the general message is you don't grow in self discipline by willpowering your desires into submission, like pounding them into submission.

You know, so if you have, pick a really simple one for food, you know, with desire for food, you don't grow in abstemiousness, the habit of having a right relationship with food. By just repressing the desire to eat. What you do is you redirect it so that when it's time for feasting, you feast. And when it's time for fasting, you fast.

And at all other times you just eat reasonable amounts of food that you like, you know, an even better example is the virtue of diligence. So when people think of, I need to become more diligent, I need to get my homework done on time. I need to study harder. I [00:25:00] need to just pay attention, you know, and just sort of willpower myself into being more diligent.

Aquinas does not say that's how you grow in diligence. He points out that the way to grow in diligence is to grow in love for your subject. So diligence is a form of self discipline. That's focused on the desire to know things. And so what you do is you're redirecting your desire to know things towards the things that you need to know.

So redirect it towards your homework instead of social media. You know, because if you're wasting the desire to know things on social media, you won't have enough left for your homework. You see what I'm saying? And so if your desires have been repressed, that's often a cause for why you're not motivated to do anything because you just don't feel any desire.

So that, I mean, probably would involve therapy, but what you want to do is rediscover your desires and help tutor them, coax them, guide them into the right directions.

Joey: I love that. We'll have to do an entire show on that one itself, because I can [00:26:00] imagine people listening who may be thinking, Well, my desires aren't my desires.

I don't know if I can necessarily change them. But what you're saying is you can direct them. You can shift them in different directions. Do you have an example, maybe in your own life or the life of one of your students who saw that come about, who was able to bring that about where they desired maybe things that weren't great for them and then through whatever actions they were able to desire something better.

Dr. Andrew: Well, one really famous one is in the book where I tell the story, um, early on in the book, um, about a teenager who was a big strong guy, uh, came from a very difficult home. Parents always fighting father, cheating on mom. And so he's always very angry and never had good things. And so whenever he saw clothes that he wanted, he would steal them.

Whenever somebody annoyed him, he would get into a fight and he would usually win because he's a very big, strong guy, but he's always getting in trouble. His mom frequently had to go to the police station to get him out, you know, because he got trouble again. And one time mom came to pick him up and just burst into tears and said, could you [00:27:00] like.

Stop doing this to me. This is like, could you get your act together? And so, and he sort of realized, okay, I'm, my mom is having a horrible life because my dad is so bad to her and I'm just making it worse. But my stupid stuff I'm doing, but he had these desires to kind of get even, you know, and just to be violent.

And what he did was he, fortunately, he had a couple of really good coaches in his high school. So he started to play football and joined the wrestling team as well. And so the violence in him, the desire to pound someone, he just redirected into football and wrestling and it totally worked. It totally worked.

Um, he ended up one season in the NFL, just one season as far as he got, but then he, he had a really successful wrestling career. And then a really successful Hollywood career and audience will know him as Dwayne The Rock Johnson. Right. So, uh, went from, you know, a path to complete disaster totally turned his life because he refocused those [00:28:00] desires, you know?

So I he's in the chapter on the restraints, the super habit of restraint, which is. Which is restraining petty desires that you might have and kind of redirecting them in more productive ways. I have another chapter on another virtue that I call gentle firmness. Uh, which is a word that I made up, so no one's ever heard of it before.

Um, but I made it up because the, again, the English words fail us. The Latin word is Mansuetudo. There is an English word called Mansuetude, which no one has ever heard of, so that's useless. Um, The common translation is meekness, but meekness, who wants to be meek? It just sounds like weakness, you know, to be a doormat, right?

That's not what Mansoor Tudor is. It's that virtue is the ability to use your anger in productive ways. So every, almost all virtues are the mean between two excesses or two extremes, too much or too little, right? And so, so courage is for dealing with fear, and [00:29:00] too much attention to fear is cowardice.

That's the one, one vice, opposing courage. Too little concern with fear is, is rashness, right? That's the opposite. So, and courage is in between those. Meekness, the correct understanding, or gentle firmness as I call it, is for dealing with anger. Too little control of your anger and you explode, right? And that's, doesn't help anybody.

But too much pressure on your anger and you repress it and that's also very harmful, right? Also leads to all kinds of problems. Whereas gentle firmness is you feel your anger as Energy and you use it to so it's basically gentle firmness is the habit for dealing with when things aren't going the way they should And so you use your anger to try to fix that and in the book I tell the story of Hugh Thompson who was a helicopter pilot in the Vietnam War And was flying as a spotter while the melee massacre was going on.

That's a horrible incident in American history where American soldiers end up killing a bunch of [00:30:00] innocent civilians. And he landed and he basically put a stop to it. Wow. And you can imagine, and he was provoked, right? He landed in front of a bunch of troops were heading towards some civilians who were hiding in a bunker.

He landed in between them and said, Hey guys, stop. I want to help these civilians out of here. And one of the soldiers said, Oh yeah, we can help them out with a grenade, you know? And he's like, no, no, it's okay. Look, I got this. So he remained, he was furious. We know from writings of his colleagues on the plane with him, he was absolutely furious.

But he kept calm, so the gentleness and the firmness can visualize, I like to say, a velvet glove over a steel fist, so your anger makes you firm, you know, with determination, but you also have this calmness over it all. So that's, again, it's a desire, in this case, it's a desire for things to be right. They aren't right, so you are angry, but you channel that anger to do good instead of to blow things up, you know?

Joey: I love that. You make me think of, uh, Jocko Willink, the [00:31:00] retired Navy SEAL who writes leadership books. And a couple things he talks about is just one, you know, being cool in the face of like chaos in the face of, you know, combat. And it was amazing to me reading his books, how I don't, maybe I'm a little bit off here, but it sounds like they were exhibiting this virtue where literally there's bullets flying over those explosions and they're on the radio.

As calm as can be saying, you know, you know, we have these enemy fighters moving towards this building. We need an airstrike here. And they just had that ability. That's one thought. The other thought was I've often seen this in like special operators. I haven't gotten to know many of them, but there's a few high F I had the blessing to like, no, and these men like are incredibly dangerous.

Powerful men, but the way in which they use their strength for good and not to hurt people for the wrong reason is, is incredible. So I love your example of like the middle between the two extremes, too much or too little. I think that's so true. And I think sometimes people think like when they hear the word gentleness, they think it means just Weakness, but I like that balance with [00:32:00] that new word that you made up.

So I am excited to see your name next to that on Google whenever I search that. No, so good. There's so much more I want to talk to you about. I, um, I want to veer towards relationships because this is like the biggest area of struggle. The research is very clear that if you come from a divorce family, this is the area of your life that's most impacted your future relationships, especially your future marriage.

So I'm curious, let's talk a little bit about marriage. How long have

Dr. Andrew: you been married? 27 years.

Joey: Beautiful. Okay. I'm 20 years behind you, only about seven years here. So I'm still, so I consider myself a baby husband, but learning a lot every day. Um, one of the things I remember learning, you would know, uh, John Maxwell, he, I think popularized the idea that like the leader is like the lid on the organization.

I like to think of. You know, each spouse at the lid on their marriage, your marriage will only be as healthy and happy as each of you are. And so what I've seen, especially in the beautiful marriages I've been blessed to know is like the more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage always, always.

And so I'm curious here, what virtues have been the most helpful for you in particular, maybe [00:33:00] the couples you've seen around you when it comes to building a beautiful marriage, especially for the people listening who didn't see that growing up.

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Joey: For countless teens and young adults, their parents divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced.

But so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events.

and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough. By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover since it's in question and answer format.

You can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to [00:34:00] restored ministry. com slash. Books, uh, to get the book or download the free chapters again, that's restored ministry. com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes.

Dr. Andrew: Gosh, yeah, there's a lot. Um, but I would bucket them, many of them under the virtue of justice. There's a whole bunch of virtues. And so honesty is one of them. So they're all, all these verses are related to what do I owe to somebody else? You know, and I think, um, I think honesty is just so key. Like the fact that I know that I can always trust my wife and she can always trust me.

I travel a lot for speaking for business and so on, fundraising, et cetera, that she never has to worry that where is he tonight? What is he doing? You know, just like, yeah, we're completely honest with each other. And I, I say completely one time in the first year of our marriage, She came home and said, how do I look in this dress?

That's the one time when you shouldn't be honest. Or rather you could be a little more creative. [00:35:00] I learned that lesson very early on. It wasn't a good fit for her and uh, anyway, there might have been a nicer way of saying it. So anyway, um, so that's one. But also I think virtues related to courage are important as well.

Because sometimes you need to say something to your spouse and, you know, especially if they inherited habits of anger, you know, so sometimes we can be a little bit hesitant. So I don't bring that up. That's going to cause an explosion, you know, it's like, well, let the explosion happen, you know, and try to again, try to bring some gentle firmness to the, to the occasion, I think would be another.

My wife would say we do a class for our graduating students together at the Bush school, our seniors, and we do it on relationships and marriage. And she would say. And this isn't one of the 50 virtues, but it's a, it's an aspect of the [00:36:00] virtue of charity or love, right, which is just kindness, just kindness goes such a long way to, to making relationships work, you know, because it just brings, in fact, um, I go back to justice, friendliness or friendship is also related to the virtue of justice in the sense that we owe others that we come into contact with.

Some level of friendliness, you know, doesn't mean that every morning when I get on the subway car, I have to go and introduce myself to everybody there. They would think I was weird, you know, but if you're hanging out with somebody or working with somebody, then trying to act in a friendly manner. Just makes life more manageable.

And that's absolutely true. I think with spouses.

Joey: So good. Remember, I think it was jump hold a second when he was a priest, when he wrote love and responsibility where he said the number one thing missing in marriages today is tenderness, which seems to fit under if I'm Understanding, right? Maybe kindness.

Would you put it anywhere else?

Dr. Andrew: Yeah. No, I think so. I think so. Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. And how true is that? My goodness. Like even in my own marriage, [00:37:00] but even the marriages around me, the marriages, especially that fall apart, like there's such a lack of tenderness.

Dr. Andrew: Yeah. And it's just the little things accumulated over time.

Yeah.

Joey: No, no, I couldn't agree more. Anything in particular you would add for someone listening right now who says, you know, I want a virtuous spouse. I want a spouse who has good habits. Obviously they could take the list that you just said and say, that's what I'm going to look for. Anything you would add to give that person advice to find a good spouse?

Dr. Andrew: Well, the first bit of advice at the risk of being obvious is be that person yourself, right? So be the kind of person you want to marry and then like attracts like in that sense. And then second, gosh, it's, it's almost hard for me to say because 27 years ago, I wasn't thinking this way when I met my wife, so it was more instinctive assessment, you know, but even just having that measure, so I have two sons and four daughters, daughters love to watch Pride and prejudice.

I don't know how many times we've seen. I love it too. I've read the book three times, I think myself, [00:38:00] but what is so attractive about the heroines in Jane Austen is their virtue, you know, they are honest, they are courageous, they are, you know, just, you kind of go down the list and as you know, we live in a very superficial society.

So we tend to look at looks, you know, but I think The right measure is virtue. You know, you marry someone who is virtuous or at least striving to be so because we're all of us. No one's there. We're all of us striving, you know, but at least are you sharing the same vision of what a virtuous person is?

You know, do we agree on what our virtues and what aren't? So, for example, if somebody thought that tolerance was a virtue, I wouldn't agree with them. It's not among the list of 50 and it's not something. That is, yeah, it's going to easily be abused, you know, so, so it doesn't count as a virtue. Virtue can't be abused, you know.

Joey: So good. I love that. And one final thing when it comes to relationships and marriage, I'm curious about conflicts because that's such a sticky, dangerous, fearful topic [00:39:00] for our audience because Again, so many of us growing up, we saw such a poor example of resolving conflict. Often there was no resolution and probably got really loud and then mom or dad walked away.

And that's the example that was set. Um, anything in particular you would say here on how to kind of relearn how to navigate conflict, especially if it's scary for a young person.

Dr. Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And I should, maybe I should have said this at the beginning of the podcast. I'm a professor of marketing. Not a therapist, not a psychiatrist, right?

Just, just be very, I run a business school just to be very clear. This is all kind of, yeah. Okay. Just to be clear, the

Joey: wisdom is there. You have the wisdom

Dr. Andrew: I mentioned before about temperance or self discipline focusing on our desires, um, courage and its related virtues focuses on our fears in the same way we can redirect our desires into more healthy areas.

We can use the energy from our fear by reframing it as a challenge. [00:40:00] So if I'm afraid of the blow up, that's going to come, if I broach a difficult conversation, I can think about that as a challenge. Okay. I know the blow up's coming. It's going to be painful, but I'm going to observe it, experience it. So in the same way that your special forces friends are able to sit there and talk quietly while bullets are flying, they weren't born that way.

They learned that they practiced it right then through it became a habit. In the same way, anybody can learn to receive a blast of anger, right? Or to experience a bunch of fear in anticipation of a blast of anger and start to get used to it calmly. And then what happens to the other person is when their anger is received with calm and patience and listening.

That anger starts to subside and eventually we get to kind of what is the, what is the root cause, you know, and then we can start to have a constructive dialogue around that. It takes a lot of practice, but that's, I think is necessary. I think the religious [00:41:00] benefit here for us going into marriage was when we got married, we knew it was forever that there was no, there was no exit strategy for either of us.

And that really helps because it's like when things are really bad, you know, There's no alternative. We just have to fix this, you know, and there were times in 27 years when it was hard, but issues that had to be worked out. And if there was an exit door, maybe one of us might've said, I'm out of here, you know, but because there wasn't, you try and you figure out how to solve it.

And now I would say, I would say I am sure of, and my wife says the same thing. We are both happier than we've ever been. Our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. And so glad to have gone through those difficult patches because they just eventually brought us closer together.

Joey: Yeah, I love that.

There's a study I saw recently, I can't recall the name, where they looked at people who were struggling within marriage, and then some got divorced, some stayed married, continued to struggle and work on it, and then they went ahead so many years, maybe five or ten years, to look at their happiness level in life, and they found that the ones [00:42:00] who didn't get divorced, who stayed married, you know, assuming there wasn't extreme cases of like abuse, things like that, ended up being happier than the ones who chose to get divorced.

So I think there's something really instructive, even if we take the religious component of it out of it and just say, no, there's actually something really good about sticking it out, you know, again, assuming you're safe and there's not abuse. But I, yeah, I've seen that even in my own marriage with just.

Understanding that it's going to be messy, and I think this applies to any sort of virtue building. I mean, any skill you're learning, too, on a simpler level, it's like, my daughter's three and a half right now, you know, I'm teaching her many things. Like, one of the phrases we like to throw around around here is like, you're not competent at that yet.

Like, you're learning, and that's okay. Like, everything's, you're, you're in training. You know, if she's wondering, like, why can't I have the scissors, or why can't I do this or that, it's like, well, you're not competent yet, you will be, why can't I, you know, climb the edge of the stairs by myself, you're not competent yet, but then as she gets more competent, she can see herself growing, but it's messy with kids, it's messy in our own lives, it's messy within marriage, and I think that It is an important reminder because as I sometimes tell the young [00:43:00] people that we mentor to is, you're probably going to screw it up in some way, right?

You maybe are going to go a little too far this way, a little too far that way in terms of access or deficit. And that's okay. That's part of the process. But if you kind of are directionally moving toward where you need to be, that's a more important thing. Would you say anything about the kind of the messy nature of acquiring the virtues?

Dr. Andrew: Well, the challenge idea is every time you, you face a challenge and you work through it. You're actually developing one or more virtues. And so, so the, the idea of facing challenges, facing fears and treating the fears as challenges, it's how we grow, you know, nobody grows by sitting down and avoiding all risks, you know, or all challenges we grow by engaging with them, sometimes losing, sometimes winning, if we have time, there's a helpful four part, four step sequence for when thinking about how we grow in virtue.

Which I have labeled again, because the original words, the meanings aren't very clear to people, but when you start out [00:44:00] at the level of a vice where you have a bad habit, not a good habit, say lying, we can label that as unconsciously incompetent. So you don't have the competence as you say, but you don't even know you don't have the competence.

You just think that lying is a good strategy. So why wouldn't I do that? At some point you realize this is hurting my relationships is hurting my success or whatever So then you start struggling to try to not to you try to tell truth more often and you become consciously incompetent So you know that you're not good at it, but at least you know, and you're trying and you try, but you tend to fail more often than not.

You slip into the old ways of doing things, but you keep trying, keep trying. Eventually you cross the line and you become consciously competent where you're now doing it right. You know you're doing it right, but it's still an effort. It's still a struggle. You're tempted to tell the lie whenever it's more convenient, but you more often than not, you tell the truth.

That's still not at the level of virtue. Virtue is the next step, which is unconsciously competent. You now have absorbed that habit, and you [00:45:00] don't even have to think about it. You're no longer saying, should I tell the truth? I must remember to tell the truth. It's just not even a question in your mind.

You're just, you're honest now, because it's become part of you. That's what it means to be truly virtuous. And this is the shocking good news. It's that it's easier to be virtuous than to not. Like the more, I had this discussion with a bunch of my freshman students last night. In class, who is more moral, the person who has to struggle to tell the truth or who tells it easily?

They're like, Oh, the struggle is more moral. Uh uh. The more moral one is the one who has so perfected it that it's easy. So the end result of all this striving is life gets easier. It gets easier to do the good thing, to do the right thing, to have a happy life. What good news, I think.

Joey: Amen. No, so good. I love it.

There's so much more I want to talk to you about. Let's close it down there. Thank you so much for being here. If people want to buy the book and learn more from you, how could they do that?

Dr. Andrew: So the, the Substack, superhabit. substack. com is a good place to go. They can [00:46:00] follow me on LinkedIn and I respond to whatever questions or comments people put there.

And Sophia Press is the publisher of the book Superhabits. It's also available on Amazon, Barnes Noble, or wherever else.

Joey: Great. And we'll link to all that in the, in the show notes. I, again, thank you, Dr. Bala. I've learned a lot from you from afar. It's great to speak with you in person. I'm excited to continue working through the book and just to practice this stuff in my own life.

So thank you. I really appreciate it. I want to give you the final word. If someone maybe is feeling overwhelmed, this is maybe new to them, where should they start? What encouragement, what advice would you give to them there?

Dr. Andrew: I would, so the very first chapter in the book is the virtue of restraint. It's a really good beginner virtue because if, if we tend to give into impulses very easily, then it's hard to ever get control of our lives and we can be tempted to surrender.

It's like I, I give into like temptation to eat, to impulse shop, to say rude things to people, just, I'm just driven by my impulses. But it's one way you can make really good progress really quickly. [00:47:00] Just by picking one aspect of your life. You know, let's say every time I go on Amazon I'm tempted to buy something that's on sale.

What if I start to practice the habit of just putting it into a wish list instead and then I'll go back and look at it tomorrow. Tiny little change like that builds the muscle of restraint which you can then use throughout of your life. So beginning is winning. Just pick one really tiny thing like that and just start doing it every day.

Joey: I'm super impressed with Dr. Abel, and I'm really excited for anyone who decides to read or listen to his book, Super Habits. You could find the link to that book in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube.

You'll avoid missing future episodes by doing that, and you'll help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback, and that also helps us reach more people. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction.

You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go [00:48:00] back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#143: When Your Divorced Parent Dies: Grieving, Healing, & Closure | Ben

After a relapse into alcoholism, Ben’s mom left him, his family, and the country for years when he was just 5 years old. When she returned, he struggled in his relationship with her but placed proper boundaries and found some resolution. But his mom’s death in Ben’s late 20s brought new pain. 

In this episode, you’ll hear his wild story, plus:

• The resolution he experienced with his mom and an unexpected tactic that’s helped him heal after his mom’s death

• The place of justice, mercy, and blame after your parents’ divorce

• How he was skeptical of marriage and what taught him that a good family is possible

If you’re struggle in your relationship with mom or a parent died without you resolving things with them, this episode is for you.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Ben: [00:00:00] My parents divorced when I was pretty young. I was I think five years old. My parents met an Alcoholics Anonymous. My dad's been sober for like 40 years. My mom had been sober for a significantly less amount of time. They started this relationship and my mom like relapsed right around the time that I was like between two and three years old.

And so, not only did she, she relapse, she relapse like really hard, and while she was relapsing, she was having like a lot of other mental health crises. My mom, I think, was the one who ultimately said, you know, I gotta go, I'm out, I'm leaving. And my dad just couldn't do anything about it. It really hurts that she just, like, completely abandoned me.

I think getting stuck being the victim, that is, like, such a huge temptation. And I think that when you get hooked on blame, you're just taking away all of your own power to, like, heal, you know?

Joey (2): Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or [00:01:00] broken family, this show is for you.

We help you heal your brokenness, navigate all the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Ben. He studied theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, where he met his wife and was introduced to Focus, the Fellowship of Catholic University Students.

After graduating, he married his wife and the two of them became Focus missionaries in Alabama, where they spent four years leading Bible studies and mentoring college students. In 2020, They moved to Pennsylvania and continue to mentor young adults and lead multiple ministries at the church at their parish.

Ben has four kids and two beehives. I'm excited for you guys to hear Ben's story. After a relapse into alcoholism, Ben's mom left him, his family and the country for years when he was just five years old. When she returned, as you can imagine, he struggled in his relationship with her, but he eventually placed some proper boundaries in place and found some resolution.

But his mom's death in Ben's late twenties brought new pain into his life. And in this episode, You'll hear his kind of wild story. Plus, uh, the resolution that he experienced with his mom and unexpected tactic that's [00:02:00] helped him heal. After his mom's death, we discussed justice, mercy, and whether blame is fruitful or not after your parents divorce, he talks about how he was skeptical of marriage and what taught him that a good marriage, a good family.

Actually possible. And then we talk about that, the four characters we all play in life. And so if you struggle in your relationship with your mom, or maybe a parent died without you resolving things with them, this episode is for you with that. Here's our heavy, but good conversation. Ben welcome in. So good to have you here.

Ben: Thank you.

Joey (2): Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. I, um, know a little bit of your story from a distance, uh, just being honest and I was really, I'm really excited to kind of go into a little bit more. So like we usually do, we'll just dive right in. What was life like in the years and months before your parents split?

Ben: Well, my, uh, my parents divorced when I was pretty young. I was, I think, five years old when my parents divorced. So, I don't have, like, a lot of experiential memories from that time. I [00:03:00] don't have a lot of memories. I have very few memories of that time, like, at all, actually. Almost all of the things that I can remember, my earliest memories, come after the divorce.

But, you know, Recently, I have been able to go through some home videos, and I got a, a box of pictures from my mom a couple years ago, and, you know, you can, you can sort of, like, pick out details from the videos and the pictures and everything like that, and, you know, I've heard stories from my, from my dad, I've heard stories from my mom and from her sisters about what kind of a person she was like and what their, what my dad and her relationship was like, so, basically, You know, at the beginning, when you look at pictures or like home videos from, you know, when my parents are first together, still deeply in love, all those kinds of things.

I'm like one years old. My mom is just very, yeah, she's, she's pretty. She's got long hair, she's taking care of herself, she's, in the home [00:04:00] videos she laughs a lot, she's like, getting outside and she's active and she's like, doing things, there's this one home video where she's like, making a birdhouse for a bird and my dad says something like, There's Jenny, always looking out for the less fortunate, you know, so you just tell that they were, uh, my mom is in a really good place, and my dad, Was in love with her.

Um, at least I can, I could tell that and You know My mom had this like really big Mental health, like, meltdown, basically, around the time that I was two years old. My parents actually met, from what I understand, my parents met in Alcoholics Anonymous. My dad's been sober for, like, 40 years. My mom had been sober for a significantly less amount of time.

So they met in Alcoholics Anonymous, they started this relationship, and my mom, like, relapsed. Right around the time that I was, like, between two and three years old. And so, not only did she, she relapse, she relapse, like, really hard. [00:05:00] And while she was relapsing, she was having, like, a lot of other mental health crises.

Like, she was diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia, and her world just really, like, collapsed in a big way when I was, like, between the ages of two and three. And so, As you're watching, like, the home videos, you slowly start to see more and more of that, like, pop up, where My mom seems to be gaining weight and at some point like she chops her hair off Which is like wouldn't have been normal behavior for her, you know You can tell she's just stops taking care of herself.

Her voice gets like duller and flatter This is one video where she says something like I'm happy to be home I love my family and I'm glad I'm home and what she's referring to is like She was in jail for a couple days due to a DUI, things like that. I remember a lot more like refereeing, a lot more fights.

I can remember sometimes refereeing fights and I remember my mom leaving a lot at night. I didn't quite [00:06:00] understand then but she was out going out to go get drunk with her friends. My dad was honestly still I mean, so my dad had been through all that, too. He was an alcoholic, he had recovered. So he tried to be as understanding as possible, but at the end of the day, it was just very difficult for him to convince my mom to stay, actually.

Um, my mom, I think, was the one who ultimately said, you know, I gotta go. I'm out. I'm leaving. And my dad just couldn't do anything about it, you know, her, her mental health was just driving her in a direction that he just knew he couldn't really do anything about it. So, and that's kind of the, it happened pretty quickly, you know, I was two and a half when my mom relapsed and had her mental health crises and I was like five when my parents divorced.

So, in the course of like two years, two and a half years, everything unraveled. And so it was just a progressively more chaotic environment i think [00:07:00] particularly for my dad you know i was very young so i don't know how much i picked up on it i mean i'm sure i did a lot but for my dad who was just trying to he was really trying to keep everything together and keep her home and try to make her stay but he couldn't at the end so

Joey (2): man what a heavy thing to carry the kid.

And even, even that scene, like that image of you, like, referring fights as like, what, a four year old?

Ben: Yeah.

Joey (2): Like, what the heck?

Ben: We don't swear, Dad. Don't say those words. You know, just like that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Joey (2): Yeah. No, and I've seen that play out in situations that I've been Yeah, man, that is so rough. I, um, gosh, and I can't imagine, you know, what all of them are going through, like all of you kind of having like your own unique experience in pain, like your mom too, you know, it's just like so rough, not, not to excuse the behavior at all, but it's like, my goodness, like what sort of pain and trauma and brokenness and, you know, her life, which would have led her down that path again.

That's super, super rough. And we don't have to go into that if you're not comfortable, but, [00:08:00] um, yeah, just like it kind of sucks all around.

Ben: Yeah, I mean you don't, you know, you generally don't have giant mental health crises unless you yourself have been hurt deeply by somebody, you know, and I mean This is probably pretty familiar to anybody like basically familiar with The idea of broken families is that, of course, my mom came from a broken family too, and people in my mom's family struggled with alcoholism and mental health issues, and she wasn't entirely protected from the darkness of what happens in the world, you know, and so, I mean, part of my having to deal with it as a, as an adult is trying to wrestle with the fact that, you know, during those five years, My mom hurt me a lot, but I had to wrestle with the fact that she was also really hurt a lot.

Like how much culpability can you, I guess, assign her and how much can you excuse it? It's, that's the kind of difficulties that, that come with, with dealing with it now. [00:09:00]

Joey (2): I remember, um, father John Burns saying that the Latin word for. Mercy, misericordia, literally means, you know, to just have a heart for the misery of the other, right?

Joey: To be

Joey (2): moved by the misery of the other, and like that being kind of a prerequisite to forgiveness. But it's kind of a scary place to be, like to, you know, go into that and ask that question, like, What were they going through that caused them to do this thing that was wrong? Like, we're not excusing that by any means, but, yeah.

It's such a tough thing to go through, but it sounds like you've had to wrestle with that a lot.

Ben: Yeah, I mean, you know, in the, in the years after the divorce, I mean, that's, Basically what I ended up growing up with after my parents divorced my mom went to like England for a couple years And I don't exactly know what she was how she was surviving or really what she was doing actually But when she came back, I was I was getting older and just asking a lot of you know I was realizing how awful it was that my parents were divorced and how sad I was about it.

[00:10:00] And, you know, it was the question of like, how much blame do I put on my mom? Like, how much can I put was a question I asked myself a lot. And I think my tendency as a person is generally to not assign a lot of blame to people. I was significantly more merciful to her, but, but it's not like the right kind of mercy all the time necessarily, you know, like, I think that I was significantly more, I just had a proclivity to like totally absolve her of all wrongdoing sometimes, you

Joey (2): know, like

Ben: that was just something that

Joey (2): I did.

I've struggled with that too. I remember when my parents first split, yeah, just like, especially wanting to not believe essentially that my dad had any sort of part in it or any sort of responsibility for it because I looked up to him so much and kind of related to the other end of it. But I'm curious.

I have a couple of questions about the blame thing. Where have you come with that? Like, what are your thoughts on that if someone maybe is listening right now and they're wrestling with [00:11:00] that too? Like, do I? Blame my parents? Do I not? Do I absorb it? Do I give them part blame? Like, where have you landed with that?

Ben: Yeah, it's uh, okay, well, another, another thing to point out, I, my, my mom passed away a couple years ago, so my mom passed away about two and a half years ago, so I was dealing with it a lot, like two and a half years ago, because, you know, when somebody dies, you kind of You're forced to like reckon with their life story like that's that's what you do when somebody dies is you try to Understand their life story and figure out what kind of put some finality on like, okay, what did this person mean to me?

How did this person affect my life? Like how do I want to carry this person on with me? And so obviously it engenders a lot of this kind of reflection and I thought about the blame thing a lot And it was just really it was really hard the way that I have described it Is that it feels like trying to fit a fitted sheet over a mattress, but the fitted sheet is just too small.

[00:12:00] And so it's like, you put the two corners of the fitted sheet over the mattress and then you pull it one way. And as soon as you're about to like, cover the whole mattress, this side like, flings out at you. And it's like, That's what I felt like with my mom and still sometimes what I feel like where it's like, okay I blame her like she was a bad person and she did terrible things to me and she did terrible things to my dad And she just, in general, lived a very bad life, and so I blame her, so I put like the, but then it's like, I put the she on that side of the mattress, the blame side of the mattress, but then I realized, like, but she still was really hurt, and she still had all of her stuff, and, you know, the way that she made me feel, Other people made her feel maybe even ten times worse.

And so then you try to like pull it and try to get it all together and then the other side just slaps off. And so you like, to me, it's like really hard to wrap my mind around like the whole situation, the whole mattress, so to speak. [00:13:00] And I don't really I think that I basically landed on it is ultimately not my job to make a definitive, like, blame or not blame judgment.

That I can recognize the fact that she hurt me and she hurt my dad and I can appreciate that and validate that fact and say, yes, this is true. And I can also say she herself was very hurt by her parents and by other people. And so I can validate both of those things and you don't have to put all of the chips in One of those sides of the table, you know, like you don't have to say it was all the people who heard her Or it was just all her fault.

Like you can, I've tried to stay comfortable with the tension that comes about by saying, yep, she was really hurt. And also she really hurt me. Um, and just live in that tension and try not to have to follow it [00:14:00] one way or the other, make a judgment, try not to make a judgment about it. And I think that's been really helpful for me just to, to kind of.

Take a deep breath and let it just not be a problem whether she should be blamed or not blamed. You know, just let it be like it was a fact that she hurt me and I can deal with that and also accept the fact that she was hurt by others as well. Yeah. You know what I mean? I do, yeah. That's what I try to do nowadays.

Joey (2): And this has been something that has been a kind of a struggle for me. I'd love your further thoughts, but I wanted to kind of chime in, um, you know, I've, I've kind of had this conversation with myself and maybe even my siblings of like, you know, it was dad, this percentage of blame and mom, this was this percentage of blame.

And I think you're right at the end of the day, it is somewhat of like a fruitless exercise to try to like perfectly calculate and assign blame. Um, and I think it does, it can lead to like a lot of bitterness at the same time, what you said, well, of like, speak the facts. Thanks. Just, like, state the facts.

There's, like, something good and freeing [00:15:00] about that, too, of, like, not hiding from it, not pretending it wasn't that way, but just, like, stating the facts. This is what my life was like. This is probably why my mom acted this way. Um, this is why things ended up being this way. And that, that sucked. Like, that was bad.

That was harmful. No child should have to go through that. So, so I, I like what you said about, like, that tension. And I was thinking, too, about What's the purpose of assigning blame? And I think in the, you know, I think of like the justice system, it's like in the justice system, the purpose of assigning blame, assigning guilt, we could say is trying to figure out what the, I guess, penalty will be in order to bring some sort of like recompense or recovery or compensation, whatever that might look like to the person who was hurt.

And so I think in this situation, especially if we're looking at it through like the lens of like mercy and forgiveness, which, you know, obviously goes like beyond justice, I don't think we need to be as like exact in calculating. What do you think about that?

Ben: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to especially the mercy and forgiveness part, like there's a certain sense in which calculation is kind of like the enemy of mercy.

I think that's [00:16:00] absolutely true. Where if you are, if you are keeping score and you're saying, well, okay, if you're saying this person, Really owes me this but i'm willing and have like a precise Calculated like this person owes me that but i'm willing to forgive that. Um, I I don't know if that is particularly Merciful.

Um, I think what what true mercy comes down to is like You know, i'm going to forgive you and extend my mercy to you regardless of how much blame you have, you know, like You and I are just we're okay, you know, like Whatever, like the, the count was, the count is no longer there anymore. And I think that if you keep that count, I think that can be truly an enemy of mercy.

And I think that's true for anybody, whether it's like dealing with your parents, dealing with a spouse, dealing with friends, like when you start keeping the scorecard, you just get a lot less merciful. [00:17:00] Um, it just, you stop, you stop extending that mercy. I also think a big part of the reason why we want to like be able to clearly Assign blame to one person or the other is because, you know, we're, we're humans and one of the things that we humans really like is having a nice, clear, neat narrative, you know, like we really like the nice stories of the most timeless stories have clear good guys and clear bad guys.

And that's it. Right. And we like to make sense of our lives. In terms of that, we like to make sense of our lives, and assigning blame is a really good way of just making our narratives nice and neat. Like, if I just blamed my mom, and I just said, Yep, it was her problem and her fault, and she was a bad person, and because she was a bad person, my parents marriage failed, and because she was a bad person, the beginning of my life was totally screwed up, blah blah blah, then it would be an easy story.

To [00:18:00] go with, but it wouldn't be like the true story, and I think because it wouldn't really be a true story, it wouldn't allow me to actually heal, to actually become a better, holier person, it would actually stunt my growth, and stunt my ability to interact with reality, so I think part of the whole situation is being able to step back and say, the narrative, the story, I am a player in that story, And the story goes way beyond me, you know, and I can't, I am not going to be able to connect all of the dots from like a God's eye view, you know, I have to be content to know and trust that the story does make sense in some cosmological way, and that I just can't know everything about it.

I love that. I think those, those are the two reasons really why we blame people is like. I think we want to be able to like, like you said, know exactly what is out us and we want to have a really clear narrative, but I don't think that either [00:19:00] of those things are particularly helpful for living your life, you know,

Joey (2): yeah, you're so right to point out that life is messier than.

The stories that we see in here, there often isn't like a clear resolution and, you know, in stories, there's like four characters, right? There's the hero, the protagonist, there's the, the villain, the one who's like the antagonist trying to stop them. Um, but then there's also these two other characters.

There's the guide who's helping the hero. And then there's also the victim, the people in the story who kind of are like helpless, powerless. And I think What I hear you saying is that if we get stuck on blame, if we get stuck on blame, there's a high likelihood that we're going to just turn into the victim.

And if we turn into the victim, then what happens from there is I know well, cause I've struggled with this is that we just start blaming our parents or our past for every wrong thing in our life and never take any ownership and never start working towards like, you know, maybe I didn't cause that thing to happen, but I could take ownership of the solution.

I could take ownership of like my life right now today. And I could, you know, solve the problems that I'm faced with, uh, [00:20:00] to a degree I can. And so I think, I think that's like a real danger. And I just want to put one caveat in there too. I think, you know, in the process of forgiveness, I've heard people say, Father Mike Schmitz talks about this, how, you know, there is a point to like counting the costs, but I see.

But the blame thing is like almost like getting obsessive with that as like taking that too far, not just counting the cost in order to forgive the person and free them of their debt. But kind of, yeah, like you said, being a little bit more like scorekeeper, you know, you hurt me this much. Therefore, like I deserve this.

Ben: Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and that's a really, that's such a tight rope to walk. You want to be able to admit that people did you wrong, but also not get too wrapped up in it. I don't know how to do that. I don't, I mean, I don't have the

Joey (2): perfect balance either,

Ben: but yeah, I think, I think getting stuck being the victim, that is like such a huge temptation.

And I think that when you get hooked on blame, you end up doing that. And then you're just taking away all of your own power

Joey (2): to like, heal, you know, no, I love that. And I'm glad to are going into this. One other thing I was thinking of was [00:21:00] how the home videos seem to have impacted you. Talk about that a little bit.

Like, what was it like watching those? Do you recommend people do that or yeah, I'm just curious kind of going back and kind of understanding your past even before like you said at the beginning Maybe you have like that explicit cognitive memory of what happened with you Even though it's kind of like baked into your bones into your you know subconscious.

Ben: Yeah, it was uh, it was a really It was a really bittersweet experience to go back and watch those home videos because Some of it just really sucked. I mean some of it was just like it is really Not fun, like the videos that were closer like during her mental collapse Basically, it was really not fun to watch that.

It was like not fun to See her that way. Um, it was also kind of not fun to see that like There was once a time where my mom was like, super functional and happy [00:22:00] and in love and stuff. And it was not really fun to watch that, like, transform into what I saw in the later videos. It wasn't fun. I mean, it there were, but it was good.

It was, like I think it was really important stuff for me to see, because it helped me, I guess, fill in the blanks a little bit, about, well, what was my mom actually like, and also, what was she, what was this process like for her, what was it like for my dad, what was it probably like for me as a kid, you know, even though I technically experienced it, I don't remember much of it, so like, I was able to watch myself, and how, like, I was able to learn about how I, Was reacting to things by watching those videos, you know, and that was I think that was informative too So it just helped me get a lot of perspective on it and you know, I think another thing that it did help me do was Recognize that there were a lot of good things, you know, and that was something that my mom [00:23:00] talked about later in my life like Before she passed away was just like, you know She was like obviously things didn't work out between me and your dad But I want you to know that like it was really good for a while, you know, like it wasn't just Garbage, but like we really did love each other And she really wanted me to know that like I had come out of a relationship of love And even though that relationship was like kind of corrupted Or, you know, even though that relationship was eventually broke down, I should say, that the relationship that I came out of was a really loving relationship and it was good for me to look back and say, yeah, that's true.

Um, it was a loving relationship that I came out of, um, that I was produced by, you know? Um, so that, I think that was really helpful for me. That was probably the most helpful thing for me to see was just like, they were in love. I had never seen that before. I had never known, [00:24:00] truly, that my dad was in love with my mom or vice versa.

Like, I had never cognized, like, recognized that fact. So being able to go back and look at old videos, you know, is bittersweet. The bitter was, it's not like that anymore. And it wasn't that way for very long, but the sweet was that there was something there that was good and human and beautiful.

Joey (2): I love that.

And I appreciate you going there because I think, like, so much of what you said makes a lot of sense to me. Like, the self knowledge that comes from kind of understanding our family and our past is powerful. Like, it helps us understand, like, why we think, feel, and act the way that we do. And then especially if there's parts of our lives that we're not super proud of, we want to change, I think there is power in, like, being able to over transform.

through understanding like the why behind why you do that thing, whether it's an addiction, a bad habit, something like that. So I think the self knowledge is really powerful, but kind of scary. I remember years ago, my dad has bipolar disease and um, he was in hospital and uh, just in a tough spot [00:25:00] struggling and.

I was trying to get him some help. I saw that the kind of typical conventional treatment of like, you know, whatever they did in the psych hospital, like meds and shock therapy and whatever else, like wasn't really doing the trick. This is, it had been like, I don't know how many times back to the same spot.

And so I was like, there has to be another way. So I, you know, looked into trauma therapy and found this awesome trauma therapist who we now work with through restored, but, um, as part of helping him, I went through and like created a timeline of his life and obviously it impact, it was like somewhat of a timeline of my life too, seeing kind of like the ways in which he.

You know, like kind of what life had thrown at him without going into it too much and, um, it was really instructive. It's kind of painful, but instructive. And it led me to a place of like a lot more compassion for him, but also kind of a better understanding of myself. Like, wow, okay, this is where I come from.

This is what was going on in my, you know, grandparents family. This is going on in my dad's life as a young person. This is what happened, you know, around the time when my parents were getting married and, Dating and getting married and then like early family life and all of that. And it was really, really eyeopening.

[00:26:00] Again, not the easiest stuff to swallow, but I do think that I do think it's helpful. So I'm curious if you have any advice for everyone listening, do you think it's worth going back to that stuff and digging it up? What would you say? Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's absolutely worth it. I think that it's vulnerable certainly, but it's.

I would certainly recommend revisiting those old memories, and those old pictures, and those old videos, and just facing all of that to help understand. And you know, there are, there are some pictures that I have of my parents that I like. From the olden days that I like keep around and use as bookmarks, you know?

Or old pictures of, like, her and me when I was, like, real young, like, two, and she's just very happy, and we're in a pumpkin patch or something, and I just try to keep them around just to have something good. To remember that helps me under just like go back to the fact that it's just more complex [00:27:00] than, you know, it's just a more complex situation.

Um, there's good and bad in between. I think it's a great idea. I think that there's also a lot of it helps you. I did do therapy for a little bit for, for these kinds of things. And, and a lot of what we did was I forget like the technical name for it, but it was, it's like when you remember something, but you're trying to like, take all of the negative emotions that are associated with the memory and sort of just like diffuse them or change them.

Like, I remember my. My therapist, uh, was in college. He literally, it was like, it has something to do with REM. I'm totally butchering this, but like, Something about

Joey (2): REM, sorry? EMDR, maybe rapid eye, the eye movement therapy? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Ben: Yeah, it's, it's the rapid eye movement for sure. And there's something about that that is connected with like, Our memories and our emotions and so like he would give me these two little things and he would literally just like rapidly move the vibrations that I was holding [00:28:00] so it would vibrate on my right hand and then my left hand and somehow that like gets your body into like the emotional connection with memories

Joey (2): thing.

Nice.

Ben: Don't exactly know how it works and so then you would re go through your memories and if you had a bad one something that was causing like a wound or a trauma in your psychological life now you could go back and kind of like. Walk yourself through that memory and try to change your emotional perspective on it and it would help you in your real life.

And anyway, whether you're doing the technical part of it or not, I think just going back and trying to encounter like the home videos and the pictures. And revisit all those bad memories, all of those things that ultimately are traumatic and hurt you, and try to achieve a new openness about them, and through that openness, alter the way that you feel, or like, alter the way that you look at them, or your perspective towards them, I think that that would go a long way in [00:29:00] helping anybody overcome, like, The hurdles of trauma in their day to day life now,

Joey (2): you know.

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No, that's such good advice and yeah, I love, I love like the nuance that you're adding to that life is. Not just black and white, there's a lot of color in it. And yeah, no, this is so good. Um, I'm sure everyone's thinking like, tell us more about your relationship with your mom. Like, where did it go from there?

And you know, how did it end? And things like that. So yeah, I'm curious. And I know it's kind of unique that I'm sure there's people listening who have lost their mom or their dad and are in a similar spot. But I think most people, you know, listening, I haven't had that experience yet. And so, yeah, any, I'm curious of any advice.

Uh, on that front too, but before that, I'm curious kind of how things progress with your mom and where did they, where did they end up?

Ben: Yeah, so my mom, like I said, my, my parents divorced my mom Went to like [00:31:00] england I think it's basically kind of like a i'm gonna go find myself situation. Actually, she changed her name.

So she changed her name from Jenny Pluta to Ada Fitzgerald because she wanted to like feel more connected with her like Celtic roots or whatever. And then she went to England to sort of like, I think just try to, she was searching for like an identity that she felt comfortable with, right? Like she was, that's why she changed her name.

Um, there's actually When, when my mom died, I was going through her, some of her things, and she actually had this like, name change announcement, you know? And it was like, she sent out, they were like, almost like wedding invitations, and they were, they were really dramatic, on the front it said, um, it said, Oh, what's in a name?

A rose by any other name would still be a rose. William Shakespeare. So it was like, oh, what's in a name, William Shakespeare, then it said everything, Ada Fitzgerald, you know, and it was just like pretty, it was pretty dramatic. [00:32:00] It was like a little, a little cringy. Um, but she was, so she like put a lot of stock in that name change.

And so she put a lot of stock in this trip to England. She was just trying to find herself. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, man. I can't imagine, but honestly, I think of all the things, I can't imagine what I was really feeling when I was like six years old and she left, but of all the things now that still hurt, the fact that she went to England was, is the thing that hurts by far the most because I don't know.

I just, I don't know how, I don't know how you, it really hurts that she just like completely abandoned me, you know, like the fact that she just totally left, I can deal with you, like trying your best and like still failing because you're an alcoholic or whatever, but like going to England really, really hurt me.

She was there for

Joey (2): years.

Ben: Yeah, she was there for, I'm pretty sure like a couple of years. Um, and when she came back, you know, it was just, she, I think she just. [00:33:00] Really wanted everything to be okay between me and her and I wanted everything to be really okay between me and her so what happened was After she came back from england.

It was like I Was kind of almost like afraid that if I wasn't there all the time She was just gonna leave again, right like if I Wasn't the perfect son That she was just gonna get out. So, there was a time where, you know, I was like probably, when I got back, I was probably around 8 or 9. And, from then until I was like, you know, in the 8th grade, so probably about 4 or 5 years.

She had just like a string of just like really horrible boyfriends. Like horrible boyfriends. Also alcoholics and they would fight verbally, physically, um, I had to call [00:34:00] my dad. I was like 10. I was like, had having to call my dad to like, take me home. These were like, can be my like visitation weekends. You know, I was like, dad, I'm fighting.

I really got to go. I think I tried to call the police one time because they were hitting each other there was just like it was really some some really awful situations and but I still just was putting a lot of responsibility on myself to like stick it out with her and once I got into You know, pre, you know, like very young adulthood and I was driving like I put ticket upon myself to like Take her to meetings and even though I could now like not spend the weekends with her because I was like, you know There's just nothing stopping me from

Joey: yeah

Ben: from not showing up I just still did it because I was like, yeah, I kind of hate this but I [00:35:00] don't want to be abandoned again, right?

I just want to hopefully this would become something good. And so, you know, that was really my mom's life for like a really just long time was she would, and you know, she would like go to rehab. And I think she had something like 13 rehab stints in her lifetime. Like, It was kind of crazy how many times, and um, So that was just like, our relationship was really marked a lot by that kind of thing.

Where I was trying really, really hard to be the perfect son, And it was just putting me in a lot of like, emotionally abusive situations and everything like that. My dad Was and I think really is the reason why I didn't just completely explode during this time My dad was a really good man Is a really good man, and I think during that time was incredibly supportive of me and understood everything And tried to, [00:36:00] really tried to help me, like, process all of it.

And, I mean, he was my rock during, during that time for sure. So, I think that once I, that was like, basically what characterized me and my mom's relationship for a long time. Was like, she was just spiraling out of control, and making very little headway in any way. And I was just like, always there, no matter what happened, no matter how much she, you know, no matter how many inappropriate things she did or whatever, like I was just there trying to, trying to help her, and I think it finally started dawning on me how bad things were, how like inappropriate that relationship was, like when I got it.

Really only when I got married. Yeah, I myself got married and I was talking to Chrissa and she was like, babe This is really messed up. Like she was able to take like a An outsider's perspective and be like, this is completely [00:37:00] inappropriate. Like you, you need to like do something about the way she, I think one, one time I was talking to my mom and I told her like, I can't take you to the grocery store right now.

Cause my mom was never able to drive basically ever because of all the DUIs and everything. And she. Just got really mad and yelled at me and just said something like really nasty to me And I was like, well, there goes mom and Chris was like no, dude that's like it's a verbal abuse is what that's called and yeah, and you're not just like It is not just like a there goes mom type situation.

It is like a really bad thing, you know

Joey (2): Yes, I was having a bad day or like Inconsequential comment hair there. It's like a clear trend and serious

Ben: Yeah, and it's like things that, that you wouldn't ever say to anybody, let alone your son, you know, so sadly, I mean, when, when I was a couple years after I got married, I told her, I was like, listen, mom, I just [00:38:00] can't keep having this relationship with you.

I, I want you to be good, but like, I am not actually helping you be good by continuing to be in this, like, to have this, like, relationship. And I just, I gotta step out. And for all of my mom's weaknesses, one of the things that she was, she was, like, weirdly, really smart and really educated and really understanding.

And I think that she actually was able to totally see what I was going through and say, Okay. So she had dealt with that fairly well. Um, we had a daughter and right around the time that my, we had a daughter, my mom had like a serious, like psychotic break, a series of six serious psychotic breaks. And she also was diagnosed with cancer.

So she was also, she was a lifelong smoker, but she also had. Like, lymph node problems. Like, she had like, uh, She would always have like, she had [00:39:00] some hormonal stuff, and she was always a smoker, so she got like, lymphoma. Which is actually like a fairly mild form of cancer. So, she had this incredible, like, this very serious psychotic break, and then she got cancer, and I was in Alabama with Focus, so it's like, at that point, I was still, I was trying to, Call her every, every week because it was just like, all right, you're clearly, it was just a totally different situation, you know, like, and, and so I think the last time I saw her in like 20, you know, 16, probably 2017.

Shortly after that time, like in 2017, I was like, I can't really talk to you very much. We had my daughter in 2018. So like 2017 was like the last time I had really spoken to her. And then in 2021 or 2022, so like four or five years later, That was the next time that I saw her. [00:40:00] And so that's like five years.

She had had like a, a fairly, a fair bit of success recovering from like the psychotic breaks. She had a stable housing situation. My aunt Gina was kind of. Working harder to ensure that she had like a fairly stable situation and then yeah, so I was with, I was able to like, she was able to meet her grandchildren, which was really nice.

Um, and it was, it was a really nice day. We, we went to. the park. We went to like a nature center in Ohio where she lives and she bought Magdalene and Jack, my oldest son, um, these little stuffed animals that we still have. And we spent about three hours together and then we left to go home, whatever. And then I saw her again in 2022, like early in the year.

So it was like 2021 brought the fam up. Everybody met mom. [00:41:00] She's doing okay. You know, And then the next year I went to, like, an IHOP with her, and, uh, that was ultimately the last time I talked to her, and she seemed like she was doing okay, and then, yeah, it was just later that year in August, uh, my son had just been baptized, but her cancer spread to the, her esophagus, and so she had esophagus cancer now.

And basically the cancer ate a hole through her esophagus. So not to get like too, too gross, but whenever she was swallowing food or water, some of it was getting in her lungs. So I was, it was like, my son, Simon was getting baptized and she called me right before the baptism and she said, I'm going in, like, literally I was outside.

In my suit, mass had just ended, the baptism was starting in like 10 minutes. She called, she said, Hey, I'm, I'm going to the surgery, um, everything's gonna be alright, whatever. And I was like, okay, but, you know, just call a priest, like, make sure a priest comes. Like, [00:42:00] don't go into that surgery without a priest, you know?

And she said yes. I'm calling the priest like I want to get last rites. I want that to be a thing. So then I went in and we baptized Simon and then we came home after the baptism and I'm like, okay I have no idea what's happening with my mom like don't don't know we were having like the baptism party and I got a call from the doctor and the doctor was basically like There's nothing we can do, you know.

Uh, there was a complication in the surgery that happened. She was losing a ton of blood. They tried to stabilize her. Anytime they took her off the machine, she started to destabilize quickly. He was like, there's just, there's nothing we can do. Your, your mom is going to die. The most that we can do is like, keep her alive until tomorrow so that you can get up here.

And I said, alright, I'll, I'll go. You know, so I, I like, I went downstairs to the baptism party, just like sobbing. And I was like, sorry guys, you guys can keep eating food, but I'm just going to go for a walk. [00:43:00] And, um, and I went to, and she died the next day. Um, all of her family was there, me, my half brother was there at one point, she like kind of woke up because they had her heavily sedated while she was dying so that she wouldn't feel any pain.

And so that it just like, wouldn't she wouldn't complicate anything. But one time the sedatives kind of just like, weren't strong enough and she kind of woke up and we were like, Oh gosh, this is terrifying. Um, but she like looked over and it was just me and my brother. And so me and my brother were the last things that she saw.

Um, before she passed away and, um, that was a very powerful moment for me, I think of just like, everything is okay. Like the whole family is here. And the last thing that she encountered was that we were there, you know, that we, despite everything, we still loved her and that me and my [00:44:00] brother recognized that we were still her sons and that she was still our mom, you know, um, that was really powerful.

And I think it was just a. A good moment to like just try to end with harmony rather than disharmony, you know, so that's kind of the the story of what our relationship, you know, and how it how it ended. And, um, I'm really fortunate that it ended that way. You know, there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that our, the whole family would have been together for all of that, you know, um, and, and I don't want to make it seem like she was like, apparently, you know, my brother helped clean out her apartment.

And like, she was apparently still drinking and everything like that. Like, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a fairy tale. Like my mom got better and everything was fine kind of ending, but it was something, you know, it was something good resolution.

Joey (2): Yeah. Some resolution. No. Wow. That

Ben: was, that was really long.

And I'm sorry if that was, yeah. Too much, but

Joey (2): no, you're good. I mean, honestly, it's like, it takes a bit to pull up all those [00:45:00] memories and think like, let me just summarize my relationship with my mom in like two minutes. It's a hard thing to do. So no, I appreciate you being so vulnerable on that. Yeah, man, I'm really sorry for everything you've been through.

And more than that, it's like, yeah, that hurts. It's uh, yeah, what a rough thing to go through. But, but I admire you for, I mean, a bunch, there's a lot of lessons and everything you just said. But, um, especially just like kind of ending with peace and harmony and trying to bring some sort of resolution out of like a really broken situation.

So I admire that. I also, um, I think there's a lesson in the whole fact that Carissa was able to kind of come alongside you as an objective kind of third party and say, Hey, this isn't okay. Like this relationship isn't good for you. And then the result of that from what you said was that you put some boundaries in place where you said, Hey, I can't continue having this type of relationship in my life.

And so I think there's something in that. I remember having a similar conversation with my dad when he was in a tough spot and kind of treating people acting out in a way that I like didn't agree with. And I kind of felt like I was [00:46:00] tacitly approving that if I were to just continue as if like, Hey, nothing, nothing's bad, nothing's going on.

So I remember having a conversation with him. I didn't want to just go with Sim. So I had a conversation and say, Hey dad, I love you. I want a relationship with you. As long as like. Your behavior is like this, that's not possible, but as soon as I see signs that it's changing, like, I'd love to resume that, restart that relationship.

And so I think, um, that, that was like really big for me and it sounds like it was similar for you. So yeah, there's a couple other lessons in there, but yeah, feel free to comment on any of that. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed. To help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Ben: Well, yeah, I think that, you know, your goal with, I [00:47:00] think anybody. It should be that you want to have some kind of harmony with that person. Like, you want to have a, a harmonious relationship. And, if you just ghost somebody, like that's, you're not working towards harmony, you're just increasing the discord.

You know, and I don't think that that's just I don't think that that is the the right way to go about it Um, I think that it's could take some courage I mean and I can imagine there are probably some situations maybe where you need to just like, you know Get the heck out and not worry about it. Like I'm assuming that things are like relatively safe, you know If there's like some serious unsafety, like, I can totally see, like, if you think you're gonna get hurt, like, there's, you can talk later, like, get out, you know?

Joey (2): Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point. Or, or if you think, like, the reaction's gonna be so strong that it might be, you know, dangerous in that scenario, or maybe not even dangerous, it would just be like, [00:48:00] Overwhelming then I think there are other ways you can maybe break that news or communicate that like a letter That's what I do with my dad.

I knew like doing a face to face wouldn't have gone super well Yeah, we wrote a letter explaining things. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that in.

Ben: I think the letter is also Also good. I call I called my mom. I mean I was in alabama So like she wasn't we weren't gonna have a face to face conversation, but yeah, yeah, I think that um All i'm trying to say is like in some way for the most part.

I think that you want to act in a way that is At least working towards harmony rather than actively undermining any chance of harmony in the future, you know, that would be my perspective.

Joey (2): Yeah, I like that. But Krista

Ben: was, I mean, Krista was absolutely instrumental in helping me understand what's happening and what I needed.

And it was also, I mean, marriage itself, like, for a long time, I was kind of skeptical of marriage in general. I was skeptical that I would ever be able to be married, um, because it was Just like, well, the one marriage that I've [00:49:00] seen ended pretty poorly, but I ended up getting to know a lot of really solid families who were very committed.

And I think that getting to know those solid families who were committed and who were not divorced and were raising beautiful families helped me realize that I could do it. And so then when I finally did it, and I like, got, got into that committed relationship and got married, it was like, it was just kind of like a.

Magnifying glass on all of the little like things that I had picked up from my mom, you know, like all of these bad habits that I had picked up from being in a divorced house, you know, um, and especially the bad habits that I picked up from having like a emotionally verbally abusive mom, you know, just like the whenever we would get into a, if we would like a person, I would start having an argument and my cursor would be just like, she would just like start to leave the room.

Okay. Like, not even in like a mad way, just like, uh, I gotta go do something. It was just like, no, don't go [00:50:00] to England, you know, just like, no, stay right here, like, I do not want to let you out of my sight, because, like, you're not leaving, I'm not gonna let you leave, the way that my mom left, like, that's not happening.

Um, so. Yeah, that's kind of, that's just like one of the sort of, I guess, typical things that I kind of had to deal with as, um, I was entering into my marriage and becoming a father and stuff.

Joey (2): No, I appreciate you sharing that. And I've noticed, you know, just the whole fact that we kind of reenact, we replay the things from our past and especially like the behavior we observed in our parents, because as humans, we just kind of bear the behavior behind, around us, unless we're like very intentional.

But even if we are very intentional, we just end up mirroring the behavior behind us, around us. It's like, we just have to surround ourselves with people who we want to mirror. That's essentially it. But um, But no, I think there's like such wisdom in that of like, the lesson I took away is like, you, you know, as much as you're able to like, Spend time with surround yourself [00:51:00] with healthy marriages and families like there's a lot of good It was really helpful for me growing up too because I was the same I was super skeptical marriage I remember I swore after my parents split I'm like, I will never get married like that I would not want to be a part of this if this is where marriage leads like yeah But I want to go down that path and so so I think that that was like really huge for me and I love yeah I think one lesson too for everyone listening if you you know, if you're not In a dating relationship, or you're not engaged, married, um, or maybe even that person, your significant other, like, isn't the one who can maybe be the objective party, I think there is something to be said for, like, finding a mentor.

Finding, you know, maybe it's a relative. Maybe it's a therapist. Maybe it's, you know, just someone in your life. It could be a friend who can just kind of be that objective third party and just say like, you know, maybe you confide in them and say, hey, here's the relationship that I have with like mom or dad or whatever person.

Does this seem like healthy to you? And if not, then they can maybe help say, no, it doesn't seem healthy. And I think, you know, the Might be a space for putting in boundaries so that you can eventually have a healthy relationship. And I, I think it's something I always try to remember too, is [00:52:00] that boundaries are not just, they, they feel mean sometimes, but they're really always ordered towards having a healthy relationship.

Having a healthy relationship.

Ben: And I think like when I did, I mean, when I talked to my mom and I was talking about putting up this boundary, I was like, the only hope for us to have a good relationship is if. We take a step back, you know, like that is it and I totally agree with you I mean you said you mentioned that like when your parents split you were like i'm just never getting married i'm done with it And do you know the paramour song the only exception have you ever heard that song?

It's been

Joey (2): a minute, but I do It's

Ben: like that exact story She's like my daddy was awful and my mom left him and I told swore that I would never love but you're the only exception It's a really cute song. Um, but anyway It's neither here nor there. You said that you really, like, did not want to be, you know, in a married relationship.

I was, like, the opposite. I was, like, I just, I really, really, really, really want to find the one. And I was, like, kind of, like, a serial monogamist in high school. Um, I'm [00:53:00] using that word correctly, where I would just, like, sort of hop from girlfriend to girlfriend, and, like, every single girlfriend was the one.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Uh, but I think what I realized on self reflection is that I undermined a ton of those relationships because even though I really wanted to be married I just like was super scared of it and didn't know Didn't think it was possible and didn't really know what it looked like and it was Absolutely the mentors in my life that helped me understand what it was like to be in a healthy relationship, you know So absolutely, I think The most important thing to do if you in that kind of situation is to find, find somebody who is a good family, find somebody who has a good marriage and just like, hang out with them all the time and not be afraid to like, There was one family in Ohio, the Kesslers, who I think I spent, when I was in high school, there were probably [00:54:00] times where I spent just as much time at their house than I did at mine, just because like, they were a solid family.

And they, their parents were together. And like, you know, once you spend enough time with the family, you see that they have struggles, but I just like wanted to absorb every last little tiny bit of goodness from them and like, learn from it and be able to internalize it. And I think they were really, like, a huge turning point for, for me in my life, where, like, I was able to actually have a good relationship, you know?

After that, so really, really recommend that kind of stuff.

Joey (2): I love that. And I know we're toward the end of our time together. But, um, yeah, I was curious. Were there any particular instances where that really hit you or was just more of like a sum of the whole of like, yeah, this has just been a great experience knowing them, spending time around them, seeing how the parents.

Oh,

Ben: yeah. I don't know. I mean. I think that it was just, I, I can't think of a single moment where I was like, Oh, this is what a real family is like. I mean, I, I got super into their [00:55:00] family. Like they were, you know, it was, it was really awesome. It was, they like quasi adopted me. And there were, there were other families too.

Like I had family, one family in particular, growing up where it was the same situation where they just really. Brought me in and had a huge heart for me because they knew all of the difficulties I was going through But I mean if I can imagine if I can remember anything like there was one night where there's like a Thanksgiving and I like Came over for Thanksgiving dinner and had Thanksgiving dinner with them after my family's and then like I stayed to watch Christmas vacation with them because they watch Christmas vacation every Thanksgiving and I'm pretty sure I stayed the night to probably and You know, like, the girls in the family were like my little sisters, and the boys were like my brothers, and it was just like, this is it, like, this, this is what I want, and it was just really helpful to be able to be like, it is here, like, they do exist, like, like, Marriage, having a strong [00:56:00] family, having a good family is possible.

You know, it's just, just because it wasn't my experience growing up doesn't mean that I can't go on to create something like that.

Joey (2): So good. It's so hopeful. I love, I love this and yeah, there's so much more I want to say. But perhaps we'll kind of end on that. I, well, I do, I do want to hear a little bit just to tie it because I think people are probably wondering like, well, what about you personally, like your journey, your story?

So maybe we'll touch on that. There was something from your mom's story that I thought was really interesting, both her going to Britain and then also changing her name. It almost was like she had this desire to erase the past. I think a lot of us are there and to one degree or another where we've done things or have had relationships with things that was like, I'm not.

That's super proud of that. Even if it's not a major regret, maybe it is. I think we have this desire to like erase the past and I think what I kind of learned from you in this whole interview is like there's power in just kind of accepting it all, right? Accepting the good and the bad and kind of integrating that or I know it's kind of a big word, but just Just acknowledging that like, as people, like our identity is not just the good, but it also is the bad things that [00:57:00] we've done and it's kind of living with all that, you know, kind of coming to some level of peace and being able to say, okay, that was my past, but my future can be different.

Like I can live life differently.

Ben: Yeah.

Joey (2): I think that's like really, really powerful, but I think, I think a lot of people do have that desire to erase the past.

Ben: Yeah. I mean, that was, I mean, that's. You know, that was what my mom did like all the time. I mean,

Joey: yeah,

Ben: I think that yeah, like the the name change she's like I don't want to deal with anything that I have done like I want to be a totally different person and going to England was like I'm leaving America behind and I'm gonna go to like the land where my my true soul resides and and like start this new life and you know, she would always Bring up these narratives like with my brother particularly, you know, my brother didn't see my mom for a long time when he was kind of younger and my mom was always like, Oh, it's his dad's fault because his dad's a lawyer and she, he like manipulated the system.

And I [00:58:00] talked to my dad and my dad was like, listen, your brother just like, didn't really, I just like, didn't really want to go. You know, your brother didn't want to see your mom and I was just, yeah, you know, I, I think that she just had this need to like forget the past and for herself too. I mean, I remember I would say like, listen, I forgive you for all these things that you've done.

Why can't you just forgive yourself? And she was like, yeah, that's the hardest part. Like I, I don't know how to forgive you know, so she was definitely trying very hard to erase the past. And I think that coming to terms with what has happened is like a necessary part of healing for anybody, whether it's healing from alcoholism, or healing from trauma, or healing from your parents divorce, like, you just have to say, own that part of you, like, yep, that happened, I own it, it's mine, and I take ownership of it, and now I can build something better for the future.

I

Joey (2): think that that's really important. I love it. Because otherwise you're kind of stuck in the space of like, [00:59:00] yeah, totally hiding. Yeah, you're stuck in general, and then you're stuck also like hiding, you're stuck, okay. Yeah. Trying to race your shock trying to run from it and just it's this it's exhausting It's not the place that you want to be not the place you want to live So so good one thing I failed to ask at the beginning was how old are you now because you kind of give us a good Timeline of your life.

Oh,

Ben: yeah,

Joey (2): I am 30. So

Ben: yeah,

Joey (2): so your mom passed

Ben: when you were like 27 28 I was yeah, I was 28. I guess yeah, I just turned 28 when my mom passed away. Okay So yeah And then my parents divorced when I was five.

Joey (2): Okay. No, that's, that's helpful to say, have this headline. And the, let's see, the only final things I was just wondering is like, one, were there any other big ways in which you were affected, like struggles that kind of came out later?

Um, and then two, like, what helped you heal? What would you, and especially in the vein of like, what maybe other people can learn and apply to their own lives. So what was kind of the way in which you were affected beyond what you already mentioned? And then what was really helpful in order for you to heal that maybe other [01:00:00] people can learn from too.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I mentioned like the sort of like the serial monogamy, just like jumping from longterm relationship to longterm relationship, but feeling very afraid to like actually follow through with those commitments. A lot of stuff in marriage. I think personally, like the divorce and also like the things with my mom just really started like a precedent for um, A lot of problems with girls just in general, like just romantic problems in general, like trying to feel validated by them.

I know like pornography addiction was a big thing that popped up for me. I think that was just a huge way that I tried to feel validated by women and get some feminine of affirmation in my life was trying to get that through pornography and you know, I'm still. I'm actually still just uncovering layers of how my mom [01:01:00] contributed to those things, and how my parents divorce contributed to those things, but I'm also trying, I'm just realizing how deeply it is part of who I am, you know, and, um, I think, I mean, you know, I'm Catholic, so I think that the prayer Aspects and the sacraments like really help a lot have helped a lot like to open myself up to that grace and receive healing from somebody who has that power, you know, like, there's if you broke your arm, there's just like nothing you can do about it.

Like, if you have a cold or if you have. You know, you're like, just have various problems. You know, it's like, if you have a cold, right. There's things that you can do to make yourself better. Like you can eat lots of garlic and you can eat honey and you can rest, you know? But like, if you have like a broken arm, it's like, you got to go to the doctors.

And I think that a lot of the things that happened with my mom, it's, there are some things that I can do to heal. It's like, I can, you know, try to, I can go to [01:02:00] therapy. Um, I can. Evaluate my own means of communication and just communicate better with people I can try to change my daily habits I can try to change my mindset, whatever But there's just like some things that I just like ultimately can't change about me There's wounds that I can't do anything about and so I try to bring those to the divine physician and let him deal with it So that's been helpful and I think that I think that my relationship with my wife is just one of those things that Has brought so much healing to me It's these wounds.

She's great. And she's incredibly patient and just very loving to me Especially in the moments where I am feeling the most unlovable. So yeah I mean, she's the bomb and has helped me really I think work through so many of these different things So yeah, that's I think it's hard to pinpoint exactly. Oh, this was the most helpful thing I think it's like a whole cocktail of like good stuff that you have to

Joey (2): You have to do to heal, you know, yeah, [01:03:00] no, no silver bullet, only a hundred golden deep.

Ben: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a great, it's a great way of putting it. Yeah. I love that quote.

Joey (2): So good, man. Well, it's been such an honor to have you. The final thing I was just thinking of is just how we were talking about the different characters and movies and shows and stories, the villain, the hero.

You know, the, the guide and the victim. And I think the truth of our lives and we'd probably save your mom's life too, is that we're all those characters to one degree or another in everyday life, we can switch between them. And I think there's a lot of power in choosing, you know, to be the hero, the one who's like fighting for something that they want, something that's good and.

the guide who's helping other people get the things that are good in their lives too. And you know, no matter what you've been through, I think, you know, especially with God's grace, like you're capable of that, uh, to everyone listening. And so thank you for being such an awesome example and sharing so vulnerably with, with everyone about your story.

And I, um. Yeah, I did want you, if you would, tell us a little bit about the work that you do, because one of the things I admire about you is that you've [01:04:00] taken like all this pain, all this brokenness in your life, and now you're, you know, obviously doing work on yourself and trying to grow, but you're also trying to help other people grow, and especially grow in their relationship with God, which can be a struggle for so many people.

And so I'm curious if you would tell me, tell us a little bit about like the work that you do and how people can, you know, even find you online.

Ben: Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a missionary with Focus. FOCUS is acronym for the Fellowship of Catholic University Students. We were, we're an apostolate founded in 1998. And the basic goal of, of FOCUS is to spread the, the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Catholic faith through spiritual multiplication and through incarnational evangelization.

So those are big words. Basically, big fancy words for I, my job is really to like build personal relationships with people. I spend not a lot of my time giving big talks or like hosting big events. I spend a ton of [01:05:00] time getting to know people. on like a one on one basis or like a small group basis. And based on that, you know, trying to, to help them, winning them over to the, the gospel, trying to encourage them to discover who Jesus is, and then building, like encouraging them to pray, teaching them how to pray, praying with them.

And then also leading them with myself to, um, do the same for others, to bring them into relationships with God. My favorite part about, about being a missionary is That I get to invite people Basically into our family life, you know, like me and my wife have tons of people over for dinner all the time We have people over to our house All the time.

And so I like to imagine that I have done for somebody, or hopefully multiple people, what like the Kesslers were able to do for me, you know, like mentor people in how, what it is to be a good family. Uh, that's what I do. I have a, I have my own little focus page. You can sort of. Check out my bio [01:06:00] and find out more about my ministry if you go to focus.

org slash missionaries Slash Benjamin dash blue dot and we'll link to them the show notes to make yeah Yeah, and and of course, yeah, and I'd be happy to give my email address So yeah, that's basically my ministry and what I'm up to here and now I'm at a parish at st Agnes in Pennsylvania, and so that's My full time full time gig.

Joey (2): Love it. Thanks so much, man. And yeah, if you guys, especially those of you listening who know Ben, maybe you weren't aware of his story and the work that he's doing, um, definitely check out that web page. Um, if you feel moved to, um, no pressure, of course, uh, you can get in touch with him if you want to financially support him and his family to give him the ability to continue doing this work.

We'll link to that, that page in the show notes, but man, it's so good to have you. I really appreciate just all the, all the wisdom. I want to, um, yeah. Give you the last word and I'm going to end it a little bit different than I usually do. And I'd like to ask just like what advice or encouragement would you give to someone in particular who maybe their mom, their dad passed away?

There was a girl I, [01:07:00] after I gave a talk recently, a college student came up to me and she was just confiding me. Like there was a lot of like un left, unresolved, um, brokenness, trauma, like, you know, problems with her dad. And then he just passed away and she felt really stuck. Like, she couldn't do anything with it.

And so, um, I'm curious, yeah, if you have any advice for people in that situation, especially, because you, you've gone through this to some extent. Um, what advice would you give them? Like, what can they do, given that mom or dad are gone, and they do have that desire to, they feel like it's unfinished, it's unresolved, they want to bring some resolution to it.

Ben: Yeah, well, I think that I can think of, you know, maybe two, two pieces of advice, which You know, the first is from a faith standpoint, you know, between all of us and our parents, we have our relationships with our parents, but, you know, God is ultimately intimately involved in those relationships. So even if a parent has passed away, we still have a certain amount of [01:08:00] Ability to understand that story and interact with that story by believing that, that God is ultimately in control of it, that God is still in contact with our parents who have passed away, um, and also that we can, with God's help, understand the story of our lives.

Um, a little bit better. So that's, that's one thing, right? Just believe that through the Lord, we still have contact with our parents in some way. But from just like a, you know, a human, a human level, like a universally human level, I think that, A, one of the things that my therapist in college told me that was super important, Was that my healing does not depend on anybody else, right?

Like my healing, like I can take ownership of it. And so if you're in that situation where like your parent died and you didn't get any formal resolution with them. I would just suggest, like, you can still take ownership of that situation, you can still [01:09:00] take steps to find your own resolution, and I think that, like, some of the process that I did, like, going through the pictures, right, like, going through the home videos, a project that I have in the back of my head that I haven't done yet that I should really do is, I really want to, like, interview, quote unquote, quote, unquote, My mom's sisters because I think that that would give a lot of insight into my mom's life, you know Just like there are other ways there are other people there are other perspectives that you can get On your parent and I think getting those perspectives can really help move Move you along.

So that's my, that would be my final advice.

Joey (2): I really like the family photos and videos idea that the timeline tactic too was really helpful for me as a way to kind of heal and better understand my dad and what was going on in our family. But one other idea I wanted to mention, there was a girl after a talk I gave recently who shared that her dad had died recently and she never really got to resolve things with.

And so my advice [01:10:00] to her was just to write him a letter, just tell him all the things you wish you could tell him in person. And then she was religious, so I said, just place it in God's hands. And I didn't get a chance to speak with her after, but I really hope it went well. So those are a few tips for you if you want to, you know, try to find some closure, some healing.

If maybe one of your divorced or both of your divorced parents died and you never really got the closure that you deserve. I hope that helps. That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. If you want, we can actually post your story on our website as an anonymous blog article.

You can go to restoredministry. com story or click the link in the show notes to share your story. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow an Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show.

To people who are looking for help. And there's a lot of people who need help and it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback. And then it also helps us to reach more people who are looking for some help, uh, like we offer. And in closing, always remember.

You are not doomed to repeat your family's [01:11:00] dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#142: How to Break the Cycle of Your Broken Family

Has your parents’ divorce or broken family brought pain into your life? Do you fear repeating the cycle of dysfunction or divorce?

You’re not alone—millions face these often unspoken struggles: hidden wounds, emotional problems, broken relationships, and destructive habits. Thankfully, you’re not destined to repeat your family’s dysfunction. 

In this episode, you’ll hear a breakout talk from the SEEK25 conference where you’ll discover the two keys to breaking that cycle and learn actionable tips to build healthy relationships.

About the Speaker:

Endorsed by Jason Evert and Dr. Bob Schuchts, Joey Pontarelli has spoken across the U.S. and internationally.

He is the author of the book “It’s Not Your Fault” and hosts the podcast, “Restored: Helping Children of Divorce,” which has helped thousands of young people.

He has been a guest on EWTN’s TV and radio shows, Dr. Bob Schuchts’s “Restore the Glory” podcast, Jason Evert’s “Lust is Boring” podcast, and Relevant Radio’s “The Drew Mariani Show.”

Joey is married to Brigid, and they love life with their two kids, Lucy and John Paul.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] If you come from a divorced family, you're 103 percent more likely to get divorced than someone who comes from an intact family. But if you were to marry someone who also comes from a divorced family, that number goes up to 189%, almost 3x. And if you're like me, hearing all this can be a bit discouraging.

If you're like me, it can leave you feeling like the odds are against you. To the point where so many of us, we give up on love. We give up on marriage and we just settle for the counterfeit. Or if we do try to build love, we end up building unhealthy relationships, weak marriages, and broken families. And the cycle that we badly want to break gets repeated in our own lives.

And so what's the solution? I would propose to break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, two things are needed. One, we need to heal our brokenness. And two, we need to build virtue. Sounds simple, not as easy to do,~ but if we do that, then as healthy, virtuous people, we can go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages, and holy families.

~

Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panerelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help [00:01:00] you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. Question for you. Has your parents divorce or your broken family brought pain into your life?

Do you fear repeating that cycle of dysfunction and divorce? If so, you're not alone. There's millions of us who face these often unspoken struggles, hidden wounds, emotional problems, broken relationships, and destructive habits. Thankfully, you're not destined to repeat your family's dysfunction. In this episode, you'll hear a breakout talk that I gave at the SEEK25 conference, where you'll discover the two keys to breaking that cycle and learn actionable tips to build healthy relationships.

Now, if you're not familiar with the SEEK conference, it's a conference of 20, 000 people, mostly young people, mostly college students. And I had a Breakout session at that conference in a room of 2000. Now they actually had to cut off the line and not let more people into the room since so many people wanted to be there because of how relevant this topic is.

And we got a lot of solid feedback from the audience who with multiple people saying they took five pages of notes [00:02:00] that it was their favorite talk of the day or even the entire conference. And it was such an honor to build and deliver this talk for the college students at the conference. And so. If you're from a broken family, where things are just really dysfunctional, or maybe your parents are divorced or separated, this episode, this talk, is for you.

Now, I do mention God and faith a little bit in the talk, because the audience was primarily a Catholic Christian audience of college students. Now, if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast, so wherever you're at, I'm really glad you're here.

If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is just this. Listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. With that, here's the talk.

So good to be with you guys. Let's start with the prayer in the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Dear Jesus, I ask you to be here with us. Lord, speak through me so that what I say may be helpful. Give us all the graces we need to become saints, brokenness and build virtue so we can build the [00:03:00] healthy, beautiful relationships that you want us to build in our lives.

And we ask all this through your mother as we pray, Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, for through thy womb, Jesus, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and of our death, Amen. I send you humble and great, blessed pure Giorgio, and holy family, in the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

When my friend Mary was just a little girl, she would watch her parents fight all the time. Their marriage was a mess and they needed help, but they never got the help that they needed, and so the dysfunction just continued on for years. Fast forward to when Mary was in high school, her mom decided to divorce her dad.

And what honestly seemed like a solution to a really bad and messy situation just made things worse for Mary. It was just one trauma on top of another. Now up to that point, she didn't really act out. She just held her pain inside. But that all changed when she went to [00:04:00] college. She got into the party scene, she started drinking heavily.

That led to dating the wrong guy. She ended up marrying one of those guys who was a drug addict and alcoholic. And as you'd imagine, their marriage was a mess as well. That only led to more problems and more trauma. And eventually, she divorced her husband, repeating that cycle. And once the dust settled, she fell into a deep depression and started dealing with a lot of emotional problems.

Whenever I think of Mary, whenever I tell her story, I can't help but ask, could that have been avoided? Or was she somehow doomed to repeat? that cycle of dysfunction in her own life. Like Mary, I also come from a broken family. I'll never forget the day when my mom shared the news that dad would no longer be living with us.

In fact, they were getting divorced. As a 10 year old boy, I didn't know what to do with that news. I couldn't cope with it. And so I remember just hiding in the closet and crying. And sitting in the closet, I couldn't have put it in towards then, but it felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. I felt like I just wasn't good enough.

And in the months and years that followed, I dealt with all sorts of pain and problems, like emotional problems, anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger for me as a boy. [00:05:00] I dealt with bad habits. One of my buddies at the time introduced me to pornography, and so that became my drug of choice, my way of numbing the pain that I felt.

But the biggest area of my life in which I struggled was in my relationships. I remember after my parents split, swearing that I would never get married. Because if this is where love and marriage leads, why in the world would I want to go down that route? And so I was really afraid of love relationships.

And when it came my time to, you know, start dating and building love, I felt super lost. I felt really incompetent at it. But it wasn't really until high school when this whole fear of repeating the cycle. hit me in the face. I just started liking this great girl, like, good Catholic girl who I could see myself marrying one day.

But I was terrified that my relationship with this great girl would one day end the way that my parents marriage had. And so the question on my mind was, how do I avoid that? How do I not go down that path? But what I saw around me wasn't very encouraging. I knew well at least five families that were falling [00:06:00] apart going through a divorce.

Eventually, the studies I saw weren't much more helpful. One study found that if you come from a divorced family, you're 103 percent more likely to get divorced than someone who comes from an intact family. But if you were to marry someone who also comes from a divorced family, that number goes up to 189 percent according to this one study.

Almost 3x. And if you're like me, hearing all this can be a bit discouraging. If you're like me It can leave you feeling like the odds are against you. To the point where so many of us, we give up on love, we give up on marriage, and we just settle for the counterfeit. Or if we do try to build love, we end up building unhealthy relationships, weak marriages, and broken families.

And the cycle that we badly want to break gets repeated in our own lives. And so what's the solution? I would propose to break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, two things are needed. One, we need to heal our brokenness. And two, we need to build virtue. It sounds simple, not as easy to do, but if we do that, [00:07:00] then as healthy, virtuous people.

We can go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages, and holy families. And you guys, this is so doable. I've seen it. I've seen really beautiful couples where one or both of the spouses come from broken families, and they're working hard with God's grace to build really beautiful marriages and families.

And that's what I'm working on in my life as well. Thankfully what you heard of my story wasn't the end of it. I was able to, you know, just work through a lot of healing and building virtue to the point where I no longer struggle with bigger, constant emotional problems. I was able to get porn outta my life and start living a pure life with the help of Jason Everett.

And when it came to my relationships, it definitely didn't happen overnight, but I was able to work through a lot of the fears and struggles and insecurities to the point where I was able to pursue my wife. We were able to get married, start a family. I want to introduce you guys to my family. That's Bridget, my wife.

Uh, that's Lucy, our daughter. She's three. And that's John Paul, who's, uh, six months old. He's, he's here right now. Bridget and John Paul are actually here right now. So we've been married. Thank you. [00:08:00] Thank you. We've been married almost seven years now. And I'll be honest with you guys. Marish has been hard for me, but it's definitely been good for me and has made me a better man.

And I absolutely love being a dad. Like I freaking love being a dad. It's so good. I want to show you more pictures of the kids. So this is Lucy at a local farm nearby. They have this thing called farm school. So she literally goes to farm school. It's the cutest thing. This is a picture of her there.

That's Jean Paul. He's actually in training to become the next James Bond. Couldn't tell. But absolutely love. I love being a dad and I say all that not to brag, God deserves the credit, but just to show you guys like if someone like me can do it, like you guys can certainly do it. And so in this talk, you're not going to get a lecture from someone with a PhD or a psychologist.

That's not me. But just a few really practical tips that have been super helpful for me in my life. And so some of those practical tips are going to be just on how to heal. [00:09:00] We're also going to talk about how to build virtue, because once we've done that, that enables us to love better. And then we're going to talk about the three relationships I think that are most impacted by coming from a broken family, our relationship with our parents, we're going to talk about romantic relationships, and then we're also going to talk about our relationship with God.

And so we have a lot to cover. Um, but does that all sound helpful? Then let's dive in. Before I dive in, I just want to tell you guys, there's a lot of, uh, resources that I'll mention if you guys want to go deeper. Uh, at the end of the talk, there will be a way for us to just email you all those resources in case you don't want to spend the whole talk writing things down.

So I'll tell you at the end, uh, how to do that. When it comes to healing, where do we start? Just like in the medical world, I think we first need to start by diagnosing our emotional wounds. For so many of us, we're kind of a mystery to ourselves, right? We don't really understand why we think, feel, and act the way that we do.

But what controls so much of our behavior is our subconscious, right? Especially the untreated wounds within our [00:10:00] subconscious. The Swiss psychologist Carl Jung said it this way, he said, unless you make the subconscious It will rule your life, and you will call it fate. Unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life, and you will call it fate.

That act of making the subconscious conscious is self knowledge. That's where healing begins. But it doesn't stop there. Self knowledge leads to self awareness in our relationships and everyday situations. Self awareness leads to self mastery in the way that we think and the way that we act. And self mastery is meant to lead to self gift.

So essentially we grow in self knowledge so we can increase our capacity to love. That's the goal of healing. The goal of healing is not some sort of perfection, it's not creating some sort of utopia in which you never suffer again, that's not realistic. The goal of healing is really becoming more virtuous, becoming like Jesus, and being freer to love.

And so we're going to talk about relationships later, like I said, but we have to start here with healing. And so to grow in self knowledge, it's really helpful to hear what researchers have found [00:11:00] about how divorce affects the children. So they found that children of divorce are more likely to struggle with things like social problems, behavioral problems, they're more likely to struggle in their relationship with their parents, in romantic relationships, they're less likely to get married, less likely to have children, more likely to get divorced, like we discussed, they're at higher risk for suicidal attempts.

More health problems, more emotional problems, and lower self esteem. Dr. Judith Wallerstein was one of the researchers who worked on this problem for many, many years. She studied children who were divorced for 25 years at UC Berkeley. Two main takeaways from her research. One, she said the full effects from your parents divorce actually aren't experienced until adulthood.

She called it the sleeper effect. It doesn't mean you're not affected beforehand, but she found in her research has the full effects, the most serious effects come out about college age and beyond. The second thing she said was the biggest area of your life that's impacted by your parents divorce is your romantic relationships, especially your future [00:12:00] marriage.

But perhaps you're thinking, Joey, my parents divorce was pretty civil, right? They weren't throwing cats and plates at each other. It was pretty civil. Dr. Paul Amato is a researcher at Penn State. He's a sociologist there who studied children of divorce for many, many years. He says that when marriages end in divorce, they typically fall into one of two categories, high conflict or low conflict.

He says high conflict means that the problems within the marriage are very overt and obvious to the children. It might include things like abuse, violence, a lot of bad conflict, and a lot of just visible dysfunction. He says less than 30 percent of divorces actually fit within this category. On the other hand, we have low conflict, which means the problems within the marriage are more covert.

They're more hidden from the children. And he says that more than 70 percent of divorces actually fit within this category. And so a model says that low conflict divorces are typically the most traumatic to the children. Seems kind of [00:13:00] counterintuitive. Why is that? In high conflict families, the situation itself is traumatic.

And while a divorce can certainly be even more traumatic, it can add to the trauma. Typically, the children do benefit from some sort of a separation as a protective measure. It's kind of the lesser of two really bad options, even though, as a church, we'd say, the goal is to heal the family and bring the marriage back together.

But in low conflict families, right, things seem to be fine to the children until they're not. And then the parents separate, and it brings a lot of confusion, a lot of pain, a lot of trauma into their life. But why are divorce and these high conflict families so traumatic? Here's why. Each child deserves their mother, their father, and stability that is built upon their love.

But so often what happens in these situations is that our parents love for each other usually vanishes. We're often physically and emotionally left without mom, without dad, or maybe without both. And as a result, instability reigns [00:14:00] within our families and even within ourselves. Divorce is especially traumatic because it's truly the death of a family.

We don't talk about that a lot in our culture, but it's truly the death of a family. And so if you've struggled, if you felt hurt because of what you've been through, to me it makes perfect sense. One girl told me, she's like, Joey, after my parents separated, like, it was super painful for me. Everyone at school knew my parents had separated, and everyone acted like it wasn't a big deal.

In fact, some people maybe just said, oh, it's for the best, everyone's happier. And she said, it was so confusing to me, because it was so painful for me, that it led me to think, maybe something's wrong with me for feeling this way. But the Austrian psychiatrist, Viktor Frankl, had the perfect response to this.

He said, an abnormal response to an abnormal situation, Is a normal behavior. In other words, there's nothing wrong with her with you for feeling that way. Your pain, your struggles make sense given what you've been through. Now while that validation is helpful and even healing, what are some other things that we can do [00:15:00] in order to heal?

I want to share four tips that you can start immediately. That have helped me. One, engage your story. Each of us has a story as if it were a novel or a movie and to engage your story means to reflect on it in an active and constructive way, especially to reflect on the relationships that formed us and nothing forms us more than our relationship with our parents.

And neurobiologists have actually found that this act of reflecting on your story is healing on a neurobiological level. They say that one measure of brain health is neural connectivity. Think of your brain as a web of neurons. The more connection between the neurons, the healthier your brain is. This act of reflecting on your story increases neural connectivity, thereby making your brain healthier and making you healthier.

If you take that a step further And share your story with someone who can receive it with empathy, like a competent therapist, a good friend, maybe a mentor. That's also healing on a neurobiological level. Next, write about emotionally significant events in your life. Dr. James [00:16:00] Penbaker and his wife, early in their marriage, they were really doubting that they should have gotten married at all.

And he was, he was really struggling in particular. He was super depressed, lonely, and he would kind of lock himself alone at his house. And at one point he just decided to start writing about everything that he was experiencing. Just no filter. He did that for three days. After those three days, something amazing happened.

His depression just left him. And so he spent the rest of his career studying this link between writing and healing, writing and emotional processing. And what he'd do in his research is you take a group of people, he'd split them into two. He'd say, group number one. You guys just write about emotionally significant events in your life, things that have been painful and emotionally heavy to you.

Group number two, you guys just write about mundane, everyday things like your shoes, the weather, whatever. Just do it for four days, for 20 minutes each day, that's it. After doing tons of these studies, they found that the people who wrote about the emotionally significant events in their lives were healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, had higher quality relationships, [00:17:00] better memory, and more success at work, among other things.

And apparently there's been thousands of studies to confirm these findings. Now Dr. Penbaker, he actually has books to guide you through those writing exercises. It's not the same thing as like, mindless journaling, and those books have been super helpful for me. We can send you links to those in that email I mentioned.

Find someone to guide you. Dr. Gaber Mate, who speaks and writes a lot about trauma, said this, Trauma is not what happens to us, but what we hold inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so in order to heal, we need an empathetic witness. We need a guide. And so I'd encourage you guys find a competent therapist, find a trained spiritual director, find just wise mentors in your life who can guide you because healing happens in relationships, right?

Healing happens in relationships. Love. is the antidote to trauma. And I've personally benefited from like 15 years of spiritual direction, then seven years of counseling. And I, I'd have to say that the most healing that I've ever [00:18:00] experienced aside from my relationship with God has been in these mentor relationships.

So I definitely encourage you guys to do that. And it's especially helpful to, uh, if you're dealing with maybe heavy emotional problems like anxiety, depression, or maybe, you know, an addiction, something like that. And if you need help finding someone, we have some recommendations through my apostolate.

And finally, ask God to heal you. All these healing tactics that I'm talking about, these human healing tactics, they're good. They're helpful. But eventually we're going to hit a ceiling. God can heal us in ways that we can never heal ourselves. And so we need his grace, his life inside of us. But since, you know, here at Seek, you guys are getting so many good talks by people way smarter than me on spiritual growth, spiritual formation.

I'm not going to go too deep into it, but just one tip that's been helpful for me, adoration. Adoration has been so helpful in healing for me. When you're there, I just encourage you guys to say this simple prayer, Lord, I want to be well. Lord, I want to be well. And then let Jesus as the divine physician do his slow work of healing.

All right. So in summary, we need to heal so we don't repeat that cycle of dysfunction and divorce, but that's only half of the equation, [00:19:00] right? We need to very intentionally build virtue as well. But how do we build virtue? In essence, like virtue means building good habits and breaking the bad ones, right?

We all know that. But a few tips that have been really helpful for me, one, develop emotional agility. So often when we feel pain, when we feel difficult emotions in our lives, we turn to sin as a quick fix. Just like I turned to porn, right, to numb my pain, even though it was damaging my soul, and it was destroying my ability to love.

That's why we need to learn how to properly navigate our emotions, which isn't an easy thing to do, but Dr. Susan David from the Harvard Medical School says to do that, we need to develop what's called emotional agility. Emotional agility is the ability to feel and face your emotions. We're not ignoring them, we're not stuffing them away, we're not denying them, we're feeling them and facing them.

And then choosing your response. In a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs. We would essentially call that virtue. One tip she shares to do that is to create a space [00:20:00] between stimulus and response. Again, she quotes Viktor Frankl, who I quoted earlier. He said that between stimulus and response, there is a space.

In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response, lies our growth and our freedom. I'm going to say that again. Between stimulus, the thing that makes us feel something, and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.

Essentially what we need to do is we need to lengthen that space. We need to pause, we need to slow down, we need to take a deep breath and detach from the intensity of the emotions so we can choose our response with our minds. Next, fill your human needs. So often we fall into vice, we fall into sin because we're not filling our legitimate human needs.

I've seen this again and again in my own life, and it's kind of tempting, I think, to over spiritualize this stuff, but I think it's this simple. If we take care of our human needs, we're going to remove so much temptation. And so we need to take care of ourselves in four areas. Our bodies need good sleep.[00:21:00]

College kids aren't great at that, but our bodies need good sleep, right? We need seven to eight hours according to, to the expert. I wasn't good at that as a college student, I should say. So seven to eight hours, good quality sleep. We need good nutrition. We didn't unprocessed clean foods, right? And half a gallon to a gallon of water every single day.

And we need exercise. We need movement. Walking is a great place to start. There's a lot of good research behind that. But eventually there's more and more research coming out that says like weightlifting is so good for you, especially as you age, it helps you stay young. Our souls need God's grace, right?

God's life inside of us, which we primarily get through the sacraments, through a deep interior life and through good deeds. But we also need experiences of goodness, truth, and beauty. And it's not just limited to church, right? We need it with our friends in nature, through music, stories, the list goes on.

Our hearts need intimacy, right? We need relationships. We need people to love and people to love us. And our minds need challenges, essentially. We need to learn new things and have new experiences. And so my question to you guys would be like, what's just one area where maybe you're lacking a little bit?

Make a simple plan to just [00:22:00] start improving there. Next, practice the virtues. The Catechism says that to be virtuous We have to learn the virtues and then practice them very deliberately, just like we'd practice any sort of skill. When it comes to learning the virtues, I'd probably just recommend Father Mike Schmitz's Catechism in a Year, especially the parts on virtue, you'll learn a lot there, but for hacks on practicing the virtues, I highly recommend actually a secular book, which you guys have probably heard of, uh, called Atomic Habits.

Atomic Habits by James Clare, great book, and in it, he breaks down the four parts of a habit. And this is super helpful if you want to build virtue to know these things. First is the cue, then the craving, then the response, then the reward. I'll explain each. The cue triggers your brain to initiate a behavior.

The craving is the desire that you have for the reward. The response is the actual habit, the behavior you perform. And the reward is, of course, the satisfaction you get from the habit. Now imagine that you maybe have the habit of grabbing your [00:23:00] phone every time it buzzes, right? Buzzes with maybe a notification for a text message, let's say.

The cue is your phone buzzing with the new text message. The craving is that you want to know what the text says. The response is you grabbing your phone and reading the text message. And the reward is that you feel satisfied now knowing what the text message says. But let's say you want to break that habit.

James Clear says that you need to do one or more of these things. He said, make the cue invisible. unattractive, make the response difficult, make the reward unsatisfying. So in our example of grabbing the phone, I think the easiest and simplest switch would be to make the cue invisible, turning off all of your text message notifications maybe, or just putting your phone on do not disturb during certain hours.

That's how to break a bad habit, right? To build a good habit, he says make the cue obvious, Make the craving attractive, make the response easy, and make the [00:24:00] reward satisfying. And we can talk about more of what that looks like during the Q& A if you guys want to. But one more tip from the book, the two minute rule.

The two minute rule is where you perform any habit that you're trying to build for just two minutes and then you stop. And do this for a period of time. In the book, he tells a story about one guy who would go to the gym. He really struggled exercising, so he'd go to the gym and perform a two minute workout, that was it, and then he'd leave.

He did that enough times to where he got in the habit of going to the gym and working out, then he started doing full length workouts. Within a year, it sounds kind of silly, right? But within a year or so, he lost a hundred pounds. Next, refuse to be a victim. One of the biggest barriers that I see to building virtue is victim mentality, right?

It's something that's really plaguing our society right now. Building virtue requires a ton of action, but victim mentality keeps us feeling stuck, feeling powerless, waiting for someone to rescue us and do the work for us. One guy who absolutely destroyed victim [00:25:00] mentality is a guy by the name of Ryan Jobe.

Ryan Jobe was a Navy SEAL. He fought in the Middle East and Iraq, and one day when they were clearing buildings, he got hit in the face with a sniper's bullet. He survived, but he would never again see. He was completely blind. Absolutely devastating. What Ryan could have done As he could have been totally debilitated by his wounds.

He could have just given up. He could have just remained a victim, because he truly was a victim in that situation. But he refused. He said, losing my vision will not stop me from living a good and meaningful life. And so as a blind man, he did some incredible things. He summited Mount Rainier. If you guys aren't familiar, Mount Rainier is a mountain out in Washington State.

It's 14, 000 feet high, not an easy climb. Every year on average, like one to two people die climbing Mount Rainier. He did it as a blind man. He trained for a triathlon, he earned his bachelor's degree and got a 4. 0, he successfully hunted an elk as a blind man, he married his girlfriend, and they had a baby together.

Two lessons I learned from him. One, his pain. Became a [00:26:00] catalyst for growth instead of a barrier to it. And I think the difference between Ryan and people who just give up is that he's simply standing on top of his pain and his problems instead of being crushed by them. Next, Ryan was so resilient. I think the reason he was so resilient is because he did hard things, right?

Obviously as a seal, he was like constantly doing hard things, but he suffered in those smaller ways so that he can handle that big suffering. And so we need to do the same. And so I actually challenge you guys this week at seek. Take the stairs. Take a cold shower. Like if that's kind of intimidating, one thing that I've done is do 30 seconds of like cold water at the beginning of your shower or 30 seconds at the end.

Give up social media for the week. You know, do a hard exercise. Don't kill yourself, but do a hard exercise. Just do hard things, get tough. But one of the biggest areas of bad habits for people like us is in unwanted sexual behavior. Dr. Patrick Carnes, an expert on sexual addiction, he found that 87 percent of people who struggle with a [00:27:00] sexual addiction come from a broken family.

Almost nine out of ten. I learned that from Jay Stringer. Jay Stringer is a Christian therapist who's studied almost 4, 000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction, whether it's porn, masturbation, cheating, buying sex, the list goes on. By the end of his research, they were able to predict the type of trauma that someone endured, especially in their families, based on the type of sexual fantasies and porn searches that they sought out.

In other words, it wasn't random. There was actually a pattern to it. Because of that, he says if you want to break free, you have to listen to your lust. Sounds kind of odd. What does he mean? He's of course not encouraging us to fall into lust, but rather to deeply understand it. Why? Because lust is just a symptom.

It's just a symptom of a deeper wound. It pinpoints where more healing is needed. And so I'd highly recommend checking out his book called Unwanted. We did a podcast episode with him as well, [00:28:00] but a few other resources at the conference. That will help you in this area. Matt Fradd and Jason Everett wrote a great book called forged.

It's a 33 day challenge for men to grow in purity. You can get that at the chastity project booth. If you're interested, the books didn't show up yet. There's a problem with the shipment that we had. Uh, so there'll be there tomorrow at some point. So you can get the forge book. If you want to Magdala ministries, perhaps you guys have heard of them.

They're a great ministry to help women who are struggling with sexual compulsion or addiction. They have a booth here as well. And so check that out. Rachel Kulaki, their leader, one of their leaders, she wrote a book called love and recovery about. her own struggles with sexual addiction, sexual compulsion.

So check that out. Um, Kelsey Skok is another one who, speaker, author, who wrote a book on her struggles with sexual compulsion. So you can get that one at the Chastity Project booth as well. And the Magdala Ministries is here as well. They have a booth not far from Chastity Project if you want to check that out.

And there's a lot of other resources we can send you guys in that email as well. But just to kind of summarize again, to break the cycle, again, we have to start with our own healing and building virtue. So we're freer to love. But how do we [00:29:00] practically build strong, healthy relationships? Again, I want to talk about three types of relationships.

Our relationship with our parents, romantic relationships, and our relationship with God. In college, I really struggled in my relationship with my dad. Like, he was in a really tough spot, and he was just acting out in a lot of ways that were harming people that I cared about. And so I felt convicted that if I were to continue my relationship with him, almost pretending like this stuff wasn't happening, I would kind of be tacitly approving that behavior.

And so again, I felt convicted to cut off communication with him, not an easy decision, but I didn't want to just ghost him. I wanted him to know why I was doing it. And so I wrote him a letter talking to him face to face at that time wouldn't have gone super well. So I wrote him this letter and I said, dad, I love you.

I want a good relationship with you. But as long as you act in this way, unfortunately that isn't possible. But as soon as I see your behavior start to change, I'll be more than happy to restart the relationship with you. We didn't talk for a year and a half. That was hard. But eventually his behavior did [00:30:00] change, and we were able to resume the relationship.

We're in a much better spot today. And so I'm not encouraging you guys to just, you know, cut off communication with your parents. That's an extreme. That takes a lot of discernment. But for any relationship to be healthy, boundaries are needed. And boundaries aren't just good for you, they're good for the relationship and the person on the other end as well.

But so often boundaries can kind of feel mean, especially if you're not used to, you know, using them in your life. Because it's true. It's true. Boundaries sometimes hurt. But there's a difference between hurt and harm. Hurt is pain that doesn't damage the person. It might even help them, like a life saving surgery.

Harm is pain that damages the person, like abuse. But to be a little bit more specific, so often boundaries are needed in a few areas, parents especially who are, you know, are going through a lot of pain through their own divorce or a lot of brokenness in the family kind of struggle in these areas we've learned.

One, bad mouthing. So often mom and dad just kind of speak badly about the other in our presence. Two, the middleman situation. So we're often expected as the children to maybe relay [00:31:00] information between mom and dad because they're not on speaking terms. And then spousification. Or mom or dad kind of rely on us as their emotional support and confidant.

And during Q and A, if you guys want to talk a little bit more about some tips on how to set boundaries in each of those situations, I'm happy to go into that. We also have a podcast episode on boundaries. If you guys are interested, we could send that to you. Next, if possible, deepen your relationship with mom and dad.

Now, if the relationship is abusive, or, you know, it's damaging to you, or maybe mom or dad don't want a relationship with you, which is super hard, obviously this isn't going to be realistic, but if you can, a good relationship with mom and dad is super important. Here's why. There was a study they did on high school students in Turkey.

And as you'd expect, they found that the students who came from divorced families were more likely to struggle with things like anxiety, depression, and loneliness. But if they had a good relationship with one or both parents, they were much less likely to struggle with anxiety, depression, and so it's definitely worth a shot to deepen your relationship with your parents.

Again, during Q& A if you want to, I [00:32:00] can throw out some ideas for how to better bond with your parents. Next, work toward forgiving your parents. Forgiveness isn't the first step of healing, it often comes later, but it's so freeing, like I've experienced that in my own life. Here's my definition of forgiveness though.

It's a continual decision to release someone of a debt they owe you for a past wrong they committed. And it involves a process. Two places to start, Father Mike Schmidt says that before we can forgive, we have to count the costs. We have to assess the damage, we have to tally it up before we can release them of the repayment that they owe us.

Father John Burns, he says too that the Latin word for mercy is misericordia, which literally means to be moved by the misery of another. Kind of a scary thing to do. But we need to ask the question, like, what was going on in their life that caused them to harm me in this way? That compassion is the start of forgiveness.

But a few final things, quick things about your relationship with your parents. If you're worried about your parents souls, remember that people can change, you [00:33:00] can't change them. People can change, you can't change them. Instead, just focus on living a holy life. Be an example to them and entrust them to God's mercy.

And remember that God desires to save them even more than you do. And one tactic that I've heard Jason Everett recommend is To ask all the religious sisters like here at Sikh to pray for your parents. You can write their name on a piece of paper, cut it up and hand it to them if you want to. And just, Hey, would you pray for this person?

You pray for my mom, my dad. But as much as we might struggle in our relationship with our parents, romantic relationships are really the hardest for people like us. Why do we struggle so much here? Our families are meant to be the school of love, right? And in broken families, essentially we get really poor training and how to love and how to build a relationship.

And so when it's our turn to be love. We often feel lost. We feel incompetent at it. We fear that our relationship will one day end the way that our parents did, like I experienced. And healthy relationships might even feel foreign and boring because we're so used to drama and dysfunction. But to build love that lasts, [00:34:00] the starting point is what we've been talking about, right?

Healing your brokenness, building virtue. Because if you want a great marriage, it starts with you. It has nothing to do with your relationship. Why is that? It's simple. You, and eventually your spouse, are the lid on your marriage. Your marriage will only be as healthy, happy, and holy as each of you are individually.

And what I've seen in the great marriages I've been blessed to know is this truth. The more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage. The more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage always. But beyond healing and building virtue, a few quick tips. Find a virtuous spouse. One guy said that marriage is the type of game where you win or lose the championship in the draft.

So we need to find virtuous spouses. But what sort of virtues should you look for? Obviously you want someone who has all the virtues, but I'd highlight a few. Find someone who's humble. Humility is the foundation of all the virtues. And within marriage, it's so helpful because it gives you the ability to apologize and to forgive your spouse.

And that [00:35:00] happens a lot. You can ask my wife. She's a pro at forgiveness. Find someone who's selfless, someone who has a heart for others. The best way you can tell if they have this heart for others, how do they spend their time and their money? Are they doing that selfishly or are they doing that to serve others?

That's one of the things that actually attracted me to my wife. Like, she's a nurse and she was always involved in ministry and just clearly had a heart for other people. Find someone who's living the virtue of chastity. We hear a lot about chastity. Why is it so important? A big part of it is because at the core of chastity is self mastery.

And self mastery is just an essential skill within a marriage because it gives you the ability to die to yourself and do what's best for your spouse and your children. Find someone who has empathy. Empathy is so helpful because within marriage, conflict is going to happen, and the goal is just to make that conflict healthy.

And empathy is so helpful because it gives you the ability to step into someone else's shoes, to see things through their eyes. Find someone who has a growth mindset. A growth mindset is basically just the belief that you can change, you can grow, you can get better. A fixed mindset is the opposite. It's the belief that you just can't change, can't grow, you're kind [00:36:00] of stuck the way that you are.

Why is this so important? Because you don't just marry the person that they are today, you marry the person that they will become. And one of the greatest indications of who they will become is their action and attitude toward growth, and so pay attention to that. Find someone who you could be friends with, someone who gets you, because marriage is so much more than romance and sex.

In fact, it probably could be said that the quality of a marriage is best measured by the quality of the friendship between the spouses. Not their sex life, not the romance, not the feelings that they have for each other. As good as and important as all of those things are, it's not the ultimate measure.

Find someone you want your children to be like. Just ask yourself this question when you're dating someone, do I want my children to be like this person? Find someone who's on the same page with you in these areas. God, money, parenting, in laws, and intimacy. So God, someone who ideally shares your faith.

Money, someone who has a similar vision of how you want to manage and spend your money. Parenting, someone who obviously wants to have kids and has a similar vision for how to form them and raise them. [00:37:00] And then in laws, someone who can, you know, good boundaries and have a healthy relationship with their families.

In intimacy, someone who can set healthy boundaries, you know, around sexual intimacy, especially, you know, outside of marriage, but then even boundaries within marriage and obviously some effort towards keeping, you know, intimacy, emotional, sexual intimacy in your marriage is super important. If you're on the same page in these areas, researchers say that the likelihood of you having a successful marriage just like shoots up.

And when marriages fall apart, if you notice, like it's usually because one or more of these things aren't aligned. But when discerning all this, we have to be careful. John Paul II said that as a rule, we exaggerate the goodness, the virtue of the person that we love. He says as a rule, we all do this. And so we need to ask the question, is this person actually virtuous?

And we shouldn't discern alone, right? Because love is blinding. We all know this. And so involve your family if you can, involve your friends, and actively ask for feedback. Okay, do you guys see any red flags? Like, what do you think about this relationship? Don't wait for people to bring feedback to you because they might not.

And it might be scary. You might not like the [00:38:00] answers that you get, but it will save you a lot of heartache. I really wish I'd done this sooner in some of my relationships. I remember after one of my relationships ended, uh, one of my best friends was like, Oh yeah, I saw this happening like six months ago.

I'm like, bro, like would have been helpful to know that. But to be fair, to be fair, I probably wouldn't have listened to him. But most of all, place all of this in God's hands. Like trust him. Like, he'll provide for you to the degree that you rely on him. I know the dating world right now is kind of a hot mess, like, it's really tricky out there for you guys.

I do not envy you, and so make sure to just trust God above all else. And take to heart the words of Curtis Martin, who said so well, he said, don't pursue your soulmate, pursue God, and after a while of running after him, turn to see who's keeping up with you. Next, set healthy expectations for marriage.

Perhaps you've heard of the Paris syndrome. The Paris syndrome is a psychological condition where when tourists go to Paris, France, they suffer extreme shock, disappointment, and other symptoms. This isn't a [00:39:00] joke. It's been documented by medical journalists. Like, they get so disrupted that they have to either go home or get medical attention.

What's going on here? Basically, the messy reality of Paris did not live up to the romantic expectations they had, and as a result, they were greatly disappointed. Similarly, if our expectations for marriage are unhealthy, if they're off, it's going to cause a lot of problems. And one popular unhealthy expectation that so many of us have, even in the Catholic world, is believing that the purpose of marriage is happiness.

The purpose of marriage is not happiness. The purpose of marriage is holiness, and of course having children and forming them. But nowhere in the wedding vows is happiness promised. I know, super romantic, but this is important. This is important because underneath almost every divorce is this belief.

Consciously or not, we expect our spouse to make us perfectly happy. And when they don't, we tend to think, hmm, maybe I married the wrong person. Maybe I picked the wrong location, I mean, I might even be tempted to leave. And so, your marriage will suffer to [00:40:00] the extent that you expect your spouse to make you perfectly happy.

Only God can do that. But does that mean there's no place for happiness within marriage? No, of course, of course there is. It's a good thing to make your spouse happy, to just enjoy all the happiness that comes with marriage. But don't be fooled. Marriage is hard work. It doesn't come to your door in a prime box.

We've been so conditioned in our culture that if we want something, we click a button and it shows up in a few days. Not so with marriage. Marriage is more like farming. It takes time to see the fruit of your labor, but we all know this. We don't know that the best things in life take hard work. Ask any Olympian how they won a gold medal.

They're not going to say they did it by sitting on the couch and watching Netflix. They put in the work every single day, especially when they didn't feel like it. If we want great marriages, why should we expect any less? And so one of the most helpful tactics that has worked for me and a lot of other people to set healthy expectations for marriage is just spending time with good couples, with good families.

Like, just soak in the presence of like their healthy, functional family. It will be so healing and helpful for you as well. And we can talk [00:41:00] about more how to build those relationships during Q& A if you guys want to. And again, I've like benefited from those two families in particular that were just super helpful and healing for me.

Next, prepare for the temptation to quit. This is probably the most unpopular thing I'll say in this talk, but be prepared for this. Expect things within your marriages to get difficult. Expect times where you just don't want to be married, where you'd rather quit and walk away. It might be days. It might be seasons.

For some of you, it'll maybe happen right away. For others, years down the road. And if you're shocked, if this is kind of scandalizing to you, think about it. Why do we make the vow? Why do we make the vow? If we were never tempted to quit, the vow really wouldn't be necessary. Desire alone would hold the marriage together.

And so when you or maybe your friends struggle within your marriage, just remember that you shouldn't believe the lie, that there's only two options. To stay married and be miserable, or get divorced and be happy. There is a third option. You can heal your marriage. You can make it strong. And there's a lot of great resources out there.

Again, during Q& A, if you guys want to, we could talk about [00:42:00] that. There's obviously so much more to say about relationships, but we can email you guys an entire talk we've done on this topic. There's a guide we have on it to building healthy relationships. And I also recommend Jason Everett's book, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

Such a good one for women. And then for men, he has the dating blueprint book, which is super great, super practical. And you can again, get those. But the final relationship in which so many of us struggle is in our relationship with God. Why is that? As children, the most powerful creature that we know are our parents.

And so we tend to think, well, if they're like this, then God must be like that too. We project their image onto him. But in broken families, this presents a problem. We often walk away with this extra distorted image of God, which is a huge barrier to intimacy with him. And I would propose that like, if you feel far from God right now.

This might be one of the reasons. And so an exercise a lot of people have found helpful to kind of untangle that distorted image of God, is just making two lists. One list is all the things you've felt God is [00:43:00] like. You can say these are the lies, right? The next is a list of the truth that you've learned about God, right?

From scripture, from the saints, from the sacraments, from the church. But as helpful as that may be, the biggest struggle I think we often face in our relationship with God is just feeling abandoned by him, which often leads to anger. There was one guy who told me, he's like, Joey, I don't believe in God. He said, honestly, it's probably because of being mad at whatever divine being is out there because of all the mess of things that happened within my family.

And so if you're angry at God, I get it. I've been there. Just make sure to bring your anger to him. He already knows about it. And he can handle it, I promise you. And don't let it drive a wedge between you. That so often happens in our world. And I'm speaking from experience here. Like, I've had to deal with this myself.

I've had to ask the question, like, God, why did you let this happen? Why'd you let my family fall apart? And more importantly, like, where were you? Where were you? Honestly, it felt like he was just sitting on the sidelines watching as I got my teeth kicked in. So I had to ask God, where were you? And the answer didn't come quick.

It took years, a lot of adoration, [00:44:00] a lot of prayer, a lot of spiritual direction. But in time, I become so convicted that God was not just watching from the sidelines. He was actually right there with me in the midst of the pain. He was right there with that 10 year old Joey, sitting in the closet, crying too, saying, this breaks my heart.

I don't want this to happen. It's not supposed to be this way. And what I've learned is that sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. Father Mike Schmidt said that. Sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. And the best proof, of course, that we have that God is in the midst of our suffering is Jesus on the cross.

We can never say that we have a God who doesn't know what it's like to suffer. And so instead of pushing him away when you suffer in life, just try holding on to him. Try holding on to him in the midst of that suffering. But even with all of that, it can still be hard to accept why God allows suffering.

And that's when we're challenged to just trust him. To trust that he can bring good out of it, to trust that he knows what he's doing, that he knows what he's about. St. John Newman said it so beautifully, he said, [00:45:00] Therefore, I will trust him. Whatever I am, I can never be thrown away. If I'm in sickness, my sickness may serve him.

In perplexity, my perplexity may serve him. If I'm in sorrow, my sorrow may serve him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what he is about. And so in closing, there's a real danger, guys, that if we don't heal, if we don't Build virtue, we're going to end up repeating that cycle. We'll pass our brokenness onto the people that we love the most, but that doesn't have to be our story.

If we heal our brokenness, if we build virtue, we can go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages and holy families. And this is how we transform our culture. John Paul II said that as the family goes, so goes the nation and so goes the whole world in which we live. And so if we do all of that, I really believe that we can transform our broken culture into a Catholic culture where the human person flourishes and souls are saved and there's nothing More important, but maybe after hearing all of this, you're feeling a little bit overwhelmed.

So just remember you don't heal overnight. Transformation takes time. It won't be easy. It might even be harder for [00:46:00] you than someone who has had an easier life, but so be it. You're going to be okay, guys. If you make those like 1 percent improvements every single day, and trust in God's grace more than your own strength, you're gonna look up a year from now at the next seek, and be like, wow, I've grown a lot.

You'll be a better, stronger, more virtuous person with a greater capacity to love. And remember, you're not alone. Like, I'm right there with you guys, I'm trying to live this out in my own life as imperfectly as I might do that at times. And I'd say make sure to not just do this for yourself, don't just heal and build virtue for yourself.

Do it for the people that you love in your life. For me, my family is my motivation. I bring their picture back up. I want to spare them the pain and the trauma that I endured. I don't want to pass my brokenness onto them. I want to give them the family that they deserve. With God's help, you guys can do the same.

Not only can you do the same, but if God's calling you to marriage, this is your mission. And so my challenge to you guys is this. What's just one thing that really resonated with you in this talk, just one, [00:47:00] just take action on that one thing this week. That's it. Kind of my prayers for you guys. I have over a thousand sisters praying for you and, uh, just so honored to be here with you guys.

God bless you guys. If you want the resources mentioned in the talk, just go to restored ministry. com slash talk. or click on the link in the show notes, we'll be happy to send those to you. After the talk, I had the privilege of chatting with the college students, with the young adults, uh, one on one answering their questions, listening to their stories.

And the line was actually over two and a half hours long. And to me, it just shows how badly this message is needed. And so if you feel the same and you'd like your school, your university, church conference, youth group, young adult group to hear this message or any of the other talks that we offer, we'd love to work with you.

If my schedule allowed, and you can feel free to fill out the speaking form at restored ministry. com slash speaking, or by clicking the link in the show notes. So, I'm going to go ahead and start with the show notes. Now, by doing that, you're not committing to anything. Of course, you're just gathering more info.

There's actually an option to schedule a time to discuss your potential event with my team if you prefer that. And also, I can deliver a secular [00:48:00] version of my talk that doesn't mention God or faith if you have a secular audience. Again, that's restoredministry. com slash speaking or by clicking the link in the show notes.

Again, my availability is limited due to a bunch of recent requests for speaking engagements, but we'd be happy to work with you if my schedule allows. That wraps up this episode. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life.

And we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

I Felt Like We Were Living a Lie

5 minute read.

This story was written by Anonymous at 26 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 8. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

It's hard to know where to begin. My parents got married despite warnings from their parents and grandparents. I was born out of wedlock when they were both 19, as was my brother, who was born just after my parent's wedding. I think I grew up believing they got married because that's what you do when you have a baby accidentally. I couldn't think of any other reason, given that their families hated each other and never had a moment of peace between them. When I was six years old, we moved to another city so that they could attend a state school. I was already doubtful of their love for each other. Their constant arguing fed this doubt. I can count only one single instance of witnessing my parents being affectionate toward each other. Looking back, I felt like we were living a lie. I never felt settled in our home together.

Eventually, the stress of raising two kids and succeeding in college proved difficult for them. My 11-month-old brother went to live with my grandma to relieve them of some stress. After this, our family slowly ebbed away. When I was around 7, I begged my parents to let me live with my grandma as well. I missed my brother terribly, and I thought our life in Tallahassee was dreadfully boring. My grandma is also divorced. She became pregnant with my dad at 18 and was abandoned by my bio grandfather. She later married and had three more children. The details of her marriage are spotty for me, but she suffered many mental health issues in addition to the infidelity of my late step-grandfather. While living with my grandma, I learned of my parents' separation. I don't remember the moment I found out that well, but I don't think I was shocked. Due to a lack of financial resources and communication, they did not make their divorce official until 2022. Being raised by my grandma was extremely tumultuous. We lived below the poverty line and struggled to stay in stable housing. My grandma would constantly compare me to my mother in a derogatory way and made it difficult to communicate openly with her. Over time, my mom grew frustrated and stopped calling. My dad lived in another state and sparingly called. Eventually, my dad moved in with us, but we were still estranged from my mom and her entire side of the family. It wasn't until my grandma kicked me out of her house (due to false accusations) and sent me to live with my mom that I was reunited with her.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

It was not until very recently that I realized that my parent's divorce affected me. I think the circumstances surrounding it were so chaotic that I never saw it as the most impactful thing. When it happened, I was saddened but told myself it was the right thing for them to do. I never witnessed their love and felt so far removed from the dynamics of their marriage (besides their bickering) that I did not think I had much to grieve. I will say I grieved the togetherness of my immediate family. My grandma also painted such a poor image of my mom in my mind, that I thought being sad about the divorce would be akin to feeling sad that my dad was no longer "trapped" in a bad marriage, which felt like a betrayal. Today, I am grieved by my parents' divorce, as I see it as the catalyst to the various other traumas I experienced.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

I have significant trouble setting boundaries regarding things that I feel will make the other person sad or angry. I am generally a hard shell to crack and keep my cards close, even amongst close friends. Marriage feels impossible and unattainable. I have no idea what it's like to belong to a healthy family dynamic. I have significant relationship anxiety and have gone about relationships in unhealthy ways to gain affection. For most of my life, I have felt unloveable and lonely, even when many people have shown me great love and granted me companionship. I have a hard time believing in love. My relationship with God has sometimes felt very transactional and rigid because I doubt His goodwill toward me, especially when I fail. I am also mostly estranged from my dad's side of the family and my younger brother. Being estranged from my brother causes me the most anguish. By the grace of God, I believe my experiences give me a higher tolerance for pain, and I am always learning more about suffering well, especially after my conversion to Catholicism.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Be honest with your feelings with at least one person. There is no right or wrong way to feel. You don't need to justify the divorce because you feel bad for your parents. It is an injustice to you. But also know that they are human and may be unaware of the gravity of their actions. Ultimately, know that you belong to a family in Jesus Christ that can never be dissolved. Cast your cares upon Him often and as frequently as they arise because He cares for you!!

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#141: Good Can Come from Broken Situations | Dylan

At age 5, Dylan’s parents divorced. Visitation brought challenges, but he learned to appreciate the time it gave him with his dad, who really helped him grow. From that, he learned that good can come from broken situations.

In today’s episodes, we also discuss topics like:

• How we need father figures, ideally our dads, in order to become men, find our strength, and learn what to do with it

• The challenges and blessing of a stepfamily

• How your value isn’t measured by your performance or exterior qualities

If you’re from a blended family, you’ve questioned your value, you’ve felt unwanted, or you’re missing a father figure in your life, this episode is for you.

Visit Dylan’s website, RadicalLoveCommunity.com

Follow Dylan on Instagram, YouTube, or Facebook

Buy the Book: God's Little Kiddo

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Dylan: [00:00:00] I remember my dad leaving the house. That was a vivid memory. The memories that most children probably have at that point of get the bag together, put all of your things together and go out the door and take a drive and then come back home the next day.

Joey: Going through that whole visitation thing. Was there anything that was helpful for you to know, or ~you to hear~ any advice that you would give to someone like that?

Who's maybe just struggling through that whole bouncing from mom's house to dad's house, back and

Dylan: forth. And I had a real fear that. Even if I want to be married, I won't be married one day. Like, just thinking that there is, like, something wrong with me. I've learned that each person has been, like, intentionally designed to be a gift in a unique way.

And it's taken a lot of healing to be able to see myself as someone who could be a gift to someone else.

Joey: Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Dylan. He's a native of Des [00:01:00] Moines, Iowa, product of a blended family, and has always been driven by a profound question. How does Jesus address the human heart? That question fuels his creative passion as a writer and founder of Radical Love, a dynamic brand he established in high school, actually.

Radical Love's innovative products, including clothing, fragrances, and books designed and written by Dylan, have garnered international support from celebrities, professional athletes, clergy, and renowned artists. At its core, Radical Love seeks to ignite Eucharistic amazement. And Dylan's book, God's Little Kiddos, celebrates the sacredness of human life, and is shared in homes throughout the United States.

I'm really excited for you guys to get to know Dylan. At age 5, Dylan's parents divorced, and as you can imagine, visitation brought a lot of challenges, but he learned to appreciate the time it gave him with his dad, who really helped him grow as a man. And from that, he learned an important lesson, and that good can come from broken situations.

And so in today's episode, we discussed topics like how we need our fathers, uh, in order to grow as men. And if we don't have our [00:02:00] fathers, we at least need a father figures in order to find our strength as men and learn what to do with it. We talk about the challenges and blessings of a step family, how your value isn't measured by external factors or by your performance or by external qualities.

Uh, he shares his desire to learn how to build a really healthy relationship and one day a beautiful future marriage. And we both share how, We've struggled believing that people really want us for us. And so if you come from a blended family, maybe you've questioned your value. Maybe you've felt unwanted, or you've missed out on having a father figure in your life.

This episode is for you. By the way, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind, even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from.

this episode. And with that, here's our conversation. Dylan, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Dylan: Thanks for having me.

Joey: I remember when we met in Florida at Ave [00:03:00] Maria. I was really impressed with you. Just, yeah, there's so much about you to be impressed by, but, um, we, I know we talked business and different things like that.

So I'm excited to hear more of like this side of your story. I know a little bit of it, but if you would take us back in time a little bit, what was, I know you were young, but what was life like from what you've been told or what you remember in the years and months before your parents split?

Dylan: My parents split when I was five, so I don't have a lot of memories that are vivid that I think back to at that time, but I do just remember a lot of time at home together.

I knew my dad was really a hard worker and he would come in late at night. At one point he was working at Firestone with tires, so sometimes he'd be covered with like marks from the tires or he would get his hands dirty for the kids, I'd say, for us at home. So I just remember. him in that way, at least at that time of his work and the time he spent in that.

And then my times at home are just really warm memories. I remember I live in the [00:04:00] Midwest, so it gets really cold. So I remember just nights by the fireplace playing Lincoln logs with my older brother or just times with us as a family. And I had grandparents close by too. So I was really blessed with some, some warm memories as a toddler in that time.

And I remember my dad leaving the house, that was a vivid memory. I still have of kind of coming to consciousness at that point of what was happening around me. And I have memories of then after he was out of the home, how. I would go my time to go see him. I remember just the memories that most children probably have at that point of get the bag together, put all of your things together and go out the door and take a drive and then come back home the next day.

And so those are kind of my memories of the early stages of my life.

Joey: No, that makes so much sense. That sounds like you had a. You know, good memories of like early childhood and then the divorce obviously brought some challenges and one of them is the whole visitation thing. We don't talk about that a ton on the [00:05:00] show, um, like the reality of visitation because it can be so tricky for kids.

I remember going through it myself and then when I was over 18 and my younger siblings were going through it, that brought like a new dimension to it. Um, yeah, I'm just curious like maybe to anyone listening right now who's going through that whole visitation thing. Was there anything that was helpful for you to know or you to hear any advice that you would give to.

someone like that who's maybe just struggling through that whole bouncing from mom's house to dad's house back and forth.

Dylan: For me, I was living primarily at my mom's house and it brought me comfort that I could come back. And sometimes I wouldn't know, I wouldn't like know what I wanted as a child. And I think sometimes that's the conflict is you have is you want to be with dad, you want to be with mom.

And so to make that decision, even if like where you lay your head and where you sleep can be really, really challenging, I think for, for children in that position. And I. I would do my best. At the time, I remember just once I walked in the door at my dad's place and said my hello and dropped my bag. I felt [00:06:00] a little bit like, well, now I need to stay rather than having to turn the car around after I was just dropped off and then go back to the other house.

So I think that's a challenging point. But then at some point I kind of gave myself the permission or my dad was really tender with me and telling me It's okay, like you can go, you can go to your, your mom's house. You don't have to leave, you know, and I can take you back home if you need, and you can come back another time.

So I think just that I had. A little bit of the space and the permission from my parents to decide that because I think as at least for me as a young child, I didn't, I wasn't really capable of making that decision of where I wanted to sleep. I would want to spend time with my dad and I didn't realize, well, if I go back home tonight, that might mean that I don't get to go back for another few days or until the weekend or something.

So I think I wasn't really fully comprehending that decision, but it was really helpful to have the permission to say, I want to go home at [00:07:00] points.

Joey: That's helpful. And I think that's such a great tip to parents listening. It sounds like your dad and your mom too, were very respectful of like your wishes, your wants.

Sometimes what we've seen as parents, because they're hurting so much, they can. Almost like feel like they have a right to their child being with them. And it can turn into like a very intense experience for the child, even though maybe mom and dad don't intend that by any means, it can just be like, well, now it's my time with you and you need to be happy here.

And, um, it's like kind of an impossible situation to be in, because like you said, you're kind of in one way or another, you're forced to choose between mom and dad. And you should never really have to do that. It's like they're both your parents and you should be able to love both of them, not say like, no, I only want to live here, only be here.

Now, sometimes there's realities that cause, you know, people that like need to live only with mom or need to live only with dad, like whether it's abuse or just really dysfunctional and broken situations. But yeah, it's, it's definitely a, like an impossible task to ask like a, you know, five, six, seven, eight year old, whatever age to be like, who do you want to live with?

It's like, it's not an easy thing. So that sounds like such a good [00:08:00] thing that you're. Mom and your dad were respectful. They gave you the space. They allowed you to kind of go where you needed to be. And, uh, did you feel the need to like become a different person? Feel free to comment on any of that as well.

But did you feel the need to like become a different person when you jumped between the two houses? Some people do, some people don't. Just curious what your experience was.

Dylan: I don't have that experience. I think it might've been due to me being so young was just, I was who I was and I didn't really. Um, have a lot of time where I thought I needed to put on a mask or change where I was.

And I know my memories of visiting my dad are really fond memories for me because he really nurtured creativity in me. And so. It might be us going to a craft store or us doing different things that I wouldn't necessarily do at the other house where he would just give me so much time to draw or we'd build things together or things like that.

So I think those early memories of visits with him, even just shortly after the divorce are really fond memories of me because he [00:09:00] would help me with my homework and spend time with me. Then just so I could get to the stuff I wanted to do, like throwing the football around or building things or drawing things.

And so I felt like I was able to be genuinely myself in both houses, but I think each parent kind of had their unique perspective on who I was as a child and what my gifts are. Even if they agreed on what my gifts were, they helped nurture those in different ways. So I have really fond memories of those visits with my dad and just those experiences together.

Joey: That's awesome. No, I think that's a good thing. I, um, we've heard a lot of like kind of broken stories about that, but it sounds like your parents were like very present to you, which I think is again, a great lesson to new parents listening right now to like implement some of these things in your family life, especially if there's visitation going on.

Um, but even for maybe any children listening, especially who maybe are a little bit older and in a spot to maybe communicate some needs to parents where you can say like, Hey, this is what I hope it can be like. So I think there's a lot of lessons in your story. You mentioned how old you were. I'm curious, how did you learn about the separation and divorce?

You [00:10:00] mentioned that your dad left one day. Was there any specific memory you have of like being told by your mom and your dad or one the other about that? And what was that like for you to learn that?

Dylan: I remember having an understanding before the separation actually happened logistically. I remember having an understanding.

The divorce and knowing what was happening, uh, whether it was my family explaining it to me, I was already in therapy at that point too. So I think it was just from, from my parents explaining to me what was happening. I knew what was happening. At least I knew what it would mean. I knew that. Dad would be living somewhere else.

I knew that he was no longer married to mom. And I knew I had an understanding of that.

Joey: That makes sense. And was there anything that mom or dad said to you that helped you kind of deal with that? It sounds like they were very proactive with like getting into therapy and everything like that. But curious if there was anything that you look back on like, yeah, that was actually really helpful that they did this or did that.

And that's okay. If not, I'm

Dylan: just curious. One thing that I do remember that really helped me and brought me at ease was that my dad wasn't leaving far. He actually, for [00:11:00] the first portion of it, was very near and accessible. So it brought me peace to know he's not leaving me. He's not leaving my brother. Or I knew that my mom and my dad were still communicating often, and we're still parenting both of us together in terms of, like, deciding how we were raised and making decisions together.

So I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to grieve a loss of a parent because I knew he was still there for me, just not necessarily under the same roof.

Joey: I hear you there. And that sounds like a good principle for parents listening as well. So a lot of good stuff. So I can make a guess here, but I want to hear what you have to say.

Would you describe the, You know, the marriage and the divorce is high conflict or low conflict. And just a reminder for everyone listening, high conflict would be a situation of abuse where there's a lot of visible dysfunction. There's maybe violence. Just think of, you know, really bad conflict. And just from the children's point of view, that's like all apparent, how broken and dysfunctional the family is.

Low conflict would be the opposite where the problems are more covert or not as obvious, [00:12:00] and there might be, you know, real problems behind the scenes, but to the children, things seem mostly stable and fine, um, until, you know, they've learned one day that, oh, well. Okay. Mom and dad aren't going to be married or living together.

So I'm just curious, low conflict, high conflicts, a mix of the two.

Dylan: It was low conflict. There was no violence or abuse involved. And I was not, I was five. So I didn't understand necessarily even really. Why it was that people might not stay in a marriage, but I didn't, I didn't see necessarily, I definitely didn't see any abuse or I wasn't there for any fights or anything of that nature.

And they were very communicative with each other throughout that part of our story. So. It was low conflict.

Joey: Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for sharing all that. And was there anything else that you wanted to share? Like that was happening during the separation and the divorce? Um, you've already gone into it quite a bit, but I'm just curious before we move on, if there was anything else at that part of the story.

Dylan: I just remember being In the house still with my older brother and my mom and it was the three [00:13:00] of us and I just remember just looking at them for my strength and my comfort with my dad as well. Of course, when I would be alone with him or with my brother and him. I looked at my mom and looked at my brother and felt in my heart that I was going to be okay and everything is going to be okay.

And I would feel the same when I would just look at my dad. And so I think there was a sense of, yes, this is a difficult thing that we didn't plan for or wouldn't have expected for us. But I had a sense that. This isn't the end

Joey: and that, yeah, there's still like a lot of good that can come from like your family relationships.

There's still a lot of love that can be, you know, shown experience, all that. I've definitely seen that in my family too. I know often on the show, we're talking about like the. the really difficult parts, the, the hurt, the pain that come from the family's falling apart. And that's certainly, there's certainly a lot there.

I don't mean to take away from that, diminish it at all. But I think, you know, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot [00:14:00] of things that can result in being like, just like how, you know, God can bring good out of evil. Like, I think there's like a lot of good that could come out of really messy situations. And I definitely seen that.

I think like me and my siblings, one, One thing has been me and my siblings have gotten a lot closer, I think, because of that experience. Absolutely. Yeah. And I know I even look at other families and that's, I guess, judgment by any mean, but even families that are like intact and relatively healthy, um, the siblings aren't as close.

So that's kind of interesting. And, um, you know, not, not to say that every broken family, the siblings were close and every intact families are not, not the case, but yeah, you, you get what I mean. So yeah, there, there's that. And then I think even, um, You know, there, I think that the whole term that like children are resilient sometimes is overused, especially when maybe it's being used to say that like the family breaking apart isn't a big deal at all when, or as we believe it is.

But I think there is, when you go through just any difficult, painful thing in life, um, especially if you had people loving you and supporting you and encouraging your resilience, you actually can become. pretty darn resilient. And there's a lot of virtue that can come from that later in life, whether it's in, you know, [00:15:00] school or health and fitness or, you know, in the, in your career, in the business world, things like that.

Um, so, so I think there is like, you know, like I said, there's a good that can come from like really broken, messy situations.

Dylan: Absolutely. I agree with that. And you mentioned how it gave an opportunity to grow close with siblings. I see that as well for both of my parents too. It's just, it's not a situation that you plan for or anticipate.

And projected ahead of you, but when it was our reality, it was difficult for every relationship. I know it was hard for my dad and for my mom. I know it was hard for my mom and my brother's relationship. So we're all experiencing the same thing, but we all have our own different experiences. Like my brother was.

Older than me, so we don't have the same experience or memories and the memories I have of my dad of that when our story I think has helped us grow closer as father and son and for my mom and myself as well. So, I think sometimes it's not necessarily okay to dismiss what happened or say that it wasn't a [00:16:00] huge event that will, I think it's an event that affects you for the rest of your rest of your life.

It might affect you at different points, but I think it wasn't all. It wasn't all dark. I think there was a lot that we took from it and gained from it.

Joey: Yeah. No. And I think that, that whole power of like transformation, like instead of saying crushed and down on the ground, like you can get up and you can like push forward.

And even on a human level, but especially if you add like, I know not everyone listening believes in God, but if you add like that kind of supernatural strength and grace to it, then there's a lot that can happen that maybe it wouldn't be humanly possible, but there's so much good there. And I, one thing I wanted to say is that, uh, There was a study they did in Turkey.

I've quoted this on the podcast before, but they looked at high school students who came from divorced families and they found that as you'd expect, those students were more likely to struggle with things like anxiety, depression, and loneliness. But if they had a good relationship, if those students had a good relationship with one or both parents, they were actually significantly less likely to struggle with anxiety, depression, or loneliness.

And so the lesson in that is like, you know, if you can have a health. the relationship with [00:17:00] like one or both parents, it's actually really good for you personally. And so I think your story really exemplifies that as well, because it seemed like you have a good relationship with your parents and had that even during those like really difficult trying times.

I'm sure there were bumps in the road, but um, I think there's like an important lesson in all that. So thank you for sharing so openly. I'm curious, kind of going beyond the separation, the divorce, like after it was done, did you at any point like realize like, Oh, you know, as much. Good that could have come out of this and how I got stronger in different ways.

Did it affect you negatively? And like, when did you, I guess, realize that, that it was affecting you negatively?

Dylan: I think I noticed it just growing up as a young boy without living under the same roof as my dad, most of the time was just that. After that separation too, I think it can be difficult for grandparents and extended family and for the family as a whole to make sense of how we're going to carry on, because if I'm not under the same roof as my dad, then maybe we're not talking about him as much, or maybe we're not giving that same [00:18:00] opportunity for me to learn about that side of my family, and I think I struggled at points to say, Hey, Like, what is my identity and what are the strengths of masculinity?

What does it mean to be a growing boy and what does it mean to be a man when I grow up to be a man one day? And I think that took a lot of intentional time and conversations with my dad that. I kind of saw the danger of that being taken away from me if I didn't go looking for it, because I think for a lot of young people, especially in my generation, if we grew up with not a lot of time with our dad in person, then here's the internet and here's all these people.

Trying to tell you what it means to be a man or how to be a man, or you go into the schools and most of the teachers are female, which is, which is wonderful. It's just unless we have great coaches or people were looking up to people. I think young boys will look for a father figure if they don't find that in their dad.

And so I definitely kind of saw that as just like a darkness that I didn't want to [00:19:00] be enveloped and I didn't want to be lost in. thinking that he wasn't there for me and he wasn't my dad just because he wasn't in my house.

Joey: Really good. What did you do with that then? How did that play out over the years?

Dylan: I think it can be tempting, especially if you're, for me, my visit to my dad was often on Sundays. So we go to church together, we come back and we watch football and we have a meal, but it can be tempted I can be tempted to leave it to that, to just, okay, let's come, let's sit on the couch, let's turn the TV on.

After the episode's over, I'll be headed to the door again, you know? And I think it really took a little bit of digging deep, some vulnerability, to be able to say, hey dad, I'm really struggling with this, what do I do? Like, hey dad, I like a girl, what do I do? Hey, hey dad, I, I'm having trouble in, in this sport, I feel like I'm not tough enough, what do I do?

Or even simple things just like homework. My dad would sit with me and help me study for tests. And I think things like that, maybe I could have, like I said, for people [00:20:00] of my generation, maybe I could have found someone online to show me how to shoot a jump shot. I wanted to ask my dad, you know, and I think taking that time to, I'm going to ask in person to my father rather than, well, since these days of the week, I'm not with him.

I'm going to just, I don't know, go on YouTube or go talk to so and so from the school.

Joey: It's easy to do that. Yeah. Especially now, like with AI and everything, it's like, you basically have all the, you know, a lot of the answers at your fingertips. So I admire you for kind of being that disciplined. And I agree.

I think there's something about, you know, masculinity that we learn from other men. We don't learn it from podcasts. We don't learn it from books. We. Really just have to be in the presence of like real men, like good men, men who, you know, have like masculinity to pass on. And so, um, so I think there's like a really powerful lesson in that, that we can't get it through like a screen.

And you make me think of too, how, you know, in a lot of like inner city situations, there's just so many broken families. There's so many homes that were just mom or just dad, or, you know, they don't [00:21:00] even know dad and just really difficult situation. And so many young people are fatherless and in those situations, especially in like.

very broken parts of our cities here in America and the rest of the world. It's really easy to fall into like, uh, gang activity, right? To, to join a gang. And it's really interesting that the, the gang leaders from what I've heard, never been in a gang, is, uh, they're like actually really, um, great leaders in some ways.

Like they understand that these boys especially kind of need that masculinity. They need that father figure. They need to belong, to be a part of something. Kind of like a family. It's like a pseudo family. And so they join like with that in mind. And these leaders, like these gang leaders, um, I've heard people talk about this.

They're so effective that they actually make these people like want to do these insane thing for them and even perhaps die for them. It's wild. And so I think it just shows, especially on a masculine level, like that drive that you had, that I've had, that all men I think have for like to have that father figure in your life.

And when that's void, man, yeah. We will search it out in [00:22:00] ways that can be really destructive and unhealthy. And on the flip side of that, not that everyone who is fatherless joins a gang, but on the flip side of that, I think so often we could actually take that yearning to women. And I've heard John Eldridge, um, the guy who wrote while that heart talks about this too, where instead of going to a woman to like offer our strength, we go to her to find it.

And that is just a recipe for disaster because she was never meant to like, make us masculine, to give us strength. Like we were meant to find that with other men and then offer it to the women in our lives. So yeah, I think you make so many good points and you just made me think of all that as well. Any thoughts?

Dylan: You made me think of it just when you were speaking about joining a gang. I also have never been in a gang, but you talked about that desire they had to die for a cause. And I think for a lot of us men, at least I can speak for myself. I feel that innate desire to give myself for something, for a purpose, for something higher to myself and find my identity in something more powerful than just me.

And [00:23:00] it really hit when you said either trying to find your strength in women rather than offer your strength to women. And I, I've never heard it described in that way, but I think that's a really, really powerful way to put it.

Joey: Yeah, when I read that from, I can't remember if it was John Eldred's book Wild at Heart or the sequel to it called The Fathered by God, but he mentioned that and that just like hit me between the eyes too, because I remember just experiencing that and a little bit in middle school, but definitely in high school and even a little bit in college.

I'd grown a lot more at that by that point, but yeah, just like, It's almost like you have this experience of just almost like wanting something from the woman that you're with, like if you're dating her, you have female friends that she can never even give to you. And I don't know, I haven't thought about this in a while, but it leads to like really, I think, unhealthy dynamics in a relationship.

And again, it could, I think the way it played out in my life was it kind of made me a little bit clingy and even finding like disappointment in some relationships where it was like I wanted more than was maybe even possible, if that makes sense, where again, like I was hoping for it to be kind of [00:24:00] this cure to a lot of the pain and kind of to fill the void of this.

Father's listeners that I had experienced to that, you know, maybe it was seeking in like a wrong way. So one of the antidotes for me, just to kind of close the story was actually finding men in my life who could step into that mentor, like father role. And that was super healing for me. Oh my gosh. Like there are multiple men, whether it was like.

Just a general mentor or even like a spiritual director on the spiritual side, or just, you know, people who were just in my life for like little periods of time who like taught me lessons or they affirmed me. They left me through all that. That was, that was super, super helpful and healing to have that.

And then even like growing in my relationship with my own dad has been, you know, helpful as well. I don't know if we'll ever be like super, super close or be able to have like all the deep conversations that maybe I once longed for. But um, but I'm really, um, we're in a better spot now and I'm definitely happy about that.

But um, yeah, I think that, you know, taking that to other men has been definitely part of the solution for me.

Dylan: That resonated. So deeply with me. When you bring up finding that strength with other men and then being able to offer it yourself. 100 [00:25:00] percent true. I think taking that effort to grow with my own dad has been really the most important step I've taken and then also you mentioned spiritual direction.

You mentioned time with other men and I actually I have a short story if, if you don't mind. I was, I think it was my sophomore year of college. I was on two sports teams at the time. I was in a household with other men, which at my university worked as a small group that you were meeting with to live together, to talk about God and the Bible together.

So it was really a tight knit group. And I was also talking a lot with my roommate. So I thought at the time, I thought, okay, I'm doing well, there's not anything big to be worried about. my childhood or thinking about coming from a blended family because my parents were remarried at that point it's just like divorce that was something from childhood put away but i met with a spiritual director and by the end i was weeping on his shoulder and when i walked in i [00:26:00] thought i was happy so i think that just showed me just like you i had thought of myself as a healed person and then realized there's so much healing still to do there's so much work that can be done in my heart to accept the love of God, to accept my worth and identity, not from finding it in someone else, but finding it in God and finding it and just being a person of value just for who I am and not in what I'm doing or not by relationship of someone else in my life was so incredibly healing.

And I was just so shocked that I wept that much, like on someone's shoulder, like, uh, Like a toddler when I walked in thinking I'm doing great, like my classes or whatever on the surface. I'm, I'm happy. I'm good. And so that was something that really woke me up to say as much as I might feel healed, that might just be a sign that I'm scared to go deeper.

Joey: Wow, so good and don't [00:27:00] feel pressured to share it at all But like you alluded to the fact that you kind of learned that your value didn't come from like your performance It didn't come from the things you did but just like inherently and who you are as a man as a human you have dignity of value you have worth but was there anything in particular that was said in that session in that spiritual direction session that really like Hit a nerve with you, if you want to share.

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Dylan: I am comfortable sharing this, but I do hope that it does, does resonate with someone because this is vulnerable for me. But I was, at this point in my life, I mentioned the sports at that point, I was not eating like I should be, I was spending so much time fasting, not for a spiritual reason, but for wanting to lose weight, and I would tell myself, I'm doing this to get ready for basketball season, and I was torturing myself essentially, and it was all a body image issue really, and thinking that, well, if I look [00:29:00] like this, then I'll be worth it, or if I, Business wise, if I make this much more than I'll be worth it and just trying to stack things on top of each other to make myself worth it and alter my personality or kind of wear a mask and just being so insecure at that point to try to like manufacture and put together worth and one thing he said to me was you are not a product and that just hit me to my core was I wasn't something That was waiting to be created and put together.

I was already created as, as I am, and I didn't need to make something of myself to be worth it.

Joey: Wow. So powerful. Just that whole fact of like, you're not a product. That's really good of like, you don't need to like add things to make yourself more valuable. Like, obviously, we always want to grow and improve and be better, you know, more virtuous, I should say.

But I love that fact that, like, you performing better on the court or being leaner or looking better, whatever, making more money is not the measure of your value as a person. So good. [00:30:00] Wow. I, the question that came to mind was, like, what was driving all that behavior, do you think? What were you afraid of?

Like, why did you put in all that effort to maybe look a certain way or perform a certain way? Like, what were you going after there? What'd you want?

Dylan: I really wanted to have a sense of, a sense of identity that I was strong and I was wanted and I was loved. And I was really comfortable telling other people that, especially in the church, telling other people.

Like, uh, this book, for example, it was like a children's book, telling People, how much God loved them and how they were made uniquely delightful from the beginning of time, from an all powerful creator. But I really didn't believe that for myself. And so I think it took a lot of, took a lot of healing and it took a lot of time and prayer and laying my burdens down to accept that God really loved me and that my family really loved me and that my friends loved me for me, and not because of any like surface level.

Um, not from an [00:31:00] external thing, I learned that it wasn't the externals that made me valuable and it, it wasn't actually the love of friends or it wasn't attention from anyone that changed or altered my value and, and the slightest, whether to make it higher or lower, it was just simply my value didn't change.

I was, I was chosen by Jesus. And then I was also supported by family and friends. And then I started to grow confidence in myself to realize if I really become who I am made to be, then I won't have to worry about gaining affection or earning love because it was love that caused me into being like it was God himself who caused me into being it was already decided what I was worth.

And that's not changed by my mistakes and failures. And it's not changed by my. Successes.

Joey: So good. Wow. Thank you. You're so articulate and I definitely appreciate hearing that too. I am, I definitely have struggled, you know, in some ways. And so that's really, really good. [00:32:00] I appreciate that. I am going back to your story.

I'm just curious over the years, you've already shared so much, but if there's anything you'd add in the, in terms of just different ways you saw yourself struggle, whether it was like directly or indirectly related to the, you know, the breakdown of the family. But yeah, I'm curious if there were like, Problems in your emotions, um, if there were maybe bad habits that you had fallen to, or maybe a relationship circle.

So like emotions, you know, habits and relationships, how did, how were those affected? Could you see from what you went through when you were younger?

Dylan: Uh, and thinking about childhood, both my parents remarried. So then I gained three step siblings from my stepfather. And at one point we were all living in the same house.

And so that presented its unique set of challenges with learning how to communicate with these people, some of them a little older than me, some of them near my age, and just navigating what it's like to gain new people in the house and gain, gain a stepfather in the house. And I think a lot of children who come from blended family might be able to relate to that of [00:33:00] trying to build a relationship with the new people that are, have been introduced to you and what that looks like.

Especially if like, it's not your biological father, but it's a man who's moving in or it's not your biological mother, but it's a new stepmother moving in with your dad. I think that can be, it's been a really beautiful thing in my life, but it's definitely taken similar to what I said of bringing things to my dad to be able to grow in relationship to him.

I think it's taken the same with my stepfather or stepmother to say, I'm just going to go to your house right now or I'm going to come meet you and let's just talk and spend time together because we're in each other's lives now. Like, you know, there's the blessing that comes from a marriage, but that's a forever commitment and we're family now.

And regardless of what disagreements or differences we may have, I really wanted. a loving relationship with every new person who is coming into my, to my home of my dad or my mom.

Joey: I love that desire you had. And yeah, no, I personally have limited experience with the step [00:34:00] family, blended family situation.

So it's helpful for you to talk into that. Was there anything that was like helpful for you aside from what you said, or in addition to what you said that maybe it would help someone who's maybe struggling with step siblings or step parents? Yeah. Any, any lessons or advice that you would pass on that were helpful for you?

Dylan: I'm an expert by no means. I'm just a kid working on figuring it out. But I mean, some things, for example, that have helped me have just been showing up when I know that it's important, when I know that maybe it's not the top thing on my list to go to this graduation or go to this dinner or go to this games night or something.

But then I realized that selfishly important for me and In a selfless way important for me, because just like you said, it's a great benefit to you as a child if you have the opportunity to cultivate that relationship with your parents, which everyone's situation is different. And that might be more easily possible for some of us.

And I just found that. If it was [00:35:00] taking that time to bring a difficult question that I had to my stepfather to my stepmother or to go like to travel to like celebration somewhere, go meet for a meal with my step siblings, or just kind of taking that time, I realized was going to be benefit to all of us because we are all part of each other's story at this point, and we are going to continue to be in each other's life.

So I just wanted to at least have. An open door to communicate was my like lowest goal. And then my highest goal was like, let's be best buds. But it's, it's tricky, but I think I haven't given up. And then I also recognize that life is unpredictable and we don't know what might happen next year or in the next coming years, but we do have the present moment.

So anything I can do to. Maybe it's apologize for some of the ways I've hurt them in the past or say like any way I can increase the piece even a [00:36:00] small degree or just to kind of bring us closer I think can be really valuable today because I think some of those, some of those small sacrifices that we make for other people might have big consequences in the future and big rewards in the future, not to say to do it for the sake of rewards, but It helps to be kind and it helps to apologize when that's needed.

And for me, I've recognized that even though we might not be related by blood, the things that I do and the way I live my life will affect them and the way they live their lives affect me. Because regardless of even like when I am living out of state, the things I do affect my mom, the things I do affect my dad.

They think about me whether they want to or not, and for my brother as well, just we're all together and we're all part of each other's story, and I think that's helped me recognize that I'll try to reach out. I'll try to show up and sometimes I won't show up, but I'll at least be cognizant that what I do does affect my step parents.

It does affect my step siblings, [00:37:00] and if I have the hope to have healthy relationships with them. It does take work to have these healthy relationships, even when our family is intact and all together in the home.

Joey: 100%. Yeah. Even again, in like healthy, intact families, like this stuff takes work. So that's, no, those are really good lessons.

I love if I'm hearing you right, you're Saying that gotta put in the time, prioritize it, show up, even if you don't feel like it. That's kind of underneath what you said. I kind of heard that. Not to say that you have like a disdain or don't want to be there, but it's easy in life to just like put other things ahead of relationships.

I've definitely seen that myself. Um, but then also, yeah, like trying to You know, cultivate that closeness if the other person's willing, we can't force anyone to do that. And then what I heard you two say is like, basically like try to build each other up and kind of live your life in a way that would maybe like make them proud or bring, you know, good things into their life.

Cause like you said, I think the way I've heard it said too is, yeah, even if we're like removed from our families, who we become is kind of formed by like what we think about and how we act. And [00:38:00] so we're going to affect them by the way that we think, the way that we act, even if we're not with them in the moment, because eventually, you know, we're going to be interacting with them and that will definitely have an effect on them if that's clear.

But yeah, it's definitely a lot of good lessons and what you said. So I appreciate you sharing all that. I was curious if, yeah, anything else to add in terms of the emotions, the habits or relationships before we move on.

Dylan: I think that was really a big, like, childhood thing of, like, when there's new people coming into the home.

I know, at least for myself, this is how I was as a child. I was very, like, resistant to new people coming in, and I, I would put unnecessary obstacles ahead of them. And, you know, whether it be, like, gossip about them or, like, just say, like, almost just, like, cover them with like lies or just think about them without actually having the conversations face to face to build the relationship.

So I've kind of recognized that since marriage is lifelong and family is, is lifelong, I don't think it's too late to try to, whether it be to repair or to forgive or to apologize. And sometimes I [00:39:00] still find myself apologizing at times to my, uh, step parents and saying like, this story came to mind. Did I really do that to you?

Okay. Maybe I'll do the dishes tonight or something like that. It's like, um, yeah, it's definitely not a, not a perfect or smooth story at times, but. Yeah, I found everyone appreciates if you can make small active, small active kindness, that's kind of just been one of my ways of trying to keep those relationships going in a way that I want them to.

And for me, I think later in life, then it became more of a challenge when I was starting to think, well, do I want to be married 1 day? And what does that mean for me? And what married couples am I looking up to? When my own story from my biological parents, I don't see that marriage that I want for myself.

So I kind of started to think more deeply about what is making their, their marriages healthy now with both of their spouses. And then whether it be like my grandparents set a wonderful examples for me, or just. [00:40:00] Starting to think and I had a real fear that even if I want to be married, I won't be married one day, like just thinking that there was like something wrong with me, even that I couldn't see for myself.

Like, oh, there's something other people can see that I can't and almost just overthinking marriage, which I don't know if that was Due to how my story went, or that was just a real fear that I experienced, but that's been something as a young adult where I was just thinking, it's absolutely impossible for that ever to very quick, even if I want to, it's not going to happen, like, so I don't know exactly where that fear came from, but that was a real.

It's a real struggle.

Joey: Yeah. No, I can relate. I felt that really strongly in high school It kind of hit me in the face then of I remember I'd started liking this like awesome girl And she was just like the type of girl I could see myself marrying one day But I was just terrified man that you know My relationship with her was one day gonna and the same way the same way my parents marriage had and so I definitely had to start Like facing that of like am I even capable of this because I felt incapable I felt kind of incompetent at [00:41:00] love and relationships and, you know, definitely fell into some unhealthy relationships, friendships, things like that.

And when I started dating, I was like, I really don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to build like a healthy relationship or I don't know how to, you know, pursue a woman properly. Cause I never really saw that growing up. And, um, I can relate so much. I think so many people like us have that fear of like, like, I don't think marriage actually lasts.

And if it does, then. That wouldn't last for me, and I definitely feel your pain there. I'm curious, feel free to say anything else you want about that, but I'm curious, like, what did you learn from those, like, healthy examples in your life about, like, what it does take to build a healthy marriage? Were there any lessons that kind of stick to the top of your mind of, like, yeah, like, you really need to do this or do that, or this is, like, a good reminder principle?

Dylan: That's something I'm currently watching and just like paying attention to, or even just, yeah, that's just something I'm looking at for the future of just, or even just looking around me and saying, how are these people happy? Because I, I started to wonder too, was it really even about happiness? [00:42:00] Like they seem happy, but it also doesn't look like they're making decisions based on happiness.

And so that's just been something that I've been thinking more about and especially like just in paying attention to my, my family or the people I'm close to. I just, in my experience, what I've seen is Sometimes they have like personality differences that it's on the surface. It's like, how is that, how is that working out so well, but they definitely.

And the marriages that I've seen that I look up to, they, they sacrifice for each other, they pursue each other and their unique ways of like uplifting each other and affirming each other's worth and their ideas. And it's really, I've, I've seen like beautiful ones where they're just like collaborating in life pretty much of just.

Growing together. And so that's, that's something I really admire in seeing that around me.

Joey: I love that. I love that whole like fact of like, they're working as a team. They're kind of going beyond their sacrificing, beyond maybe their comfort level or their sacrificing in order to like help the team win, so to speak.

Like, it's [00:43:00] not about individual personalities and not about like an individual person winning. It's about like the marriage or the family winning, which I love. I love seeing that in marriages as well. And it sounds like to like you mentioned pursuing each other and like the way that maybe makes the other person feel loved.

That's a principle I've noticed in really healthy marriages too. It's like each spouse loves. The other spouse and the way that they want to be loved in the way that they feel loved. And especially using like the love languages and things like that. It seems to be like a principle. It's true throughout really beautiful, healthy marriages.

And so, yeah, there's so many other lessons, but I love the ones that you mentioned. And I, for whatever it's worth, I don't mean to preach at you by any means, but just to affirm you like, dude, you're totally capable of it. You're totally capable to. Build a really healthy, beautiful marriage and family.

You're totally capable of even, yeah, just being the father that, um, you want to be and building again, the family for your own future children that you desire, like truly. And I know, I know you outside of this podcast, so I'm not just like making this up, but yeah, I'd say the same to [00:44:00] anyone listening to it's like, we're capable of that.

Like, it's not beyond reach. We feel like it might be at times, but the virtues that are needed to make that a reality are within reach. Like, we can't do it all on our own strength. We need other people in our life to help us get there, but it's possible. It's not something, like, so impossible we can't achieve.

And if you think of just anything in your life, not just talking to you, but everyone listening, where maybe you thought you couldn't achieve this, or you thought you couldn't achieve that, and then you did. And then you look back and be like, wow, okay, like, I really thought that was out of reach, but I stretched myself.

And again, with the help of other people, maybe with God's grace, I was able to do that. Marriage is the same thing. And I know people like us, like we feel really intimidated by it. We fear it. We don't, maybe we want it yet. We don't want it. And it can be this really like confusing, difficult thing, but like, really, I'm here to tell you guys, like you can do it.

Like, especially if someone like me can be married, I've almost been married seven years now and it hasn't been perfect. It's been a lot of challenges for me, but, but it's been really good. It's been really beautiful. It's like definitely made me a better man. If I can do it, like you guys certainly can do it.

So for whatever that's worth, I just want to give you a little bit of encouragement there and I appreciate you sharing so [00:45:00] much and I applaud your just desire to kind of pay attention to the lessons that you can learn, the principles you can learn from the marriages around you. That was super helpful and healing for me too.

Dylan: Thank you so much. Yeah. Those words are. really healing for me. And that really means a lot. And I'm sure it does for maybe someone else who's going through similar struggles of fear of marriage or fear that they are incapable of what they want for their life is that they can do it. So I think like that's really powerful.

Thanks for speaking that into me.

Joey: If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue, so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

And so, if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, Just go to restoredministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. Yeah, absolutely bro. I'm happy to. And we've [00:46:00] covered so much ground. Maybe we'll kind of close it there. I guess I, I guess the one question though, before we get to the end is like around healing and growth, you mentioned some things that have been helpful or healing for you.

I'm just curious if there were any other like tactics or anything that you found really helpful in your journey to like help you heal and becoming like the better, stronger, more virtuous you.

Dylan: One thing I was thinking of, this just brings me back to the point when we were talking about navigating romantic relationships as an adult child of divorce, and you're talking about maybe insecurity at first, or wondering how to pursue a woman in a romantic interest.

And I remember being so terrified of even the word date. Like, I remember just being terrified of just the concept of pursuing that one, pursuing someone like that. And what really healed for me is almost like a rehabilitation of that word, almost of just that's time spent getting to know someone else's world or a time where you get to just enjoy each other's company.[00:47:00]

And so I think something that's been really healing for me is just outside of the romantic context is just like a date with my stepmother or like. Date with my like just those times when we were just like, oh, let's let's go get coffee in the morning or you're going to get groceries. Let me go spend that time with you.

And I think it's or in friendship as like becoming a young adult and spending those times with friends. I've learned that each person has been like, intentionally designed to be a gift in a unique way, and it's taken a lot of healing to be able to see myself as someone who could be a gift to someone else, and to see other people as a gift.

A gift, and I think that's been just healing for me, even just like viewing the word date differently is like, you're someone worth spending time with. I'm glad that I'm able to have this conversation with you. And even if we don't like, like, in a situation of coming from you. Divorce or separation or those circumstances.

I think [00:48:00] there's so much left to the story. That's not the end of the story. And we don't really know what people, we don't know what gifts are going to come in. I would have never met my stepdad or never met my stepmom. Most likely, you know, and yeah, so that's just something I think about sometimes.

Joey: I love that I love that that there's like so much left in the story that we haven't like gotten to yet that we haven't seen I think that's really powerful and I like like that kind of redefinition of a date too because I agree I think I don't know exactly why but it almost makes me think that our experience of like Marriage and romance from our parents can often feel like really broken and heavy.

And so we almost like tend to project that on our future relationships and even something as simple as going on a date, that we almost like think that like, oh my gosh, this like little thing of like asking a girl out or going on a date can be like this big heavy thing when it's really supposed to be this really like really Beautiful thing.

This thing that, yeah, maybe there's nerves involved. Of course, that's something that's natural, but I would hope, you know, that that's not a bad thing because it shows it like, wow, I [00:49:00] think something of this person, like, I think they're special. And I, I like think highly of them. I want to kind of live up to, you know, what I think of them, whatever.

Um, but yeah, I've maybe I've seen that in my life too, where like romantic relationships can just feel like really heavy. Can really feel really big, maybe partly because of what we experienced growing up. So I think that's like a cool lesson. I love that thing you said about like feeling, knowing that you're a gift too.

I remember, um, in college, like sharing with a friend of mine, I was telling her, I'm like, you know what, if I'm just honest, I was vulnerable with her. I'm like, I honestly feel like a gift that's like not worth giving, or at least like not worth keeping, like I can do kind of like the surface level, the flashy, the like kind of keep someone interested for a little bit, but, um, I'm afraid that like once they get beneath the wrapping paper, they're not going to really like what they see.

And, uh, and then they'll want to leave. And, and I definitely feared that, like, abandonment. I feared, like, someone walking away, kind of like I saw in my parents marriage. And so, um, so yeah, I was definitely like, again, going back to what I said before, like having men in my life and just friends, like guys and girls who just loved me, even with the imperfections, that was like super healing and showed me, proved to me, [00:50:00] like, no, you're worth loving.

You are a gift. You have a lot to offer, not just from what you can do, but just like in your presence as a human. Like, just being in people's lives and the goodness you can bring into their lives through the way you love them and build them up, um, you can certainly be a gift. And, and now, you know, thank God I'm at a point where, like, I do feel that.

You know, it took me a while, like, it was just something in my head that I kind of repeated, but then again, through the friendships and the love that I experienced, now it's like something I definitely, like, feel. like deep in my bones, like at my core. And I really want that for everyone listening as well.

So yeah, I love the fact that you, you brought that up and I think it is possible to, you know, for anyone listening who maybe isn't in that spot where you like really believe at a deep level that you're a gift, like I'm here to tell you you are, and you have so much to offer more than you can even imagine.

So I thank you for bringing that up. It's such a good point.

Dylan: Yes. For the listener, you, you are a gift. And like we were talking about earlier of trying to manufacture worth or put things together to. Appear like a gift worth giving or a gift worth keeping. It's actually. useless because you were a gift before you tried to do any of [00:51:00] those things, a gift now.

And I think that's, yeah, likewise, that's what I hope for, for all of the listeners to feel in your bones, like you said, that your gift worth giving and keeping.

Joey: I love that, man. That's a great note to end on. There's so much more we could say, and it'd be awesome to have you back another time. I wanted to ask if you would tell us a little bit about your business, um, you had mentioned your book kind of in passing and I have to say like Dylan gave me a copy of his book for my daughter and uh, Lucy is three years old at this time.

I think she was like two at that time or something. And so I've read it to her multiple times. It's on her shelf and it's just, it's a really amazing, beautiful book. And I really enjoyed it. So thank you for that gift. And I'd love to, for you to tell everyone, especially maybe people listening who have young people in their life, like kids or maybe they're a new mom or a new dad or, you know, Yeah.

Anyone with kids in their life. I think your book is like a great gift and a great, just a great story. A great, great content that kind of shows a lot of what we're talking about. Like you have inherent value. You're, you're worth dying for. Like you are a gift. So tell us a little bit about your business, how people can get the book, how they can [00:52:00] find you online.

Dylan: Yes. Thanks for mentioning that. I'm glad that you have the book for, for Lucy. I started this in high school. I think a lot of this could stem back to my story, and a lot of my childhood was spent being pretty quiet, and so I would be often the one in the classroom drawing pictures and writing, and so that's what this, actually, the book came from, was I was in class, and I drew this and wrote this, and this is kind of directly from the notebook without any Eraser or anything, this is just one of those days in the classroom that came to life when I learned how to do graphic design, but I learned how to do graphic design.

Then I, I grew up playing basketball. So I was like, alright, now I'm making shoes. Now I'm making shorts for basketball players to wear. Now that now that I'm drawing on a computer. Now, I want to do this, like, as much time as I can. So I started a business called. Radical Love is the name and you can find it on RadicalLoveCommunity.

com and I'm just really passionate about sharing stories like this book [00:53:00] or I draw and create clothes for, for babies, for young people, for athletes. I have a lot of priests that wear the brand, a lot of professional athletes or people from so many different diverse communities. So I really. I'm just passionate about sharing this, sharing this story about how all of our stories is the story of being radically loved into existence.

So, so worth it that God became human and died for us. And so worth it that we're invited to spend forever in paradise. And that's just my passion with radical love.

Joey: I love it, man. So good. We'll make sure to throw the links in the show notes and remind me the full name of your book, just so everyone can hear it.

Dylan: My book is called God's Little Kiddo.

Joey: Love it. And can they get it on Amazon or do they buy it through your website?

Dylan: They can do it either way. Amazon, my website. I'm working on getting it in more libraries and more schools across the U. S., but it's always available for quick shipping on Amazon. It's probably the easiest way.

Joey: Cool. Love it, man. Just in your spare time when you're not in college and playing [00:54:00] multiple sports and doing all the things. So you're such an impressive dude. I, uh, it's really good to talk with you. A couple of final questions before we close out. If your parents were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

What would you say to them?

Dylan: I think there's just so much that I didn't see. So many conversations, so many sacrifices that I didn't see that they would have had to make it. As peaceful as possible for me, and I really appreciate that, that they took the time to say, all right, you're taking him to school.

You have him on these days, even if there was hurt behind whose family I was with, or if I'm spending more time at 1 than the other, they really made those sacrifices for me to make sure that both of them were there for me and make sure that. I didn't have to see a conflict. I didn't have to see a lot of, like, arguing or yelling back and forth or any of those.

I was really, I was spared from. And I was just given support from both sides, and I can't really [00:55:00] calculate how much that's, that's helped me. And I also don't know what that took from either of them to make that, make that happen. That's just what I have to say to them is thank you for, thank you for that.

And if there's hurt behind which family I was with more or hurt behind, you know, how things ended up. Like we're still here now and I think there's so much growth yet to come for us.

Joey: Beautiful. I love that man. Yeah, I know. And from everything you said about your parents, I definitely admire their ability to like put you first and even kind of look beyond some of their own pain.

It sounds like they did a lot of that. So really, really, really good. Thank you again for being here. I really appreciate it. I yeah, love your story and you're again such an impressive man So excited to see you at some point in Florida. And yeah, thanks for all the good work You're doing with your business as well.

And I just want to give you the final word What advice would encouragement would you give to someone listening right now? Who maybe is the younger you like they're listening to you know, and in those shoes of where you were some years ago But what would you say to them?

Dylan: I would [00:56:00] say Especially if they're a young man listening, or also for the girls as well who are growing up, whether it be in a blended family or a family of divorce, is that that part of your story will affect you and it's not something to do.

Like, forget about, but it's because I think as a young person growing up, you can be tempted to say, Oh, that was, that was a while ago, or it's been some years now. So I'm not going to think about that. But I think giving yourself the permission to be able to think about it to wonder, how am I, how am I really doing?

Some of that work in healing, whether it be healing in relationship with your parents, or offering some more forgiveness for just how the things, how things went. I think it can be really valuable to not hide from that pain, but sort of see what, what life is teaching you right now and understand that.

You're a young man of worth, you're a young woman of worth, and you're going to be a blessing in so many people's lives, and don't try to [00:57:00] get your worth from your story, or don't try to, like, look for random role models. Instead, just try to, try to do the healing within yourself and with your family when it's safe, and with positive, healthy role models that You would actually want to be like, and actually have a life like theirs, not just going for wherever the validation or the intention is.

Joey: That wraps up this episode, by the way, if you want to share your story with us, if you come from a broken family and you want to just tell someone about what you've been through, we'd love to hear it. You can do that anonymously at restored ministry.

com slash story, or by just clicking the link in the show notes.

And if this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow on your podcast app, whether that's Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, whatever. Not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more that the apps will actually suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We always appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find [00:58:00] the podcast as well.

In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#140: Hardest Part of the Divorce: Seeing My Siblings Struggle | Anthony

The hardest part of your parents’ divorce or family breakdown is seeing the people you love suffer. 

That was true for my guest today who happens to be my older brother, Anthony: Watching our siblings struggle was the hardest part for him.

In this episode, you’ll hear us compare stories about our parents’ divorce from our perspectives as siblings, plus:

• How Anthony had a sense of, “This is not how things ought to be” and a little about how a family ought to be.

• How he was automatically made the man of the house when he shouldn’t have been and the effects of that.

• How healing is not a one-size-fits-all, the imperfections of certain types of therapy, and a new healing method that’s been effective for him.

• To parents listening: Tips on discussing your divorce with your children without oversharing.

If your parents are divorced or struggling in their marriage and watching your siblings suffer has been hard for you, this episode is especially for you.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] What was life like for you during the separations, the divorce?

Anthony: It was kind of hell, if I'm being honest. So like that whole time was like the hardest times of my life. Like the tapestry of my life or our family's life is being torn apart. And at the same time, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was like, incredibly helpless.

I was kind of an intermediary. I remember a lot of times kind of getting in between mom and dad and trying to like talk them to the other person's side. As a child in that situation you had this like gut instinct that this is not how things ought to be.

Joey: You mentioned anxiety, you mentioned like pressure, stress, but were there any other emotional problems that you experienced through all that?

Anthony: I think as a child What you want to know is like that things are secure, that you're safe. I remember looking out the window and there being like these police cars. And you're like, Holy shit. Like what, you know, like what's going on here.

Joey: Welcome to the resort podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you.

We help you heal your [00:01:00] brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle. And build a better life. My guest today is actually my older brother, Anthony. He grew up in the Chicagoland area as the oldest of six kids, where he played every sport imaginable. Uh, he double majored in philosophy and theology at Franciscan university of Steubenville, where he captained and starred on the baseball team being awarded the Kuzma cup as an outstanding scholar athlete.

After graduation, Anthony taught theology. He did youth ministry and coached baseball for several years. He now works in the golf industry as the director of food and beverage operations at a golf club in Illinois. Anthony is a proud uncle and loves spending time with his niece and nephew, actually my kids, and he still enjoys sports traveling and in his words, it's a degenerate fantasy football player.

Really excited for this conversation. If you come from a divorced or broken family, the hardest part is seeing the people that you love. Suffer that was true for my brother, for Anthony, he said, watching his siblings struggle was the hardest part for him. And in this episode, you'll hear us compare [00:02:00] stories of our parents divorce from our perspectives as siblings.

And you'll hear us talk about how divorce is almost always a lose lose for the children, how Anthony had the sense of this is not how it ought to be. And we talk a little bit about how a family ought to be, how he was automatically made the man of the house when he really shouldn't have been in the effects.

of that on him, how he, uh, his experience healing, but how healing is not one size fits all and the imperfections of certain therapy models, certain therapy types, and a new healing method that's been effective for him, uh, to any parents listening, we talk about some tips on how to talk with your children about your divorce without oversharing.

And then Anthony shares how he struggled in his relationship with God and what he learned that has helped him heal. And so if your parents are divorced or struggling in their marriage and watching your siblings suffer has been the hardest part for you, this episode is especially for you. Two things before we dive in.

You'll hear me share details about my parents divorce that I don't usually go into as much detail about. And without changing my story, I often simplify it on this show to make [00:03:00] it a little bit more concise. Um, but I'm really glad that we were able to dive into those details and I'm able to share those with you guys.

And also in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this.

Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot from this episode, still going to benefit you. And so with that, here's our conversation. Welcome on the show. Good to have you here.

Anthony: Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having me, bud.

Joey: You are the first family member to come on the show.

So I'm excited to, uh, just see things through your perspective. One of the things that I've always heard is like, as a parent, you're never the same parent to each child. And I think it's true, like as a sibling within a family, like. You each perceive the family and even your parents differently. So I'm really interested to like learn from you and see maybe how you perceive things differently.

And I perceive things differently. So yeah, with that, I'm curious from your perspective, what was [00:04:00] home like in the years and the months before mom and dad split?

Anthony: Ooh, I guess like, so there was kind of this, you know, kind of waves of, cause the original time that, you know, about 10 years prior mom and dad had split for a while or been separated for a while.

And then they got back together and it was kind of like this miraculous reconciliation to some degree, or at least for a while. Right.

Joey: Totally.

Anthony: But in terms of like the months. The months prior, maybe not months and years, the months prior were pretty strenuous. I think it all started like when our uncle died in August of 2012.

And it kind of put our dad, understandably, in a very difficult place, you know, dealing with like the second traumatic death in his family in his lifetime. And so, you know, kind of You know, re triggered all that trauma and you know, so it brought it up to the surface again and I think, you know, kind of put him in a, in a whirlwind and then so fast forward, like six months later when mom and you [00:05:00] know, when mom and dad ended up, you know, the filing for the divorce was made, you know, the months before we're tense.

I remember Like when that finally went through, or it finally, like there was finally a separation, just remember realizing, like feeling my body shaking and realizing, like, I think I've been shaking for like months, you know, I just remember this distinct moment of feeling that. And it was, yeah, it was just like, it's just like, it was a very difficult period.

Like it's, you know, when you're a child in that situation. And I mean, at that time I was. You know, I was older. I was in my twenties. So an adult child, you can say, but as a child in that situation, you had this like gut instinct, this like intestinal fortitude that this is not how things ought to be. And like in that whole time, well, pretty much for most of my life, but especially in that whole time, like I really had this, this is not how things ought to be.

This is not how things ought to be. And it's like this disharmony or this, what do you call it? And what do you call it? When music, when the notes don't, you know how [00:06:00] the notes go together, but then there's a time when the notes don't go together. I can't think of the term. Yeah.

Joey: Discordant or disharmonic or

Anthony: something like that.

Discordant. Yeah. I think it's discordant or something along those lines. Yeah. It's like, you know, musical notes were, you know, like C, A, you know, D minor, all these things were made to go together. But like in, And different types of music, they play like discordant notes. And that's how it felt like that period is just like this, like discordant notes.

It's like intestinal sense that like, this is not how things ought to be.

Joey: That's really good. I think part of the reason that people miss how. traumatic divorce and the dysfunction that precedes it can be is because they don't have this like understanding of how things ought to be. Because if family life is whatever you want it to be or whatever, yeah, whatever you define it as, um, there's no like objective standard of what it like should live up to.

Then I think there's often this perception that like, well, that was just Not a big deal. It's not a big problem. But obviously the stories that we hear all the time and the [00:07:00] research show that, so it's really interesting that you kind of had this thought, this is not how it ought to be. Did you have an idea or understanding of how things ought to be?

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, like, we were blessed to grow up with some families, particularly one family, right? That I think really, like you just looked at them and you're like, this is how it's supposed to be, you know, and it kind of was like a, they're like a beacon of peace amid like the storms of like a troubled marriage, you know, and, um, so having that, and then also seeing a bunch of other couples, like I can think of a couple off the top of my head that you're like, look at that and you see that and you're like, I want that because that's not what I grew up with.

But you just know, like, you don't, you know, it's almost like self evident truth, like, you don't need anyone, it's like the little kid who just knows that something isn't fair. That kid couldn't define justice, but they know that something isn't fair. And it's the same thing, like, kind of, I think, in those situations.

You couldn't define what's wrong particularly, or you couldn't maybe put it into words, [00:08:00] but you know it when you see it. Um, that, that being the right thing. And I think that was like very much my experience growing up.

Joey: Yeah, no, that's super good. Wow. I definitely see what you're saying. And I thought it might be helpful for everyone listening to maybe go through the timeline as an overview and feel free to correct or add anything you'd like.

So for everyone listening, so our parents actually separated twice and they actually began a divorce on both occasions. To my knowledge, you can correct that. You're right. Yeah. Yep. So I was a 10, 11. When it first happened, and then you would have been what, 13, 14 at that time, about? Yep. Yep. So then, um, that was the first instant they were separated for what, a year and a half, I think?

That's the knowledge that I had. That's what it sounded about, right?

Anthony: Yeah, it was pretty much spring of when I was 14, I would say, until like December of when I was 15. Okay. Yeah. So that makes up about a year and a half. Yeah.

Joey: So spring of 2003 to December of 2004.

Anthony: Yeah, exactly.

Joey: Okay. Yeah. I [00:09:00] remember it was around their anniversary actually that dad came home.

Yeah. So that was like, Anthony mentioned that it was a kind of a miraculous event. They went on this retreat. Um, some of you might be familiar with like the retrovive retreats. And that was from, to my knowledge, like pretty instrumental. It would, maybe it wasn't the whole picture to, um, To bringing them back together because they, like I said, had started the legal divorce proceedings, whatever, and, um, and then they kind of changed course and got back together.

Um, the way I always explain it then is that it was good that they were together, but things were very broken, you know, at home within the marriage. And that's not to like pass judgment on our parents. I think they would both describe it that way if they were here right now. And then fast forward about 10 years, so I am, I think, 20 at the time, or I guess 19 going on 20, and it was August, like you said, of 2012, so I'm 19 at the time, you would have been, what was it?

Anthony: Uh, 23, 23, sorry, you to

Joey: turn 23 and I was about to turn 20. Yeah. Anyway. So, so for, just for [00:10:00] context, like I was at home, I was, I went to junior college. I took the semester off ironically when our uncle passed away and that's when, you know, understandably so it just really weighed on my dad and that's kind of put the things in emotion like Anthony said before.

And then later that. So that was the fall, that was August, so go into like the spring, and March was when the divorce was filed, if I'm remembering right. So that was kind of just the timeline of how things went down, and then they, our parents, um, went through, uh, actually a three year divorce process, if I'm getting that right, too.

Yeah. It was very, like, I remember someone saying, like, you know, a year is about average, two years is, like, very long, three years is, like, insane, and that was the process. Um, so in some way, we went through this twice, and both each kind of had their particular, like, struggles and details, which we may or may not get into in depth.

Um, but certainly both really difficult and traumatic, I would say. So anyway, with that kind of timeline in place, hopefully that helps you guys understand kind of where we're at in the story. So I'm curious. Um, yeah. So, so you, [00:11:00] you went through kind of what led up to the separation, the divorce. Is there anything else you'd like to add in that?

Or do you feel like we're at a good spot?

Anthony: No, I, I think we're at a pretty good spot. Yeah. I think it was just, you know, you know, of course you can't limit it to like those. And, you know, nothing is, or almost nothing is, you know, just only sparked by one thing. There's usually a lot of things that play into it.

So I don't, I'm not as simplistic as saying like our uncle's death started all this. Cause obviously with the timeline you described it didn't.

Yeah.

Anthony: But you know, there's always kind of, um, I think there was, you know, things happening before that, that definitely contributed. So

Joey: yeah. Cool. Okay. So just to, again, reiterate, you were originally what?

14? 15? 15. When mom and dad split and then you were 22 when they divorced or when they started their divorce, at least, and then, um, and how old are you now?

Anthony: I am. I'd rather not reveal that. I'm just kidding. I'm 35.

Joey: Okay, cool. Yeah, that's helpful for context. And for the record, I [00:12:00] did know that. And so I guess we'll kind of maybe treat both instance separately.

Well, separation separately. So how did you learn about the separation, the divorce, and what was your reaction to it?

Anthony: So I learned about it. Mom came to me and told me that she was going to get a divorce, you know, because she was scared. She didn't feel safe. You know, basically she had kind of reached her wits end.

And so I was Kind of a little bit shocked, but a little bit not surprised. And I actually, I'm pretty sure I told her like, yeah, like after a long time of her, like talking about it and me saying, don't do it at this time, I was like, yeah, I think you should do it because things had gotten that bad and I didn't.

I just remember overhearing some like just conversations that kind of made my blood, you know, like gave me chills, you know, they were kind of just that disturbing, you know, and not something a kid should be hearing or of any age. And so I was remember thinking like, well, you know, it couldn't, couldn't get any worse [00:13:00] than this.

So maybe a, you know, a separation or divorce is, you know, not a terrible idea.

Joey: Yeah, and I think, um, yeah, I know we're kind of being careful with some of the details just to protect mom and dad for everyone listening, because we don't want to disparage their names, but we're also we're trying to be honest about it too.

So it's definitely a difficult line to walk. But, um, so that was like that later instance. And I'm curious about the one earlier on how you learned about that, because I have a kind of a version of the story in my head, but I'm curious if yours, like when you were 14, how did you learn about that? What was your reaction to it?

Anthony: Yeah, that one. I don't remember. I mean, of course it's like similar buildup in a certain sense, but I just remember that one kind of crescendoing and, you know, well, I remember dad, like basically kind of like had somewhat moved out and then one day, you know, mom was decided she didn't want him there. And even though he had been coming and going and not really there for a while.

And so I think I just have this memory of like, I don't know, like. I don't know, [00:14:00] like bags of clothes or like, you know, things being gone. And so that, you know, as a kid, that's hard, like to just like the ambiguity is hard, right? Cause like, I think, I think as a child, what you want to know is like that things are secure, that you're safe, that, you know, things are going to not change that much in that radical of a way.

Right. And so like that, you know, the kind of like the coming and going the, you know, where's dad or, you know, why are his clothes out? That's like, that's, that was really hard. And, um, yeah, so that's what I remember of that, like beginning. Right. And then there was, I think there was an incident and then it, it led to, you know, it led to basically after that.

Um, basically, yeah, the separation for a year and a half. And then I think mom had like a restraining order and that, you know, that was kind of a tough dynamic. Cause it's like, you couldn't talk to your dad and then things like that. So yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to go on [00:15:00] and on, but that's, that's what I remember of that.

Joey: Okay. Yeah, no, I have similar memories. I, um, I think one difference, which is interesting to highlight is that. I don't think I was aware of, like, the beginning stage as much. I think it was a bit of, obviously, you were older, but I think it was a bit oblivious to it. I don't know if we were told something else was going on or what the deal was, like, if that was just, like, out working or something like that.

But I do remember very clearly, I think it was, like, a Saturday. I remember I had a baseball game. I remember our neighbors took us out of the house. to like the park and that's when there was I guess this situation where like that was dad's like official exit from the house without going into many details I don't think it was violent or anything by any means but like the police were involved to just like

Anthony: yeah it wasn't violent at home at least but I think it there was some other situation that that had kind of led to the police being there and that yeah and so also like you mentioned that point as a young kid That's like tremendous.

I, cause I remember, I, I remember looking out the window and there being like these police cars and you're like, holy [00:16:00] shit, like what, you know, like what's going on here and that, you know, that is like very confusing as a young child.

Joey: I remember that. I remember that, um, we were, yeah, we were intentionally taken from the home and we, we'd kind of grown up like around police officers and firemen and kind of looked up to them and understood that their job was like serious.

And, um, there were even some instances earlier on where we were like. We help the police with certain things. We won't go into that. Um, but, but, uh, so, so we kind of understood like

Anthony: we even had a nickname. Do you remember that?

Joey: I do remember that. Um, what was the nickname that you mentioned? People are wondering.

It

Anthony: was, uh, it was the Ponerellic Crime Stoppers. Cause we, there were like these two instances where we like, we caught like crimes in the act or, or people in places they shouldn't have been.

Joey: Yeah.

Anthony: And so this officer, um, said, man, you guys are the Ponerelli Crime Stoppers.

Joey: And I think they happened pretty close together, which is funny.

And then there's Yeah, it was within

Anthony: a Short window. Yeah, yeah.

Joey: At, [00:17:00] at the risk of making it sound super heroic, there was like nothing else that happened, in our life, like outside of that.

Anthony: It wasn't, it wasn't that big of, it wasn't that big of a deal, but Yeah. Yeah.

Joey: We probably thought we were Batman, but it was No, that, that was, yeah, I remember that there was like, um, we actually lived in like a pretty nice area.

It wasn't like high end area by any means. I wouldn't say that at least. But it was like, you know, middle class and there was a house across the street where there was like some sort of drug activity going on. It was kind of an anomaly for the area from what I remember. And um, and we kinda helped them.

take down that house. So yeah, pretty like we didn't do anything crazy, but we kind of fed information and reported on it. So anyway, I did not expect to go into that in this interview, but, um, yeah, so, okay. So yeah, so we had like this context of like police being serious. And then, um, yeah, we went to the park that day.

The neighbors took us. And then we came back too soon. I don't know if you remember that, but it was like, we weren't supposed to come back that soon because that's when we saw the police and the driveway and we're like, what is going on? Like we thought maybe someone was hurt or something happened. Um, and then I don't think we got many [00:18:00] answers from the neighbors.

And I remember me, like we went to another park and we're like. Trying to play. And it was just like, obviously top of mind, at least for probably you and me, maybe Gerard. Cause for context too, we've there's six kids in the family. I'm number two and Anthony's number one. So Anthony's one, I'm two. And then Gerard would be, um, right under us and the other siblings won't go into as much right now, but anyway, that, yeah.

So that day, I remember when we came home that day, um, that's when mom kind of explained what was going on. Did she explain anything to you prior to that? I'm curious.

Anthony: Yeah, she did. And, um, Yeah. So I had kind of known, I think, honestly, I had known for years that there was trouble brewing and, um, which I don't really think was a blessing.

Um, I think it was more, I think I was kind of. given too much at too young of an age, but, but yes, I knew, I knew that something was wrong for a while. And, uh, so I don't think, you know, from my perspective that day, it wasn't as shocking in terms of like the, what it was happening, but it was more shocking, like how it was happening.

Joey: I see. That makes sense. What advice for any [00:19:00] parents listening or young people who like maybe want to convey information to parents, what's your advice for like. How much they should share with their kids. And I know there's maybe two scenarios that I'm asking this. And one is like kind of an ongoing sharing of like seeking emotional support from your children, which we've talked about a lot in the show.

It has like a lot of dangerous pitfalls. Um, but maybe more specifically with the actual. Event of like a separation or a divorce like what's appropriate to share what's appropriate not like what you shouldn't you share sort of thing I'm curious if you have any principles or advice because it is tricky because like on one end if you don't share anything It leaves the kids sitting there like I have no idea what's going on.

I want some level of understanding. On the other end, if you share too much, it can be a huge burden too. Um, I felt like there was, in our instance, to no malice of mom or dad, I felt like there was maybe too much that was shared where I felt like I wish I wouldn't have known as much, but I'm sure there's other scenarios of people listening [00:20:00] where they like feel like they're even more so in the dark.

So I'm curious if what's the balance between the two, especially as it relates around the Event of like a separation or a divorce beginning.

Anthony: I think a couple of things. I think like, well, I think it's a difficult for parents because I was definitely an inquisitive kid and I wanted, you know, I like want to know why mom was upset.

I wanted to know what was going on in different situations, but that also ended up knowing those things at that age became a huge burden on me. Frankly, to some degrees, you know, still has remained to this day. So I think a couple of guidelines, I think you shouldn't share anything that isn't like age appropriate, that they're not ready to like here or to maybe not even here, maybe to deal with at that age.

You know what I mean? And so like, and I also think that to some degree, like as a parent, you can't be just confiding in your child. You know what I mean? At a young age. And I also, I think at any age, but I think particularly at a young age, like that your children shouldn't be the people you go to, to [00:21:00] discuss these things with because.

You know, a they're affected on both sides, right? So it's, it's kind of not fair to only give them one side, but also I just think it, um, you know, it gives them, it kind of puts an undue weight on their shoulders where they're already like carrying a weight, you know what I mean? And so, so I just think like, you know, there's other terms that come in here, like triangulation and things like But I think like, those are real things and like When parents do that, it definitely can make it harder on the child than it needs to be.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists.

Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events In their lives are less depressed or less anxious. They're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the [00:22:00] same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story, since you're going through things that you've been through.

And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story, and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry.

com slash story, or just by clicking the link. In the show notes. I totally agree. Yeah. And I love what you said about like the age appropriateness. I know sometimes parents may struggle to know what's age appropriate. Um, one thing that I've heard said in different contexts is, is that you kind of let them ask questions.

You maybe give them basic, simple information. And then if they're curious, you make an opportunity for them to like ask the questions and then you kind of satisfy their curiosity. And then leave it at that. You don't share more than that. I've heard that as kind of a guideline. Is there anything you would tweak or add to

Anthony: that?

I think that's a great guideline. And I also think you have to like kind of moderate your own desire to be heard with balancing that with [00:23:00] like your child's innocence, essentially, you know what I mean? And their, their right to be protected from, you know, what is bad in this world. Um, not that you're going to perfectly insulate them, but I think when you let them know too much, too young, it has kind of this.

You know, or can have this like, I don't know if the right term is eroding, but this effect of where it, you know, it kind of matures them too quickly. And they miss out on some of these experiences and kind of like the carefreeness for lack of a better term of youth that I think is essential. And I think when you put too much in too young of a kid, they grow up too quick and then they spend some of their adulthood, you know, yearning after that.

Carefreeness of childhood that they were somewhat robbed of

Joey: couldn't agree more. And we've seen that a lot, um, with the different young people we've worked with. And it is, it's really a tragedy. And what we've seen too, is that kind of to go a little bit deeper into that whole dynamic of like triangulation or spousification where like one of the parents relies on.

Usually one [00:24:00] of the children, or maybe multiple children in a way that they shouldn't, in a way that their spouse is really supposed to provide the support, but since they're not there, the children are kind of like the next convenient option. And so they, yeah, share things that normally they wouldn't share, they shouldn't share, in an attempt to like, fill that very real need that they have.

And so I like what you said about, you know, kind of moderating your own desire to be heard, or what you said before, like you can take it to another source, which maybe isn't as convenient, like a relative, a sibling, maybe parents, a counselor, a pastor, friend, like someone like that. Um, it's not as convenient because your children are right there.

And you can like share things with them, but I think it does more damage. And I think it's often, um, what I've heard on this topic, we'll link to an episode from the awesome podcast, the place we find ourselves or Adam Young, the therapist, he goes into this a little, in a little bit more depth and he quotes some research and authors.

Um, but this whole idea, like it really can be so lethal because. The way he explains it, and you can jump in here at any point, he says basically like, yeah, mom or dad have like these real, real emotional [00:25:00] needs and then children are just, they're kind of wanting to help because they love their parents. And so they jump in and they listen and they empathize and maybe even like do things in order to help them.

But then they're, yeah, this unhealthy dynamic forms. And then over time, if that continues down that path, you, you know, have this really dysfunctional relationship, this unhealthy relationship that often leads to the. Child needing to pull away because they're like, this isn't healthy, but I don't really know what to do except like maybe leaving.

And then the parent is hurt by that. And then often there's then resentment that seeps in and then the child doesn't really want to talk to the parent so that it destroys the relationship. And that's like over, if you look at it on like a longer time horizon. So we'll link to that episode. He says it more articulately than I can, but, um.

But yeah, I thought that was like really interesting. And I think there's a lot of danger there that parents like really need to be aware of, especially if they're going through these like murky and painful waters of like separation and divorce.

Anthony: And I sympathize like with our parents and with parents in general, because like you said, it's like the people you care about the most are your [00:26:00] kids.

And so it's kind of tempting because they're in it with you, right? Like nobody else is like in the war if you will with you, right? They're in the foxhole with you So it's like very tempting I think to just like unload on them and then you probably feel like well, you know It's like they deserve to hear it.

They deserve to know it this and that but that being said I think You know, kind of, as you mentioned, you're putting your child in a very difficult situation, not only for that short amount of time, but for, in a certain sense, the rest of their life, because they're going to have to navigate this difficult relationship that essentially had too much of a burden on one person.

For years and years.

Joey: Totally. Yeah. And I like what you said, like, I think parents probably feel that burden of like, they deserve to know this, but I think what we would add is like, not all at once and not all the details.

Anthony: Right, right, exactly. And, and I think that like, listen, there's in different stages of youth, we expose kids to different things, to different responsibility, [00:27:00] right?

Like whatever your opinion of sex ed or of the birds and the bees talk is, and who should give it, take that away. But at a certain point, you deem that your child is ready for that, right? At a certain point, you deem that your child is ready to babysit, that they're ready to drive, that they're ready to have a phone, all these different things, right?

That they're ready to stay out past a certain time. And so, it's um, it's a gradual thing. It has to do with maturity with responsibility. But you don't deem it all at once. And sometimes, in these situations, I think our parents just Essentially break a lot of those barriers all at once and on a young mind on a young heart It's a lot to bear at you know, the age of 10 11 12 13 years old.

Joey: I agree I think if you want the best healthiest relationship you can have with your kids and that you need to put a lot of like Thought and prudence into what you're gonna share before you share it. I think that's another good principle of like Before you just kind of shoot from the hip and share something like really give a thought, is this something that they need to know?

And to what level do they need to know it? [00:28:00] And do they need to know it now? Maybe those are good questions.

Anthony: And is it going to be good? You know, good for them. And we're not, I think I can speak for you too, Joe, we're not advocating lying to your kids at all.

Joey: Like

Anthony: we're not supporting that. But I remember this, um, from my Christian moral principles class in college, I think it's from a book called the right and reason.

And this priest said, or I think he was quoting something. I think is. Name was Father Austin Fagothay, and he said, You always have to tell the truth, but you don't always have to tell the truth. You know, in other words, like, when you speak, you always have to say the truth, but you don't always have to speak, right?

Or you don't know what, you can just, you can just kind of say, you know what, this is not For this time.

Joey: Right. Would another version of that being like keeping things more general? Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. Um, all right. And I'm curious before we maybe go on in the timeline, how would you describe the marriage, the divorce?

Would you describe it as high conflict or low conflict? And just for everyone's context, who's listening. Uh, high conflict divorces typically involve abuse, [00:29:00] violence, maybe high degrees of dysfunction. And from the children's point of view, the problems are very overt and obvious. And so the children sometimes expect or even want a divorce or separation in those situations.

That's like high conflict where, yeah, there's a real like danger there that some needs to be done. Low conflict involves more covert. problems. Um, in these situations, children typically are like maybe blindsided by the separation of the divorce, or maybe they don't like fully see it coming. And so while they might know that mom and dad are facing some problems or some things that are wrong, uh, they typically wouldn't expect, um, a divorce, at least not like to the degree that you might think.

So I'm just curious from your perspective, maybe like separate both of those instances of when we were younger, when we were older. How would you pack those? Were they high conflict, low conflict, somewhere in between?

Anthony: I think it was kind of somewhere in between. Maybe, I don't know if there's a medium conflict, but kind of like, I think it fluctuated between those two, um, you know, certain periods of like high conflict.

I don't think violence was typically part of the [00:30:00] picture, but there was certainly a lot of like, I don't know, like I would say verbal abuse and just kind of like this overwhelming sense of like disease that kind of pervaded over it. And I think like, I think there was just like this like kind of underwhelming tension, not underwhelming isn't the right, like under, um, like kind of like under the radar tension that like you couldn't exactly quantify, but you could feel, you know, you could maybe put a name on it, but you could feel.

And I think I learned that years later. And so I think I would say, you know, for all those reasons, kind of like it fluctuated, but probably more towards high conflict, like based on the level of dysfunction.

Joey: The way I have seen it. Um, and this is just my perspective, so it's interesting, again, to see, like, even the kind of classification of low conflict versus high conflict might be dependent on the children's, like, perception, to some degree.

And I would say, like, the first separation, for me, was low conflict, because it truly came out of the blue. It blindsided me. It sounds like you were more aware of, like, it leading in that direction. Mom [00:31:00] shared things with you. She didn't with me. And so that like was blindsided me. And so that I would say was a little conflict.

Again, I knew there were some problems, but I didn't ever expect that to happen. Whereas when we were older and there was a second separation, that's when I would categorize that pretty clearly, in my opinion, from my perspective as high conflict, that's kind of, but if we were to average them out, I think like in between or kind of different waves, like you said before, that that would make a lot of sense.

Would you add anything to that?

Anthony: No, I would definitely agree that at the end, like it kind of reached its Peak, you know, at the end of the timeline we mentioned earlier, kind of, that was the worst of the worst, if you will.

Joey: Yeah, no, totally. So I'm curious, this is a kind of a big question, but like, what was life like for you?

You alluded to this already. What was life like for you during the separations, the divorce?

Anthony: Um, it was very difficult. Um, it was kind of hell if I'm being honest, you know, it was, you know, I think as the old, you know, I kind of had a, um, so like, as you know, the early separation [00:32:00] we mentioned, you know, at that age, I kind of felt from that time that I was kind of like the man of the house.

Yeah. And, and so it, that kind of like was hard, you know, obviously at that age, but then, you know, then dad came home and then it kind of was like a little bit of a relinquishing of those responsibilities or those duties. And then it kind of like came back into full. And I think like for me, I was, um.

Growing up I always wanted, like, I was like a fixer, right? I wanted everything to be okay. I was kind of an intermediary. I remember a lot of times, like, you know, kind of getting in between mom and dad and trying to, like, talk them to the other person's side. Um, so I guess, like, the image that I have to describe that time is that, like, your whole life I think it's kind of like a tapestry being built and what I, what I felt like, you know, when I was you know, 23, 24 and their, you know, their marriage was coming apart and [00:33:00] everything was ripped apart.

I felt like it was this tapestry that was my life that was built together and then, and kind of weave together. And then as they got divorced, you know, as it all happened, that it was like ripped, you know, kind of like straight down the middle and all these. different times and years that had been weaved together, um, were just kind of like ripped.

And I think that's a really, you know, a good, and, and, and with that ripping, it makes you broken and feel broken. And so, so like that whole time was like the hardest times of my life, you know, um, and kind of dealing with the fallout. And I think the hardest thing for me was wanting to, you know, when I've like talked to, um, different people about it.

You know, and in a lot of like family systems, there's a like hero child who wants to like save everybody. And I think I like identify with that a lot. And I think that it was hard for me because at that point I realized like I couldn't save everybody. And I felt like. You know, super helpless, you know, and to, [00:34:00] so it's essentially kind of these two things going on.

Like the tapestry of my life is being, or our family's life is being torn apart. And at the same time, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was like incredibly helpless. And it was the hardest thing for me. It was like to see my siblings suffer and to feel like that. You know, I, I couldn't give them what they need at the time and that, you know, that was, that was difficult and yeah, and I think to, to another degree, kind of to take it to a different point, I think a lot of like how we reference God is, you know, through our, family of origin.

And, you know, a lot of those images we have of God is through that. And so for me, when mom and dad reconciled, I saw that as like a very, a great sign and like a fact, you know, kind of like a sign of that they were back together. And I considered it, you know, as we mentioned earlier, like a small miracle.

And then, so when that kind of fell apart, It was hard, like it, it was hard for me in my faith [00:35:00] because I was like, wait a second, like, I referenced this as like this miracle. And then, you know, it kind of ceased to be. So I, you know, it, it left me questioning God and questioning where he was and, um, you know, how he could let it.

Joey: Yeah. No, I've had similar struggles for sure. And it was almost like, without going into this too much, like each of those instances, like separation one, separation two was kind of like were difficult in their own ways and like were wounding in their own ways and brought their own, like any kind of types of brokenness, though there like was this continuum too along the way.

So that was kind of my experience of it. But man, that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, like, it sounds like you were very self aware throughout the entire time, which is not true for everyone. I, I'm curious, kind of, was there a point when you realized, like, that all the dysfunction, the divorce, the separation were affecting you negatively, or did you maybe always know that?

Anthony: You know, I think I always knew it, kind of intuitively. I think, like, separation one, I had, I had a [00:36:00] lot of anger in me, and I knew it, you know, kind of as a, that's, you know, it was kind of a, You know, like we said the timeline earlier, but basically like 13 to 15, right? That's time of like in a man's life.

There's like, you know, introducing testosterone and all these different things. So I had a lot of, you know, kind of piss and vinegar and a lot of anger took out a lot of it, like kind of on the sports field and just in like competition, because that was like my, I think my way of regulating myself. And after you're like, yeah, I know I've played sports against you,

Joey: you're always the measured one, never the violent, but,

Anthony: um, but yeah, I think that, you know, that's kind of how it came out then.

And then, and then I think as a young, you know, kind of like, I've seen this in a lot of young people, a lot of siblings, I think like. There's a lot of fluctuation in life and a lot of growth and a lot of changing, right? Your brain doesn't stop growing until you're 25 or 26. [00:37:00] And so I think a lot of times you get to, you know, like after college and you think like everything's going to go like perfectly after that.

And then you realize like, wait, you know, I was actually talking to this with. Some mutual friends of ours recently, it's like, it's like you get to that age and you realize like, wait, you know, I have a lot of like unpacking to do from my, my childhood, my adolescence from my, you know, the family I grew up in.

And it's kind of, I think starts at that point to manifest. So, so I guess it was two folded to answer your question. Like. You know, a lot of anger as a youth and a lot of kind of like hiding from the pain. And then as an adult, um, it's a young adult kind of having that, all that trauma relived and not really being able to hide from it, you know, having to deal with that, I think I dealt then with like a lot of anxiety and a lot of just like a lot of pressure and a lot of stress.

And it just, you know, it manifested itself in a lot of different ways.

Joey: Thanks for sharing. I, uh, yeah, I know you've been through a lot, for [00:38:00] sure. I think, I think there's a special, like, for any firstborns listening, I think there's a special, like, burden, pain, and I don't know what the other words would be, that the oldest two carry, like you said.

Especially if dad left the house, which is statistically, I think that's, like, the most common occurrence. Then you step into that role. And I'd imagine whether it's a Boy or girl, they'd be kind of forced into helping around the house. And then I imagine, yeah, if like, if mom were to leave and yeah, that would kind of be a different dynamic of especially the oldest girl.

I don't know how that would play out. But anyway, that the oldest, I think definitely carries like a big, big burden and definitely saw you carry that over the years, which I appreciate, by the way. I know it's like a, it's really like a lose lose situation. Like in the military, they, when they're doing training with like, especially like special people in special operations.

And I think probably like. General like soldiers Marines and things like that They put them in these scenarios that are a little lose lose situations where their only intent is like to humble them and to teach them that sometimes like you can't win and sometimes you have to just like minimize your losses and that's the way I see the older children or any [00:39:00] child like being put into some of these like parental roles Is it's like, okay, there's some level of necessity here.

Like if that doesn't happen, then what's going to happen to the family and the kids. But at the other end, it's like, this really isn't good for them. This is, they're not meant to fill this role. They're not meant to like, especially for a long period of time, they're not meant to like be this type of person.

And so, yeah, I, um, definitely I'm sorry you had to go through all that, but, um, does that resonate with you?

Anthony: Yeah, it definitely does. And I, I appreciate your kind words, Joe. Yeah, I think it, it definitely does. Like I definitely have. You know, felt the burden of being in the firstborn. And I think, especially, you know, I think there's, you know, generally a burden being the firstborn, but in these situations, it kind of takes on a different meaning and it kind of, you know, really puts you in some of those, like almost, it feels like do or die situations.

You know what I mean? And that the definition of lose, lose. Is so fitting because like a lot of these situations when you're pitted against one or one of the parents [00:40:00] or in between both of the parents, right? Like a, the definition of a dilemma is a dilemma. It's between two things. You know, that is essentially what this is.

You're between the two things of your parents. And it's like, if you choose your, you know, the old saying, you're damned if you do, and you're damned, if you don't like, it's a bunch of those situations, just kind of like a continuous line of them. You just keep choosing and you pick one, you're damned. And you pick the other, you're damned, at least in your parents eyes.

And it's just like, it's the lose, lose. And so I think like, yeah, I think it is like, I feel very deeply when I see children in these situations and, you know, particularly the oldest, because I know that, you know, they carry a lot of weight and that a lot of like unfair things are put on them. And in a certain sense, like they're robbed of their, of what should be happening that age, like their childhood, their adolescence, their teenage years.

Where they should be, you know, not thinking of, you know, like I need to take care of all these things or take care of mom or take care of dad or take care of my [00:41:00] siblings, you know, or maybe I should go home now because my younger siblings like are missing me instead of just like being carefree and present in what they're doing.

Joey: Yeah. No, it's a totally different type of like upbringing

Anthony: that, uh, that really is.

Joey: Yeah, that it really does, like, stunt your growth in a lot of ways. There's some benefits that come from what I've seen, like some virtues that can develop, um, but I think it does stunt your growth in a lot of ways. And I experienced some of that as well.

And yeah, I remember a lot of people making the observation about, like, us, especially you and me. Um, I'd imagine that someone goes down the line even further too, but just, like, being, like, more mature for our age and that. And the one level you think of it as a compliment, but when you kind of dig into it, it's like, wait, wait, why, why are they more mature for the age?

It's like, well, actually that's not a great thing.

Anthony: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny you bring that up. Cause that was a common thing said about us. And at the time you think like, yeah, I'm so mature, but it's, you know, when you look at the reasoning, it's not as great.

Joey: No, totally. And I remember like getting along better with like older.

kids like even your friends or even [00:42:00] adults than I did like with kids my own age in some respect, um, because I could, I don't know if I could relate with them or yeah, there was like that. It felt like that we were kind of forced to that level. So without belaboring that too much more, um, I'm curious when it came to, yeah, just, you mentioned anxiety, you mentioned like pressure, stress, but were there any other emotional problems that you experienced through, through all that?

Anthony: How much time you got now? I'm just, I'm just good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I love her. Shout out to Sarah. Um, yeah, shout out to Sarah and Dr. Andrew. They're, they're a podcast with you is my favorite one.

Joey: They're great. And I know that they love you. They adore you, admire you.

Anthony: They're awesome. Um, so I think like.

Yeah, I think anxiety being the big one and I think, I want to be careful how I say this, but in, in those, you know, in those, in the situation of a family, like the father, like the role of the man, right, is to be the provider and the protector. And so when that, when that is [00:43:00] kind of inverted and you feel like you're protecting yourself from the protector.

That becomes an entirely different situation, and I think it's, like, mentally really hard to wrap your, wrap your head around that. And so, like, um, I think that that is a lot of, like, what I struggled with, is that, like, you know, and there's almost, like, some betrayal there, and some just questioning of, like, oh my gosh, like, like, wait a second, you know what I mean?

This person who is supposed to be protecting me is like, this is like, like, I feel like I'm having to protect people from this person and, um, and so that is like a very vulnerable thing. I think that, you know, definitely struggled a lot with anxiety and, but even I would say a lot of anxiety was kind of centered around like performance of, you know, I'm, you know, having to achieve a certain level to basically to get noticed.

Or to, to be loved and not that, not that my parents ever put me on that. I don't, I don't think that [00:44:00] was ever their intent. And I don't think that they even were, I don't think that was anywhere in their intention. I think it's just like when you're in a tough situation like this. You just think that like, Oh, like I better do something to get noticed and to, to be appreciated.

And so like, I, you know, kind of ended up in a lot of like, you know, sports or academics or things like being like, just driven to this like level of like high achievement. And then like that kind of not being that. Satisfying, you know what I mean? And it's almost like, was like, you know, like anxiety, you know, achieve the result and then it's just like onto the next thing, you know what I mean?

And so like that was, it was, and has been kind of a struggle for me and kind of to disentangle my identity from my performance, um, because those are two entirely different things and don't affect each other.

Joey: That's really good. Like what you do is not who you are. It doesn't measure your value, your worth.

Yeah, that's really good. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more [00:45:00] resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed.

To help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Anthony: And can I say something else about that joke?

Like, I just, uh, and to, to any, you know, I know that this is a highly listened to podcast, that there's a lot of kids, you know, and parents listening to this. And I would just say to them, you know, don't like, don't equate your worth. You know, it's, it's good to be a high achiever. It's good to do the best you can and everything.

Right. But I think it's either, it's somewhere in the wisdom literature to sound, it's like, whatever you do, then do that with all your heart. Which I, I believe wholeheartedly in, but I also think like that you, you know, you are not what you do. You are not your GPA. You are not your batting average. You are not any of those things.

Like you're loved by God [00:46:00] just because who you are, just because you are. And so like in these situations where you're, you know, your parents, your parents love seems very conditional because, you know, you're, you might be, you know, kind of a victim of triangulation. You might be in between, you know, in between those two parents.

But just know that, like, there is a love for you that is not conditional, and that's God's love, right? And that, that's not dependent on what you do, or not dependent on if you do what your parent wants you to do. That is, that is, love is free. And, um, just to, like, when you are, you know, caught in this web of kind of dependent love and people trying to buy love and things like that.

Just try to turn yourself the best you can to the, to the love of God in the way you understand that. And maybe you don't, but maybe, you know, all it really takes is just kind of just closing your eyes and just trying to turn yourself to him and just say like, God, like, I need your love. Let me feel your love.

Joey: Yeah, because if he's all powerful and unknowing, then he's going to be able to hear you in that moment and help you [00:47:00] too. So, no, I know there's a lot there and I know a lot of people do struggle in that relationship with God with me. We can go a little deeper into it in a little bit. But I, um, I think it's a really important point that I think by its very nature, uh, separation and divorce point to like the conditionality of love because it's like, Okay, you're on your wedding day, you're promising your love to be essentially unconditional.

And then, and feel free to disagree with that. And I think there's an importance between like unconditional love and unconditional maybe acceptance. Because we never like loving someone according to the kind of definition from St. Thomas Aquinas is like willing the good of the other, right? And so the question becomes like, what is that good for in the particular situation?

And how do I in my role do that? How do I will that? Love is not letting someone abuse you. That's not love. You could still love them in that moment or not. Maybe that moment's not the right word. And in that situation where like, you're maybe putting a restraining order in place or you're, um, you know, calling the police or whatever that looks like, right.

[00:48:00] That's actually might be doing what's best for them, but it's not allowing like any. Sort of behavior so I think that's kind of an important like side note when we talk about love because some people maybe think of love It's like accepting like any sort of behavior, but I think there is this like underlying message that like love is very fragile Love is very conditional love can end at any moment when you see your parents love shatter before you even if there were like decent Reasons for it for their togetherness to be like paused or separated.

Does that make sense?

Anthony: It makes total sense. Yeah. And I, I actually, I think that was kind of trying to articulate that before and I did a poor job and I think you did way better just, um, yeah, just this sense of love being kind of finite and kind of, you know, performance based, you know what I mean? Cause when you see your parents getting divorced.

Because, you know, one of them is behaving in a certain way, you start to think like, Oh, well, you know, if I am the best version of myself, am I going to essentially, you know, is somebody going to divorce me from love? You know, am I going to be [00:49:00] unlovable? And, um, and I think that's. I think all of us struggle with that to some degree, but especially kids, kids in this situation, because you're, you know, you see it crumble before your eyes.

And so it's hard, like, I know personally in my own life, you know, that, that unconditional love that I just spoke about, it has been very hard to accept God's unconditional love. Because, you know, it was not my experience of, And, um, so that's, that's a struggle. And so I think you really highlight something very true is because, you know, we experienced, we witnessed this kind of, what we understand is love or what we see is supposed to be love, like within a family, and then that ends.

or that is broken down, then we think, like, you know, we experience love as finite, or we experience it being cut off based on your, like, someone's failings, essentially. So then we are, you know, essentially, like, we feel that love is going to be taken away from us at any moment.

Joey: Yeah. And I mean, it makes it really hard to love in any relationship, including your [00:50:00] relationship with God, but also friendships, romantic relationships, like go down the whole list.

So let's go there for a little bit. Um, the relationship with God, I'm curious, kind of the particular struggles there for you, you mentioned them a little bit, but if you'd go deeper and then kind of, how did you work through that?

Anthony: Um, I'm still working through it, but you know, um, I think like trying to, you know, like my focus is trying to accept.

That unconditional love and to know that like, it's there. I didn't do anything to earn it and I can't do anything to lose it. Right? Like, I'm going to say that again. Like it's there. It's always been there for me. I didn't earn it. I can't earn it. And I, but that also means I can't lose it. And so I, I think that's like both beautiful and hard to accept for someone kind of, you know, who comes from a broken family because you're like, wait, love is conditional.

Like I always had to do things to get love, you know? So I think that is one thing. And I also think that kind of, you know, so accepting that love has been difficult. You know, one thing I've been kind of realizing is that [00:51:00] essentially in life, life is comes down to like what identity you accept. And there's this identity we all have from God, you know, from either as either like a son or a daughter and that is loved unconditionally by him.

And then there's these false identities that are, you know, pushed by the world or the devil or whoever you want to attribute it to, you know, I think it's essentially, you know, the devil through the world, but we are given these like lies about ourselves and one of, you know, one of your guests. Dr. Bob Schutz talks about this a lot, like, you know, these lies, like, kind of entrap themselves deep in our hearts, and then we kind of live out of this lie about ourselves and about our identity.

And I think, like, essentially what life comes down to is, like, which identity you choose to live out of, you know, either the true identity or the false identity or the lie. Um, I know one struggle for me has been A, to, like, accept that identity from God, and then B, to live out of that. And, um, you know, I think, you know, [00:52:00] You know, if you look at our world, you kind of just see, you know, a bunch of people struggling with identity and looking into all these different areas to try to find it and try to, you know, or in some cases craft it or change it or, you know, with surgery or whatever, what have you.

But like, essentially what we have is, you know, we have an identity from God that is not dependent on anything that we do. You know, it's just essentially like. Unconditional love. And that is the one we are all thirsting for, but in a certain sense is the hardest one to live into because it requires the most detachment from the lies that we have been told.

Yeah.

Joey: No, there's a lot there to unpack. I think it's hard to like figure that out all on your own. And I know we're going to get into kind of ways in which you've sought help, but I think it's like really important to like seek help for that from a mentor, maybe a therapist, spiritual director. Someone like that because I think that's one of the things I'm definitely no like academic when it comes to like identity So I can't say fully understand all of it But I think one truth is that your [00:53:00] identity is not something that you necessarily like create on your own It's like something that's given to you Um, you can think of a child like receiving a name from a parent, right?

Like they're literally in a very real way infusing an identity on you. And so I think like in a similar way Maybe there's some instances where we can kind of like create our own identity or like reach or discover an identity, but I think it's always in relationship with like another person that we do that.

And I think that's a really important component. Cause I think if you're just like sitting there kind of twiddling your thumbs being like, you know, I'm loved, I'm loved, I'm loved, or like whatever other kind of characteristic of your identity that you're trying to like fully like accept or embody, I think you can, it can be quite fruitless in my opinion.

If you don't like experience it on like almost like a, maybe bodily level isn't. The right term, but like in real life, tangible, tangible, not just in your head. Cause like you hear all these people in like the self help, like personal development space, you're like all into like these affirmations or like, you know, they look in the mirror and they tell themselves things and maybe there's a point to it.

I've never done all that stuff, but it's almost like

Anthony: [00:54:00] Superman pose in the bathroom,

Joey: but there's like two things to it. Like, it's like, one, is there any evidence to back up? what you're saying, that's really important, because otherwise you're like, kind of delusional and fooling yourself. Um, and two, you know, is there, like, I think it's better for someone else to say that stuff to you than you to say it to yourself.

And maybe there's not someone in your life who can say that, and so you need to, you know, kind of remind yourself of it, or maybe other people have said it, so you're reminding yourself of what they have said. So I think there can be some merit to it, but I think, yeah, I think it's really important to have that, like, other person who's kind of, you know, Somewhat infusing or imparting your identity.

That's why I'm such a big fan of like mentors. I think that's like, so, so helpful and fruitful.

Anthony: Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's a very good point. You know, we're made for relationship and that is, that is important and it kind of plays into, you know, some of these relationships have given us these.

you know, probably a combination of truth and lies about ourselves, about our identity. And so it's kind of, I think as an adult, it's kind of like choosing the relationships and [00:55:00] also choosing to like, try to, you know, engage in the relationships, which help you to live into the true identity of yourself, you know?

And so one of those relationships would be, you know, with God and trying to say, okay, like God. You know, there was this really holy priest I know, and he used to say when he was giving people, his name was Father Bernard Geiger, he died this past year, but he used to tell people to pray this prayer, and it was very simple, and he would give it at the end of confession.

He would say, when you're doing your penance after confession, he would say, ask God, God, who are you and who am I? You know, it's a question of identity, and so, like, when you start in his, what he was saying is that, when you start to understand who God is. Then you take on a different identity yourself because that God's identity affects your identity.

And so when you understand who God is and how much he loves you, that is going to help you answer the question of, you know, God, who are you and who am I? That is going to help you answer the question of who am I.

Joey: Dang, that's good. [00:56:00] I like that. You mentioned before like watching your siblings struggle has been the hardest thing.

I'm curious what you meant by that and if there are any particular like instances where that was kind of Maybe grueling or kind of hit you in the face.

Anthony: Yeah. Um, I mean a lot. Um, but yeah, just kind of seeing how, you know, I kind of, you know, being the oldest and being in the position I thought I was, you know, I was in a, you know, kind of in a sibling plus position, maybe you would call it like I felt like in a, you know, I don't think it was healthy in a lot of ways, but I think I was in this kind of position of like a sibling parent.

And so to see, you know, all of us. struggle of you guys, I should say struggle with the divorce. That was, that was very difficult. And then also, you know, to feel that I couldn't help it, you know, I think because of how the divorce affected me so deeply, I felt that I couldn't be what I needed to be to the rest of the family and that, you know, and I felt kind of in that time, like I wasn't what I needed to be [00:57:00] for all you guys.

And that, so that was probably the hardest part of all that for me is I wish that I could like just, you know, take away all that pain and to accept that I couldn't, um, was like really, really awful, you know, and I honestly, I still struggle with that. You know, not that I should have been able to prevent it, but I just, I wish that it affected me less.

And so then I was able to help more, you know?

Joey: Yeah, no, I hear you. I definitely felt that. And it's humbling to see like your own limits, especially when you're trying to like love and help other people. And I definitely had many. situations like you described where I wish I could have done the same for you and for our siblings.

Yeah, it's just such a sucky situation to go through. And for the parents too, just to make sure I'm not like, yeah, we, we don't like, we have a heart for our parents for sure. We love them dearly. And yeah, even if there's struggles or even if there's things there that, you know, make the relationships challenging at times, every relationship has their challenges certainly.

But um, yeah, it's, it's just a hard [00:58:00] thing for anyone and all of us to go through. So, but yeah, but I think in a particular way, the children. Cause so often they get ignored or the pain is not even like acknowledged, um, very rarely understood and given like the space that it deserves, which is what we're trying to do here.

But yeah, that, uh, I definitely can relate to it, but yeah. Any thoughts?

Anthony: Yeah, no, I've often thought that like in a divorce, particularly. That to some degree, like, you know, like there's a saying, you know, essentially like you were referencing earlier with the lose, lose, but in a divorce, like, I think that nobody really wins in a divorce, but just to a certain degree, the parents get some change and sometimes it is good change.

I, I do believe in the case of our parents, it was good change. In fact, for both of them, like, that's my personal perspective. Um, but. I think particularly, even though that is the case, I just think it's rare that it's better for the kids. Like, I think it's kind of the kids are particularly in a lose lose situation.

And, um, so I think that, that's [00:59:00] like very difficult as a child. It's cause, you know, we mentioned a lot of these situations where you're kind of a rock in a hard place. And that leads to this, like, I think one of the worst feelings you can feel as a human is helplessness, you know, and I think it leads to a lot of helplessness as a child.

Joey: I'd agree. I'd agree with that. Yeah. You don't quite know what to do with it. I want to get into like that, maybe happier, the better part of the story. But before we do, I'm curious if there were anything you wanted to add in terms of like struggles with bad habits or relationship struggles, especially. in romantic relationships.

I know there's probably a ton that we can say here, but yeah, just curious if there's anything you want to highlight.

Anthony: Yeah. Um, I, I definitely think, you know, I, um, you know, I've struggled with a lot of things. Um, but you know, I mentioned some of those before. Um, I think, you know, loss is one thing I struggle with because I, I think like in a lot of these situations.

You know, we're looking for escape and, you know, lust offers the allure of that escape. Um, but it's, you know, essentially it's at its core, it's a [01:00:00] lie and it leaves you, you know, and the interesting thing, I saw a quote from St. Josemaría Escriva and he said, you know, after essentially like, You know, essentially after like giving into lust or sensual pleasure, like what loneliness after?

And it's so true that it's like, if you think of your life and you think of a time that you gave into lust or use it as like a medication, like try to think of a time when you felt happier after. And the truth is you won't because you weren't. And so I think that, you know, that has been something I think that a lot of people in general struggle with, but a lot of people in these situations.

But I would just encourage anyone struggling with that, that just know it's not, it's not your identity and it's also not, you know, it's not, um, it's not a cure and it's not helping you. It's just like making you more lonely. And I, so that's what I would say to like, um, the question of struggles and then to the question of like relationships.

I, I do think that it has definitely affected me a lot in, um, my romantic relationships and, you know, I'm, I'm 35, I'm unmarried and I think that's, [01:01:00] It's definitely part of the equation. Um, I think when you, you know, for me, like seeing, like seeing all that we have that we've mentioned in this podcast, it's, it's hard to like really kind of like, or it has been hard for me to really want to like commit to love and commit to opening yourself so much to another person that, um, you show them your flaws and you show them what's broken in you, um, because you also have seen.

You know the the negative effects of that and so so that has been very a struggle for me I'm trying i'm still trying to work through it still trying to essentially, you know Help god or let god help me through it. Um, and so that's definitely been a struggle and I think it is for You know, I see that trend in a lot of people who've been in similar situations.

Joey: No, thanks for sharing all that. And yeah, just one note on the whole last thing. I, uh, this, you guys have probably heard me talk about this in the show before, but Dr. Patrick Carnes is an expert on sexual compulsion, addiction, and He found that 89 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction [01:02:00] come from a broken family with what he called a disengaged family.

89 percent almost 90%, which is so wild. So I think it is such a common thing on that note. We do have a, I just want to give a plug for, we do have a podcast series on that topic. It's called healing sexual brokenness. We'll link to that in the show notes. Definitely encourage you guys. So check it out if you're in any of the podcast apps, if you go to our show and you just search healing, sexual brokenness, you'll find that there too.

But, um, it's such a big problem. I think all of us at some level or the majority of us have dealt with it. And so, um, yeah, thanks for bringing that up kind of switching gears a little bit and getting toward the end of our show. I'm curious, kind of when did you decide to ask for help and what did that look like?

Anthony: It took a lot of different forms. Um, you know, I, I've done different things in my life, like spiritual direction. Um, I've done some counseling. I've done some. trauma therapy. And then I've done other things that are kind of, you know, less traditional. Um, I did, so one thing that has helped me a lot, actually, maybe the most has been something called functional [01:03:00] neurology.

Essentially it's a treatment for like brain injuries. And so a lot of people who struggle with anxiety, even in a lot of addictions. Or excuse me, well, it's certainly addiction, but a lot of definitions for certain, you know, mental illnesses or certain things carries the designation that, oh, this is often, this is, this often ensues after a head injury.

So, so something I kind of in a just synopsis, I had a lot of head injuries, a lot of concussions. And, um, I, and I tried a lot through sports. Yeah, through sports, car accidents, things like that. And I tried a lot of different things. And, um, I, you know, through a friend, I ended up trying this thing called functional neurology, which is 0%, like has anything to do with counseling.

It's just essentially. Physical therapy for your brain. And I found that like emotionally and like physically for me, that has had the greatest effect in terms of like, you know, helping me improve, you know, how I felt and how I [01:04:00] behaved and things like that. And so like I would, I would encourage anybody, um, who, you know, there's providers all across America, but I think oftentimes we take all this.

And we think, okay, if I go in a room and I sit with somebody and I talk about it, it will change. And, and certain therapy is great. And I've had a lot of great experiences with therapy. I've also had a lot of terrible experiences with therapy. And I think a lot of people would echo that. So I think like there is this element of, you know, that therapy can fix everything.

In our, in our time, you know, like you hear all these commercials for better health and all these things. And where I think it's like very important, it's not the only thing. And so like, we are, you know, we are mind, body and soul. And, you know, the mind is, is just one of those. So, you know, you can use the body and fix the body and try to, or I should say, try to heal the body.

And so that has been something that is like, really helped me. Physical activity has really helped me, you know, working out is kind of a great way [01:05:00] to get unstuck. Doing some cardio, things like that are really good to kind of, you know, help yourself move along in life and get past some of these things that have become hurdles in your life, in my opinion.

I also, you know, I dealt with a really good trauma therapist, Margaret Vasquez. So I know you've had on the show and, um, you know, she does trauma therapy and that, that was, that was very helpful for me. So things like that, um, I think are good things. And I also think this. You know, it's, it's not a one size fits all for everybody, everybody, you know, just because something worked for someone else, it won't necessarily work for you.

And I think that it's important to kind of, you know, get to know yourself, you know, your struggles and kind of, um, in a patient way, you know, work on improving yourself. And essentially, I think that's what, you know, brings peace. And it's important to not have the attitude of like, I'm going to fix myself.

But I think it's the attitude of I'm going to open myself up so that God can heal [01:06:00] me. Cause you're, you're not a, you're not a machine to be fixed. You're a person to be loved.

Joey: Totally. And yeah, I think that that's a really good distinction about like how we're not machines. I. I can't say I fully understand it, but I've heard it said that, like, we don't actually solve our problems, we outgrow them.

And I, again, I don't totally, fully understand that, but, um, but I think there's a lot of truth to it, how, you know, when, yeah, whether it's, like, even a physical injury or something, um, we maybe don't go in and, like, fix the muscle tissue necessarily, maybe there's some instances where you do that, but you kind of, like, Build up the muscle around it and try to get like your body in a healthier space to where like you're better and healthier.

And that kind of like resolves the issue, but it's not necessarily like, yeah, just tighten this bolt and we're all done. That's not how we work. So I don't know. Yeah. I have to give that more thought, but I heard that said, and I think there's some truth to it. I'm curious how, um. If there are any other like tools or tactics, books, podcasts, anything else, events that you have made use of that have been maybe the most helpful in your own healing [01:07:00] journey of becoming like a better, stronger you.

Anthony: Yeah, a lot of things. Um, one thing I'm trying to think, um, I, I really liked Dr. Jordan Peterson. I think he has a lot of good things to say. So he has a lot of, you know, videos on YouTube shorts. You mentioned Sarah Swofford. Um, she's, she's kind of helped me a lot. And she has, uh, she has a bunch, I feel like her talks are pretty wide ranging, but she has a book called emotional virtue.

Which is good. So those are just a few resources that that are helpful. I also think there's a um, I'm kind of fascinated by the connect, you know, the mind body connection, you know, like we're we're not just our mind We're not just our body. We're the Unity and duality as it, you know, they say in philosophy.

And so I think it's interesting how, you know, you can like the body really affects, you know, the mind and the soul and vice versa. And so like, like for instance, one thing, you know, I, you know, I had a very, uh, hard winter. I was in an accident and, um, with my sister [01:08:00] who, and we were both hurt pretty badly.

And so. I was, you know, not feeling the greatest at all. And this one thing I found by this doctor, by Dr. Andrew Huberman, his name is, he's a neuroscientist from, from Stanford. He has this tip, you know, he kind of has his morning routine out there, but he has this tip of like getting into morning sunlight within half an hour of when you wake up every day.

And so for Lent last year, I did that every day. And it really helped like how I felt. Um, and it kind of was what I needed at that time. So I think looking for little things and trying little things like that that are going to help you is like, is really important. And I also think like one thing that I've noticed in my life is something might help for a while and then it might stop helping.

And that doesn't mean you're not doing it right. It just, you might've done all you can in that area. So don't just kind of like try to do it better or more perfect. If you've kind of exhausted it, just you, it could mean that it's time to try something else.

Joey: Totally. No, that's great advice. And, um, I love that connection you're making between like the [01:09:00] body and your emotions.

Cause on so many levels, like, yeah, your, your emotions like happen inside your body. And so there's certainly a connection there. It's not just like this random thing that happens like in your mind or some imaginary place. It's like very much so like a bodily based thing, especially anxiety. And, um, you certainly, you can feel it in your chest and your throat.

Like it's certainly like, there's certainly a connection there. I've found similar benefits. It seems like the kind of healthier and the more fit I get. Get the more calm and peaceful I am. And so I think there's something to be said about that, which I know it's can be hard for people to get started there, but if you can figure out some sort form of exercise that you really enjoy, that you kind of look forward to doing that could help you.

And it doesn't need to be complex, it can be simple. Um, that can really help you get in. You know, much better head space and if you even feel better emotionally, not just like physically, if you like me come from a broken family, you've probably experienced a lot of difficult emotions and it's easy to deal with them in unhealthy ways.

But one healthy habit that's helped me working out consistently and eating how my body was made to be fed. It keeps my buddy healthy. And the [01:10:00] endorphins helped me feel happier and better navigate tough emotions. But I know it's not easy to start exercising or to be more consistent with it. You might be thinking, I don't know what I'm doing.

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Anthony: Yeah, and here, you know, that's a great point, Joe. And like, and a really good, honestly, one of the best things and a really good place to [01:11:00] start is something that most people can do.

And it's just something that's very regulating. And Margaret Vespa has taught me this is just taking a long walk and just kind of, you know, just letting your thoughts. Um, wander and just like process what's going on within your life. And the act of walking, you know, you're using your whole body, you're using essentially kind of all your senses.

You are, it's very integrating for your body, and there's been so many times in the last couple years. Where I feel like very kind of frustrated or aggravated, very emotional. And I go for a long walk and I, and I'm talking like usually like half an hour to like an hour and by the end of it, I come home and I feel in a certain sense, like I worked out a lot of what was bothering me.

And, um, and I think it's because, you know, because you're moving, you're using your whole body and it's also giving your mind a chance to essentially like kind of run through or walk through everything that's going on.

Joey: That's really good. A similar process from my understanding of like [01:12:00] neurobiology happens when we sleep.

Like our brains kind of like process things and like file them away. Um, kind of like if you've seen the movie inside out, like that's essentially what happens when we sleep. Um, like our memories are being like filed away and long term memory and things like that. I don't understand all the ins and outs of the science, but that I I've heard.

Yeah. It's been helpful for me to walking and kind of like moving your body. Cause I think, especially today, like in years past, like we were so active as like, as humans, now we're just so sedimentary, like we just sit around computers and. And I think it's having like really detrimental effects on so many levels.

So I love that. I love what you said. And no, I think that just like this whole body based thing is like kind of that, that whole quote, um, get out, you know, like mind over matter. You've heard people say mind over matter. I've heard people say like body over mind. Where like, if you kind of like get outside of your mind and into your body, like there's something really good there that it's actually helpful in healing.

And that's like something, especially in moments where I've been the most anxious or even like sad or depressed, like that is incredibly helpful in healing. The other thing I was going to mention there too, is just [01:13:00] how I've been learning this more and more, whether it's through from guys like Huberman or others, um, like Dr.

Peter Attia, or I was recently watching this, um, series on Disney plus called Limitless. It's with Chris Hemsworth and. He has all these hacks, um, health experts, um, like Dr. Peter Atiyah, um, on the show kind of talking about like health and wellbeing. And one of the things I've learned from them is like this sleep is literally the foundation of health.

Like it's literally the foundation of all health. Like the other things are so sleep is like everything. More or less, and then you have like nutrition, and then you, which includes like drinking water, and eating like clean healthy foods, and then you have exercise. So like exercise is like super super helpful, and I'm a big proponent of it, but like we need to make sure we're getting those other two things right, especially sleep.

So if there's only one thing you can get right right now, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm overwhelmed, I can't do everything, try to get your sleep down. And that's going to help you. And you might need to exercise or like healthy eating to do that, which is, it's all, it all works together.

But I think there's some to be said like of that being like the focal point. Cause once you get that right, [01:14:00] your body and your brain can actually like heal itself, and then you can get into this better spot emotionally, and then you'll be able to, you know, maybe even further hone in like your diet, like what you're eating and the quality of what you're eating.

And then from there, if you get those things dialed in and you add exercise, that's like the golden combo. So that's just wanted to throw that out. Cause it's been helpful for me in case that's helpful for anyone listening.

Anthony: Yeah. And I would just add to that, that it's kind of, um, like a snowball effect, or it has kind of an avalanche effect that once you start doing a little bit in one area, you know, it, um, it produces the dopamine that your body is looking for.

And, you know, essentially you want more dopamine, you go back to it and you get healthier and healthier. And so I think that is, it's like a very healthy process. So, so like sometimes all it just takes is just going to the gym once or going on a walk or going on a run or just. playing a sport, just doing something to move your body and then just trying to stack those days on top of each other.

And eventually you're going to feel a lot healthier. Like no one, have you ever had anybody heard anybody say like, man, I really wish I didn't go to the gym today. Like, no, you [01:15:00] had like, you haven't. And, and I think, and there's a reason for that.

Joey: That's really good. Let's talk a little bit about therapy. So I know you have some thoughts and.

opinions on therapy. So I wanted to make sure we spent a little bit of time talking about that. So you mentioned that you found help through therapy, especially trauma therapy in particular, but, um, yeah, what, what's maybe some of the nuance and any guidance for anyone listening on this topic as well?

Anthony: Um, I, yeah, so I, I have a lot to say about this, but I'll try to keep it short.

I think a couple of things, I think one important thing is fit, um, with you and a therapist. I think another thing is. It's not kind of that the goal of therapy is to help your life and it's not to like center your life around the therapy Which is something I've kind of struggled with and then I also think that I think that essentially a good therapist is someone who's gonna Help you and is going to like refuse to like make decisions for you Or refuse to kind of, for lack of a better term, like kind of boss you around too much.

You know, um, I think [01:16:00] that especially as an adult, like you, you want someone who's going to empower you more to like, to, to live your own life and live it all. So I've, I've had, honestly, I've had kind of like a, almost like a 50, 50 spread of good experiences. and bad experiences. So some people have been very helpful, some people have been almost, like, hurtful.

But I think it's important to talk to somebody. So try it. If that person doesn't work, well, you can try another person. You know what I mean? Or try a different type of therapist or a different type of person to talk to. I also think, like, you know, having other people who you're not paying to talk to is helpful, and who you trust, and who know you.

Because I think a lot of times the struggle for therapists is like, you know, They, they've talked to you a couple of times. They don't really know you. And, you know, it's important to have a balance of that and people who know you and have seen you, you know, grow up or, or know your life and know who you are.

Um, and sometimes they can better advise you on what you need to do. But I, and I'm not, like, I don't mean to say this to dissuade therapy, but I. I [01:17:00] mean to say that it's one tool in, in a, you know, a whole tool belt of different tools. And so I think sometimes there's too much emphasis given on it. Um, and, and in particular, the, you know, there's this therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, which is essentially like the idea that if you think differently, you change your life.

And that is true. If you think differently, you do change your life. However, most of us think a certain way for a reason, and it's not just a matter, or as simple always as just changing our thoughts. So sometimes we have to change our behavior. And actually, like, so I've heard it said that the easiest way to change behavior is to change identity.

And so that goes back to what we were saying earlier, like, living into, like, your true identity, as, you know, a child of God, and as someone who's loved unconditionally, can really help you change your behavior. More than anything.

Joey: That's really good. You made me think of something Dr. Greg Bitaro said in a recent episode.

He was talking about how just kind of this whole day of like talk therapy is not enough. And I forget [01:18:00] exactly what, what words he put to that. But he did talk about like the role of our subconscious and the like kind of lame person understanding that I have of it is that the way that we think, the way that we act, the way that we feel is a byproduct of like what's in our subconscious.

So, like, that's essentially controlling our life, and there's a quote from, uh, this Swiss psychologist that we talked about in that episode who said something along the lines of, like, Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life, and you will call it fate. And so, basically, the idea is that, like, that Like you're saying, I don't think, like, changing the way you think isn't as easy as it sounds.

That's the whole point I'm making, because what happens in life is, like, we go through these experiences, we kind of sustain these wounds, and they get lodged in our subconscious, like, below our conscious minds, the thing that we're, like, actively thinking about. And then they, those things, kind of like the mass below the tip of an iceberg, are there influencing the way, again, we think, the way we feel, the way we act.

And so, if we are just [01:19:00] staying on the level of, like, our, you know, trying to think differently on a conscious level, and we never go, kind of, into that mucky water of, like, the subconscious, and, like, figure out, like, well, why do we Think and feel that way. Or, you know, is there like trauma there? That's literally affecting us on a physiological level.

That's maybe preventing us from thinking and feeling in a different way. Then we're always going to be stuck in it. That's, that's my perspective. And so John Paul II actually in love and responsibility to everyone familiar, John Paul II, um, wrote this book when he was, uh, like a priest, a professor called love and responsibility on like relationships and sexual, like morality, things like that.

And he. Um, in the end of that book, Dr. Bitaro was teaching me that he had like this whole part about the subconscious because around that time when he was writing it, Sigmund Freud was very popular. And so Freud like really emphasized like the role of the subconscious. So JP2 actually took that and he kind of emphasized how, no, like we need to kind of take what's in the subconscious out, objectivize it, meaning like we need to inspect it and look at it and understand it in order to [01:20:00] be able to act, think, and feel differently.

Putting some of my own words to that. But, um, but I thought that was interesting. I haven't read Love and Responsibility cover to cover. I've read parts of it, but do you recall that from reading it? And, uh, any further thoughts? I

Anthony: actually, I don't recall that, but it sounds, it sounds very interesting. I want to go back and read it now.

Joey: Yeah. And I don't know the pages or else I would have said it, but I think it's towards the end and I was talking to Jackie about it and it was, um, found. So you can do that if you'd like. So, um, yeah, any final thoughts on that? And then the other question I had for you was just, yeah, I guess after kind of going through this process of like healing and growth, if, uh, yeah, how your life might look differently now, just in order to encourage people to push through the pain and the discomfort that often hits you in the face when you're trying to heal and to grow and to.

Be better, stronger. So I'm just curious if you have, um, yeah, just if you would kind of contrast how life was and how it is now, though, we're always a work in progress.

Anthony: We love comfort to a large degree. Right. And part of us, you know, is like our brain's [01:21:00] job is to keep us safe.

Yeah.

Anthony: And so a lot of times that our brain tells us is, you know, don't do anything scary or different or change or, you know, or change anything.

And that is the temptation for those of us. who have really been, you know, in, in these difficult situations because, you know, we, you know, change is scary and change has, you know, been very hard in our lives. But I would just encourage you to, you know, A, to go at your own pace, B, to seek ways to heal yourself because, or seek ways to, you know, dispose yourself to healing because, you know, we were made, we were made to be healed.

You know, I, I think a lot of our, Like our intuition is that you know, this is like I can be healed here I need to be healed here and I heard one of my favorite priests father James serby is a really good podcast called holiness for the working day And he said that you know in jesus time he did he performed a lot of healing [01:22:00] Because you know back then they didn't have a lot of physical healing.

He did a lot of physical healing He said but now we're pretty good at physical healing. So what we really need is, you know, spiritual healing, emotional healing and, and Jesus want, he wants to heal us, right? Like he wants that for us. He wants us, you know, he said in the gospel of John, I came that you might have life and have it abundantly.

You know, he didn't say I came that you might suffer and, you know, stumble through life and then, you know, die. He wants us to have abundant life. So I think like having the courage to see past your circumstances and to try to, um, Try to, you know, get better is important. I would also say that, you know, healing, and this is something I've had to learn the hard way.

I, I thought healing was kind of a destination and you get there and you're done and you kind of check the box and you put the file away and then you live the rest of your life.

Hmm.

Anthony: Um, . But I've learned that healing is a process and you know, you're gonna be on that journey the rest of your life. [01:23:00] But I think it is, you know, I think it is a process that is worth, worth endeavoring in.

Joey: Good stuff. Two final questions. If you could speak honestly to mom and dad, I'm curious, like, what would you say? And to whatever degree you're comfortable talking about that?

Anthony: Oh, wow. Best for last. Um, um, wow. Okay. So yeah, I think that, you know, I heard this quote recently and it's really stuck with me and it's that we're mad at our parents because their parents messed them up and then they messed us up, you know what I mean?

And it, and it's kind of like, I think that's like a pretty revealing quote. Because I know, you know, you think very often, you know, and now you're a father, so maybe you can speak more to this, but you think very often, if I were a parent, I'd do it this way, if I were a parent, I'd do it this way, if I were a parent, like when I'm a parent, I'm going to be perfect, or I'm not going to do all these things that my parents have done to mess me up.

But then, you know, as you get older in life, you realize that that's not really the reality and that a lot of, you know, our parents. You know, I would say to mom and dad, I know [01:24:00] they both went through a lot and I think that that is um, That that was very difficult for them And and I think that a lot of like what we've been through or they put us through as a result of that So, you know in in a large sense It's not their fault.

You know what I mean? So I would just tell them both that I love them and I'm thankful for them and for the love They have given me because they they have given me a lot of things and and they have loved me both of them And so like I would say thank you for that. And I think in the end, I hope that they heal as well as me You know,

I love that.

Joey: Well, thank you for coming on for going so long. I'm sorry this went so long, but you have a lot of wisdom that I wanted to make sure everyone was able to benefit from. And yeah, thank you so much for, um, just sharing so vulnerably and again, imparting all that wisdom. I just want to give you the final word.

You kind of went through some of this already, but I just want to give you one last chance. What advice or encouragement would you offer to maybe the younger you who's listening right now?

Anthony: I would just say to my younger self that I would say that, you know, you're, you're going to go through some difficult [01:25:00] things.

It's going to be very hard, but, you know, you're going to make it and it's going to be okay. I think that, you know, we've highlighted a lot of things that, you know, have gone wrong or have been hard, but we also maybe haven't mentioned, you know, that we're both here and we're both doing okay. And, you know, we're making it, you know, and things aren't perfect, nor are we perfect, but we're making it.

And so, so I would just encourage, um, you know, that younger self to not define itself by the lies. You know, that seep in from the world or from different moons. And I would also tell that younger self that, you know, to seek healing and to seek the truth and, you know, it's okay, it's okay to struggle. Like, I think it's okay to struggle and that.

You know, God, you know, one of the scripture verses that I hold to is God works all things to good for those who love him. And, um, and one of my favorite books, St. Augustine says, even their sins, you know, so God is using everything for our good, even our mistakes. And [01:26:00] so, you know, if essentially I think what life comes down to is just abandoning ourselves to God and letting him kind of scoop us up and essentially take us.

Take us where we need to go. And so, so I don't, I would also say, you know, that in, in different things that I'm proposing is like, I do not have it all figured out. I am very much, to be honest, I almost didn't even want to come on this podcast because I, I felt like a little bit of a hypocrite. I'm like, you know, I don't have this all figured out.

How can I go on and talk about my life or tell other people like this is how you should do it. But I, I guess what I would say. Say is that like, you know, maybe the importance is not like in the destination, but it's more like in the struggle to get there in the journey to get there. And I think that's what, in that way, we help other people, we help ourselves.

And I think God sees that struggle in us. And he is pleased with that.

Joey: A few final thoughts due to the time limit and the nature of this podcast. We didn't really get a chance to talk about the good things [01:27:00] about our family. And there's plenty to say. Uh, one thing I would say is all of us siblings are actually pretty close to each other.

Uh, we say as close as our lives will allow. We have good relationships and we love our siblings, Anthony and I, I know. I can speak for him saying that we really love our siblings. And personally, they're just a huge motivation for me for doing this podcast and the work that we do at restored. And although there have been struggles over the years with our parents, we really love our parents and we appreciate all that they've sacrificed for us.

Uh, for example, my mom has always just fought really hard for us to be physically healthy from a young age, even when it, when it wasn't. And then my dad always worked really hard for us to provide. And he really gave us a great example of a hard work ethic, which I totally see in all of my siblings. And that's just to mention a few definitely grateful for my parents.

And although in our story has some sad and heavy parts, there's a lot of good to it as well. If you want to contact Anthony, just see the show notes for his email. He's open to that. And lastly, we really hope that this conversation acted as somewhat of an experiment or maybe a template for how you might talk with your siblings about your parents [01:28:00] divorce or family dysfunction.

You could even send this episode to your sibling or siblings and invite them to listen and perhaps discuss it with you next time you guys see each other. And if you don't have siblings, you could always do this with a close friend, or maybe if you have a good relationship with one or both of your parents, you could do it with them as well.

Just an idea that we wanted to throw out to you. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow an Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app you use. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. That also helps listeners find the podcast. And we definitely appreciate that feedback. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.